California Highspeed Rail

cindersphere

cindersphere

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Okay so I decided to put this here because this is a two part post.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/09/MNH91LRJL8.DTL

First of all for any Californians, the price of the entire project has nearly tripled to a staggering 98.9 Billion dollars or so. What is your current opinion now that the new plan has been unveiled to start construction in sparsely populated areas where there is not a good chance that the initial investment in these areas will generate decent income.

Secondly, hopefully someone like speed can point me to some resources to find out what my rights are in this whole debacle, I am one of the lucky Californians that currently lives at a residence that they want to tear down the HSR. Mainly because the are I live in is a sparsely populated area and the local cities of Fresno and Hanford have pushed back hard enough that they want to take shit from the poorer parts of the state. Does anybody have any clue on what my rights are here? Is it likely they will use something like emminent domain to take the house I live in now? Any information would be helpful in this area.

edit- fixed million to billion and misspelled eminent.
 
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California high speed rail is a scam... they planned to build the first part from Borden to Corcoran... I have no idea where these cities are, but one of them is apparently best known for a prison and the other for a Chinese cemetery...

If they start building, they'll either go broke and stop or if they finish the line, then no one will use it and they'll go broke...

It is a scam to get voters to approve stupid bond measures and to get some federal money...
 
[quote name='The Crotch']God dammit.

We already used the monorail song in another thread.[/QUOTE]

The ring came off my pudding can...eh eh...come on you know you want to!
 
Provided it's done well, public transportation is a self-fulfilling prophecy IE if you build a station the people will come. In the DC area I've seen edge cities blossom around metro stops and gentrification occur in just a couple decades - it really is quite remarkable.

Sorry about your house OP - but if you want to make an omelette you have to crack a few eggs.
 
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have an efficient rail system.

However, starting to build one during one of the worst recessions ever when the state is broke is perhaps a set up for failure.

Also, building the first part from Middle of Nowhere, California to Podunk, California will not cause those cities to blossom... it is another set up for failure.

California's government is more dysfunctional than even our federal government. I have absolutely no faith in them to be able to do anything right.
 
When it comes to eminent domain, the government body that's taking the property will generally offer a payment based on the assessed value through property taxes, which depending on the locality, might not be the same as market value. This is why artificially low property taxes can work against you.

The laws are pretty state specific, so if you want to fight it, I'd suggest looking for local legal counsel. Either way, the deck is heavily stacked against you, unless you manage to build a huge coalition of neighborhood groups and possibly have an official referendum.

If it's true that the bigger cities are using their weight, coalition building will be even more important. I'm assuming that there are already neighborhood groups in place as liasons to the municipalities, so that you should be able to stop in to a local one to see what's going on with the land grab.
 
Seems like they're doing it terribly inefficiently, but high speed rails are definitely needed in the US. And the two most obvious areas that could really benefit from it are the West Coast and East Coast.

Having ridden high speed rail in other countries, I'd love it here. Vastly superior to flying despite being slower IMO due to not having as much security hassle, being able to use your phone, being able to get up and use the restroom whenever you want, larger seats etc. etc.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']

First of all for any Californians, the price of the entire project has nearly tripled to a staggering 98.9 million dollars or so. [/QUOTE]

100 billion.

It's never going to happen. I don't want it to happen. We've already wasted billions on it. It needs to stop now.
 
[quote name='62t']Don't forget the number of jobs it will create.[/QUOTE]

rather myopic viewpoint. While it may only take 100 people to plunk down the rail it creates economic opportunity outside of those 100. People need to transport equipment to and fro, tools/machinery used on site (they don't grow on trees and the govt doesn't build them etc...), the factory that builds the trains and so on and so forth.

But yeah, aN HSR going from the left side of the middle of nowhere to the right side of the middle of nowhere doesn't really do much of anything.
 
Is it a trial run or, is nimby too strong to get anything built in other places?

Eminent domain BTW.
 
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[quote name='cindersphere']I am one of the lucky Californians that currently lives at a residence that they want to tear down the HSR.[/QUOTE]

Congratulations! You're now part of that elite group of people who are expected to give up their property to benefit the "needs of the many".

It sucks and imminent domain laws are something that are grossly abused in this country, but no one seems to care much until it effects them directly... so I wish you all the luck in legally defending your property from those who believe it will benefit others more.
 
Good luck OP, once the government wants something, there isn't much you can do to stop them. Wish there was, but sadly there isn't. :(
 
[quote name='The Crotch']God dammit.

We already used the monorail song in another thread.[/QUOTE]
:rofl: First thing I thought of.
 
[quote name='BigT']California high speed rail is a scam... they planned to build the first part from Borden to Corcoran... I have no idea where these cities are, but one of them is apparently best known for a prison and the other for a Chinese cemetery...

If they start building, they'll either go broke and stop or if they finish the line, then no one will use it and they'll go broke...

It is a scam to get voters to approve stupid bond measures and to get some federal money...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Corcoran houses the crazies, like Manson and such. But there is this awesome chinese food place there where the owner used to call all the white people who came in round eyes. I loved that place.

[quote name='Msut77']Is it a trial run or, is nimby too strong to get anything built in other places?

Eminent domain BTW.[/QUOTE]

Not a trial run. Fresno already pushed them out of building there, and so did this smaller city called Hanford. Honestly this is probably now the path of least resistance. Although they still have to go through the local farmers but that shouldn't be too hard.

I guess people in the state are already moving to put an initiative on next years election to stop the project, and even if that doesn't pass then the state still has to be approve billions more in funding just for the central valley section. Beyond that apparently all of the private funding dried up as most of the investors thing the rail is dead. I guess I will just wait and see if the central valley will get a highway to nowhere or if this thing actually connects La to SF.

edit- I should also add that the 100 billion is just to build it. Additional funding would be required to actually get the required equipment and electricity to run it. So the end price should be closer to 160 or so billion from what I understand.
 
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Ideally, we would have a system that connects the major cities: San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco... however, building that whole stretch would be tough.

Going from San Diego to South Orange County would be a feasible stretch as a lot of the area between them is taken up by Camp Pendleton and wide open areas alongside the 5; plus, it's only about 60-80 miles depending on where you start/end. Going through Orange County and then up to LA would be tough as the whole area is quite densely built. Then going up to San Francisco would be limited by the greater distance...
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Congratulations! You're now part of that elite group of people who are expected to give up their property to benefit the "needs of the many".

It sucks and imminent domain laws are something that are grossly abused in this country, but no one seems to care much until it effects them directly... so I wish you all the luck in legally defending your property from those who believe it will benefit others more.[/QUOTE]

I don't necessarily disagree that imminent domain laws tend to be abused (that strip-mall-to-Target case comes to mind) however I'd like to know how you expect to commute anywhere without them.

Any idiot can see that the current transportation structure can't support present day demands let alone those of the future.
 
For the people here bitching about the HSR have you ever taken a quality long distance mass transit system? No....?
I can tell you taking the train in Japan is fucking awesome. Also the "If you build it they will come" bit really applies. There are some real businesses that have sprung up around them.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']For the people here bitching about the HSR have you ever taken a quality long distance mass transit system? No....?
I can tell you taking the train in Japan is fucking awesome. Also the "If you build it they will come" bit really applies. There are some real businesses that have sprung up around them.[/QUOTE]
I have, and it still kinda sucks. Just saying.
 
I'll never get the disdain so many Americans have for using public transit. I get the gripes about costs, residents being displaced etc.

But a good public transit system is a joy to have IMO. Driving is one of my least favorite activities in life. It's just utterly wasted time as you can't do anything fun or productive while behind the wheel. While on a train you can get work done, catch up on reading, play handheld games or whatever.

Add in that more often than not I end up in a bad mood after driving from road rage or being stuck in traffic and wasting more precious time etc. and I'd love to live in a country/city with an awesome public transit system. Will definitely be high on my list of desires when I look to move jobs in the future.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'll never get the disdain so many Americans have for using public transit. I get the gripes about costs, residents being displaced etc.

But a good public transit system is a joy to have IMO.[/QUOTE]

Likely, it's that "good" part.

Granted, I'm a country bumpkin' and we don't have much in the way of public transportation around here (The closest would probably be RIDES Mass Transit, which I *think* is a private company that gets public funding for bussing around those who can't drive (typically older and disabled individuals) to the grocery store, Walmart, etc.)... but when I think of public transportation, I think of giant subway rats, graffiti, muggings, people with BO, obnoxious people with boom boxes, annoying people yakking on their cell phone, opossums in the engine (I call the big one "Bitey".), etc.

Logically, I know this isn't really the case (do people really even still use boom boxes?). It's just the way Hollywood has framed public transportation for so long and so many Americans have never really been around any kind of large-scale public transportation that they're going to automatically have a negative opinion of it and they likely can't really explain why.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'll never get the disdain so many Americans have for using public transit. I get the gripes about costs, residents being displaced etc.

But a good public transit system is a joy to have IMO. Driving is one of my least favorite activities in life. It's just utterly wasted time as you can't do anything fun or productive while behind the wheel. While on a train you can get work done, catch up on reading, play handheld games or whatever.

Add in that more often than not I end up in a bad mood after driving from road rage or being stuck in traffic and wasting more precious time etc. and I'd love to live in a country/city with an awesome public transit system. Will definitely be high on my list of desires when I look to move jobs in the future.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but having done both there are a few drawbacks to public transportation:

1. Trains and subways are barely tolerable but local commuter buses are a hella complicated, poorly-run nightmare. If you're not next to the station then your commute is going to suck. They really need to bring back light rail.
2. There is always a segment of commuters that are sick, crazy, or lack proper hygene.
3. Folks are on edge after a day at work. One guy trying to cram onto an already crowded train can nearly cause a fistfight.
4. Cars give you options. Need to drop off at the store on the way home? Not a problem. Need to go pick someone up? Not a problem.

All in all PT is the way to go, but I see where the attraction of cars lies. I don't really care which system America goes with anymore, but if we're going to embrace cars then we should be prepared to build megabridges and 10 lanes of highway each way, because traffic jams are simply too great a waste of time and gas.
 
I'm not a huge fan of driving either...too paranoid of cops and accidents, so I barely go over the speed limit. Having lived in the city for 30 years, I miss being able to grab a seat on the train, turn up my music player, zone out until I get to my destination, and/or people watch. Being in a car feels like it detaches you from society.

Beyond the ability to buy the car I've lusted for since it's initial concept drawings, you just can't beat the convenience of the door-to-door service a car gives you. Not to mention being at the mercy of a public transit system that closes before businesses do, which is a big problem in Boston.
 
[quote name='camoor']I agree with you, but having done both there are a few drawbacks to public transportation:

1. Trains and subways are barely tolerable but local commuter buses are a hella complicated, poorly-run nightmare. If you're not next to the station then your commute is going to suck. They really need to bring back light rail.
2. There is always a segment of commuters that are sick, crazy, or lack proper hygene.
3. Folks are on edge after a day at work. One guy trying to cram onto an already crowded train can nearly cause a fistfight.
4. Cars give you options. Need to drop off at the store on the way home? Not a problem. Need to go pick someone up? Not a problem.

All in all PT is the way to go, but I see where the attraction of cars lies. I don't really care which system America goes with anymore, but if we're going to embrace cars then we should be prepared to build megabridges and 10 lanes of highway each way, because traffic jams are simply too great a waste of time and gas.[/QUOTE]

For sure. Busses definitely suck. The key is having the subway cover enough of the city so you can get most everywhere worth going just from the train and 10-15 minute walks. DC is pretty good in that regard, other than Georgetown. Atlanta where I'm at now is terrible in that regard.

The other things can mostly be avoided by trying not to ride during morning or evening rush hour. Morning is tough if you have a 9-5 type job. Evening is easier as you can just eat dinner out or go shopping or whatever to kill a couple hours.

Cars are definitely still super convenient for things like shopping and being able to go where ever you want whenever you want. I doubt I'd could ever do totally without a car. But I'd love to live somewhere I could easily take public transit to work and just use the car for going to the grocery store and to places outside the city etc.

Living on a fast train route is definitely the only way I'd ever consider living in the suburbs or beyond again as well. Not worth the drive, but a train ride isn't bad since it's time to work and relax rather than stress out in traffic.
 
[quote name='camoor']I agree with you, but having done both there are a few drawbacks to public transportation:

1. Trains and subways are barely tolerable but local commuter buses are a hella complicated, poorly-run nightmare. If you're not next to the station then your commute is going to suck. They really need to bring back light rail.
2. There is always a segment of commuters that are sick, crazy, or lack proper hygene.
3. Folks are on edge after a day at work. One guy trying to cram onto an already crowded train can nearly cause a fistfight.
4. Cars give you options. Need to drop off at the store on the way home? Not a problem. Need to go pick someone up? Not a problem.

All in all PT is the way to go, but I see where the attraction of cars lies. I don't really care which system America goes with anymore, but if we're going to embrace cars then we should be prepared to build megabridges and 10 lanes of highway each way, because traffic jams are simply too great a waste of time and gas.[/QUOTE]

Agree with you 100 percent. Plus I will say this, fucking Americans are assholes. When I was up in Seattle last year I used a commuter bus to get from where I was staying into the actual city, so I caught one of the early buses going into the city. Long story show pregnant lady gets on I am the only one that offers my seat. When we arrive she gets up and falls over when everybody starts doing that little rush to be the first ones and out. Four people step over her instead of helping the poor woman up and one actually does. Not a typical story, but this actually happened when I was riding in Seattle. Beyond that I never liked riding the Bart when I was living in that area.
 
Eminent domain is a relatively simple matter compared to the logistics of the rest of the project. Right of way acquisition costs on the Bay Area Peninsula are just 6% of that segment's budget. If they want your home they are going to go through the proper steps to take it and you'll be compensated fairly.

High speed rail is a good idea in America. The problem is that the way we do things makes projects much more expensive and unworkable than in other first-world nations. There are ways to bring high speed rail to America and California without it being such a clusterfuck. Unfortunately, the politicians are in charge and they're letting their friends at large construction firms decide how much concrete to pour. The answer, in most cases, is too much.

In America it's about cost maximization, not public utility maximization. If we had a good project, I'd watch with glee as they tore down your house. But we don't have a good project. Wrong overall route, wrong goal, wrong initial segment. The time, however, was 30 years ago.

There are steps being taken to scale back to the project to a more reasonable level and put some grown-ups in charge, but the wheels of large infrastructure projects move slowly.
 
One thing I'll add is that commuter rail, high speed trains etc. are very different than the subway.

The one's I've been on in the US and abroad are much bigger and cleaner with tons of leg room, plenty of room to work etc.

Subways are always going to be dirtier, more crowded, have more disorderly people on them etc. due to being in the city, cheaper and designed to just move people around--most of who are only on for 10-20 minutes. Where as the commuter rail systems go further out and have more people riding for 30+ minutes, cost more for tickets etc.

That said, I will note that subways in a lot of other countries are cleaner and nicer than most subways I've been on in the US. But in any case, the subway would just be the last few minutes of a public transit work commute for people out in the far suburbs, so it's more important that the commuter rails system be enticing than for the subway to be anything more than safe and quick.
 
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[quote name='Spokker']Eminent domain is a relatively simple matter compared to the logistics of the rest of the project. Right of way acquisition costs on the Bay Area Peninsula are just 6% of that segment's budget. If they want your home they are going to go through the proper steps to take it and you'll be compensated fairly.

High speed rail is a good idea in America. The problem is that the way we do things makes projects much more expensive and unworkable than in other first-world nations. There are ways to bring high speed rail to America and California without it being such a clusterfuck. Unfortunately, the politicians are in charge and they're letting their friends at large construction firms decide how much concrete to pour. The answer, in most cases, is too much.

In America it's about cost maximization, not public utility maximization. If we had a good project, I'd watch with glee as they tore down your house. But we don't have a good project. Wrong overall route, wrong goal, wrong initial segment. The time, however, was 30 years ago.

There are steps being taken to scale back to the project to a more reasonable level and put some grown-ups in charge, but the wheels of large infrastructure projects move slowly.[/QUOTE]
I understand ones support for this project and the argument of the use of eminent domain, but you sir are just a dick.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']I understand ones support for this project and the argument of the use of eminent domain, but you sir are just a dick.[/QUOTE]
The I-5 was widened years ago in this area. It's amazing to look back at articles and compare the reaction to the freeway to the uproar that the CAHSR project has caused.

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-08-25/local/me-1139_1_freeway-expansion

Ruth Medrano will lose her Anaheim home of 30 years when the Santa Ana Freeway behind her house is widened within the next four years. But, she said, giving up her home and selling her property to the state to make way for the project is all part of Orange County's growth.

"This is progress. If the freeways have to be widened, they have to be widened," Medrano said Thursday. "It's like a bridge. You have to build one to get across water.

"I have seen many, many changes. If we have to move, we have to move, that's all there is to it."

Medrano is one of an estimated 831 people in 396 residential units who will have to move to allow the widening of the six-lane Santa Ana Freeway from the interchange of the Riverside Freeway in Anaheim to the interchange of the Garden Grove Freeway in Santa Ana.
Click to expand...

Where are these people now? It seems when it is a rail line coming through and not a freeway, people scream bloody murder. They are both big, expensive public works projects paid for by your tax dollars and have questionable public benefits. Today, that section of I-5 still has horrendous traffic. Even the carpool lane is at a standstill. The promised express buses are nonexistent.

But getting funds to double track the LOSSAN Corridor, a rail corridor that has proven ridership and shovel-ready projects, has been an exercise in frustration.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Likely, it's that "good" part.

Granted, I'm a country bumpkin' and we don't have much in the way of public transportation around here (The closest would probably be RIDES Mass Transit, which I *think* is a private company that gets public funding for bussing around those who can't drive (typically older and disabled individuals) to the grocery store, Walmart, etc.)... but when I think of public transportation, I think of giant subway rats, graffiti, muggings, people with BO, obnoxious people with boom boxes, annoying people yakking on their cell phone, opossums in the engine (I call the big one "Bitey".), etc.

Logically, I know this isn't really the case (do people really even still use boom boxes?). It's just the way Hollywood has framed public transportation for so long and so many Americans have never really been around any kind of large-scale public transportation that they're going to automatically have a negative opinion of it and they likely can't really explain why.[/QUOTE]
You mean public transportation isn't really like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X9OdvjVfD8
 
[quote name='Spokker']
Where are these people now? It seems when it is a rail line coming through and not a freeway, people scream bloody murder. They are both big, expensive public works projects paid for by your tax dollars and have questionable public benefits. Today, that section of I-5 still has horrendous traffic. Even the carpool lane is at a standstill. The promised express buses are nonexistent.
[/QUOTE]

Most people drive so they feel a wider road (or new road) can reduce traffic and improve their lives.

Most people won't use public transit and have the stigma of it that Bob does and/or think it's just something used by the lower class and we all know how people love to bitch about any of their tax dollars going to those lazy bums....
 
The beauty of widening a highway is that it allows for more cars to be in the same place at once, this does not remove cars from traffic. Light rail does remove cars from traffic. So what is your typical politician to do about the problem of too many cars on the raod at once? Solve the problem with the problem by adding a method by which more cars can be on the road at the same time.

GuinnessBrilliant.jpg
 
Went to a local cahsr meeting tonight for my local area. Apparently the right of way across this state will be 100-120 feet. In order to accommodate where the train will be they will build under and over passes. At max capacity on average 6 trains an hour will pass by most areas. Just passing on some info.
 
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