Bush admin: Torture ban doesn't apply to Gitmo

Drocket

Drocket

CAGiversary!
Bush administration lawyers, fighting a claim of torture by a Guantanamo Bay detainee, yesterday argued that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.
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You know what? I'm now officially no longer proud to be an American. This is something that's been building for a while now, but this... This is just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I've always been proud to be an American. I spent my childhood believing that my country could do no wrong. That was rather naive, I know - we've had dark periods in American history before, but I always believed strongly that we'd grown through them and learned from them and had become a better country for it. We were the leaders of the free world, defenders of justice. We helped those who needed helped. We fought for what was right. Or at least I believed at the time we did.

The past several years, though, have just been a constant picking at everything I ever believed good about our country. Every single thing worth feeling proud about in our country has either been ripped down or shown to be a hollow facade. We no longer believe in freedom of speech. We no longer believe in justice. We no longer believe in human rights.

I'm not giving up on our country - I still love it. Its my country: I've always loved it, and I always will. I'm just no longer proud of it. Its like a family member who winds up becoming a drug addict - you still love them, even during the times when you don't want to admit that you even know them.

And so I would just like to take this opportunity to say to all of you who have supported and defended the shit the Bush administration has pulled: fuck you. Its my country too, and I'm taking it back.
 
Al Queda is laughing with victory at our weakness as americans and our historical precedent of taking millitary action and then folding in on ourselves on our soft, liberal underbelly.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Al Queda is laughing with victory at our weakness as americans and our historical precedent of taking millitary action and then folding in on ourselves on our soft, liberal underbelly.[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='bmulligan']Al Queda is laughing with victory at our weakness as americans and our historical precedent of taking millitary action and then folding in on ourselves on our soft, liberal underbelly.[/QUOTE]

It takes strength to do act morally, bmulligan, and defend ourselves without descending to the level of our enemies.

Torture is a sign of weakness. It rarely produces usable data, but always allows our enemies to paint us as brutes and barbarians to the Islamic and Arabic people whose hearts and minds we're trying to win.

I think back to World War II, where we faced less vigorous German resistance than the Russians did on their front. Why? Because the Germans knew they'd face hell and likely death in Russian POW camps, so they would fight to the last man. With us, they knew they would be treated humanely if captured, which made the prospect of surrender more attractive. In the end, that "weakness" of not brutalizing our enemy saved American lives.
 
[quote name='Drocket']You know what? I'm now officially no longer proud to be an American. This is something that's been building for a while now, but this... This is just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I've always been proud to be an American. I spent my childhood believing that my country could do no wrong. That was rather naive, I know - we've had dark periods in American history before, but I always believed strongly that we'd grown through them and learned from them and had become a better country for it. We were the leaders of the free world, defenders of justice. We helped those who needed helped. We fought for what was right. Or at least I believed at the time we did.
[/quote]

For me there was never a myth to shatter, and I've never really been proud of things I had no choice in.

I long ago adopted the "I like the principles of the country, but not the government" line of reasoning. So we could have another My Lai in Iraq and the government could come out and praise it as a victory for democracy, and that still wouldn't effect the principles of the country, only the government in my mind. If Gore had one these things likely wouldn't be going on, and yet he'd still be in charge of the same country.

I've always viewed the u.s. as one country among many, not the absolute greatest among nations. And no one ever tried to teach me that the government was always doing what's best, that police were always good/right, etc. when I was a little kid.

Though I've always had a thing for other countries. As a little kid I used to love going into canada. It was usually just Magog, a small city in southern Quebec, just north of the border with vermont (my father has a house in vermont). It wasn't so much the city, I just liked the idea of being in another country.
 
Can I beat the "president"?

Seems to be all the old laws of this country have gone down the drain.
 
[quote name='dennis_t']It takes strength to do act morally, bmulligan, and defend ourselves without descending to the level of our enemies.

Torture is a sign of weakness. It rarely produces usable data, but always allows our enemies to paint us as brutes and barbarians to the Islamic and Arabic people whose hearts and minds we're trying to win.[/quote]

Yes, unlike the humane treatment of the severed heads that roll in muslim circles, we are barbarians to force feed a prisoner, provide him with a working toilet, koran, 3 meals a day, and an exercise yard.


I think back to World War II, where we faced less vigorous German resistance than the Russians did on their front. Why? Because the Germans knew they'd face hell and likely death in Russian POW camps, so they would fight to the last man.
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I didn't realize you were that old, grandpa. And actually, I thought retreat, regroup, or escape were their more favorable options, not fighting to the death. I'm sure the veteran's of WWII are proud of your take on history and that we weren't really as good as we thought we were against the german's becuase they were only trying hard against the Russians.

With us, they knew they would be treated humanely if captured, which made the prospect of surrender more attractive. In the end, that "weakness" of not brutalizing our enemy saved American lives.
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Bullshit. Did they teach you that in your fascist empathy class in high school ? If anything, the Russians fought to the last man standing for fear of getting shot by their own commanding officers for not fighting well enough. They didn't want to take prisoners becuase they had no way to feed their own soldiers, let alone prisoners. You got the effect right, but the causes completely wrong.

Yes, it worked so well with the Japaneese too. They were much more willing to surrender to us because we fed them good american cuisine when captured. They treated our prisoners with respect and dignity becuase we were so moral and fair to our Japaneese POW's. Sorry, your analogy doesn't fly in this case either. The Japaneese treated our POW's like animals and would have fought to the last man had the emporer not surrendered, irregardless of our humane treatment of prisoners.

These beasts of fascist Islam don't care about reciprocity of moral treatment of prisoners. Whether we treat them humanely or not, any and every action we take will be used against us. It's already a done deal. When will you get it through your head that they want you dead and nothing will stop them ? You think these people can be negociated with ? There will not be any peace treaty with them or civil exchange of prisoners at the end of the conflict. It's a fight to the death and you seem all too willing to sacrifice yourself for some pipedream of peace that ain't gonna happen.

I'd love to see you on television begging for your life in front of 4 masked, kalashnikoved cowards trying to explain to them that you really are a fair and moral person. They don't care. They're counting on our morality and lack of fortitude to carry out necessary messiness. They call it weakness, and it fuels their resolve and desire to attack when a creature is weak. Jesus, didn't you ever watch Wild Kingdom when you were a kid ?
 
Well, mulligan, many germans desperately tried to surrender to the western allies instead of Russia. To actually say that less americans were killed would be a stretch, but probably has some truth. Besides, among the german soldiers some actually believed that the americans and the british might ally with them to fight the russians.

The better treatment of prisoners when compared to the USSR resulted in germans preferring to surrender to us and, it seems reasonable to suggest, that some deaths were avoided when the german soldiers became certain of defeat. They weren't afraid of being killed or tortured by the americans, and assumed they would be safe, so surrender provided real benefits. There was no certainty if they surrendered to the russians.

Though, as for islamic extremists, there are two reasons not to engage in torture. One is those that may surrender if they fear their life is in danger will be less likely to, and more likely to continue fighting if surrender will result in torture. Second, we only provide more ammunition for them to use in recruitment, and outrage the non radical muslims to support, and/or join, terrorist groups. By engaging in some of the actions we do we require the terrorists to shoot themselves in the foot (like they did in jordan), because we sure as hell aren't harming their image.
 
So bmulligan, what you're saying then is that you're so in love with your own miserable life that you're willing to commit any evil to save it? Life is more valuable than morality, freedom and justice? Are you saying that every higher value beyond grubbing for another day of breathing should be pitched out the window the moment a threat is raised?

Our country was founded on the principle that there are things more valuable than life. Our founding fathers put their lives on the line to create a free country. Soldiers have died by the hundreds of thousands to preserve our freedom. Apparently you think they're fools, because NOTHING is more important than self-preservation to you.

We're all going to die someday. Some of us are going to die having held on to our values, fighting to make the world a better place up until our dying breath. Other may scrape a bit more life out of the bottom of the barrel by jettisoning everything. Either way, though, in the end, we're still all going to be worm food. Which life will have been more valuable at that point?
 
[quote name='Drocket']You know what? I'm now officially no longer proud to be an American.[/quote]

A liberal who hates America?

Why, that's unheard of!
 
Bmunchkin, read some of the now unclassified name/ detainee reports. the vast majority are being held under no probable cause, a few reports are just random people who happened to own guns and were brought in indefinately. You're just spewing the same garbage anybody else does and limiting the people who are detained as all TERRORISTS WHO DO NOT DESERVE ANY SYMPATHY AND WANT US DEAD. Well, if they didn't before they sure do now...

You're so quick too play the "FASCIST EMPATHY" card, where did you learn that? Cliche 101? Your lazy brain would have been dozing off in class anyways. You're the one who's really empathizing any kind of fascisim here is you as you stick up for these kinds of practices. The truth is any information about gitmo is seedy at best, the pathetic attempts to cover it up by showing a very select few people some of the "GOURMET" meals they recieve isn't a little fishy too you? as they were granted exclusive limited access too, OH, THE OUTSIDE OF THE PRISON GROUNDS! I guess that would not be fishy too you, afterall you aren't a blind cat, just a blind rat.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Al Queda is laughing with victory at our weakness as americans and our historical precedent of taking millitary action and then folding in on ourselves on our soft, liberal underbelly.[/QUOTE]

QFT


If you are not proud to be an American, no one is stopping you from leaving. :D
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Yes, unlike the humane treatment of the severed heads that roll in muslim circles, we are barbarians to force feed a prisoner, provide him with a working toilet, koran, 3 meals a day, and an exercise yard. [/QUOTE]

No. We are barbarians because we waterboard prisoners, humiliate them, flush that koran into that working toilet, and occasionally accidentally kill them while they are under custody.


[quote name='bmulligan']I didn't realize you were that old, grandpa. And actually, I thought retreat, regroup, or escape were their more favorable options, not fighting to the death. I'm sure the veteran's of WWII are proud of your take on history and that we weren't really as good as we thought we were against the german's becuase they were only trying hard against the Russians.

Bullshit. Did they teach you that in your fascist empathy class in high school ? If anything, the Russians fought to the last man standing for fear of getting shot by their own commanding officers for not fighting well enough. They didn't want to take prisoners becuase they had no way to feed their own soldiers, let alone prisoners. You got the effect right, but the causes completely wrong.[/QUOTE]

I would suggest as a primer you read Citizen Soldier by Stephen Ambrose. It's a really good book, and among its revelations are that yes, American soldiers did fight very, very well in WWII, and yes, American soldiers were aided by the fact that overall they fought a "good war" and treated prisoners humanely. In one interesting example, a German soldier fell down asleep next to an already-sleeping American soldier on a roadside. In the morning, he shook the American awake and surrendered to him. Not something you would do if you were fated to go to Guantanamo Bay.

I am assuming when you said Russians fighting to the last man you meant Germans. You are correct that many of your average joe Germans fought hard for fear of getting shot in the back. But if their officers or the SS weren't around -- and as you know, people do get separated in battle -- they were liable to surrender, and quickly.

[quote name='bmulligan']Yes, it worked so well with the Japaneese too. They were much more willing to surrender to us because we fed them good american cuisine when captured. They treated our prisoners with respect and dignity becuase we were so moral and fair to our Japaneese POW's. Sorry, your analogy doesn't fly in this case either. The Japaneese treated our POW's like animals and would have fought to the last man had the emporer not surrendered, irregardless of our humane treatment of prisoners.

These beasts of fascist Islam don't care about reciprocity of moral treatment of prisoners. Whether we treat them humanely or not, any and every action we take will be used against us. It's already a done deal. When will you get it through your head that they want you dead and nothing will stop them ? You think these people can be negociated with ? There will not be any peace treaty with them or civil exchange of prisoners at the end of the conflict. It's a fight to the death and you seem all too willing to sacrifice yourself for some pipedream of peace that ain't gonna happen.

I'd love to see you on television begging for your life in front of 4 masked, kalashnikoved cowards trying to explain to them that you really are a fair and moral person. They don't care. They're counting on our morality and lack of fortitude to carry out necessary messiness. They call it weakness, and it fuels their resolve and desire to attack when a creature is weak. Jesus, didn't you ever watch Wild Kingdom when you were a kid ?[/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing we negotate with Islamic terrorists, and nothing I've said indicates that.

But I do think your dehumanization of our enemy is a mistake, because it limits your view of what can and cannot be done to combat him. These are people who have been pumped full of religion and are crazed, but they are still people, and if you ignore what's driving them and just sum them up as "animals" you may overlook a vital weakness necessary to defeating them.

For example, yes, the Japanese were driven and even after the first Atomic Bomb fell their leaders were nearly unanimous in their desire to hold out.
But did you know that they also faced a potential famine, as their rice production that year had plummeted, and as few as a dozen American air strikes on key rail lines could have forced a surrender about as effectively as dropping the bomb did? This isn't to argue the morality of dropping the bomb, but to show you there's more than one way to skin a cat.

And just to be clear, I think you can be moral and still have the fortitude to protect yourself and your country. But to argue that for a good country to flourish, evil must be done in its name, is just wrong. It's the sort of argument fascists throughout history have foisted upon the ignorant masses, because it provides a quick and simple solution to a complex problem.
 
[quote name='Drocket'] fuck you.[/quote]

A liberal who's belligerent, obscene, and personal in his attacks?

I've heard just about enough of these tall-tales!
 
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