California Farmers Can't Find Enough Americans to Work in the Fields

depascal22

depascal22

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100927/ap_on_bi_ge/us_immigration_jobs


I read the same article in the paper this morning. Basically, California Employment Development Department data shows that 233 Americans have applied for 1,160 agricultural jobs.

One farmer is paying $10.25 an hour to trim strawberry plants near the Nevada border. It's difficult work in sweltering temperatures but it really does blow holes in the whole, "Derr takin our jobz" theory.

Any takers on the right wing that would like to explain why "Real 'Mericans" won't take these jobs and what we should do if we can't hire illegal immigrants at $10.25 an hour?
 
Visa vouchers for immigrants?

But the red tape needs to significantly be reduced to about 10% of what it is right now for Visas.

If NAFTA can ship jobs to other nations, I can't see much opposition to have temporary immigrants come across the border to work for the season.
 
[quote name='xycury']Visa vouchers for immigrants?

But the red tape needs to significantly be reduced to about 10% of what it is right now for Visas.

If NAFTA can ship jobs to other nations, I can't see much opposition to have temporary immigrants come across the border to work for the season.[/QUOTE]

That sounds like an extremely fair and simple solution.

But why won't Americans take the jobs?
 
[quote name='depascal22']But why won't Americans take the jobs?[/QUOTE]

Because it's hard labor and nobody wants to do that shit (let alone move) for $10 an hour? It is also only seasonal work.

- edit Or maybe these commentators on Yahoo are right

Does America want people in the fields that demand a bathroom or water? These big Ag companies would not hire teenagers or the unemployed. They want slave labor and they get it now. We when to war over this 150 years ago. Big farmers dont want to hire workers they want slaves. This will never change. Yes I would work in the fields but not like a animal. Remember the bad spinach that the guy when to the bathroom on? Built farms with bathrooms and I will be there.Thanks
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There are a number of reasons why California is not the best indicator of how willing most Americans are to take farm jobs, and here's why:

#1. BIGOTRY. Nowhere in America is bigotry against American farmers stronger than in California. Just having that job on your resume disqualifies a typical Californian from any respectable job later on. White farmers are perceived by Californians as conservative - a big no-no in CA.

#2. LACK OF SKILL. White California natives have little experience with farming, unlike white children from other parts of the country. California kids grow up spoiled, with the highest expectations of everything for their adult lives. They not only dream of working in Hollywood, but fully expect to as adults. Their parents weren't farmers, so why should they be?

#3. COMFY ALTERNATIVES. More than any other state, California will willingly care for the voluntarily unemployed. After all, people come to California with big dreams, so why should they settle for boring work? And NO native Californian should ever get so poor as to have to leave California for some humble midwestern American state (gasp! possibly a red state!), even if they refuse to work. They'd rather pan-handle than farm, which is perfectly legal and allowed on CA streets, even harassing tourists (natives are more important than visitors to this state). In a state where you can poop on the streets, the weather's always warm, and tourists will always pay you to leave them alone, why farm?

BTW, the illegal farmers are the least of our concerns. Most people wanting to send illegals home are upset about stolen construction jobs, and those who steal SS#s to work in companies, like the 11 caught working at Panda Express. But the greatest concern is crime: revolving door gangsters and murderers, and identity thieves never caught to begin with.
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And apparently, half the people commenting on that story worked in the fields when they were teenagers :rofl:
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Because it's hard labor and nobody wants to do that shit (let alone move) for $10 an hour.[/QUOTE]


Pretty much, It's hard to work on farms period, and most would have to live on site and no one wants to do that...

I would say if there was some work-around with the homeless, say farmers put up room and board, and somewhat fair wages, that we could turn our poverty problem around in a few years.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Because it's hard labor and nobody wants to do that shit (let alone move) for $10 an hour? It is also only seasonal work.[/QUOTE]

I know you know this.

I'm waiting for Knoell, Bob, thrust, RAM, or troy to come in and say that unions (or Fascist Socialist Santa) are to blame.

I'm waiting for a rational response from the right as to why Americans won't take the jobs that are supposedly being "stolen" by illegal immigrants.

And I'd say that $10.25 is a fair wage for unskilled labor.

EDIT -- California isn't the only state that unemployment offices were tasked with these jobs. It seems that Texas, Nevada, and Arizona workers were also too good to pick strawberries.
 
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[quote name='Sporadic']Because it's hard labor and nobody wants to do that shit (let alone move) for $10 an hour? It is also only seasonal work.[/QUOTE]

There we go. I worked plenty of times on farms to help out friends but I never did it as paid work. fuck that shit. Every farm I worked a pick line the workers got paid by how much you picked and not by the hour so a fast worker could make (not much) more money. It's a long, boring grind but I wouldn't say it's particularly back breaking work. Off the top of my head: moving, framing, roofing, demo and form work (concrete) are much harder jobs. It is, however, boring as hell and just about every boss is a prick. After having a taste of better[unskilled] work it is hard to go back. The downtime is also incredibly boring and there's nothing to but eat pills or get drunk.

This was in a 'good' state (VT) where farmers are well respected by the community and workers were given a pretty fair shake due to demand from the community. I have a feeling things are worse in other states.

[quote name='xycury']I would say if there was some work-around with the homeless, say farmers put up room and board, and somewhat fair wages, that we could turn our poverty problem around in a few years.[/QUOTE]

Negative. Purely anecdotal again but the vast majority of the homeless are that way for a reason. If the logistics could be worked out to get temporary workers here and back again the system would work much better IMO. They just work much harder (anecdotal) and take instructions better.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I know you know this.

I'm waiting for Knoell, Bob, thrust, RAM, or troy to come in and say that unions (or Fascist Socialist Santa) are to blame.

I'm waiting for a rational response from the right as to why Americans won't take the jobs that are supposedly being "stolen" by illegal immigrants.

And I'd say that $10.25 is a fair wage for unskilled labor.

EDIT -- California isn't the only state that unemployment offices were tasked with these jobs. It seems that Texas, Nevada, and Arizona workers were also too good to pick strawberries.[/QUOTE]

Why aren't legal immigrants working these jobs either? :roll: $10.25 isn't bad pay either.
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']There we go. I worked plenty of times on farms to help out friends but I never did it as paid work. fuck that shit. Every farm I worked a pick line the workers got paid by how much you picked and not by the hour so a fast worker could make (not much) more money. It's a long, boring grind but I wouldn't say it's particularly back breaking work. Off the top of my head: moving, framing, roofing, demo and form work (concrete) are much harder jobs. It is, however, boring as hell and just about every boss is a prick. After having a taste of better[unskilled] work it is hard to go back. The downtime is also incredibly boring and there's nothing to but eat pills or get drunk.

This was in a 'good' state (VT) where farmers are well respected by the community and workers were given a pretty fair shake due to demand from the community. I have a feeling things are worse in other states.



Negative. Purely anecdotal again but the vast majority of the homeless are that way for a reason. If the logistics could be worked out to get temporary workers here and back again the system would work much better IMO. They just work much harder (anecdotal) and take instructions better.[/QUOTE]

It is worse in California's Central Valley. Also depends upon the level of machinery maintained, as well as the job itself. Things like Grapes are not that bad (although I still have a few scars on my hand from the fucking vines cutting me because I was a dumbass) but raking walnuts seriously messes up your shoulders. Differing climates are also a burden weighed differently, 110 of dry heat is worse than say a state with 90. But that is only my experience working in Cali.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Why aren't legal immigrants working these jobs either? :roll: $10.25 isn't bad pay either.[/QUOTE]

Redirecting with another question in your usual style? My issue is that the Republican Party has gone on the warpath about illegals "stealing" jobs that regular hard working Americans would love to have. This article is just one of many that prove that wrong.

Instead of redirecting with a question, prove the article wrong.

As of right now, farmers can either hire illegals at $10.25/hr or raise wages and prices on strawberries.

Do you think Americans will pay $10/pound for strawberries and do you think farmers will let fruit rot on the vines if they can't hire legal workers?

EDIT -- Thanks cochese and cinder for sharing your experiences in the fields. It's super hard work and I know most of us don't WANT to do it. I wonder how many will do it next year when their unemployment benefits run dry. It's a whole other issue where physical labor is way less attractive than doing nothing while on unemployment.
 
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Big business killed the family farm and noone has a personal stake in taking a seasonal job of back-breaking work for barely over minimum wage.

Put farms back in the hands of small farmers, give them the same subsidies and tax breaks that big agribusiness gets, and you'll see a return of Americans to the land.
 
I'd do some work on an Heirloom, Organic farm if I get a share of the crops.

Also in California, $10.25 isn't necessarily a lot of money or even decent. If you were talking about another state then I'd agree with you knoell.
 
[quote name='camoor']Big business killed the family farm and noone has a personal stake in taking a seasonal job of back-breaking work for barely over minimum wage.

Put farms back in the hands of small farmers, give them the same subsidies and tax breaks that big agribusiness gets, and you'll see a return of Americans to the land.[/QUOTE]

I think 3 things need to happen.

1) Trade policy that protects American farmers.
2) End the mileage exemption to make small, local farming viable.
3) While I might have some tax breaks for the small, new farm operations, I would end the vast majority of farm related subsidies (particularly corn).

None of these things will happen.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm waiting for Knoell, Bob, thrust, RAM, or troy to come in and say that unions (or Fascist Socialist Santa) are to blame.

I'm waiting for a rational response from the right as to why Americans won't take the jobs that are supposedly being "stolen" by illegal immigrants.[/QUOTE]

I've said in every topic where you try to talk about illegals taking jobs that I think that is a stupid idea and not worth talking about. I have no clue why there are so many unemployed idiots in California that would rather take their unemployment check instead of working a paying job.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I think 3 things need to happen.

1) Trade policy that protects American farmers.
2) End the mileage exemption to make small, local farming viable.
3) While I might have some tax breaks for the small, new farm operations, I would end the vast majority of farm related subsidies (particularly corn).

None of these things will happen.[/QUOTE]

Sure, true, true, and very true.

[quote name='perdition(troy']I've said in every topic where you try to talk about illegals taking jobs that I think that is a stupid idea and not worth talking about. I have no clue why there are so many unemployed idiots in California that would rather take their unemployment check instead of working a paying job.[/QUOTE]

I'd love to see you work one day in the field for big business. It'd be funnier then that time the Fox news reporter got waterboarded.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']I grew up in Wisconsin. What do you think I did during summers in High School?[/QUOTE]

Some jokes are just too easy.
 
[quote name='camoor']I'd love to see you work one day in the field for big business. It'd be funnier then that time the Fox news reporter got waterboarded.[/QUOTE]
Funnier than Glenn Back and Sean Hannity? Tough call there.;)
 
[quote name='depascal22']I know you know this.

I'm waiting for Knoell, Bob, thrust, RAM, or troy to come in and say that unions (or Fascist Socialist Santa) are to blame.

I'm waiting for a rational response from the right as to why Americans won't take the jobs that are supposedly being "stolen" by illegal immigrants.

And I'd say that $10.25 is a fair wage for unskilled labor.

EDIT -- California isn't the only state that unemployment offices were tasked with these jobs. It seems that Texas, Nevada, and Arizona workers were also too good to pick strawberries.[/QUOTE]

well, the article touches on several reasons why. theyre poorly advertised, seasons, may require great distance of travel (near the nevada border for example) and employers prefer to hire illegals.

yes, $10.25 is a decent wage. moving your life and family to the border isnt a viable option for many people, neither is commuting. no doubt, the $10.25 number is one of, if not the highest wage they could find for the article as most undoubtedly pay less.

also, the "Derr takin our jobz" as you put it doesnt apply to farm work and hasnt for decades. when thats brought it up generally used for things like factories and construction.

edit: forgot the part where a lot of people would actually take a pay cut trading in their unemployment check for a job in farm labor.
 
I've never worked on a farm, but I have picked strawberries for my own use. It is hard work, certainly not something I'd want to do for a living. At the same time though, if you're complaining about illegals taking jobs, and you're refusing to take some of them back (no matter the industry) you don't really have a leg to stand on.

So it's basiclaly ok that they're taking agriculture jobs that nobody wants, but we need to stop them from taking construction and factory jobs?
 
[quote name='Clak']
So it's basiclaly ok that they're taking agriculture jobs that nobody wants, but we need to stop them from taking construction and factory jobs?[/QUOTE]

no, my point is they havent "taken" agriculture jobs for decades. the stealing jobs argument thats evolved over the last several years is primarily because of blue collar jobs that are now being affected by illegals.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']no, my point is they havent "taken" agriculture jobs for decades. the stealing jobs argument thats evolved over the last several years is primarily because of blue collar jobs that are now being affected by illegals.[/QUOTE]

You mean the jobs that they get by standing down at the super secret Lowe's at 5am? The ones that anyone could get but won't get up early enough to compete for them?

As for commuting, I've worked a temporary job where I commuted from Dayton to Indianapolis. It's tough but doable to commute long distances to support your family.
 
You know what is actually funny, as much as conervatives love the free market, it's the free market that allows cheap foreign labor to drive down wages for everyone else. If an illegal will do a job for less than a legal citizen, who do you think will be hired? Now we could have (big) government stop the flow of illegals and deport the ones already here, but isn't that interfering with the free market for labor? That's driving away the cheap labor and helping raise prices back up.
 
[quote name='depascal22']You mean the jobs that they get by standing down at the super secret Lowe's at 5am? The ones that anyone could get but won't get up early enough to compete for them?

As for commuting, I've worked a temporary job where I commuted from Dayton to Indianapolis. It's tough but doable to commute long distances to support your family.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure plenty of people would make a long commute for a white collar job or decent paying blue collar work. Would you have driven 2 hours or so to pick strawberries in a field for $6 bucks an hour if you we're getting paid more in your unemployment check?

And no, I'm not talking about a guy at Lowe's who gets hired to help build a deck or lay sod for a day or two. I'm talking about illegals who are working in construction, factories and such for 40+ hours a week in long term permanent jobs. I have seen gringos outside of hardware stores increasingly, but they are still the minority. One guy hangs out at the local OSH every day (I drive by it semi-regularly) with a sign that says "Out of work contractor etc etc", but again, he's the exception.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']I'm sure plenty of people would make a long commute for a white collar job or decent paying blue collar work. Would you have driven 2 hours or so to pick strawberries in a field for $6 bucks an hour if you we're getting paid more in your unemployment check?

And no, I'm not talking about a guy at Lowe's who gets hired to help build a deck or lay sod for a day or two. I'm talking about illegals who are working in construction, factories and such for 40+ hours a week in long term permanent jobs. I have seen gringos outside of hardware stores increasingly, but they are still the minority. One guy hangs out at the local OSH every day (I drive by it semi-regularly) with a sign that says "Out of work contractor etc etc", but again, he's the exception.[/QUOTE]

An old contractor friend of mine commutes from Minneapolis to Indianapolis when work dries up over there. He makes very little but he couch surfs and rarely goes home to see his family in order to save up enough cash to pay the mortgage.

Another contractor I know prefers Hispanics (regardless of legal status) over Whites and Blacks because Americans demand ridiculous amounts of breaks and stop working every time a call or text message comes in. He told me a funny story where one kid worked for two hours, finished one of the three jobs he was supposed to do and proceeded to demand a raise. He didn't get it so he literally threw a hammer at a wall as he stormed out.

I know these are just anecdotes but they just show (along with the story) that Americans aren't willing to work hard for low pay.
 
Would conservatives view this as evidence that we need to 'wean' people off of unemployment? Remember unemployment is definitely a great stimulus, right?
 
[quote name='depascal22']I know these are just anecdotes but they just show (along with the story) that Americans aren't willing to work hard for low pay. [/quote]

Aside from rehashing the same old arguments again and again, I would like to take a moment to thank depascal for this exact statement as to why our country so badly needs welfare/entitlement reform.

Here, he freely admits that there are jobs available, but that people refuse to work. These people deserve ZERO taxpayer dollars.
 
How do you determine which ones 'these people' are Bob? If there are 100 open jobs but 1000 people on unemployment, how do you make that determination.
 
[quote name='IRHari']How do you determine which ones 'these people' are Bob? If there are 100 open jobs but 1000 people on unemployment, how do you make that determination.[/QUOTE]

How many of those 1,000 people are qualified for the job, applied for it and made an honest effort to show up for any interview process?
 
I'm pretty sure the interview process is pretty simple for a strawberry picking job. Do you have fingers? Can you survive in the heat? Yes to both? You're hired.

Maybe the unemployment policy needs to be adjusted. I'm not saying you should be forced to work in the fields right away but there has to be a time frame where you're allowed to look for work in your field of expertise and then you have to take the first available job. Nobody wants to work retail, fast food, or manual labor but there has to be a limit to the time you're allowed to sit around on our dime. I was thinking a year is more than fair.
 
I highly doubt its quite as simple as just americans dont want the job.

Im sure it has something to do with the fact not many americans can afford to travel for 10.25 an hour for a seasonal job. Plus its just seasonal, its not a real job with benefits for their family or something solid they can depend on.

I didnt grow up on a strawberry farm but I did grow up on a tobacco farm and any of that shit outside is hard when your hot. I wouldnt drive 45 minutes one way for 10 bucks an hour for part time seasonal work like that.

10.25 isnt bad for a illegal because they arent paying taxes, they arent buying tags for their cars, they arent paying home owners insurance, they arent paying for medical insurance, car insurance, they dont renew their drivers licenses or any of the other 274 things american citizens have to pay for out of pocket constantly just in order to live a normal life in this country. They are illegal so they dont have to pay for all that shit we do.

To a mexican its all profit that goes in his pocket and then will work for it because its worth more to them. Illegal comes over here, makes some cash and sends it back home and the value jumps way up. So yeah a mexican will do it because our money back at his home is worth more, to him he is making double what we pay him. Worst part of that is the money doesnt even go into our economy, some of it might but the bulk goes back to mexico.
 
I worked for less than that without benefits while I was getting my business off the ground. At that point, I'd do any honest work to pay the rent and put food on the table.

I also made a little more than that to travel to Dayton for a week at a time. That was for a three month temporary assignment.

Americans are lazy plain and simple. It's not a liberal entitlement or compassionate conservative trait. It's a cultural trait that's rotting us at our core. The upper middle class white guy doesn't even want to cut his own grass. The poor black ghetto birds don't want to get off welfare. Nobody wants to work, period.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I think 3 things need to happen.

1) Trade policy that protects American farmers.
2) End the mileage exemption to make small, local farming viable.
3) While I might have some tax breaks for the small, new farm operations, I would end the vast majority of farm related subsidies (particularly corn).

None of these things will happen.[/QUOTE]

1.I don't disagree and find it ridiculous ANYONE could justify a food trade policy not slanted more towards a local food system. Seriously I see the Organic market getting fucked up, with Costco selling Organic BROCCOLI from China. If you ask me that should have to be plastered with a big label on front. The same goes for anything else you can easily grow here but you sell from somewhere else because you're a greedy sob.
I'm sorry but America's economic security shouldn't be for sale and this is a huge part of it. If America's own food system is destroyed and we end up relying mostly on imports they've won, they've infantalized us. All they must do(our government, foreign government, etc.) is concoct a "foreign"/foreign attack and most people will fall in line.
2.Explain this to me.
3.I especially agree on Corn. I also think GMO's in general should be banned being subsidized. We have no idea of the possible harm it does to human beings short term. I suspect they even damage the human genome.
 
Woah, woah, woah, what's all this shitting on piece-rate work about? Piece-rate is awesome! I mean, so long as your employer's not sleazy as fuck.

But even with our industry sort-of falling apart, I still got fair pay for what I did. Assuming Californian farms aren't collapsing, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to make a half-way decent amount of money working piece-rate for them. If travel distance is a problem, camp close to work? It's what we do.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']
2.Explain this to me.[/QUOTE]
FoC (I think) would probably know better, as I first heard the idea espoused by him. My understanding of the matter is that because you can write off X cents per mile driven, a salad whose components traveled 3000 miles is price competitive with one that traveled 30 miles. The would be difference in cost is subsidized. If this goes away, the one megafarm that ships everywhere in the country is going to start seeing more local competition. That competition might be from other megafarms that just happen to be closer. Worst case, the food still travels less, even if its from the same people.
 
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