can't find - Shakespeare in the Original Dialect

Where "original dialect" = a Scottish-style brogue. For example: "Toe bay orrr note toe bay."




I've been looking for over a year for either an audio or video presentation, featuring Shakespeare's play (any play) in the original 1600s dialect. Know where I can find it?

troy
 
The Shakespeare that we are all familiar with IS the orginal dialect. I believe you are refering to a style of middle English (see Chaucer's Canterbury Tales) which was commonly spoken about 250 years ealier.
 
[quote name='robdees']The Shakespeare that we are all familiar with IS the original dialect.[/QUOTE]Sorry, but you're wrong. Shakespeare spoke "early modern" which shares the same spelling, mostly, but an entirely different sound. Shakespeare used the European vowels. So for example, instead of saying:

"To be or not to be."

He said: "Toe bay orrr note toe bay."
 
[quote name='electrictroy']Sorry, but you're wrong. Shakespeare spoke "early modern" which shares the same spelling, mostly, but an entirely different sound. Shakespeare used the European vowels. So for example, instead of saying:

"To be or not to be."

He said: "Toe bay orrr note toe bay."
 
[quote name='help1']Thats just his accent.[/QUOTE]dialect - A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation. - synonyms: idiom, accent. - The American Heritage® Dictionary


I used the proper word.

troy
 
I'm pretty sure that I'm correct here. I was an Enlish major in college and have studied Shakespeare pretty exstensively and have never heard of this before. My 2000 page Riverside Shakespeare make no mention of any "scottish brogue" accents. The middle english of Chaucer is spoken as the dialect of your example, but is also written that way, the assertion that early modern is still spoken that way yet not written as such seems erroneous. As Help1 stated we are stictily talking about the possibility of an accent here one that could be dictatated by social class, region or other factors. The fact that you are unable to find any kind of performances in this accent (and probably never wiil), even throught the BBC productions which are always very authentic, makes your position hard to support.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']dialect - A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation. - synonyms: idiom, accent. - The American Heritage® Dictionary


I used the proper word.

troy[/QUOTE]


You can't just go taking out parts of definitions.

"A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists." - American Hertiage Dictionary

For reference, here is a definition of accent:

"The relative prominence of a particular syllable of a word by greater intensity or by variation or modulation of pitch or tone." - American Heritage Dictionary.

In other words, an accent CAN be PART of a dialect; however, they are not the same thing.

In the case of Shakespeare, I'd say you're looking for a particular accent. (I'm not going to even try to get in on the arguement over what accent is the original, however.)
 
[quote name='jenus']In other words, an accent CAN be PART of a dialect; however, they are not the same thing.[/QUOTE]Perhaps you're right. But I don't care. You knew what I meant when I said, "Shakespeare's dialect"..... i.e. A different pronunciation from the norm..... You're just trolling/baiting over trivial word differences ("you should have said accent, not dialect"), so you can start a lame argument. Sorry. I refuse to feed trolls.




[quote name='robdees']I'm pretty sure that I'm correct here. I was an Enlish major in college and have studied Shakespeare pretty exstensively and have never heard of this before. [/QUOTE]Here's my source: http://www.teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=800&d=History+of+the+English+Language - Taught by Seth Lerer - Stanford University - Ph.D., University of Chicago

He reads various parts of Shakespeare, using the Middle English vowels & rolling r's, and explains that if you don't use the original vowels, than the language does not rhyme as Shakespeare intended.

I've got a Ph.D. backing me up.




[quote name='robdees']the assertion that early modern is still spoken that way yet not written as such seems erroneous.[/QUOTE] Early Modern *is* spoken the way it's spelt. For example the silent 'e' is pronounced.

troy
 
I apologize for sounding like I was tolling, I was just trying to straighten things out with the semantics.

Anyway, I looked around a bit but couldn't find any audio of plays done like that... I did find a few pronunciation guides, though. One of them had audio clips to demonstrate pronunciation.

(In case you're interested, here they are):

http://www.renfaire.com/Language/pronunciation.html - The one with the audio

http://www.forestfaire.com/language-guide.html - Just some other place on the topic.
 
Ok, first off elctrictroy, please don't think that I'm being arguementative here, I honestly think this is a very interesting conversation. I looked over Dr. Lerer's site and didn't see much, but I assume you've purchased some of his products and have listened to them. Note that he is an expert in CHAUCER, whose name I've already identified with your position. The problem still remains that the dialect of Chaucer was 250-300 years before the performances of Shakespeare. Would you say that the American dialect, or any other, remained unchanged for that span of time? Of course not. The problem with dialect is that it must be written that way. Consider the work of Twain or Steinbeck. They wrote dialect that was unmistakable, it was read the way it was written. That being said, Shakespeare wrote plays. Who's to say what "accent" was used when performed. Was Macbeth done with a Scottish accent? Was the Merchant of Venice done with an Italian accented English? All we have to go by is what is on the page and, when pronounced as written, the iambic pentameter rhyme scheme always works as written. I still assert that you may have been led into a less accepted viewpoint by a professor with an interesting theory, but just that, a theory.
 
Ok, I checked your linkage, troy, and though I hardly consider an internet Renaissance fair page credible, I get the idea and I think we are conflicted over a relatively small point. Of course Shakespeare spoke differently than we do today, that's why people have trouble reading the stuff. The point of contention seems to simply be the pronunciation of vowel sounds. Again, this will vary greatly based on the individual and location. For example, someone from the south with say "roof" (like "moon") while someone from the north will say "roof" (like "ruhf"). In short, the orginal dialect is what is written. When reading Faulkner do read it to yourself in a southern accect? No, because it is not written that way, though Faulkner certainly heard the words in his head with that familiar drawl. While there is no doubt that some actors, possibly many, may have used this accent when performing Shakespeare, I'm afraid that your chances of finding a performance spoken this way probably vanished three hundred years ago; it's just not widely accepted enough. Your best bet may be to find a Scottish performace of some kind. It's an interesting position though and one I will look into more this summer during my graduate classes.
 
[quote name='robdees']Of course Shakespeare spoke differently than we do today, that's why people have trouble reading the stuff. The point of contention seems to simply be the pronunciation of vowel sounds. Again, this will vary greatly based on the individual and location. [/QUOTE]In this case, we're talking London circa 1590.

If you're going to read an author, you ought to read him with his original "sound" (IMHO). Faulkner wrote for an American audience and American accent...... but you wouldn't read a Scottish poem in British or American. It wasn't meant to be read that way & the rhymes would not match properly.

LADY: I hope this reason stands for my excuse.
BEGGAR: Aye, *it* stands so that I may hardly tarry so long.

This makes no sense, until you realize "reason" was pronounced similar to "raising". Now it reads:

LADY: I hope this raising stands for my excuse.
BEGGAR: Aye, *it* stands so that I may hardly tarry so long.




And you're probably right. I'll probably never find a play with the original accent. Professor Lerer's readings sounded beautiful..... too bad he only read a few paragraphs, rather than the whole work.

troy
 
Fighting over the internet is like running in the Special Olympics; whoever wins is considered retarded.

Now can anyone -help- electrictroy? Yea or nay?

The person who does O'aka's voice in FFX/FFX-2 sounds pretty much the same, so it's not hard talking like that. Your best bet is to just learn the dialect/accent and read it. You're probably shit out of luck finding a published version.
 
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