CAGcast #68: Symphony of the Meat Spin
- Thread starter CheapyD
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[quote name='Kaijufan']Cheapy is totally right about GTA being an everyone game. While Madden is an everyone game for football fans, the GTA games are truly everyone games for nearly everyone (except families and young children). The three main GTA games outsold the best selling Madden game in total unit sales for the PS2 by nearly 2 million.
For me personally GTA was huge among my casual gaming friends. For some it was even a system seller, and most bought few games besides GTA.[/quote]
Sorry, but put me firmly in the camp that thinks GTA is certainly NOT an "everyone" game. I have no desire to play it, and if I had kids, I wouldn't let them play it either. I hate Jack Thompson, but games like GTA only serve to reinforce the general public's perception that video games are for socially retarded misanthropes who like nothing better than committing virtual crime. I'm sure a certain segment of gamers, both casual and hardcore, labors under the delusion that GTA is this huge cultural touchstone, but I also think that group of people has no clue as to what's going on in the wider world.
The fact is, the vast majority of CAGs are males in their teens to early 30s; a desirable demographic for game publishers (and advertisers), sure, but not exactly broad swath of the population. So one of this group declaring "GTA is for everyone!" is roughly equivalent to Jerry Falwell declaring "Christianity is the most popular religion!" It may seem like a completely true statement to that person and the people around him, but it starts to break down when considered on a broader scale.
The fact that the only two games discussed in this argument are GTA and Madden tells me all I need to know.
For me personally GTA was huge among my casual gaming friends. For some it was even a system seller, and most bought few games besides GTA.[/quote]
Sorry, but put me firmly in the camp that thinks GTA is certainly NOT an "everyone" game. I have no desire to play it, and if I had kids, I wouldn't let them play it either. I hate Jack Thompson, but games like GTA only serve to reinforce the general public's perception that video games are for socially retarded misanthropes who like nothing better than committing virtual crime. I'm sure a certain segment of gamers, both casual and hardcore, labors under the delusion that GTA is this huge cultural touchstone, but I also think that group of people has no clue as to what's going on in the wider world.
The fact is, the vast majority of CAGs are males in their teens to early 30s; a desirable demographic for game publishers (and advertisers), sure, but not exactly broad swath of the population. So one of this group declaring "GTA is for everyone!" is roughly equivalent to Jerry Falwell declaring "Christianity is the most popular religion!" It may seem like a completely true statement to that person and the people around him, but it starts to break down when considered on a broader scale.
The fact that the only two games discussed in this argument are GTA and Madden tells me all I need to know.
ViolentLee
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[quote name='Alandrafts']Cheapy -- another excellent Cagcast (uh, meatspin notwithstanding) and I was truly impressed by your interview with Justin Leeper. You asked all the right questions and had an easy-going interview style that it took me, as a journalist, several years (and countless lame interviews) to develop. I thought Justin's take on freelance game journalism was interesting, but as a freelancer now myself (I don't write about games, usually, but about technology in general), I have a slightly different take on the job -- and since you have readers/listeners who are curious freelance writing, I thought I'd chime in:
First, it's sort of a myth that freelancers make their own hours. Yes, you almost never work the typical nine-to-five (or nine-to-seven-plus, as most journalism jobs tend to be), but freelancing is a feast or famine sort of gig, and when works is offered, it's hard to say no (you start thinking of everything you can buy with that paycheck). Once you take an assignment, your editor's schedule is now your schedule. Multiply that by several simultaneous assignments (if you're lucky enough to get them) and you can see that a successful freelancer has very little room to carve out downtime on their own terms. Having worked as both a staff writer (meaning, I worked at and for a specific magazine) and a freelancer, I can tell you that while, yes, I can now pop out to go to Starbucks at 3 p.m. without anyone giving me a look, it's far harder to plan vacations and even long weekends. Some editor, at some publication, is going to be working those days, and they're going to be expecting to be able to reach me (and if they don't reach me, I always run the risk that they'll find someone else next time).
The other point I wanted to make was about fees. Print publications -- while perhaps far harder to break into than online (I started as an intern in college -- a major computer magazine tended to raid my school for free summer labor -- and that got my foot in the door, where it has been jammed ever since) -- generally pay far above the rates Justin mentioned (for one thing, they generally pay by the word, and at a higher rate than the typical Web site. That said, it still leaves a lot to be desired). Plus, a clever freelancer will find ways to 'repurpose' content, writing about similar things for different outlets, so he's not starting from square one on work each time (of course, some outlets -- particular print publications -- have strict rules about this, though there is usually wiggle room, particularly if they like you (and more importantly, your writing). Maybe game reviews work differently, but this is generally how it goes with freelance journalism.
All that said, Justin raises a very valid point: When reviews are assigned to freelancers, it is almost impossible for them to go through products/games as throughly as readers may expect (or, rightly, demand). For this, blame the publication. Whether online or print, most media outlets work on tight budgets (they have money, but it's going to the sales guys and the PR events, not the writers and editors and art directors -- because that, alas, is how journalism works). They've decimated their in-house staffs so there are precious few staff writers (who COULD afford to play with games and products thoroughly because they're getting a set paycheck each week no matter what they work on), and increasingly, they're relying on freelancers. But because they generally want their freelancers to work cheap (and even print publications pay far less than they should), and freelancers need to eat, it is impractical for them to spend 40 hours with a product and THEN write and re-write a review. Keep in mind, too, that most editors assign reviews on short notice and expect quick turnarounds. So considering all of these factors, the sad truth is, unless the system changes, you're only going to see an increasing amount of 'cursory' reviews. I love my job -- I just wish I was given the resources I need to do it even better. And I'm sure every other freelancer out there would agree. None of us do it for the money (that's what marriage and Lotto are for), but gee -- the mags and sites really need to get their act together if, long-term, they're going to keep their readers happy.[/QUOTE]
Good points, all. Just a few notes:
Print does indeed pay better than online on average (they also usually have shorter word counts), but I stuck to talking about online stories as they're more realistic for the average gamer to get, what with lead times and use of freelancers.
Most outlets put in your contract that they will not allow repurposing in whole or in part. However, I've been able to write a review for Newtype, say, and one for Yahoo based on the same game and play time. But I generally couldn't write one for Games Radar and then port it over to GameSpy.
First, it's sort of a myth that freelancers make their own hours. Yes, you almost never work the typical nine-to-five (or nine-to-seven-plus, as most journalism jobs tend to be), but freelancing is a feast or famine sort of gig, and when works is offered, it's hard to say no (you start thinking of everything you can buy with that paycheck). Once you take an assignment, your editor's schedule is now your schedule. Multiply that by several simultaneous assignments (if you're lucky enough to get them) and you can see that a successful freelancer has very little room to carve out downtime on their own terms. Having worked as both a staff writer (meaning, I worked at and for a specific magazine) and a freelancer, I can tell you that while, yes, I can now pop out to go to Starbucks at 3 p.m. without anyone giving me a look, it's far harder to plan vacations and even long weekends. Some editor, at some publication, is going to be working those days, and they're going to be expecting to be able to reach me (and if they don't reach me, I always run the risk that they'll find someone else next time).
The other point I wanted to make was about fees. Print publications -- while perhaps far harder to break into than online (I started as an intern in college -- a major computer magazine tended to raid my school for free summer labor -- and that got my foot in the door, where it has been jammed ever since) -- generally pay far above the rates Justin mentioned (for one thing, they generally pay by the word, and at a higher rate than the typical Web site. That said, it still leaves a lot to be desired). Plus, a clever freelancer will find ways to 'repurpose' content, writing about similar things for different outlets, so he's not starting from square one on work each time (of course, some outlets -- particular print publications -- have strict rules about this, though there is usually wiggle room, particularly if they like you (and more importantly, your writing). Maybe game reviews work differently, but this is generally how it goes with freelance journalism.
All that said, Justin raises a very valid point: When reviews are assigned to freelancers, it is almost impossible for them to go through products/games as throughly as readers may expect (or, rightly, demand). For this, blame the publication. Whether online or print, most media outlets work on tight budgets (they have money, but it's going to the sales guys and the PR events, not the writers and editors and art directors -- because that, alas, is how journalism works). They've decimated their in-house staffs so there are precious few staff writers (who COULD afford to play with games and products thoroughly because they're getting a set paycheck each week no matter what they work on), and increasingly, they're relying on freelancers. But because they generally want their freelancers to work cheap (and even print publications pay far less than they should), and freelancers need to eat, it is impractical for them to spend 40 hours with a product and THEN write and re-write a review. Keep in mind, too, that most editors assign reviews on short notice and expect quick turnarounds. So considering all of these factors, the sad truth is, unless the system changes, you're only going to see an increasing amount of 'cursory' reviews. I love my job -- I just wish I was given the resources I need to do it even better. And I'm sure every other freelancer out there would agree. None of us do it for the money (that's what marriage and Lotto are for), but gee -- the mags and sites really need to get their act together if, long-term, they're going to keep their readers happy.[/QUOTE]
Good points, all. Just a few notes:
Print does indeed pay better than online on average (they also usually have shorter word counts), but I stuck to talking about online stories as they're more realistic for the average gamer to get, what with lead times and use of freelancers.
Most outlets put in your contract that they will not allow repurposing in whole or in part. However, I've been able to write a review for Newtype, say, and one for Yahoo based on the same game and play time. But I generally couldn't write one for Games Radar and then port it over to GameSpy.
Ya know...I don't comment negatively on these types of things normally. I realize there is a lot of hard work that goes into it and as someone who gets to enjoy it for free, I don't really feel that its right to harp on the stuff I don't enjoy. However, I have to say that you have created a Pavlovian response within me to want to violently throttle the nearest person anytime the world "Oblivion" is mentioned. Seriously. SHUT UP ABOUT OBLIVION. My sanity can't take it anymore. I bought the game...didn't like it and sold it back after 3 weeks. I thought that was the end of it. But no. I hear it mentioned it week after week after week after week after week. Even if its not mentioned at length, its still mentioned. Please....just stop. Stop.
I also think that in order for the show to grow, you can't be so dismissive of criticism. The person who mentioned the negative tone of the show was just dismissed out right. If I recall, you went as far as to say "don't listen." Sorry, but that came across as defensive and a bit "prick-ish" for lack of a better work. Whether you agree or not, I too have noticed a overall negative tone to the show. If you're so lazy that you can't turn on your Wii once a week, find a correspondant who will. If wombat doesn't want to buy a PS3, chat with someone who does. I love my Xbox 360, but its seriously the only system you cover in any kind of well-rounded way. This podcast is at its most enjoyable when you guys are pumped and excited about something. Lately, I just ain't feeling it. I think the interviews have been well received because it a chance to hear something other than the same old thing we've heard for months.
Even with all that, I really do enjoy the show. You guys do some great work and deserve all the success this show brings you. Just don't mention oblivion...
I also think that in order for the show to grow, you can't be so dismissive of criticism. The person who mentioned the negative tone of the show was just dismissed out right. If I recall, you went as far as to say "don't listen." Sorry, but that came across as defensive and a bit "prick-ish" for lack of a better work. Whether you agree or not, I too have noticed a overall negative tone to the show. If you're so lazy that you can't turn on your Wii once a week, find a correspondant who will. If wombat doesn't want to buy a PS3, chat with someone who does. I love my Xbox 360, but its seriously the only system you cover in any kind of well-rounded way. This podcast is at its most enjoyable when you guys are pumped and excited about something. Lately, I just ain't feeling it. I think the interviews have been well received because it a chance to hear something other than the same old thing we've heard for months.
Even with all that, I really do enjoy the show. You guys do some great work and deserve all the success this show brings you. Just don't mention oblivion...
[quote name='madmook']Can someone identify the little jig that intros the 1st section of the violentlee interview? Thanks in advance.[/quote]
It's music from Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Check the show notes on the first page of this thread, Cheapy always lists the intro and outro music, as well as other links to what was discussed.
It's music from Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Check the show notes on the first page of this thread, Cheapy always lists the intro and outro music, as well as other links to what was discussed.
H
Hired.Geek
Guest
agapens
Oblivion, Oblivion, and Oblivion.
OK now that I am done with my childish rant. Lets ask ourselves why Cheapy and Wombat are talking about Oblivion. And the great thing about it is that is has very little to do with the XBox 360. Oblivion just came out on the PS3, and the expansion pack just came out for the PC and 360.
Cheapy and Wombat are not talking very much about the Wii because like many of us who own a Wii we are not finding new material to talk about it. To quote Luke Smith of 1UP "It's a F&*&king Zelda game playing machine....", and while I am sure that many out there enjoy the Wii, I think there are a growing numbers of Wii's are just sitting quietly on shelves. Listen to the 1UP yours podcast of 03/23/2007, they go into allot of detail about the similarities of the Gamecube release and the Wii release.
As for the PS3, here again I agree with Cheapy mine sits back and does allot of folding now. I watched the new James Bond flick on it but other then that it has been doing allot of sitting. Now this spring and fall when some great exculsive titles start pouring out that may change in a hurry.
I guess in short Cheapy and Wombat can not create the news, well except for Wombat and his five knucle shuffle situation, but when it comes to video game news they simply report. If there is not much happening on a platform all you can do is sit and wait for something to happen.
Oblivion, Oblivion, and Oblivion.
OK now that I am done with my childish rant. Lets ask ourselves why Cheapy and Wombat are talking about Oblivion. And the great thing about it is that is has very little to do with the XBox 360. Oblivion just came out on the PS3, and the expansion pack just came out for the PC and 360.
Cheapy and Wombat are not talking very much about the Wii because like many of us who own a Wii we are not finding new material to talk about it. To quote Luke Smith of 1UP "It's a F&*&king Zelda game playing machine....", and while I am sure that many out there enjoy the Wii, I think there are a growing numbers of Wii's are just sitting quietly on shelves. Listen to the 1UP yours podcast of 03/23/2007, they go into allot of detail about the similarities of the Gamecube release and the Wii release.
As for the PS3, here again I agree with Cheapy mine sits back and does allot of folding now. I watched the new James Bond flick on it but other then that it has been doing allot of sitting. Now this spring and fall when some great exculsive titles start pouring out that may change in a hurry.
I guess in short Cheapy and Wombat can not create the news, well except for Wombat and his five knucle shuffle situation, but when it comes to video game news they simply report. If there is not much happening on a platform all you can do is sit and wait for something to happen.
[quote name='madmook']Can someone identify the little jig that intros the 1st section of the violentlee interview? Thanks in advance.[/quote]
www.leekspin.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loituma_Girl
www.leekspin.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loituma_Girl
tenchu was and still is in my opinion the best stealth action game ever. it sucks that the later installments never fully lived up to what the first game brought to the ps1 but they were still ok to play. i especially loved the music in tenchu 1 it set the mood perfectly and wwas good enough to listen to on its own. but tenchu is defintly a game franchise that needs a shot in the arm and one way to do that would be to have online ninja missions.
have lets say 20 or more people playing in game worlds as ninja and samurai either defending the shogun or there to assasinate him. but to really make this work youd need a deeper sword and hand to hand combat system because as cool as the stealth kills were the one on one fighting sucked.
and as far as games being sold to the right people i wrote to the esrb a while back that stores should have parents sign responsibility waivers if they decide to buy their underaged kids mature or adult games. that way if their kids are sheepy enough to emulate what goes on in the game the stores arent responsible.
have lets say 20 or more people playing in game worlds as ninja and samurai either defending the shogun or there to assasinate him. but to really make this work youd need a deeper sword and hand to hand combat system because as cool as the stealth kills were the one on one fighting sucked.
and as far as games being sold to the right people i wrote to the esrb a while back that stores should have parents sign responsibility waivers if they decide to buy their underaged kids mature or adult games. that way if their kids are sheepy enough to emulate what goes on in the game the stores arent responsible.
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bread's done