CAGcast #382: The Fox News of Gaming

Alien: Isolation being 20+ hours kind of killed it for me. This is a game built on suspense and anxiety. I want to feel tense when playing it, but I want that experience to be more contained, more focused. If a game goes that long and tension is the standard, then I think I will become numb to it. There's a reason roller coasters are two minutes long.

 
Show was epic, the first 10 minutes was the best. Both those stories were so funny, i dropped my mail on the ground while i was working when wombat talked about the liquid poo lady.

I still havent made a current gen jump but i watched cheapy stream forza horizons 2 and im seriously thinking i need to make the switch to play that game. Pretty much looks like the best driving game ever made.


I already knew Destiny wasnt for me. After spending 246, maybe more, playing days in Everquest years ago, i just had to ban myself from anything resmbling an mmo.
 
all the other stuff aside..anytime you are on the same side of an issue as breitbart and that nutjub adam baldwin. You might want to reconsider. 

 
[quote name="usickenme" post="12137844" timestamp="1412435314"]all the other stuff aside..anytime you are on the same side of an issue as breitbart and that nutjub adam baldwin. You might want to reconsider. [/quote]

You know that guilt by association is in the ad hominem fallacy category?
 
I always thought it was in the Red Herring fallacy category. 

and in an attempt to "get" me with your logical gymnastics  you failed to account for one thing. I never claimed anyone was "guilty"of anything nor did I reject anyone's arguments nor did I claim gamergate people are bad or as bad as those I listed,   I simply said you might want reconsider your position. 

Now if I had said.. gamergate is stupid because it is supported by  breitbart and that nutjub adam baldwin, might have scored a point (although I would argue that lack of interest in games by both would disqualifies them from any real discussion). 

 
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usickenme said:
I always thought it was in the Red Herring fallacy category.

and in an attempt to "get" me with your logical gymnastics you failed to account for one thing. I never claimed anyone was "guilty"of anything nor did I reject anyone's arguments nor did I claim gamergate people are bad or as bad as those I listed, I simply said you might want reconsider your position.

Now if I had said.. gamergate is stupid because it is supported by breitbart and that nutjub adam baldwin, might have scored a point (although I would argue that lack of interest in games by both would disqualifies them from any real discussion).
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What's wrong with Breitbart, other than the fact that you don't agree with their political views? Also, from what I have read of the one Breitbart journalist that is reporting on gamergate, Breitbart as a whole doesn't support one side or another. Breitbart merely has a reporter writing about the issue.

 
Great show gentlemen. Always love it when you can start with dirty dicks and liquid poop and end with Gamergate.

As much as I'm loathe to even bring it up, GamerGate shares a similar problem the Occupy movement had: very little organization and a dispirate group of people with a variety of axes to grind all shouting at once. If you think GamerGate is about misogyny, slut-shaming and protecting an imaginary status quo, there's plenty of people you can point to and you'd be right. Those people are awful and should crawl back under whatever rock they came from.

However, if you think GamerGate is about ethics and the increasing politicization of video game journalism, there's plenty of those folks as well who don't care about Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian or any of the other hot-button click-bait issues and they have a lot of good points that are largely being ignored/written off because of the first group.

The fact of the matter is that video game journalism is in a transitional period right now. With the print side of the industry largely dead and buried, the only large voices we have left for video game commentary, criticism and discussion are these video game blogs (largely made up of the cast-offs of the print side and a newer wave of folks who came through the ranks of smaller blogs) and Youtube personalities. Video game blogs (and their progenitors in print) are largely marketing arms of the major publishers: the majority of their ad revenue comes from within the industry and they're solely reliant on the publisher's marketing departments to do their job (review games, get footage for upcoming games). That's a joke we've all laughed about for years but it's a serious problem that brings in to question every word they say until something changes. Add to all of that what's taken place in the last couple of months. The one non-horrible thing that did come out of all of the Zoe Quinn nonsense (which largely ended up being overblown and baseless and would've gone away after a week if the internet hadn't completely shut down any discussion or debate surrounding it... people that internet savvy should know the Streisand effect) was that it brought in to sharp focus the incestuous relationship (metaphorically most of the time) between video game journalists and indie game developers. The fact that they're friends is not that big a deal and not particularly surprising. They're mostly the same age, have the same interests and live in the same areas and tax brackets. What's troubling is that there is a lot of editorial decisions that have to be made on a regular basis: covering Kickstarters, supporting Patreons and general coverage of the indie community. There is a significant amount of money involved and almost no transparency as to who knows who and whether what we see is genuine. That's a problem whether these people want to admit it or not.

The other part is the increasing politicization of these blogs. Don't get it twisted... I'm about as left as you get in America (to the point of taking part in rallies for important social causes) but I have removed several of the websites in question off of my bookmarks in the last few years because I am sick and tired of the identity politics. I don't speak for the GamerGate people (partly because I'm not one of them and partly because there are MANY different voices among them) but I'm fairly confident in saying that the vast majority of them aren't interested in a Fox News: Video Game Edition (the mere idea makes me ill) but would rather see little to no politics in video game criticism. Just like film criticism. Just like music criticism. Not that video games can't make a political statement. Not that video game journalists can't have opinions about the world and how it should be. Only that they keep those views largely separate from their feelings about the newest Mario game. I personally am tired of hearing that video game developers (Tropico 5, Assassin's Creed, Dragon's Crown, etc.) and the people who enjoy playing their games are disgusting, misogynists, neckbeards and other perjoratives because they don't all fit neatly within a very narrow (and ever-changing) political ideology. It was stupid and wrong-headed when Jack Thompson said we were promoting violence. It's stupid and wrong-headed now when Kotaku says we're promoting misogyny.

That said, a lot of what the "activist" video game journalists want I agree with and am all in favor of: more diversity in game development, more diversity in who reports on games and a wider breadth of subjects covered in video game narrative. All noble goals that are seemingly being tackled in the realm of indie game development. The problems come when simply encouraging those goals isn't enough and people feel the need to shame developers who make art design choices or narrative choices that don't agree with their narrow world view.

Video games are an entertainment. A hobby. A distraction. Like Ship says in these situations, they're not important... and he's exactly right. Video games aren't important enough for politics to ruin. I don't want conservative media blogs. If we've learned nothing, it should be that Fox News and the increased politicization and monetization of news that came out of Fox's arrival more or less destroyed the trustworthiness of news media. And that's what happening here: it's a click-bait race to the bottom and a lot of folks seem to be asking for it to stop. If people want to write articles on the misogyny of the Japanese game industry and how it reflects the society's larger issues, I'm all for it. I'd probably read that article if it was well-researched and not mindless click-bait. Just do it somewhere else more appropriate and let video games continue to be a respite from the bile and hatred in the rest of the world.

Edit: moved around a couple words.

 
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Great show guys!  I've listened since the beginning when it was just Wombat & CheapyD, and it's still my most anticipated games podcast of the week.

I hope all 3 of you are planning to at least try the Driveclub PS+ version, as I'd love to hear the comparisons between it and FH2.  It might be a good follow-up to your DLC discussion too, since Evolution has already detailed exactly what to expect over the next year for free updates and season pass users:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2014/09/10/driveclub-free-dlc-schedule-detailed/

If I like the PS+ version well enough, I'll probably be in for the full version since it's discounted to $50 on PSN, the season pass another $25, and that promotion for $15 back on $100 spent in the month of October.

 
I think the problem with DLC is gamers can not handle a gaming company being honest with them about development process.  They will either complain about work not being included in the disc.  Or on the flip side they will complain about being asked to buy content without knowing what they are getting.  Game companies are in a no win situation.  Even people who should be in the know will flip on dime.   Cheapy compliments Forza  Horizon for not having micro transactions then five minutes later argues they should include more micro transactions so you can buy one car at a time.

I do not see anything wrong with people going to Intel and suggesting they not support a site's politics. If you have a problem with a site's content you should have the option to protest it in many non-violent ways, and contacting the site's sponsors is a legitimate tactic. It is not the same as harassing someone over social media or  threatening them physically. 

 
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Questions for @CheapyD regarding Tokyo and Japan before you get out.

We've seen a bunch of disasters (natural and otherwise) hit Japan the past few years which you mentioned as part of your family's desire to move back the US.  Is there a prepper subculture in Japan like has developed in the US over the past decade?

 
I figured that Wombat wanted some more love in the comments, so here it goes:

Wombat is a stupid moron with an ugly face and a big butt and his butt smells and he likes to kiss his own butt.

I think Cheapy obsesses too much on Forza as being an example of how all games handle DLC, which I'd say is an exaggeration. Look at games like Rock Band, LittleBigPlanet, Zen Pinball/Pinball FX, Pinball Arcade, Gran Turismo, and plenty of others that don't have DLC that feels like the exploitative stuff that some games offer, like Forza, Madden, FIFA, NBA 2K and others. Some of those games even offer forward compatible DLC so that things you bought for one version of the game work in future versions of the game that provides a lot of value for content that costs $2 to $10. If sequels did a better job of rewarding players for sticking with the series long term like Rock Band, LBP, and Zen Pinball do, then there'd be more loyalty to these brands. Imagine if Call of Duty and Battlefield let you have more maps for each successor if you bought them previously, lots of people would easily pony up the money for the new game to get shinier versions of those maps. It gets weirder when pre-orders focus their limited editions on their season pass, but that comes from publishers that are more abusive with DLC (Activision, Microsoft).

Like I've said the last few weeks when you've talked about GamerGate, it's a form of insanity that only exists on the internet. I've seen people that are a part of it that intend to bully/censor those that have opinions they don't agree with. They say they don't support harassment, censorship, and things like that, but plenty of those people engage in that stuff to try to get their way from others. They don't like generalizations made about them, but plenty of them make generalizations about their "opponents", writers, SJWs, hipsters, and many others that do whatever to get on their bad side. They want to find out all of the facts, but pointing out the flaws in their conspiracies will result in lots of hate sent your way and no apologies for making the mistake. There are people that will comb through your post history to find the tiniest thing they can obsess and harass you about, like the Leigh Alexander tweet posted above about weird guys harassing her outside of her home, because you're not allowed to be human and make mistakes at any point in your time on the internet. You're automatically a garbage person with no redeeming qualities that could have grown, learned, and matured since then. I'm sure many GG people are decent people that have been misled on the facts or are a part of the movement for the better reasons/concerns, but most of the leading voices are doing some of the craziest things that go against logic and everything they supposedly stand for that are okay because it furthers their cause.

Leigh Alexander is such a central focus of the movement at this point because that's one of the only factual things they can point to that actually exists and can't be debunked, though the editorial itself is specifically calling out the worst parts of the community that tries to ruin the good name of the gamer for the good people that make up the vast majority and how developers don't need to target those terrible people anymore as the audience grows and becomes more varied over time. Her article may be written in more of an inflammatory tone due to it being written shortly after she had to endure watching friends of hers being harassed by the jerks to the point of having to flee their homes in fear of their safety.

You can find their plans for boycott stuff here to see what they're planning exactly, which includes the stuff you guys talked about on the show.

 
It has been a week or two but I just wanted to say I appreciate that it's the guy from Ohio that has opinions on Target's popcorn.

 
I've been really annoyed with wombat lately for several reasons.

- he says he doesn't care about GG but then strongly tells us his opinion.

- whenever he says "these people also have jobs!". So this excuses now bad business practices and consumers should just suck it up?

- Might just be me but he seemed to really promote Destiny. Seemed kinda forced to me. 

 

and one thing with CheapyD:

You can't put all in the same boat and say these are the liberal gaming news sites, and that are the conservative news site, and conservative people like to read conservative news sites and vice versa since this doesn't apply to Germany, UK, Japan etc.

I only want to read news sites that tell me when a game gets released or announced, maybe an interview, about it's features and premise. And none of this "How Kirby is so progressive since he's genderless" madness.

Shipwreck seems to get it the most.

but other than that a quality show week after week. long time listener

 
Plenty of games have done DLC "right." As Shipwreck said, both Borderlands have great DLCs. GTA IV also had amazing DLC - both the "Episodes from Liberty City" were superb and even felt close to the length of the main game. (I'm hoping GTA V has similar DLC, but a year already having passed with their focus seeming to be with Online I'm getting worried about that.) Fallout 3 and Skyrim and just Bethesda games in general have great DLC, but then again I always get them on sale because they're pretty pricy otherwise in my opinion. (New Vegas, though not a Bethesda game, probably has great DLC too. I own it just haven't played it yet.) XCOM's DLC-expansion Enemy Within is pretty good; just played it recently. Though I thought that too was not quite worth its base price; got it on sale.

Anyways, that's enough examples. There are definitely a lot of games that do DLC right.

As for the whole Kinect muting stuff, I'm definitely not a fan of Kinect so I hate to give it any credit, but the whole background noise thing kind of just comes with the territory of online console gaming. On PS3, which doesn't have any headset included so not many people had one, you'd still run into plenty of people who keep their mics live even though they're not actually using the mic to speak and they also have a bunch of background noise going on. People just don't think to mute their mics for some reason. I don't know why since I always do.

 
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[quote name="MasterMiller" post="12142007" timestamp="1412624405"]I've been really annoyed with wombat lately for several reasons.

- he says he doesn't care about GG but then strongly tells us his opinion.
- whenever he says "these people also have jobs!". So this excuses now bad business practices and consumers should just suck it up?
- Might just be me but he seemed to really promote Destiny. Seemed kinda forced to me.


and one thing with CheapyD:
You can't put all in the same boat and say these are the liberal gaming news sites, and that are the conservative news site, and conservative people like to read conservative news sites and vice versa since this doesn't apply to Germany, UK, Japan etc.

I only want to read news sites that tell me when a game gets released or announced, maybe an interview, about it's features and premise. And none of this "How Kirby is so progressive since he's genderless" madness.

Shipwreck seems to get it the most.
but other than that a quality show week after week. long time listener[/quote]

It seems like Since hes been on uninformed opinions podcast, Wombat tries to be contrary to generate interest. Maybe Cheapy promote this to create a more Stern-like dynamic? Wombatgate.
 
MasterMiller said:
I've been really annoyed with wombat lately for several reasons.

- he says he doesn't care about GG but then strongly tells us his opinion.
- whenever he says "these people also have jobs!". So this excuses now bad business practices and consumers should just suck it up?
- Might just be me but he seemed to really promote Destiny. Seemed kinda forced to me.


and one thing with CheapyD:
You can't put all in the same boat and say these are the liberal gaming news sites, and that are the conservative news site, and conservative people like to read conservative news sites and vice versa since this doesn't apply to Germany, UK, Japan etc.

I only want to read news sites that tell me when a game gets released or announced, maybe an interview, about it's features and premise. And none of this "How Kirby is so progressive since he's genderless" madness.

Shipwreck seems to get it the most.
but other than that a quality show week after week. long time listener
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What is my view on Gamer Gate?
 
From a game industry producer's perspective (I've been in the industry for 13 years now), I have yet to work or first-person see DLC made with such amoral standards. Every DLC pack I've worked on had its own separate budget and never released on the game's disc. Also, I've never seen content be purposefully held out of the retail game to keep for DLC. I've worked on DLC for Call of Duty, Borderlands, SpecOps and Gears of War, among less notable titles.

However, what does often happen is content that was planned for the retail game gets cut during production for one reason or another (not enough time, too many bugs, not working for whatever reason) and then that content gets reborn as DLC when more time and resources could be committed to it.

The DLC examples you guys talked about on this show suck, and I sincerely hope everyone remembers they're voting with their dollars. The more you support good examples, the more good examples will be out there.

 
Good show gang.  Hey I have a watch this bitches for you guys.  Check out Star Wars: Rebels. Its the new star wars cartoon and the pilot aired last weekend. Its on Disney XD for those of you with cable.  Its based in the original trilogy timespan, and its just violent enough to be interesting. Also, the art direction is based on the concept art for the original trilogy. Give it a look!

 
After that hobo encounter, you'll never look at one of these the same way again, Cheapy.
UMEdEFT.png


 
I just spent the day listening to old Weekend confirmed from 2006. so funny.

Puts into perspective what these stupid fucks (game journalists) think.

 
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Listening to CheapyD and Shipwreck talk about Forza Horizons 2 makes me want to get an X1.  It sounds like a well designed racing game that is right up my alley.

 
Really enjoy CheapyD's thoughts on rewarding the Day 1 purchaser of a game. It's not every day that I buy a game on launch for $60.  Online components are likely to have issues on day one and there are many patches that come later.  The Day 1 purchaser deals with a lot of trouble that the 1 month (or more) later purchaser.  
 
Why not give even more rewards to that Day 1 supporter?  Pre-order bonus items are rarely worth the potential trouble / hassle that is dealt with in a launch-day game.  
 
The biggest problem with GG is that those in support of it just don't understand that people are entitled to their opinions. And if anyone thinks that they should suffer for those opinions, well, something's wrong with them, because, at the end of the day, their opinions cannot hurt you, unless you let it.  Which is what Gamergate did. They let someone's opinion hurt them. Now, they're throwing a tantrum because they've proven themselves incapable of taking criticism. 

And it's been said before, but it bears repeating, Alexander's article was basically saying that the foul mouthed, 12 year olds on Xbox live are not the only gamers out there, so, perhaps, developers should try diversifying their portfolio because there's only so much money to be made in the CoD groups. If anyone was insulted by that article, they need to figure out why they got insulted instead of, as previously stated, throw a fit. 

Edit: And for those complaining about the politics of the writers, I wonder, what would a conservative gaming website look like?  As flamebaiting as it sounds, I'm genuinely curious for those who want their gaming news delivered with a conservative bent if they seem to not want liberal leanings in the writing they consume. 

 
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