CAGcast #206: The Star Wars of Your Generation

Were people really that critical about Shipwreck's review of "Limbo"?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it and thought that it was a $15 well spent, but it seems like anytime someone slightly criticizes a game that could be used as a frontrunner in the "Games as Art" debate and doesn't hail it as a perfect specimen, they get shunned and thrown under the bus.

Which, let me be one to say, is a stupid debate in the first place. People are so focused on getting other people to accept their hobby as art that they forget to actually have fun. Who the hell really cares what other people think?

That's my opinion, anyway. You know, kind of like a review of something. Something you shouldn't be allowed to criticize someone for.
 
[quote name='encendido5']Wombat, I'm surprised you didn't call out the Sly Cooper collection for being too expensive. You can probably buy these games for the PS2 for $5 or less a piece. Granted you can't play them on the newer PS3's, but still.[/QUOTE]

It's the same price as the GoW collection, expect you get 3 games instead of 2.
 
[quote name='firehawk12']To me, bargain bin games are the 1 dollar McDonald hamburgers of gaming. Either I've already played the games or they're the games no one would ever want to play anyway.

Or how about this - why watch Inception when you can probably rent Batman Begins, Prestige and the Dark Knight for the same price? You can watch three Nolan movies for the price of one.

Or why buy a 360 when you can buy a PS2 and probably 10-20 games for the same price? Why buy a new 50" TV when you can get several 20" TVs for the same price? Where do you draw the line on these kinds of comparisons?

If you are comparing a new game to another new game in terms of "price", then maybe I would accept that argument, even if I think arguing based on price is rather silly - Limbo is 1/4 the price of Singularity, so is Limbo 1/4 as "good" as Singularity? - at least that argument is more apples to apples.

I mean, I look for bargains just like everyone else who posts on CAG, but Wombat's price comparisons don't make any sense to me.[/QUOTE]

That's a whole seperate issue, I feel. I disagree with the $60.00 price point as a standard. So I also disagree with XBLA price points being the same.

Take this example, DeathSpank is 1GB, Limbo is 300+MBs, yet both are $15.00. DeathSpank has a run time of 5-6 hours, Limbo has a run time of 3-4. So the question isn't why go see Inception over the Dark Knight, the question is, would you pay the same price to watch a 30 minute program as you would for a 90 minute one?

Wombat's argument that he could find and play ten games for the price of Limbo is exaggerated, but you could buy two or three games for that price. Right now, on Amazon, I could pick up PGR4 and Skate for a dollar less than Limbo. Maybe you've beaten them, but I haven't, so why pay for a three hour experience when I can play other full retail games for the same price?

In the end, however, it's about personal preference. If Limbo is worth $15.00 to you, cool. It's your money. To me, it isn't, and that's my choice.
 
[quote name='Jackhole85']I just listened to the part about Limbo. And there actually is a story to it, he's looking for his sister. And while that may not be very deep, I think a plumber looking for a princess that got taken by turtles isn't very deep either.

http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/offers/00000001-0000-4000-8000-0000584109d1

It says so in the game description[/QUOTE]

[quote name='FecesBreath']Took the words right out of my fingers. You have to read CheapyD!
[/QUOTE]

So, basically what you are saying is..the game has a "story", it's just not in the game. I'm pretty sure that doesn't count.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']So, basically what you are saying is..the game has a "story", it's just not in the game. I'm pretty sure that doesn't count.[/QUOTE]

Not to play Devil's Advocate, but in the Atari/NES/Genesis era, you had to read the manual for the story. I'm pretty sure it counts.

Edit: Of course, to jump back into my previous discussion. That begs the question, why does Limbo need to be $15.00. DeathSpank has more art assets, voice actors, dialogue writers, music, etc. Limbo has no dialogue, no voice acting, black on white art, and minimal music. How can one's development cost be low enough that $15.00 can turn a profit and the other have less expenses, and still need to charge $15.00.
 
another nice time killer show.

I'm guessing you guys don't ebay or trade in games (other other items for that mater). I'm sure a bunch of CAGs would like to buy up some old games that you might consider crap. maybe even run a CAG charity event or something and you guys can sign games that sell (or just a piece of paper since some don't like writing on games). same goes for accessories and other stuff (example Wombat mentioning 5 xbox 360 controllers)

like previous shows, I found it annoying how much cheapy brings up Apple. I'm sure you could get in contact with Steve Jobs, though there might be a blow job wait list.

it would be interesting if shipwreck ever decides to post some spreadsheets/charts/etc for games.

and a question when you write reviews, do you have to run it by the publisher (or whatever company handles the marketing)?
 
For those who have asked, here is what you can get for 15 bucks at gamestop.com today:

Rainbow Six Vegas: 2.99
Gears of War: 4.99
Lego Indy & Kung Fu Panda 3.99
Sega Tennis & Arcade Collection 2.49

Xbox Live Arcade Compilation game pack includes:
Feeding Frenzy
PAC-MAN Championship Edition
UNO
Boom Boom Rocket
Luxor 2

Thats 10 games for under 15 bucks. Quality of the titles is subject to the player :)
 
"Batman: Bold & The Beautiful"? I'm pretty sure that's not the name, but it it was I would definitely check it out. ;)
 
Awesome show guys! Like to thank you for taking time out of your day to do the shows. Keeps me up with video games.

By the way I'm not sure if anyone else caught this but who was that giggling from 78:24-78:26? Lol just curious to who it was.

Wombat?
 
I agree Limbo was probably overpriced, but I am much more likely to buy that than the $15 MW2 map packs. I always enjoy hearing reviews of movies that I have seen and enjoyed. I'm glad Shipwreck is giving away beta codes, since it seems that Gamestop and other retailers have run out. Great show as usual
 
if learning fatalities is too much for you to do dont freakin play cheapy. part of the fun of a mk game is learing the fatalities and pulling them off at will. if thats too hard for you to do then dont use them or are the regular moves hard for you to pull off as well? if they do make a lame ass difficulty mode like you suggested in the game they should call it pussy mode and you should earn an acheivement, since we all know youll buy it for the 360, called Kombat Pussy......hell they should take away acheivement points for doing that.

doing the fatalities in mk games isnt more or less difficult than pulling off supermoves in streetfighter games and i bet you put in the effort to do those dont you ? i bet if one of the fatalities was taking a shit youd learn it in a heartbeat. fucking pussy.
 
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I'm with Shipwreck. Limbo might be an indie game darling but if you're not loose with your money, a.k.a. a CAG, you'll realize this game isn't worth $15. Short gameplay without much replay value. The graphics are really nice and stylish but you can't make the claim that it had much development cost. Ditto for the sound. So how does the game justify $15? However, I might get it when it's a Deal of the Week at 50% off some day in the future.
 
[quote name='DrMunkee']Were people really that critical about Shipwreck's review of "Limbo"?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it and thought that it was a $15 well spent, but it seems like anytime someone slightly criticizes a game that could be used as a frontrunner in the "Games as Art" debate and doesn't hail it as a perfect specimen, they get shunned and thrown under the bus.

Which, let me be one to say, is a stupid debate in the first place. People are so focused on getting other people to accept their hobby as art that they forget to actually have fun. Who the hell really cares what other people think?

That's my opinion, anyway. You know, kind of like a review of something. Something you shouldn't be allowed to criticize someone for.[/QUOTE]
If it is art, then it should inspire debate about what it means and its place in the world. Most artists don't intend for their audience to all experience the same exact feelings or thoughts from a piece. It's all subjective and open to interpretation.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']So, basically what you are saying is..the game has a "story", it's just not in the game. I'm pretty sure that doesn't count.[/QUOTE]

If the game had an instruction booklet, it probably would've mentioned it. It might be in the Menu somewhere. I could also bring up the original Super Mario Bros., since it gives you no story until you beat each of the castles, but then again, that's just the premise of the game.

I guess I'd like a beta code (if that's a requirement).
 
[quote name='lokizz']if learning fatalities is too much for you to do dont freakin play cheapy. part of the fun of a mk game is learing the fatalities and pulling them off at will. if thats too hard for you to do then dont use them or are the regular moves hard for you to pull off as well? if they do make a lame ass difficulty mode like you suggested in the game they should call it pussy mode and you should earn an acheivement, since we all know youll buy it for the 360, called Kombat Pussy......hell they should take away acheivement points for doing that.

doing the fatalities in mk games isnt more or less difficult than pulling off supermoves in streetfighter games and i bet you put in the effort to do those dont you ?[/QUOTE]
Only hardcore players who know all button combos for fatalities should be allowed to play Mortal Kombat, right? Heaven forbid they add something completely optional so people who don't play competitively can pull off a fatality. It's like Cheapy said, the fight is already over and won, so it's not like its making it any easier for the person to play, all it does is perform something cool at the end of the fight.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']That's a whole seperate issue, I feel. I disagree with the $60.00 price point as a standard. So I also disagree with XBLA price points being the same.

Take this example, DeathSpank is 1GB, Limbo is 300+MBs, yet both are $15.00. DeathSpank has a run time of 5-6 hours, Limbo has a run time of 3-4. So the question isn't why go see Inception over the Dark Knight, the question is, would you pay the same price to watch a 30 minute program as you would for a 90 minute one?

Wombat's argument that he could find and play ten games for the price of Limbo is exaggerated, but you could buy two or three games for that price. Right now, on Amazon, I could pick up PGR4 and Skate for a dollar less than Limbo. Maybe you've beaten them, but I haven't, so why pay for a three hour experience when I can play other full retail games for the same price?

In the end, however, it's about personal preference. If Limbo is worth $15.00 to you, cool. It's your money. To me, it isn't, and that's my choice.[/QUOTE]

Well, if you go by random metrics like size or time played, then Stars War Force Unleashed is the best value since it is a 30 gigabyte game on PC. Or instead of watching Inception, you could have bought the DVD box set of Community which is ten times longer than any movie.

Anyway, I'm not arguing personal preference. Looking at Wombat's list of games he found, if you want to play Vegas 1 or Gears 1, then that's great. Just because I played them when they came out doesn't mean everyone else has.

I'm just saying with that logic, there's no reason to ever buy anything new because you can always find "better" value for your money. Why buy Mass Effect 2 when you can get Mass Effect 1, Knights of the Old Republic and Jade Empire for much less? You get more games, you can play much longer and they are all still BioWare experiences.

If the argument is that Limbo will probably go on sale next year and you should just wait, then I agree with that statement. If you're in no rush to buy it and play it now, then just wait. The same goes for retail games. But the apples to oranges value comparison doesn't make sense to me because you'll always find better "value" if you're willing to lower your standard threshold.
 
A lot of sites refused to cover PSP Minis until Young Thor's developers gave them codes, so they must have put a lot of effort into getting coverage. Maybe that's a result of some critics/sites that don't want to review games that aren't just handed to them.

I love when people try to justify not spending money on a game based on the file size and other stuff like that that has no bearing on the quality of the game. Criticize the content, its quality, and the stuff that actually matters in the game that you're considering.

You can spoil Limbo by talking about the puzzles, as some people want to get through the game without knowing anything beforehand. Braid was a lot more gamey than Limbo, which has a better pace between puzzles as you moved swiftly between puzzles. I liked it a lot more than Braid.

The lack of pushing story onto me made Limbo a really engrossing experience, as I was probably able to project myself into the role of the boy and was usually startled to see him get torn apart when I made mistakes. Braid had far too much story for me that just make it hard to get into it.

I'd have bought Limbo for $15 because it's a quality experience that is the kind of thing I want to support. I don't judge every purchase I make by how fiscally responsible it is, as I'd miss out on a lot of great experiences because of that kind of relentless logic. Length and multiplayer are two things that tend to be what most people freak out about when I'd rather the game be as long as it needs to be without overstaying its welcome and adding multiplayer isn't a guarantee of anything with the way communities can die quickly after launch to render that feature worthless most of the time. If other developers and publishers take Limbo selling well being a sign that everybody supports 3 hour games, they deserve to have their company fail and lose tons of money.

Not buying a game for $15 when you can get a bunch of used games for $15 is crazy. With that same kind of logic, you wouldn't buy anything above $10 because of how many used games you could get. Why did you buy a new Xbox 360 when you could've gotten a ton of used games for that $300? It just undermines the entire point of buying games (quality) with a requirement (quantity) that doesn't guarantee anything but more stuff for the price. I took advantage of an old EB Games deal for 15 Dreamcast games for $50 and I should've just bought a new PS2 game for $50 than take the crap that EB Games couldn't get rid of any other way than tricking people into that deal. Especially now with the limited amount of time I have, quality is a lot more important than the quantity of games since I have more than enough games to play that are of varying quality.

There are over 40 $15 or $20 games on XBLA, so they are pretty common since most of those came out in the past two years. Microsoft needs to start treating its marketplace like a marketplace and allow price drops so some of the $15 games can get a new life at $10 since only successful games can drop their price right now when they become Arcade Hits, which isn't a solution to that issue. As an example, the two Penny Arcade games are $15 and $20 on XBLA, $5 each on Steam, and you can get a $15 bundle of both episodes on PSN.

DeathSpank was an easy game, as I'm playing through it again on Hard and I can't tell what is different. I think EA balked at joining Summer of Arcade with the way both of their XBLA games (DeathSpank and Shank) are bookending Summer of Arcade.

Microsoft needs to admit that Destination of Arcade is a beta for whatever people assume it's a beta for before I think it's anything but a failure to revamp the XBLA marketplace problem. The biggest issue is that it tells you nothing about the games that are out, as it only offers boxart, name, price, publisher, and some small screenshots that makes it worthless as a tool.

Activision's CEOs are a bit too eager to compare everything they do to Star Wars, as Bobby Kotick likened himself to being Luke Skywalker as he was fighting the Empire when he was trying to repair his image (that he was more like Darth Vader force-choking those that disobeyed him).

Good show.
 
[quote name='Wombat']For those who have asked, here is what you can get for 15 bucks at gamestop.com today:

Rainbow Six Vegas: 2.99
Gears of War: 4.99
Lego Indy & Kung Fu Panda 3.99
Sega Tennis & Arcade Collection 2.49

Xbox Live Arcade Compilation game pack includes:
Feeding Frenzy
PAC-MAN Championship Edition
UNO
Boom Boom Rocket
Luxor 2

Thats 10 games for under 15 bucks. Quality of the titles is subject to the player :)[/QUOTE]
What if you had the choice between 10 bad movies or one amazing movie. You would choose the 10 bad ones? What about art? If you could have either 10 ugly pictures or one beautiful one, you would take the 10 ugly ones? I understand that those aren't 10 awful games, but like you said quality is subject to the player, and quality is also subject to the viewer of a movie or piece of art.
 
[quote name='DarkZion']Only hardcore players who know all button combos for fatalities should be allowed to play Mortal Kombat, right? Heaven forbid they add something completely optional so people who don't play competitively can pull off a fatality. It's like Cheapy said, the fight is already over and won, so it's not like its making it any easier for the person to play, all it does is perform something cool at the end of the fight.[/QUOTE]


thats a bullshit excuse im no hardcore mk player but it doesnt take much to find one character you like and learn their moves. if he can pull off a fireball in street fighter or a tiger uppercut why is one mk fatality too much to learn? hes stated time and again that hes a lazy gamer who often plays games on easy just to get through them.
 
haha I didn't even know you guys had a forum! Guess I have a new place to come post about games so!

If you have any MoH beta codes left maybe you could help an irish brother out?

Great show as always ive been listening a good few months now!
 
[quote name='Jackhole85']What if you had the choice between 10 bad movies or one amazing movie. You would choose the 10 bad ones? What about art? If you could have either 10 ugly pictures or one beautiful one, you would take the 10 ugly ones? I understand that those aren't 10 awful games, but like you said quality is subject to the player, and quality is also subject to the viewer of a movie or piece of art.[/QUOTE]

I would argue that Gears 1 and Pac Man Championship, if you have never played them, are better then Limbo.
 
[quote name='Wombat']For those who have asked, here is what you can get for 15 bucks at gamestop.com today:

Rainbow Six Vegas: 2.99
Gears of War: 4.99
Lego Indy & Kung Fu Panda 3.99
Sega Tennis & Arcade Collection 2.49

Xbox Live Arcade Compilation game pack includes:
Feeding Frenzy
PAC-MAN Championship Edition
UNO
Boom Boom Rocket
Luxor 2

Thats 10 games for under 15 bucks. Quality of the titles is subject to the player :)[/QUOTE]
I'd rather give my 15 bucks to an indie developer, who can use it to make more games, than I would to an evil corporation with questionable business practices.
 
Is Kotick insane? (not the first time I have asked myself this question). Call of Duty is no where near Star Wars in any measurable way. Think about this, Star Wars' lastest 3 movies (Ep 1-3) where terrible, and still Star Wars fans are everywhere buying up all things Star Wars.
If Kotick releases 1 terrible Call of Duty game, not to mention 3 terrible in a row, the CoD franchise would be drastically marginalized. Similar to the NBA live and Tomb Raider franchises. Nothing has come out since Star Wars to take it's place, while every year the "next big FPS" hits store shelves. This is why Kotick knows he has to release a COD game every year, or players will move on. I don't think this guy really believes what he says half the time.
 
People have been saying "_____ is the new Star Wars" since 1977. It's nothing to get worked up about. It just means that whatever they are trying to sell cannot stand on it's own.
 
[quote name='Wombat']I would argue that Gears 1 and Pac Man Championship, if you have never played them, are better then Limbo.[/QUOTE]
Pac Man Championship Edition is even shorter than Limbo at about an hour to beat the game and get every achievement. It has less replay value than Limbo. Plus, there's a sequel coming that will have a lot more to offer.
 
I would say Harry Potter (even though I don't care for it), you guys were right.
 
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[quote name='lokizz']thats a bullshit excuse im no hardcore mk player but it doesnt take much to find one character you like and learn their moves. if he can pull off a fireball in street fighter or a tiger uppercut why is one mk fatality too much to learn? hes stated time and again that hes a lazy gamer who often plays games on easy just to get through them.[/QUOTE]
Learning a single fatality is one thing, but if you want to be able to see every character's fatality, you'd have to learn all of them. And there's still a difference between doing a move in Street Fighter and doing a fatality in Mortal Kombat. In Street Fighter, the moves help you win whereas Mortal Kombat the fatalities do absolutely nothing to help you.

And I'm not even going to try to defend Cheapy and his play style.
 
I don't understand the incessant hate on Star War episodes 1-3. The first one sucked balls only because the kid that played Anaken was annoying, but the fight at the end between Darth Maul and Obi-wan was pretty sweet. As far as movies in the scifi genre go they were good. A lot of people are trashing them like they can't believe they weren't straight to DVD.

This is just a case where the new stuff is gay and the old stuff is cool. Like in every review for the Predators movie that trashes it; they make references to the original as if Jesus Christ himself made it. When fact of the matter is it's on par with original.

And please spare me the assault on my tastes in cinema, thanks!

[quote name='FriskyTanuki']Pac Man Championship Edition is even shorter than Limbo at about an hour to beat the game and get every achievement. It has less replay value than Limbo. Plus, there's a sequel coming that will have a lot more to offer.[/QUOTE]

Now I haven't played either game, but a puzzle game doesn't really have any replay value. You played the game you beat the puzzles; what else could you do with a 2nd play through?

With pacman you can keep playing to get a higher and higher score, no? Depends really on how much you like pacman, but you can sub pacman for any game that involves high scores that you might be a big fan of.

Unless that sequel is free to those who bought the 1st game it does nothing to increase the value of Limbo. So that's kind of a moot point.
 
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']This is just a case where the new stuff is gay and the old stuff is cool. [/QUOTE]

No. The reason people trash the prequels is because the dialogue and acting were far, far worse than in the originals.

"I don't like sand. Its rough and coarse and it gets everywhere. Not like you. Your skin is soft and smooth..." etc.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']So, basically what you are saying is..the game has a "story", it's just not in the game. I'm pretty sure that doesn't count.[/QUOTE]
Would the story have been better if the kid was a pervert and he was looking for a malaysian child prostitute?

I mean, you could technically write any description for the game based on what people have said.
 
[quote name='DarkZion']Learning a single fatality is one thing, but if you want to be able to see every character's fatality, you'd have to learn all of them. And there's still a difference between doing a move in Street Fighter and doing a fatality in Mortal Kombat. In Street Fighter, the moves help you win whereas Mortal Kombat the fatalities do absolutely nothing to help you.

And I'm not even going to try to defend Cheapy and his play style.[/QUOTE]

like i said he can just learn one person thats what i do. and as far as seeing the fatalities nowdays you can just search youtube and find videos on games but before that in a number of mk games there was something you could do that showed every fatality in the game.
 
New listener here. I've caught up on the last few episodes and have to say I'm enjoying the show. Thanks for the new ear-candy!
 
[quote name='lokizz']like i said he can just learn one person thats what i do. and as far as seeing the fatalities nowdays you can just search youtube and find videos on games but before that in a number of mk games there was something you could do that showed every fatality in the game.[/QUOTE]
I'm well aware of that. I just don't see how it would hurt the game if they made fatalities easier to pull off. The match is over, you've already won. It's not like they're suggesting that fatalities become completely automatic to where it does for you if you win.
 
I felt the same way about deathspank. I want to grow with a weapon or a piece of armor but, not here. Alas, no other issues there good downloadable game.


P.S. - *RAISES HAND* Pick me for a MoH beta code *wink*
 
[quote name='DarkZion']I'm well aware of that. I just don't see how it would hurt the game if they made fatalities easier to pull off. The match is over, you've already won. It's not like they're suggesting that fatalities become completely automatic to where it does for you if you win.[/QUOTE]

heres a link to a list of fatalities and how to do them for the first mk game. are you telling me all of these are hard to do ?


http://www.mksecrets.net/mk1/eng/mk-specialmoves.php
 
Great episode as usual. Loved that intro music. Sounded awesome.

This whole Call of Duty being the "Star Wars of our generation" is so funny. CoD isn't even the best console shooter of this generation, let alone some cultural phenomenon.

(Star Trek > Star Wars for life, though)

Something to note: I see people bashing Bobby Kotick for the comment. He wasn't the one who said it. It was Activision's publishing CEO whose name escapes me at the moment.
 
Why are people complaining to Shipwreck about the buy price for Limbo. Do they not read the website's address of cheap ass gamer? This is not Pimp Ass Gamer, its cheap ass gamer and shipwreck is appealing to his audience. This website sum's it all up in its name.

One day I was driving around Phoenix looking for something to eat. I saw a sign that said "Long Wong's" and I said to myself "I could go for chinese food". So I pulled my 1991 Ford Tempo into the lot and got out of my car and walked into the restaurant. When I opened the door I was greeted by a nice hispanic gentleman. I looked on the walls witch where decorated with sombrero's and other hispanic cultural decorations. I looked around and I seemed confused until I heard the hispanic greeter ask me if I would like a menu. I told my self that I could go for Mexican food now, so I told the waiter as I made my new decision that I would like a menu. I accepted the menu from the kind sir and opened it up to see there three main specialties: Burgers, Pizza, and Wings. There was no sign of Chinese or Mexican food anywhere on the menu. I than got so confused I vomited all over the counter and they kicked me out.

The moral of the story is that restraunt came across as something else and left the consumer assuming what it was. A place like Long Wong's I and many others would consider a Chinese food place. A website like cheapassgamer says it loud and clear that people are looking for cheap stuff and or get a discount. If Shipwreck ever encounters any of these people that question him at E3 or anywhere else he just needs to vomit on them and yell "Why did you make me do that" as he faints right afterwards. I guarantee you they would not fuck with the Ship again, or they just might beat the shit out of him, but I guarantee that one of those two things will happen. Oh by the way, if you are in the Phoenix area and want to encounter this confusion, Long Wong's is located at 75th Ave and Thomas.
 
[quote name='Davestation']Stuff.[/QUOTE]
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