A pretty civil discussion of the merits of console gaming vs PC gaming started in the Steam Deal thread, and was requested moved out of a deal specific thread. I'm sure that there are other discussions and debates available, but this thread is for the continuation of the current discussion.
Continuation - Console vs PC Debate
- Thread starter bubo
- Start date
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Perhaps there's something wrong with my eyes, but top tier console games don't look much worse than top tier PC games. Or the differences are too subtle or something.
Not trying to insult PC games here, but current consoles still look strong, compared to advances that were made in previous console lifespans.[/QUOTE]
You are right, and I think I glossed over that point in what I wrote. A good developer can work around the hardware limitations, even years after the initial release. Furthermore, the distinction between quality on console versus quality on computer is going to become smaller in at least the short term future due to companies focusing on console development and porting to the PC (there was an interesting article about this last week regarding the piracy issue on PC).
However, I feel that if we are going to do a cost to quality debate between console and PC, the focus should be on capability versus perception. An artist can make a masterpiece out of offal and clay (seriously, there's a Japanese art devoted to making mud balls and the Mythbusters recently did a show substituting offal). However, better materials usually means easier and/or better results.
Not trying to insult PC games here, but current consoles still look strong, compared to advances that were made in previous console lifespans.[/QUOTE]
You are right, and I think I glossed over that point in what I wrote. A good developer can work around the hardware limitations, even years after the initial release. Furthermore, the distinction between quality on console versus quality on computer is going to become smaller in at least the short term future due to companies focusing on console development and porting to the PC (there was an interesting article about this last week regarding the piracy issue on PC).
However, I feel that if we are going to do a cost to quality debate between console and PC, the focus should be on capability versus perception. An artist can make a masterpiece out of offal and clay (seriously, there's a Japanese art devoted to making mud balls and the Mythbusters recently did a show substituting offal). However, better materials usually means easier and/or better results.
Animefalcon
CAGiversary!
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/25/c...generation-ahead-being-held-back-by-consoles/
its about time console gamers are reminded that they are the reason games are being held back by tech
its about time console gamers are reminded that they are the reason games are being held back by tech
PC easily wins in customization, framerate, resolution, controls. But here at CAG, we care about the price.
Price, well, that's extremely questionable. Most console games run at 720p at 30 fps. You can't get that level of performance for the price of a 360, but that's because it's difficult to find such obsolete parts to put into a PC. For $300 now, you can get 720p60 maxed out for almost all console ports -- certainly all UE3 games at least. And that's not even considering that your PC can do more than just play games.
Price, well, that's extremely questionable. Most console games run at 720p at 30 fps. You can't get that level of performance for the price of a 360, but that's because it's difficult to find such obsolete parts to put into a PC. For $300 now, you can get 720p60 maxed out for almost all console ports -- certainly all UE3 games at least. And that's not even considering that your PC can do more than just play games.
@ bubo - Yes you can find someone to fix your PC cheaper, but it does not always mean they will do a good job. I have had a few problems with PCs as have a few family members and we have tried a few small/local shops and sometimes it turned out well, sometimes yes I only paid $100 to fix my PC...but then found when the guy returned it something else was screwed up. I find that it seems nowadays everyone that has even a small amount of PC knowledge thinks they can fix the things professionally. The other big problem with your cost theory is you are assuming its not a major problem, if you have a gaming rig its going to cost you some serious change to replace something like a graphics card regardless if you go to a big name store or a local. My graphics card burnt out on me a year or two ago and even having a friend of mine thats a PC wizz replace the damn thing(which I can now do myself)the graphics card ran me a good $150ish and then it cost me another $60 taking the friend out to a Sushi dinner
@jasontermonator - Its because the difference between console and PC gaming is getting smaller and smaller. As I said before PC gaming has become more streamlined meaning there are less headaches and bugs to deal with! At the same time though that streamlining/consolization of the PC market has meant that graphics do not stand out on the PC the way they used to. There is still a difference, but its not as big as it used to be because most PC makers design their games to work on all 3 major platforms and its easier to use 1 design then design a separate game for the PC.
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@Animefalcon - Fine by me. I do not want to go back to the old days of PC gaming where yes tech was constantly moving forward but it cost me $200-$300 upgrading my ram and graphics card every 2 years and a new $1,000+ PC every year. I do not understand why everyone wants the newest shiniest tech, I would rather the tech I had be made more efficient, cheap and enjoyable.
@jasontermonator - Its because the difference between console and PC gaming is getting smaller and smaller. As I said before PC gaming has become more streamlined meaning there are less headaches and bugs to deal with! At the same time though that streamlining/consolization of the PC market has meant that graphics do not stand out on the PC the way they used to. There is still a difference, but its not as big as it used to be because most PC makers design their games to work on all 3 major platforms and its easier to use 1 design then design a separate game for the PC.
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@Animefalcon - Fine by me. I do not want to go back to the old days of PC gaming where yes tech was constantly moving forward but it cost me $200-$300 upgrading my ram and graphics card every 2 years and a new $1,000+ PC every year. I do not understand why everyone wants the newest shiniest tech, I would rather the tech I had be made more efficient, cheap and enjoyable.
iKilledChewbacca
Banned
I game both on my PC and my console ( x360 and PS3 ) . I really enjoy what all three consoles provide. I normally will take RPG's on a PC over consoles anyday, but I prefer FPS and adventure games on consoles. So people shouldnt judge what is best but just enjoy them !!
that is all.
that is all.
[quote name='Mikerrrr']PC easily wins in customization, framerate, resolution, controls. But here at CAG, we care about the price.
Price, well, that's extremely questionable. Most console games run at 720p at 30 fps. You can't get that level of performance for the price of a 360, but that's because it's difficult to find such obsolete parts to put into a PC. For $300 now, you can get 720p60 maxed out for almost all console ports -- certainly all UE3 games at least. And that's not even considering that your PC can do more than just play games.[/QUOTE]
I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.
There is also a big problem with your price debate and that is you are giving prices that assume you are making your own PC or upgrading your own PC....something 70% of the population does not know how to do.
Price, well, that's extremely questionable. Most console games run at 720p at 30 fps. You can't get that level of performance for the price of a 360, but that's because it's difficult to find such obsolete parts to put into a PC. For $300 now, you can get 720p60 maxed out for almost all console ports -- certainly all UE3 games at least. And that's not even considering that your PC can do more than just play games.[/QUOTE]
I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.
There is also a big problem with your price debate and that is you are giving prices that assume you are making your own PC or upgrading your own PC....something 70% of the population does not know how to do.
TheLongshot
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='lordopus99']Let's go onto the PC. First, your pricepoint to start is at least $800 for a PC that is equiped enough to play games. If your PC is dated 2-3 years old, you are most likely unable to play new top notch titles (i.e. Black Ops, Crysis 2, etc) without upgrading your equipment. Good Graphics cards can be almost 150-200 dollars (if you can't install yourself, add another 50+); price is now coming close to a new console. Beyond the hardware issues of having to upgrade to play newer top notch games, a computer is vulnerable to viruses. This would affect your lifespan of your computer.
My current computer is 3 years old (high end when purchased) and does not meet the requirements/recommended specs for Black Ops. My Xbox 360 does.
To summerize, most consoles last 7+ years. In order to keep up with the new big titles on PC, you have to upgrade $200+ every 2 years. You are essentially replacing your system every 2 years vs consoles at every 7 years. To each their own...[/quote]
I wanted to respond to this, but I didn't want to clutter up the original thread.
My current PC is about 5 years old. The only upgrade I've done that would have to do with game specs is with the video card, which was about a year and a half ago. (Radeon HD 4830 - $124) While I probably can't run all games at top resolution, I haven't run into many games where specs have been a problem. I am also in no hurry to do any upgrades either.
As for consoles lasting, my 3 year old PS2 is starting to have CD-Rom reading issues. If it does go, my only option would be to buy another console. If one went in my PC, I could just replace the CD rom in there, which is cheaper than even a refurbished PS2.
My current computer is 3 years old (high end when purchased) and does not meet the requirements/recommended specs for Black Ops. My Xbox 360 does.
To summerize, most consoles last 7+ years. In order to keep up with the new big titles on PC, you have to upgrade $200+ every 2 years. You are essentially replacing your system every 2 years vs consoles at every 7 years. To each their own...[/quote]
I wanted to respond to this, but I didn't want to clutter up the original thread.
My current PC is about 5 years old. The only upgrade I've done that would have to do with game specs is with the video card, which was about a year and a half ago. (Radeon HD 4830 - $124) While I probably can't run all games at top resolution, I haven't run into many games where specs have been a problem. I am also in no hurry to do any upgrades either.
As for consoles lasting, my 3 year old PS2 is starting to have CD-Rom reading issues. If it does go, my only option would be to buy another console. If one went in my PC, I could just replace the CD rom in there, which is cheaper than even a refurbished PS2.
RichMeisterMan
CAGiversary!
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To say that consoles are holding me and my PC gaming back is to say that I want to have to upgrade my rig.
[quote name='MSI Magus']I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.
There is also a big problem with your price debate and that is you are giving prices that assume you are making your own PC or upgrading your own PC....something 70% of the population does not know how to do.[/QUOTE]
A 360 controller and xpadder tilt the controls towards PCs. as for building your own rig, it's indicative of PC gaming as a whole: you get what you put in. With console games, you get whatever publishers and MS and sony throw at you.
There is also a big problem with your price debate and that is you are giving prices that assume you are making your own PC or upgrading your own PC....something 70% of the population does not know how to do.[/QUOTE]
A 360 controller and xpadder tilt the controls towards PCs. as for building your own rig, it's indicative of PC gaming as a whole: you get what you put in. With console games, you get whatever publishers and MS and sony throw at you.
M
Megazell
Guest
This was the last thread I saw on this topic.
CAG:Games that are better on the PC than on consoles
It's rare if I ever explore the rest of CAG outside of the PC section.
I stopped being a consoles gamer shortly during DreamCast and PS2 era. There were several reasons for this.
1) The consoles games were getting EASY. Too EASY.
I need a challenge. Especially if I am going to spend money I want games that will stump me.
Games were coming out on a Friday and in less than 5 hours after they hit...games were ended...No thanks.
2) The line between PC and Console was going fast once Console games went online.
This was not about multiplayer...it's about this 'release and patch later trend' that I find offensive as a one time consumer. The game should work as intended DAY ONE. Patches should be to add content....not to fix a game that should have not been broken in the first place.
As a PC gamer first...I moved away from companies that followed that attitude. While I support those that released games and added patches to add features, maps, campaigns and such.
During 360, PS2 and GameCube era - many PC developers left and went to go make games for the consoles. I was one of the few that was more than happy to see them go.
These were the same developers that complained about how difficult it was to program for the PC due to X, Y and Z and stated that this was the reason why games launched with bugs, exploits and issues.
Now they are on the consoles where things should have been better to program....yet console titles are launching with bugs, exploits and issues....How could this be? In the end, a shitty programming discipline is a shitty programming discipline.
--------------------------- 2nd Point ---------------------------
Consoles use to the be the place when you slap a game in and play. That's no longer true...with updates for the unit, updates/patches for the game, RROD, YLOD, vanishing features (PS3), changing peripheral issues (M$ disallowing 3rd party peripherals) and other issues took away one of the greatest features consoles use to have ease of gaming.
3) Cost.
PC games, hardware and peripherals have always been cheaper. This may not be true for people that have 'BigBoxStore' mentalities but since we are on CAG I would assume a great many are not in that lot.
I'm on the extreme side of this spectrum, since I won't spend a dime on games period....but that fact that I have that choice is another plus for the PC....be it Mac, Linux or Windows.
4) Cookie Cutter Games
Too many consoles games (not all) are cookie cut. This is true for anything in the mainstream they stay on a trend for too long...Right now consoles are going through the late 90's era of PC gaming when shooter were coming out ever 2 days.
With the PC library not locked down by region, language or compatibility PC gamers can enjoy games in all colors of the rainbow. Be them weird, bizarre and freaky you can find a game that uses experimental gameplay mechanics everywhere on the PC.
CAG:Games that are better on the PC than on consoles
It's rare if I ever explore the rest of CAG outside of the PC section.
I stopped being a consoles gamer shortly during DreamCast and PS2 era. There were several reasons for this.
1) The consoles games were getting EASY. Too EASY.
I need a challenge. Especially if I am going to spend money I want games that will stump me.
Games were coming out on a Friday and in less than 5 hours after they hit...games were ended...No thanks.
2) The line between PC and Console was going fast once Console games went online.
This was not about multiplayer...it's about this 'release and patch later trend' that I find offensive as a one time consumer. The game should work as intended DAY ONE. Patches should be to add content....not to fix a game that should have not been broken in the first place.
As a PC gamer first...I moved away from companies that followed that attitude. While I support those that released games and added patches to add features, maps, campaigns and such.
During 360, PS2 and GameCube era - many PC developers left and went to go make games for the consoles. I was one of the few that was more than happy to see them go.
These were the same developers that complained about how difficult it was to program for the PC due to X, Y and Z and stated that this was the reason why games launched with bugs, exploits and issues.
Now they are on the consoles where things should have been better to program....yet console titles are launching with bugs, exploits and issues....How could this be? In the end, a shitty programming discipline is a shitty programming discipline.
--------------------------- 2nd Point ---------------------------
Consoles use to the be the place when you slap a game in and play. That's no longer true...with updates for the unit, updates/patches for the game, RROD, YLOD, vanishing features (PS3), changing peripheral issues (M$ disallowing 3rd party peripherals) and other issues took away one of the greatest features consoles use to have ease of gaming.
3) Cost.
PC games, hardware and peripherals have always been cheaper. This may not be true for people that have 'BigBoxStore' mentalities but since we are on CAG I would assume a great many are not in that lot.
I'm on the extreme side of this spectrum, since I won't spend a dime on games period....but that fact that I have that choice is another plus for the PC....be it Mac, Linux or Windows.
4) Cookie Cutter Games
Too many consoles games (not all) are cookie cut. This is true for anything in the mainstream they stay on a trend for too long...Right now consoles are going through the late 90's era of PC gaming when shooter were coming out ever 2 days.
With the PC library not locked down by region, language or compatibility PC gamers can enjoy games in all colors of the rainbow. Be them weird, bizarre and freaky you can find a game that uses experimental gameplay mechanics everywhere on the PC.
[quote name='Mikerrrr']PC easily wins in customization, framerate, resolution, controls. But here at CAG, we care about the price.
Price, well, that's extremely questionable. Most console games run at 720p at 30 fps. You can't get that level of performance for the price of a 360, but that's because it's difficult to find such obsolete parts to put into a PC. For $300 now, you can get 720p60 maxed out for almost all console ports -- certainly all UE3 games at least. And that's not even considering that your PC can do more than just play games.[/QUOTE]
I'll have to concede that point. While I have built reasonable gaming PCs for around the neighborhood of $400, console prices still beat that and the PCs could not do current gen at those rates (well, they could, but involved some really extensive mods/tweaking). Entry costs into PC gaming can be steap, but upgrade/maintenance does not have to be as high as claims make it. (On a personal note, I bought a new gaming laptop last month. One of the refurbished ASUS RoG models from Best Buy (I know, I know, but I fix my own stuff and I have a credit account with them for my business for emergency purchases) for only $630. Dual-core 2.1GHz, GeForce GTX 260M 1GB, and 4GB RAM makes for a pretty decent portable gaming platform).
[quote name='MSI Magus']@ bubo - Yes you can find someone to fix your PC cheaper, but it does not always mean they will do a good job. I have had a few problems with PCs as have a few family members and we have tried a few small/local shops and sometimes it turned out well, sometimes yes I only paid $100 to fix my PC...but then found when the guy returned it something else was screwed up. I find that it seems nowadays everyone that has even a small amount of PC knowledge thinks they can fix the things professionally. The other big problem with your cost theory is you are assuming its not a major problem, if you have a gaming rig its going to cost you some serious change to replace something like a graphics card regardless if you go to a big name store or a local. My graphics card burnt out on me a year or two ago and even having a friend of mine thats a PC wizz replace the damn thing(which I can now do myself)the graphics card ran me a good $150ish and then it cost me another $60 taking the friend out to a Sushi dinner
@jasontermonator - Its because the difference between console and PC gaming is getting smaller and smaller. As I said before PC gaming has become more streamlined meaning there are less headaches and bugs to deal with! At the same time though that streamlining/consolization of the PC market has meant that graphics do not stand out on the PC the way they used to. There is still a difference, but its not as big as it used to be because most PC makers design their games to work on all 3 major platforms and its easier to use 1 design then design a separate game for the PC.
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@Animefalcon - Fine by me. I do not want to go back to the old days of PC gaming where yes tech was constantly moving forward but it cost me $200-$300 upgrading my ram and graphics card every 2 years and a new $1,000+ PC every year. I do not understand why everyone wants the newest shiniest tech, I would rather the tech I had be made more efficient, cheap and enjoyable.[/QUOTE]
Again, I'll have to concede to your point here. Although you'll find a significant price difference on hardware between a Big Box store and specialty online shops like Newegg.com. The trade off, of course, is waiting for shipments (I contend that shipping costs are regularly free and when they are not usually are comparable to sales tax savings).
I'll have to politely disagree about the lower number of bugs and headaches. Due to the difference in architecture, the majority of titles developed this way are just ports to a PC, and that usually has more bugs than natively coded software. It's just that many places don't count the bugs that crop up and have to be fixed during development of the initial title when they enumerate porting bugs. So, more bugs than native PC titles, but most of the bugs are solved during the console development portion of the project. Of course, as you pointed out, developing the way means that the graphics are optimized for console hardware as opposed to PC hardware, which results in the graphics not having as much of a quality difference.
In regards to the old days..... ehhh *waggles hand*. Again, it's a matter of viewpoint. I'd rather have the option of getting cutting edge quality than being forced to conform to yesterdays quality. The issue with console prime development is that the focus is on yesterdays hardware (i.e. the consoles with the exception of consoles initially released within a recent time frame).
Now, in a point in favor of consoles, the reason why more companies are adopting console prime development is because PC gamers have shot themselves in the foot for too long (I'm referring to PC gamers in general, not the populace at CAG). PC Gaming piracy is so rampant that a more closed environment such as consoles results in significantly greater return on investment (yes, I know consoles can be cracked, but it's a lot harder to the common person than downloading cracked software). I'll look up the article, but I believe the quote was that console profit was 4-5 times greater than PC profit. With that kind of money, it's easy to understand why developers are focusing on consoles and adding PC capability as an afterthought (usually with little budget allocated to take advantage of the latest/greatest PC hardware).
Price, well, that's extremely questionable. Most console games run at 720p at 30 fps. You can't get that level of performance for the price of a 360, but that's because it's difficult to find such obsolete parts to put into a PC. For $300 now, you can get 720p60 maxed out for almost all console ports -- certainly all UE3 games at least. And that's not even considering that your PC can do more than just play games.[/QUOTE]
I'll have to concede that point. While I have built reasonable gaming PCs for around the neighborhood of $400, console prices still beat that and the PCs could not do current gen at those rates (well, they could, but involved some really extensive mods/tweaking). Entry costs into PC gaming can be steap, but upgrade/maintenance does not have to be as high as claims make it. (On a personal note, I bought a new gaming laptop last month. One of the refurbished ASUS RoG models from Best Buy (I know, I know, but I fix my own stuff and I have a credit account with them for my business for emergency purchases) for only $630. Dual-core 2.1GHz, GeForce GTX 260M 1GB, and 4GB RAM makes for a pretty decent portable gaming platform).
[quote name='MSI Magus']@ bubo - Yes you can find someone to fix your PC cheaper, but it does not always mean they will do a good job. I have had a few problems with PCs as have a few family members and we have tried a few small/local shops and sometimes it turned out well, sometimes yes I only paid $100 to fix my PC...but then found when the guy returned it something else was screwed up. I find that it seems nowadays everyone that has even a small amount of PC knowledge thinks they can fix the things professionally. The other big problem with your cost theory is you are assuming its not a major problem, if you have a gaming rig its going to cost you some serious change to replace something like a graphics card regardless if you go to a big name store or a local. My graphics card burnt out on me a year or two ago and even having a friend of mine thats a PC wizz replace the damn thing(which I can now do myself)the graphics card ran me a good $150ish and then it cost me another $60 taking the friend out to a Sushi dinner
@jasontermonator - Its because the difference between console and PC gaming is getting smaller and smaller. As I said before PC gaming has become more streamlined meaning there are less headaches and bugs to deal with! At the same time though that streamlining/consolization of the PC market has meant that graphics do not stand out on the PC the way they used to. There is still a difference, but its not as big as it used to be because most PC makers design their games to work on all 3 major platforms and its easier to use 1 design then design a separate game for the PC.
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@Animefalcon - Fine by me. I do not want to go back to the old days of PC gaming where yes tech was constantly moving forward but it cost me $200-$300 upgrading my ram and graphics card every 2 years and a new $1,000+ PC every year. I do not understand why everyone wants the newest shiniest tech, I would rather the tech I had be made more efficient, cheap and enjoyable.[/QUOTE]
Again, I'll have to concede to your point here. Although you'll find a significant price difference on hardware between a Big Box store and specialty online shops like Newegg.com. The trade off, of course, is waiting for shipments (I contend that shipping costs are regularly free and when they are not usually are comparable to sales tax savings).
I'll have to politely disagree about the lower number of bugs and headaches. Due to the difference in architecture, the majority of titles developed this way are just ports to a PC, and that usually has more bugs than natively coded software. It's just that many places don't count the bugs that crop up and have to be fixed during development of the initial title when they enumerate porting bugs. So, more bugs than native PC titles, but most of the bugs are solved during the console development portion of the project. Of course, as you pointed out, developing the way means that the graphics are optimized for console hardware as opposed to PC hardware, which results in the graphics not having as much of a quality difference.
In regards to the old days..... ehhh *waggles hand*. Again, it's a matter of viewpoint. I'd rather have the option of getting cutting edge quality than being forced to conform to yesterdays quality. The issue with console prime development is that the focus is on yesterdays hardware (i.e. the consoles with the exception of consoles initially released within a recent time frame).
Now, in a point in favor of consoles, the reason why more companies are adopting console prime development is because PC gamers have shot themselves in the foot for too long (I'm referring to PC gamers in general, not the populace at CAG). PC Gaming piracy is so rampant that a more closed environment such as consoles results in significantly greater return on investment (yes, I know consoles can be cracked, but it's a lot harder to the common person than downloading cracked software). I'll look up the article, but I believe the quote was that console profit was 4-5 times greater than PC profit. With that kind of money, it's easy to understand why developers are focusing on consoles and adding PC capability as an afterthought (usually with little budget allocated to take advantage of the latest/greatest PC hardware).
TheLongshot
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='MSI Magus']I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.[/quote]
And you can buy controllers for PCs. There are many who use Xbox controllers with PCs. Course, I can play platformers with the keyboard as well.
Both the prebuilt and the console gamer who has little technical knowledge will be leaning on the warranty. When it expires, the person with a console will have limited options as to getting it serviced, while those who have PCs will have broader options, including the ability to do it themselves if they are willing to learn.
But, there will always be people willing to help do upgrades for a price for those not comfortable with doing it.
And you can buy controllers for PCs. There are many who use Xbox controllers with PCs. Course, I can play platformers with the keyboard as well.
Both the prebuilt and the console gamer who has little technical knowledge will be leaning on the warranty. When it expires, the person with a console will have limited options as to getting it serviced, while those who have PCs will have broader options, including the ability to do it themselves if they are willing to learn.
But, there will always be people willing to help do upgrades for a price for those not comfortable with doing it.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']To say that consoles are holding me and my PC gaming back is to say that I want to have to upgrade my rig.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']To say that consoles are holding me and my PC gaming back is to say that I want to have to upgrade my rig.[/QUOTE]
Another good point. At this time due to the state of both industries this leans very in the favor for PC gamers.
[quote name='MSI Magus']I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.[/QUOTE]
The issue with control was true back in the 1990's....If you are a PC gamer and want to play a game via control...you can do so if you want to. There are plenty of free options and programs out there to help. I've play 90's of all of my games via gamepad from MMORPGs, RTS to Platformers and Fighters...
[quote name='TheLongshot']I wanted to respond to this, but I didn't want to clutter up the original thread.
My current PC is about 5 years old. The only upgrade I've done that would have to do with game specs is with the video card, which was about a year and a half ago. (Radeon HD 4830 - $124) While I probably can't run all games at top resolution, I haven't run into many games where specs have been a problem. I am also in no hurry to do any upgrades either.
As for consoles lasting, my 3 year old PS2 is starting to have CD-Rom reading issues. If it does go, my only option would be to buy another console. If one went in my PC, I could just replace the CD rom in there, which is cheaper than even a refurbished PS2.[/QUOTE]
Your choice is super heroes gives you a +5 against lurkers
Exactly - PC hardware gets cheaper with each year for those of us that know how to do it ourselves (Though with free videos on Youtube and other sites I can't see how their can be so many people that don't know it).
Upgrade and outright purchases are still cheaper if you were say a 'cheap ass gamer.'
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']To say that consoles are holding me and my PC gaming back is to say that I want to have to upgrade my rig.[/QUOTE]
Another good point. At this time due to the state of both industries this leans very in the favor for PC gamers.
[quote name='MSI Magus']I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.[/QUOTE]
The issue with control was true back in the 1990's....If you are a PC gamer and want to play a game via control...you can do so if you want to. There are plenty of free options and programs out there to help. I've play 90's of all of my games via gamepad from MMORPGs, RTS to Platformers and Fighters...
[quote name='TheLongshot']I wanted to respond to this, but I didn't want to clutter up the original thread.
My current PC is about 5 years old. The only upgrade I've done that would have to do with game specs is with the video card, which was about a year and a half ago. (Radeon HD 4830 - $124) While I probably can't run all games at top resolution, I haven't run into many games where specs have been a problem. I am also in no hurry to do any upgrades either.
As for consoles lasting, my 3 year old PS2 is starting to have CD-Rom reading issues. If it does go, my only option would be to buy another console. If one went in my PC, I could just replace the CD rom in there, which is cheaper than even a refurbished PS2.[/QUOTE]
Your choice is super heroes gives you a +5 against lurkers
Exactly - PC hardware gets cheaper with each year for those of us that know how to do it ourselves (Though with free videos on Youtube and other sites I can't see how their can be so many people that don't know it).
Upgrade and outright purchases are still cheaper if you were say a 'cheap ass gamer.'
[quote name='Mikerrrr']A 360 controller and xpadder tilt the controls towards PCs. as for building your own rig, it's indicative of PC gaming as a whole: you get what you put in. With console games, you get whatever publishers and MS and sony throw at you.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think this is a rather apt summary of my feelings regarding the platforms all together. While I'll agree that PC gaming can be more expensive, I prefer having more control over my platform than being at the mercy of the manufacturer for the consoles. Let's not forget that dark day when the PS3 leap year bug caused console owners to be without their games (and some suffering from corrupted saves), while Sony avoided comment for an excessive period of time (yes, I'm fine with fixes taking time, but Sony didn't want to acknowledge anything until they had a solution). On a PC, if the manufacturer's were silent like that, then there is generally a tech or team of techs who will delve into the problem themselves. This usually results in at least an explanation, and there are many stories out there of fans and techs who produced a fix well ahead of the official fix.
Actually, I think this is a rather apt summary of my feelings regarding the platforms all together. While I'll agree that PC gaming can be more expensive, I prefer having more control over my platform than being at the mercy of the manufacturer for the consoles. Let's not forget that dark day when the PS3 leap year bug caused console owners to be without their games (and some suffering from corrupted saves), while Sony avoided comment for an excessive period of time (yes, I'm fine with fixes taking time, but Sony didn't want to acknowledge anything until they had a solution). On a PC, if the manufacturer's were silent like that, then there is generally a tech or team of techs who will delve into the problem themselves. This usually results in at least an explanation, and there are many stories out there of fans and techs who produced a fix well ahead of the official fix.
@Longshot - First off a PS2 lasting 3 years is not normal. Its like getting a PC and the RAM burning out after a few months. Most people still have their old fat PS2 models...hell most still have their old fat NES systems working! Second off you say you have not had to upgrade your PC in 5 years, but that is thanks to consoles. Most PC developers design their games for the console now and port it to the PC. This means that the specs required to play them are greatly reduced when compared to past generations where PC gaming drove hardware.
@Mikeerrrrr - Um no. Yes you can use a game pad for many PC games now days but not for all and def not for old games. Making the argument that you can use a 360 controller on the PC is only slightly more rational then arguing that console games can be played with keyboard and mouse(which some can). Thankfully its becoming more and more common for PC games to feature 360 control support, but its no where near 100% support yet. It also does not change the fact that I am stuck sitting at my PC then vs on my nice comfy rocking chair.
@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.
@Mikeerrrrr - Um no. Yes you can use a game pad for many PC games now days but not for all and def not for old games. Making the argument that you can use a 360 controller on the PC is only slightly more rational then arguing that console games can be played with keyboard and mouse(which some can). Thankfully its becoming more and more common for PC games to feature 360 control support, but its no where near 100% support yet. It also does not change the fact that I am stuck sitting at my PC then vs on my nice comfy rocking chair.
@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.
[quote name='MSI Magus']I agree that PCs have the victory for some of those things like customization. However saying controls are better on the PC is way off base. Most gamers seem to preffer a controller to mouse and keyboard for everything except FPSers(which people are now split one)and RTS/Tower Defense(which there is no argument, PC dominates). For most games like Action Adventure, Platforming etc etc a controller is vastly preferred by most people I know.[/QUOTE]
Meh.... *waggles hand again* I hate this argument. I'm firmly in the mouse and keyboard camp for all but games that were designed with a specific controller in mind. However, I like to think that I'm the first to acknowledge that this has more to do with what I'm comfortable with, which is strongly linked to what I used initially. The younger generation tend towards controllers, the older generation tend towards keyboards and mice. I really don't think this says anything in regards to the platform (especially with custom controllers available that give you keyboard/mice on the console and controllers on the pc).
Meh.... *waggles hand again* I hate this argument. I'm firmly in the mouse and keyboard camp for all but games that were designed with a specific controller in mind. However, I like to think that I'm the first to acknowledge that this has more to do with what I'm comfortable with, which is strongly linked to what I used initially. The younger generation tend towards controllers, the older generation tend towards keyboards and mice. I really don't think this says anything in regards to the platform (especially with custom controllers available that give you keyboard/mice on the console and controllers on the pc).
TheLongshot
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Megazell,
I've kinda gone the other way in recent years. I used to be an exclusively PC gamer, even with a dalliance with SNES for a bit. But, three years ago, I got into console gaming. The main motivation was Guitar Hero, which I wanted to do but PC options were very limited. It also wasn't something that lent itself to one sitting in front of a PC doing. For me, the main motivation with me playing consoles is to play games that aren't available on PCs, which are many nowadays.
Also, now that I have a kid, it is nice to have a device that my son isn't going to get lost on and not figure out how to get back to where he wants to be.
That being said, the past year I've been getting back into PC gaming where I could, and it has been a rewarding experience, particualrly with how cheap Steam games are. That is something consoles really can't compete with very well right now.
I've kinda gone the other way in recent years. I used to be an exclusively PC gamer, even with a dalliance with SNES for a bit. But, three years ago, I got into console gaming. The main motivation was Guitar Hero, which I wanted to do but PC options were very limited. It also wasn't something that lent itself to one sitting in front of a PC doing. For me, the main motivation with me playing consoles is to play games that aren't available on PCs, which are many nowadays.
Also, now that I have a kid, it is nice to have a device that my son isn't going to get lost on and not figure out how to get back to where he wants to be.
That being said, the past year I've been getting back into PC gaming where I could, and it has been a rewarding experience, particualrly with how cheap Steam games are. That is something consoles really can't compete with very well right now.
[quote name='bubo'] I'll have to politely disagree about the lower number of bugs and headaches. Due to the difference in architecture, the majority of titles developed this way are just ports to a PC, and that usually has more bugs than natively coded software. It's just that many places don't count the bugs that crop up and have to be fixed during development of the initial title when they enumerate porting bugs. So, more bugs than native PC titles, but most of the bugs are solved during the console development portion of the project. Of course, as you pointed out, developing the way means that the graphics are optimized for console hardware as opposed to PC hardware, which results in the graphics not having as much of a quality difference.[/QUOTE]
Just in the last few months on the PC side I have had steam jack up my Plants vs Zombie and Torchlight saves and spent hours trying to get my good ole games copy of Planescape Torment to run right. I also experienced numerous crashes and constant slow down from Civ V. O and that reminds me, a year or so ago I had a problem with Steam where I could not play a game for more then like 15 mins before it would crash on me. Turns out it was a hiccup with my antivirus These are just the examples that pop in my head instantly and from the last few months. Meanwhile I have NEVER had a problem with a console game(thankfully I never bought Fallout, but id say thats a PC game anyways). Consoles are FAR superior in the bug department, very few are buggy and those that are are generally PC franchises making their way to console.
Just in the last few months on the PC side I have had steam jack up my Plants vs Zombie and Torchlight saves and spent hours trying to get my good ole games copy of Planescape Torment to run right. I also experienced numerous crashes and constant slow down from Civ V. O and that reminds me, a year or so ago I had a problem with Steam where I could not play a game for more then like 15 mins before it would crash on me. Turns out it was a hiccup with my antivirus These are just the examples that pop in my head instantly and from the last few months. Meanwhile I have NEVER had a problem with a console game(thankfully I never bought Fallout, but id say thats a PC game anyways). Consoles are FAR superior in the bug department, very few are buggy and those that are are generally PC franchises making their way to console.
[quote name='MSI Magus']@Longshot - First off a PS2 lasting 3 years is not normal. Its like getting a PC and the RAM burning out after a few months. Most people still have their old fat PS2 models...hell most still have their old fat NES systems working! Second off you say you have not had to upgrade your PC in 5 years, but that is thanks to consoles. Most PC developers design their games for the console now and port it to the PC. This means that the specs required to play them are greatly reduced when compared to past generations where PC gaming drove hardware.
@Mikeerrrrr - Um no. Yes you can use a game pad for many PC games now days but not for all and def not for old games. Making the argument that you can use a 360 controller on the PC is only slightly more rational then arguing that console games can be played with keyboard and mouse(which some can). Thankfully its becoming more and more common for PC games to feature 360 control support, but its no where near 100% support yet. It also does not change the fact that I am stuck sitting at my PC then vs on my nice comfy rocking chair.
@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.[/QUOTE]
Re: controllers: xpadder. That is all.
@Mikeerrrrr - Um no. Yes you can use a game pad for many PC games now days but not for all and def not for old games. Making the argument that you can use a 360 controller on the PC is only slightly more rational then arguing that console games can be played with keyboard and mouse(which some can). Thankfully its becoming more and more common for PC games to feature 360 control support, but its no where near 100% support yet. It also does not change the fact that I am stuck sitting at my PC then vs on my nice comfy rocking chair.
@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.[/QUOTE]
Re: controllers: xpadder. That is all.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='MSI Magus']@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.[/QUOTE]
I own a LAN/Tabletop store in NYC. I am also an avid LAN player @ the CUNY schools. Besides seeing console games are family and friends homes I see them all over.
In more than one post/thread I have talked about this before on CAG.
In the LAN store, I don't support console games but some of the customers come with their units and they rent a table and play there. I have seen the game bugs happen because everyone knows my stance...they come over and tell me or my wife...'look Zell it
ing happen again...'...in fact next to the bathroom is a list of how many units have died at the store that the kids put up
In the LAN games @ CUNY the group is divided by 2 groups PC and Consoles...the consolers are always crying about something from their section of the lobby. You know how many grown men and women I seen crying because their unit died on them in the middle of a $ tournament. Man I spend half that night unable to play because my hands are so weak from laughter.
I don' have to play the games to see that they are cookie cut...that's evident in the marketing and what others show me. The same way I won't have to be in prison to realize I don't want to go there.
You can defend your consoles all you like but everything I have stated has been document very well in RL and on the web.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.[/QUOTE]
I own a LAN/Tabletop store in NYC. I am also an avid LAN player @ the CUNY schools. Besides seeing console games are family and friends homes I see them all over.
In more than one post/thread I have talked about this before on CAG.
In the LAN store, I don't support console games but some of the customers come with their units and they rent a table and play there. I have seen the game bugs happen because everyone knows my stance...they come over and tell me or my wife...'look Zell it
ing happen again...'...in fact next to the bathroom is a list of how many units have died at the store that the kids put up In the LAN games @ CUNY the group is divided by 2 groups PC and Consoles...the consolers are always crying about something from their section of the lobby. You know how many grown men and women I seen crying because their unit died on them in the middle of a $ tournament. Man I spend half that night unable to play because my hands are so weak from laughter.
I don' have to play the games to see that they are cookie cut...that's evident in the marketing and what others show me. The same way I won't have to be in prison to realize I don't want to go there.
You can defend your consoles all you like but everything I have stated has been document very well in RL and on the web.
[quote name='Megazell']The issue with control was true back in the 1990's....If you are a PC gamer and want to play a game via control...you can do so if you want to. There are plenty of free options and programs out there to help. I've play 90's of all of my games via gamepad from MMORPGs, RTS to Platformers and Fighters...
'[/QUOTE]
Yes and like everything with the PC it is a headache. Instead of just plug and play like with the console, if I want to play a PC game in comfort I need to.
1. Unhook my monitor wires and hunch over my TV hooking the wires to the TV then changing the settings.
2. Find a program to switch the controls around.
3. Find out that the progam is finicky and hates my anti virus or my version of windows, or an update to DIv X or god knows what.
4. Finally get everything working, move my chair across the room and play.
You know what I need to do with a console? Turn it on and play
To quote myself in the other topic and give what I truely view as a basic fact. PC gaming is great and console gaming is great, they are just great for different reasons. PC gaming is a sports car, if you have the money or the know how to fix one you think they are great, they are flashy, fast and built for performance! Meanwhile if you are your average Joe Schmoe without that knowledge you are better off with a console/Ford Focus(or some other basic car). Yes its not as flashy and no it does not have as many options, but it does not break down as often and when it does it is far easier/cheaper to fix. The life style it provides is also very cushy and comfortable.
Anyways, thanks to everyone for debating so polite, but I have to split! My wife is sick and requesting I make soup and watch a movie with her!
'[/QUOTE]
Yes and like everything with the PC it is a headache. Instead of just plug and play like with the console, if I want to play a PC game in comfort I need to.
1. Unhook my monitor wires and hunch over my TV hooking the wires to the TV then changing the settings.
2. Find a program to switch the controls around.
3. Find out that the progam is finicky and hates my anti virus or my version of windows, or an update to DIv X or god knows what.
4. Finally get everything working, move my chair across the room and play.
You know what I need to do with a console? Turn it on and play
To quote myself in the other topic and give what I truely view as a basic fact. PC gaming is great and console gaming is great, they are just great for different reasons. PC gaming is a sports car, if you have the money or the know how to fix one you think they are great, they are flashy, fast and built for performance! Meanwhile if you are your average Joe Schmoe without that knowledge you are better off with a console/Ford Focus(or some other basic car). Yes its not as flashy and no it does not have as many options, but it does not break down as often and when it does it is far easier/cheaper to fix. The life style it provides is also very cushy and comfortable.
Anyways, thanks to everyone for debating so polite, but I have to split! My wife is sick and requesting I make soup and watch a movie with her!
DurbanBrown
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Console Gamer 100%. always and forever. thats just the way its been and the way it will continue for me personally. love the controller, hate the keyboard. the end.
TheLongshot
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[quote name='MSI Magus']@Longshot - First off a PS2 lasting 3 years is not normal. Its like getting a PC and the RAM burning out after a few months. Most people still have their old fat PS2 models...hell most still have their old fat NES systems working! Second off you say you have not had to upgrade your PC in 5 years, but that is thanks to consoles. Most PC developers design their games for the console now and port it to the PC. This means that the specs required to play them are greatly reduced when compared to past generations where PC gaming drove hardware.[/quote]
The thing is, the modern consoles have had issues with reliability even moreso than their predicessors. Both PS3s and XBox 360s have had issues that have made some glorified bricks. Hell, I had a friend of mine who had to send back his 360 and he was without for over a week. (Given it was also his DVD player, it was a double whammy.)
But, the nice thing about PCs is that you can adjust most games to what your system can handle. Fact is, most of the "endless upgrade cycle" was mostly pushed by the manufacturers and the gaming press that pushed for the latest and greatest. There are certainly those games which were very demanding of the system they were on, but I personally think those were more the exception than the rule. The only real limitation that I saw was when DX10 games were coming out and people were still using XP, but even that was a minority of games.
The thing is, the modern consoles have had issues with reliability even moreso than their predicessors. Both PS3s and XBox 360s have had issues that have made some glorified bricks. Hell, I had a friend of mine who had to send back his 360 and he was without for over a week. (Given it was also his DVD player, it was a double whammy.)
But, the nice thing about PCs is that you can adjust most games to what your system can handle. Fact is, most of the "endless upgrade cycle" was mostly pushed by the manufacturers and the gaming press that pushed for the latest and greatest. There are certainly those games which were very demanding of the system they were on, but I personally think those were more the exception than the rule. The only real limitation that I saw was when DX10 games were coming out and people were still using XP, but even that was a minority of games.
Megazell, I keep forgetting to thank you for linking the older post. I'll read through it later when I have more time.
[quote name='MSI Magus']@Longshot - First off a PS2 lasting 3 years is not normal. Its like getting a PC and the RAM burning out after a few months. Most people still have their old fat PS2 models...hell most still have their old fat NES systems working! Second off you say you have not had to upgrade your PC in 5 years, but that is thanks to consoles. Most PC developers design their games for the console now and port it to the PC. This means that the specs required to play them are greatly reduced when compared to past generations where PC gaming drove hardware.
@Mikeerrrrr - Um no. Yes you can use a game pad for many PC games now days but not for all and def not for old games. Making the argument that you can use a 360 controller on the PC is only slightly more rational then arguing that console games can be played with keyboard and mouse(which some can). Thankfully its becoming more and more common for PC games to feature 360 control support, but its no where near 100% support yet. It also does not change the fact that I am stuck sitting at my PC then vs on my nice comfy rocking chair.
@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.[/QUOTE]
I really feel that short life of consoles and PCs are due more towards poor maintenance/care habits and a little less due to manufacturer defects. As I explained earlier, PC upgrades really are not that frequent if you use minimum specs as the bar rather than recommended specs, and consoles due tend to have very long lives if handled properly.
That fewer upgrades argument due to consoles is not something that I can agree with, unfortunately. Not every game is a port, and even ports themselves generally tend to require more hardware than their console equivalent. While it's hard to say what is the norm for ports, I do know that many ports end up building semi-virtualized versions of the console to run on as opposed to full code re-writes. This is simply a function of cost, is it cheaper to write a virtualizing engine or to rewrite X amount of code? Would there be greater purchases on the PC if we rewrite enough code to take advantage of the latest hardware trend? The fact that one can go 5 years without an upgrade is still a significant point in the cost factor.
As for gamepads, there are many utilities out there to map gamepad buttons to keyboard controls which free you from relying on developer offered options. While there are games that just won't translate well to the controller no matter how you do this, the option is almost always there.
The difficulty level of the console versus PC is a valid argument to make, especially in light of the controller issue. The problem is that there are certain classes of games (such as FPSes and RTSes) which gives a significant advantage to a precise control mechanic. The more precise your mouse, the better leverage you can get out of skill. Controllers, unfortunately, are not precise devices. That's why so many FPSes have some level of auto-aim built in, and also why so many developers split their PC multiplayer pool from the console multiplayer pool. The difficulty of using a controller against a skilled mouse user is typically too great to overcome.
I've acknowledged your cost argument a couple of times before, but I do not agree with this latest statement. While building a PC does require more effort than just plugging in a console, it is by no means difficult. PC parts have become so standardized nowadays that they are almost like plugging lego's together, albeit with a couple of wire and screws thrown in. Most wires have custom plugs designed to ensure that they cannot be misplugged. I've taught a few of my non-tech friends how to build their own computers before, and all it really took was a basic understanding of static protection and clean environments followed by writing a step by step guide for them. It's not hard at all. The difficult part is troubleshooting and fixing when things go wrong, and with internet access (I strongly recommend that you have a working computer other than the one you are building if you are a first time builder) you can find many forums that cater to free answers to computer problems (mind you, it's not instant answers, but many leave answers up so you can find an answer already submitted). Building does take time, it is definitely more effort than a console, but it's not especially difficult to do.
I'll have to agree on cookie cutter games, for slightly different reasons. PCs have far more cookie cutter games than consoles, it's just that the lower number of titles on consoles due to development licenses makes the cookie cutter games stand out more.
[quote name='MSI Magus']@Longshot - First off a PS2 lasting 3 years is not normal. Its like getting a PC and the RAM burning out after a few months. Most people still have their old fat PS2 models...hell most still have their old fat NES systems working! Second off you say you have not had to upgrade your PC in 5 years, but that is thanks to consoles. Most PC developers design their games for the console now and port it to the PC. This means that the specs required to play them are greatly reduced when compared to past generations where PC gaming drove hardware.
@Mikeerrrrr - Um no. Yes you can use a game pad for many PC games now days but not for all and def not for old games. Making the argument that you can use a 360 controller on the PC is only slightly more rational then arguing that console games can be played with keyboard and mouse(which some can). Thankfully its becoming more and more common for PC games to feature 360 control support, but its no where near 100% support yet. It also does not change the fact that I am stuck sitting at my PC then vs on my nice comfy rocking chair.
@megazell - Problem with you argument is that 90% of PC games unless you go in to the indy scene are on the console too. This means if you argue that console games are too easy you must admit that most PC games are too easy. There are also plenty of examples of easy PC games and plenty of examples(DEMON SOULS!!!!)of difficult console games. It also kind of invalidates your views that you admit that you only play free games...meaning you only must play console games at friends/family.
I have already adressed the subject of cost and again find that the only reason that most PC gamers can argue this is because they are snobs. You all fix your own PC and make your own rig in the first place and then act like anyone that can not is an idiot. Do you recall me posting a few weeks back asking in the PC build thread for a good place to buy a prebuilt for a friend? She has no knowledge of how to make/fix her PC, out of my dozens of family members only two can fix/build a PC and out of the dozens of others I know only 3 or 4 can build a PC. When you take away the cost savings of building/fixing your own PC the PC looses its advantage....and becomes way more expensive.
On the subject of cookie cutter games again I ask how can you judge when you do not play many console games. I also ask you to show me games like Muramasa, Demon souls, Flower, Flow, Katmari etc etc. I think you are judging this as a PC fan and not as someone with experience with consoles. Say this is like saying all PCs are good for is RTS and FPSers.[/QUOTE]
I really feel that short life of consoles and PCs are due more towards poor maintenance/care habits and a little less due to manufacturer defects. As I explained earlier, PC upgrades really are not that frequent if you use minimum specs as the bar rather than recommended specs, and consoles due tend to have very long lives if handled properly.
That fewer upgrades argument due to consoles is not something that I can agree with, unfortunately. Not every game is a port, and even ports themselves generally tend to require more hardware than their console equivalent. While it's hard to say what is the norm for ports, I do know that many ports end up building semi-virtualized versions of the console to run on as opposed to full code re-writes. This is simply a function of cost, is it cheaper to write a virtualizing engine or to rewrite X amount of code? Would there be greater purchases on the PC if we rewrite enough code to take advantage of the latest hardware trend? The fact that one can go 5 years without an upgrade is still a significant point in the cost factor.
As for gamepads, there are many utilities out there to map gamepad buttons to keyboard controls which free you from relying on developer offered options. While there are games that just won't translate well to the controller no matter how you do this, the option is almost always there.
The difficulty level of the console versus PC is a valid argument to make, especially in light of the controller issue. The problem is that there are certain classes of games (such as FPSes and RTSes) which gives a significant advantage to a precise control mechanic. The more precise your mouse, the better leverage you can get out of skill. Controllers, unfortunately, are not precise devices. That's why so many FPSes have some level of auto-aim built in, and also why so many developers split their PC multiplayer pool from the console multiplayer pool. The difficulty of using a controller against a skilled mouse user is typically too great to overcome.
I've acknowledged your cost argument a couple of times before, but I do not agree with this latest statement. While building a PC does require more effort than just plugging in a console, it is by no means difficult. PC parts have become so standardized nowadays that they are almost like plugging lego's together, albeit with a couple of wire and screws thrown in. Most wires have custom plugs designed to ensure that they cannot be misplugged. I've taught a few of my non-tech friends how to build their own computers before, and all it really took was a basic understanding of static protection and clean environments followed by writing a step by step guide for them. It's not hard at all. The difficult part is troubleshooting and fixing when things go wrong, and with internet access (I strongly recommend that you have a working computer other than the one you are building if you are a first time builder) you can find many forums that cater to free answers to computer problems (mind you, it's not instant answers, but many leave answers up so you can find an answer already submitted). Building does take time, it is definitely more effort than a console, but it's not especially difficult to do.
I'll have to agree on cookie cutter games, for slightly different reasons. PCs have far more cookie cutter games than consoles, it's just that the lower number of titles on consoles due to development licenses makes the cookie cutter games stand out more.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='TheLongshot']Megazell,
I've kinda gone the other way in recent years. I used to be an exclusively PC gamer, even with a dalliance with SNES for a bit. But, three years ago, I got into console gaming. The main motivation was Guitar Hero, which I wanted to do but PC options were very limited. It also wasn't something that lent itself to one sitting in front of a PC doing. For me, the main motivation with me playing consoles is to play games that aren't available on PCs, which are many nowadays.
Also, now that I have a kid, it is nice to have a device that my son isn't going to get lost on and not figure out how to get back to where he wants to be.
That being said, the past year I've been getting back into PC gaming where I could, and it has been a rewarding experience, particualrly with how cheap Steam games are. That is something consoles really can't compete with very well right now.[/QUOTE]
I hear you. Your point was still valid, though.
I stop the traditional PC gaming format myself years ago. I have 2 kids and they rock a host of PC games via game pads and projectors from the couch or bed.
When a console title comes out that many ppl gawk at I usually find something like - If not the actual game itself.
There was a Wii blob game that my kids wanted to play after doing some digging found out it was also freeware for the PC - The Blob
The motion mouse is a great tool for that game.
Longshot is still my favorite character even though I don't read Marvel anymore
I've kinda gone the other way in recent years. I used to be an exclusively PC gamer, even with a dalliance with SNES for a bit. But, three years ago, I got into console gaming. The main motivation was Guitar Hero, which I wanted to do but PC options were very limited. It also wasn't something that lent itself to one sitting in front of a PC doing. For me, the main motivation with me playing consoles is to play games that aren't available on PCs, which are many nowadays.
Also, now that I have a kid, it is nice to have a device that my son isn't going to get lost on and not figure out how to get back to where he wants to be.
That being said, the past year I've been getting back into PC gaming where I could, and it has been a rewarding experience, particualrly with how cheap Steam games are. That is something consoles really can't compete with very well right now.[/QUOTE]
I hear you. Your point was still valid, though.
I stop the traditional PC gaming format myself years ago. I have 2 kids and they rock a host of PC games via game pads and projectors from the couch or bed.
When a console title comes out that many ppl gawk at I usually find something like - If not the actual game itself.
There was a Wii blob game that my kids wanted to play after doing some digging found out it was also freeware for the PC - The Blob
The motion mouse is a great tool for that game.
Longshot is still my favorite character even though I don't read Marvel anymore
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='MSI Magus']Yes and like everything with the PC it is a headache. Instead of just plug and play like with the console, if I want to play a PC game in comfort I need to.
1. Unhook my monitor wires and hunch over my TV hooking the wires to the TV then changing the settings.
2. Find a program to switch the controls around.
3. Find out that the progam is finicky and hates my anti virus or my version of windows, or an update to DIv X or god knows what.
4. Finally get everything working, move my chair across the room and play.
You know what I need to do with a console? Turn it on and play
To quote myself in the other topic and give what I truely view as a basic fact. PC gaming is great and console gaming is great, they are just great for different reasons. PC gaming is a sports car, if you have the money or the know how to fix one you think they are great, they are flashy, fast and built for performance! Meanwhile if you are your average Joe Schmoe without that knowledge you are better off with a console/Ford Focus(or some other basic car). Yes its not as flashy and no it does not have as many options, but it does not break down as often and when it does it is far easier/cheaper to fix. The life style it provides is also very cushy and comfortable.
Anyways, thanks to everyone for debating so polite, but I have to split! My wife is sick and requesting I make soup and watch a movie with her![/QUOTE]
If you know you are going to playing your games a certain why would you hook up your PC like that?
While you going through all of that I use a universal remote and press 2 buttons at most...or....on dark days....I click....
#
Consoles don't turn on and play anymore. They turn on...wait for update...if you are offline...inform you that you can not play this game offline...etc.
1. Unhook my monitor wires and hunch over my TV hooking the wires to the TV then changing the settings.
2. Find a program to switch the controls around.
3. Find out that the progam is finicky and hates my anti virus or my version of windows, or an update to DIv X or god knows what.
4. Finally get everything working, move my chair across the room and play.
You know what I need to do with a console? Turn it on and play
To quote myself in the other topic and give what I truely view as a basic fact. PC gaming is great and console gaming is great, they are just great for different reasons. PC gaming is a sports car, if you have the money or the know how to fix one you think they are great, they are flashy, fast and built for performance! Meanwhile if you are your average Joe Schmoe without that knowledge you are better off with a console/Ford Focus(or some other basic car). Yes its not as flashy and no it does not have as many options, but it does not break down as often and when it does it is far easier/cheaper to fix. The life style it provides is also very cushy and comfortable.
Anyways, thanks to everyone for debating so polite, but I have to split! My wife is sick and requesting I make soup and watch a movie with her![/QUOTE]
If you know you are going to playing your games a certain why would you hook up your PC like that?
While you going through all of that I use a universal remote and press 2 buttons at most...or....on dark days....I click....
#Consoles don't turn on and play anymore. They turn on...wait for update...if you are offline...inform you that you can not play this game offline...etc.
Do not have time to make a full post or respond to everyone, but just wanted to add something towards Megazell. Thing is that everyone else in this topic seems to come from a reasonable place, even if I do not agree with them it seems like there is a give and a take and the complaints are reasonable. You just seem to outright dislike console games. The way you act/treat them is like a guy that lives in an all white neighborhood and thinks all black guys are thieves just because one time a black guy took your TV. Honestly you make such generic and ignorant statements such as console games are cookie cutter which shows your ignorance, but your so out there you can not even see the horrid reaction on the rest of our faces.
Not trying to be rude or start a problem, I just find it annoying that everyone else seems to be experienced on both the console and PC side, and pretty much everyone has positive to say about both....and all you do is crap on consoles and most of said crap is WAY out there.
Not trying to be rude or start a problem, I just find it annoying that everyone else seems to be experienced on both the console and PC side, and pretty much everyone has positive to say about both....and all you do is crap on consoles and most of said crap is WAY out there.
TheLongshot
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[quote name='MSI Magus']Yes and like everything with the PC it is a headache. Instead of just plug and play like with the console, if I want to play a PC game in comfort I need to.
1. Unhook my monitor wires and hunch over my TV hooking the wires to the TV then changing the settings.
2. Find a program to switch the controls around.
3. Find out that the progam is finicky and hates my anti virus or my version of windows, or an update to DIv X or god knows what.
4. Finally get everything working, move my chair across the room and play.
You know what I need to do with a console? Turn it on and play[/QUOTE]
Actually, if you do some basic setup, it isn't much different.
1) If you have a dual head video card (which most are nowadays), your computer can already be hooked up to your TV. My computer is hooked up to a front projector. While you might need to switch which is your main monitor, that's trivial.
2) Again, if you have the controller set up (I have a Logitech wireless rumblepad) there isn't much you need to do beyond launching the game.
3) To be honest, I haven't run across AV issues in a LONG time. Again, if the game is set up, there shouldn't be any unexpected issues.
4) You don't have a chair in front of your TV?
Setting up a console can be a PITA if you want it to fit in your cabinent, find a power plug, route it to your receiver and making sure all the connections are hooked up correctly. Personally, I'm running out of connectors to put things.
1. Unhook my monitor wires and hunch over my TV hooking the wires to the TV then changing the settings.
2. Find a program to switch the controls around.
3. Find out that the progam is finicky and hates my anti virus or my version of windows, or an update to DIv X or god knows what.
4. Finally get everything working, move my chair across the room and play.
You know what I need to do with a console? Turn it on and play[/QUOTE]
Actually, if you do some basic setup, it isn't much different.
1) If you have a dual head video card (which most are nowadays), your computer can already be hooked up to your TV. My computer is hooked up to a front projector. While you might need to switch which is your main monitor, that's trivial.
2) Again, if you have the controller set up (I have a Logitech wireless rumblepad) there isn't much you need to do beyond launching the game.
3) To be honest, I haven't run across AV issues in a LONG time. Again, if the game is set up, there shouldn't be any unexpected issues.
4) You don't have a chair in front of your TV?
Setting up a console can be a PITA if you want it to fit in your cabinent, find a power plug, route it to your receiver and making sure all the connections are hooked up correctly. Personally, I'm running out of connectors to put things.
Ermmm I also wanted to point out that putting this in the PC gaming section was a very bad move. Its like posting a PS3 vs 360 topic in the PS3 section...do you not think you are going to get 90% PS3 support? It actually makes me not want to continue this discussion because it means its going to draw PC fanatics vs people like babu who are willing to see/admit both sides.
The interesting thing about the cost arguement, to me, has been we have been concentrating on the cost of the hardware. The main reason I've been buying more and more games on the PC is because the games are 95% of the time cheaper (thanks mainly to Steam). I'm not just talking about $5 to $10 dollars, sometimes you can get the a PC game for $10 that hasn't dropped below $30 on the consoles. Plus when you factor in the free content PC games get (like Team Fortress 2, both L4Ds, etc) that even drives down the cost further. Saving money on software really helps offset the higher cost of hardware in a relatively short period of time.
MSI has been circling this point, but I do agree with him that PC gaming will require more of a time investment, but I would argue you get a higher rate of return on your investment with PC gaming. It sounds like he had one of the "problem PCs". I feel for him and totally understand his points coming from dealing with PC where it is one issue after another. It isn't that different from the people that have had 3 or 4 360s, or me who is on his second 360 and would be on his second PS3 if I didn't replace the laser (which was a major pain versus just sliding a new drive into a PC).
MSI I hope your next PC build goes better. Maybe next time a local CAG can help you out with any issues you experience.
MSI has been circling this point, but I do agree with him that PC gaming will require more of a time investment, but I would argue you get a higher rate of return on your investment with PC gaming. It sounds like he had one of the "problem PCs". I feel for him and totally understand his points coming from dealing with PC where it is one issue after another. It isn't that different from the people that have had 3 or 4 360s, or me who is on his second 360 and would be on his second PS3 if I didn't replace the laser (which was a major pain versus just sliding a new drive into a PC).
MSI I hope your next PC build goes better. Maybe next time a local CAG can help you out with any issues you experience.
[quote name='MSI Magus']Just in the last few months on the PC side I have had steam jack up my Plants vs Zombie and Torchlight saves and spent hours trying to get my good ole games copy of Planescape Torment to run right. I also experienced numerous crashes and constant slow down from Civ V. O and that reminds me, a year or so ago I had a problem with Steam where I could not play a game for more then like 15 mins before it would crash on me. Turns out it was a hiccup with my antivirus These are just the examples that pop in my head instantly and from the last few months. Meanwhile I have NEVER had a problem with a console game(thankfully I never bought Fallout, but id say thats a PC game anyways). Consoles are FAR superior in the bug department, very few are buggy and those that are are generally PC franchises making their way to console.[/QUOTE]
*waggles hand* The problem is that you need to remember that your personal experience does not reflect on everyone's experience. Off the top of my head, I can think of Wii official update bricking (despite their claims that it only happens to pirates, I've seen it happen twice to brand new units purchased and updated without a single game or homebrew touching it), the PS3 leap year bug, original XBox disc cracking, XBox360 RROD, PS2 lens failures, etc. Software side, there are exploits and bugs on almost every major release regardless of platform. Gran Turismo 5 has the server bug that apparently is affecting some aspects of single players, as you touched on Fallout 3 and NV has issues, Oblivion had bugs, Halo had bugs, there was that one bug in one of the recent warfare FPSes on the console that allowed one hit kills after death (and subsequent banning of people who exploited it), etc. I don't play as many console titles as others, so this list is by no means exhaustive. It just illustrates the point that both platforms have bugs.
Porting a console developed title introduces a new vector for bugs and problems, which usually translates to more bugs and problems overall. There are always exceptions (as I tried to illustrate with the artist/masterpiece thing earlier), but this is a general truth.
To be honest, as mentioned earlier, this has a lot more to due to poor programming discipline and very little to do with platform. To many modern developers and publishers are comfortable with the mindset of "Oh, we can always issue a patch afterwards" and this results in the bug fest we have in today's modern market.
Anti-virus issues are a different kettle of fish altogether, and really don't factor into this argument. Viruses are found wherever an interest lies, and as the Mac crowd learned a few years back, bragging about how viruses don't affect you (in large enough number of brags) results in enthusiast virus writers setting out to prove you wrong. PC viruses are greater in number simply because there are far more PCs around than other devices, not because of anything special on the consoles apart from obscure code.
*waggles hand* The problem is that you need to remember that your personal experience does not reflect on everyone's experience. Off the top of my head, I can think of Wii official update bricking (despite their claims that it only happens to pirates, I've seen it happen twice to brand new units purchased and updated without a single game or homebrew touching it), the PS3 leap year bug, original XBox disc cracking, XBox360 RROD, PS2 lens failures, etc. Software side, there are exploits and bugs on almost every major release regardless of platform. Gran Turismo 5 has the server bug that apparently is affecting some aspects of single players, as you touched on Fallout 3 and NV has issues, Oblivion had bugs, Halo had bugs, there was that one bug in one of the recent warfare FPSes on the console that allowed one hit kills after death (and subsequent banning of people who exploited it), etc. I don't play as many console titles as others, so this list is by no means exhaustive. It just illustrates the point that both platforms have bugs.
Porting a console developed title introduces a new vector for bugs and problems, which usually translates to more bugs and problems overall. There are always exceptions (as I tried to illustrate with the artist/masterpiece thing earlier), but this is a general truth.
To be honest, as mentioned earlier, this has a lot more to due to poor programming discipline and very little to do with platform. To many modern developers and publishers are comfortable with the mindset of "Oh, we can always issue a patch afterwards" and this results in the bug fest we have in today's modern market.
Anti-virus issues are a different kettle of fish altogether, and really don't factor into this argument. Viruses are found wherever an interest lies, and as the Mac crowd learned a few years back, bragging about how viruses don't affect you (in large enough number of brags) results in enthusiast virus writers setting out to prove you wrong. PC viruses are greater in number simply because there are far more PCs around than other devices, not because of anything special on the consoles apart from obscure code.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='MSI Magus']Do not have time to make a full post or respond to everyone, but just wanted to add something towards Megazell. Thing is that everyone else in this topic seems to come from a reasonable place, even if I do not agree with them it seems like there is a give and a take and the complaints are reasonable. You just seem to outright dislike console games. The way you act/treat them is like a guy that lives in an all white neighborhood and thinks all black guys are thieves just because one time a black guy took your TV. Honestly you make such generic and ignorant statements such as console games are cookie cutter which shows your ignorance, but your so out there you can not even see the horrid reaction on the rest of our faces.
Not trying to be rude or start a problem, I just find it annoying that everyone else seems to be experienced on both the console and PC side, and pretty much everyone has positive to say about both....and all you do is crap on consoles and most of said crap is WAY out there.[/QUOTE]
First off - You first half is highly inappropriate, for one that is trying to have a civil discourse.
You using Tea Party logic and trying to demonize me for not agreeing with you or like the others.
I personally, don't see anything positive with the current state of the console market. Period. I mean it is going great for the developers and publishing houses but I don't see it being good for the gamers since the negative outweighs the good.
What have I stated that is inaccurate? What exactly did I state that is way out there?
Not trying to be rude or start a problem, I just find it annoying that everyone else seems to be experienced on both the console and PC side, and pretty much everyone has positive to say about both....and all you do is crap on consoles and most of said crap is WAY out there.[/QUOTE]
First off - You first half is highly inappropriate, for one that is trying to have a civil discourse.
You using Tea Party logic and trying to demonize me for not agreeing with you or like the others.
I personally, don't see anything positive with the current state of the console market. Period. I mean it is going great for the developers and publishing houses but I don't see it being good for the gamers since the negative outweighs the good.
What have I stated that is inaccurate? What exactly did I state that is way out there?
HisDivineShadow
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EDIT: Moved from the Steam Thread:
[quote name='MSI Magus']I disagree on console life span vs computer life span for two big reasons. First off console gaming has generally been extremely reliable up to this gen which outside the 360 is still fairly reliable. The PS2 had some issues at launch with DRE, but Sony fixed them and most people still have working fat PS2's and their original GC.....hell most of us still have working Nintendos and Super Nintendos if we kept them, how many PC gamers can say that about a PC they bought 15 years ago?[/quote]
NES had problems reading CARTs. Eventually, would lead to complete failure. This was widespread. "Blow on your game!"
Xbox had widespread power cable/power supply failures. They even had to announce a recall on the cables involved to try and replace them. This was caught at the tail end of the console's life when they were ready to dump the console as a failure and move the generation to the 360 to get away from its many failures (sales, cost, marketshare). However, its power supply/cable issues also bled over into the steering wheel accessories for both the Xbox and 360, causing them to be plagued with the same issues.
360's failures are well known RROD, DDE, etc. No need to beat a dead horse, except to remind that this was a case where a $400 launch console that sounded like an aircraft carrier blended with a race car track during Daytona would fail within a year AT LEAST 33% of the time. Where every IGN editor (every single one) had their launch console die within one year's time. Where one of their programs is named, "Three red lights."
Firmware updates are constantly causing failures on consoles, including Wii, 360, and PS3. This happens with every firmware update. Sometimes, it is more widespread than others, but especially around the BIG updates they do during the Fall (The Fail?).
So I think you're using the history of consoles to mask the current reality of consoles. They fail a lot more often than most electronics and easily on the scale of a pre-built gaming PC.
[quote name='MSI Magus'] The second big reason is because with a PC if you do not know what your doing youred when a single thing goes wrong. If something goes wrong with my console in the first year or two I generally can just return it to the store I bought it, if its after that a lot of times you can send it in to the manufacturer and they fix it for $100 regardless of whats wrong with it. If your a PC gamer and you are good with PCs you can fix it yourself...but often only after hours worth of diagnostic work and headaches and then discovering you need a new $200 graphics card. If you are a PC gamer and you do not know how to fix a PC(which is still most of the worlds population)you would be looking at $50-$200 to take it in to a PC expert and have them determine the problem, then another $100-$400 for parts and labor. Generally if something on your PC breaks and you can not fix it yourself your looking at $150-$300 easy.
[/quote]
Unless of course you treated your gaming PC like your console and bought it pre-built and have a warranty on it. If you go past the typical warranty period and did not buy the EXTENDED warranty, then you pay to have it repaired/replaced, just as you would on a console. The only difference is that you have the OPTION to save some money, build your own PC, and take on the warranty/repairs of the computer as a whole (with individual warranties on the different components) yourself.
You speak as though the gaming PC must be bought and built. This is not so. It can be pre-built. And you can buy a mostly built PC and update the video card alone to make a gaming PC out of most of the cheaper desktops.
[quote name='MSI Magus']
So, as I said I disagree strongly there. I find consoles more reliable before this generation and pretty on par this generation. And I also find that fixing a PC that breaks down is pretty on par to a console that breaks if your a fix it yourself person, but vastly more expensive and annoying if your not.[/quote]
Wrong. Fixing a PC is a lot simpler due to how easy it is to get into the case because it's BUILT for you to do so. If you are fixing it yourself, it's easier for the user to get into the OS (because the gaming OS is not built to be manipulated), easier for you to get inside the hardware (because the console's case is not built to be opened), and easier for you to figure out what's wrong because the whole thing is built by you (if it IS built by you). Even if you buy a pre-built one, it is still easier to open and access than the console's. In the scenario where you are fixing it yourself, PC's are easier to fix. No if's, and's, or but's.
Consoles do not allow you to open them completely without violating your warranty and do not allow you any capacity to manipulate the underlying software or even regress firmware updates.
If BUYING repair services, the consoles may be cheaper, depending on what is wrong with the computer. But the computer is capable of so much more than the console, it becomes a cost-benefit scenario where you pay $100 to get your gaming console back or you pay $200 to get your gaming computer that also houses your music, your videos, your photos, can allow you to use MS Office, produce videos, edit photos, stream movies (to your consoles ironically enough), etc.
[quote name='MSI Magus']
As we seem to agree on at this point though I think this really comes down to your needs and your means. If you can build, fix and maintain your own PC then I think it works out quite a bit better for you, especially given the fact that PC developers are not pushing technology these last 5-6 years like they had the last decade or two. If you can not, well chances are you are not nearly as big of a PC fan.[/QUOTE]
PC developers have all become indie developers. All the hardcore PC developers of yesteryear, sans Valve and Blizzard, have become console developers first, PC porters, and the lack of hardware change in the consoles has led to the games not pushing PC hardware hard at all. We're in year 5 of the 360. It only took a year for the gaming PC to match 360 visuals at higher resolutions and everything since then has been gravy.
The longer that the console makers keep this generation going, the better the PC value proposition will become. It does not take much on the PC side to match the specialized, cut-down version of the Geforce 7900 in the PS3 or the very specialized prototype of the Radeon 2600 in the 360. To say nothing of the Gamecube-level hardware of the Wii.
[quote name='MSI Magus']I disagree on console life span vs computer life span for two big reasons. First off console gaming has generally been extremely reliable up to this gen which outside the 360 is still fairly reliable. The PS2 had some issues at launch with DRE, but Sony fixed them and most people still have working fat PS2's and their original GC.....hell most of us still have working Nintendos and Super Nintendos if we kept them, how many PC gamers can say that about a PC they bought 15 years ago?[/quote]
NES had problems reading CARTs. Eventually, would lead to complete failure. This was widespread. "Blow on your game!"
Xbox had widespread power cable/power supply failures. They even had to announce a recall on the cables involved to try and replace them. This was caught at the tail end of the console's life when they were ready to dump the console as a failure and move the generation to the 360 to get away from its many failures (sales, cost, marketshare). However, its power supply/cable issues also bled over into the steering wheel accessories for both the Xbox and 360, causing them to be plagued with the same issues.
360's failures are well known RROD, DDE, etc. No need to beat a dead horse, except to remind that this was a case where a $400 launch console that sounded like an aircraft carrier blended with a race car track during Daytona would fail within a year AT LEAST 33% of the time. Where every IGN editor (every single one) had their launch console die within one year's time. Where one of their programs is named, "Three red lights."
Firmware updates are constantly causing failures on consoles, including Wii, 360, and PS3. This happens with every firmware update. Sometimes, it is more widespread than others, but especially around the BIG updates they do during the Fall (The Fail?).
So I think you're using the history of consoles to mask the current reality of consoles. They fail a lot more often than most electronics and easily on the scale of a pre-built gaming PC.
[quote name='MSI Magus'] The second big reason is because with a PC if you do not know what your doing your
ed when a single thing goes wrong. If something goes wrong with my console in the first year or two I generally can just return it to the store I bought it, if its after that a lot of times you can send it in to the manufacturer and they fix it for $100 regardless of whats wrong with it. If your a PC gamer and you are good with PCs you can fix it yourself...but often only after hours worth of diagnostic work and headaches and then discovering you need a new $200 graphics card. If you are a PC gamer and you do not know how to fix a PC(which is still most of the worlds population)you would be looking at $50-$200 to take it in to a PC expert and have them determine the problem, then another $100-$400 for parts and labor. Generally if something on your PC breaks and you can not fix it yourself your looking at $150-$300 easy.[/quote]
Unless of course you treated your gaming PC like your console and bought it pre-built and have a warranty on it. If you go past the typical warranty period and did not buy the EXTENDED warranty, then you pay to have it repaired/replaced, just as you would on a console. The only difference is that you have the OPTION to save some money, build your own PC, and take on the warranty/repairs of the computer as a whole (with individual warranties on the different components) yourself.
You speak as though the gaming PC must be bought and built. This is not so. It can be pre-built. And you can buy a mostly built PC and update the video card alone to make a gaming PC out of most of the cheaper desktops.
[quote name='MSI Magus']
So, as I said I disagree strongly there. I find consoles more reliable before this generation and pretty on par this generation. And I also find that fixing a PC that breaks down is pretty on par to a console that breaks if your a fix it yourself person, but vastly more expensive and annoying if your not.[/quote]
Wrong. Fixing a PC is a lot simpler due to how easy it is to get into the case because it's BUILT for you to do so. If you are fixing it yourself, it's easier for the user to get into the OS (because the gaming OS is not built to be manipulated), easier for you to get inside the hardware (because the console's case is not built to be opened), and easier for you to figure out what's wrong because the whole thing is built by you (if it IS built by you). Even if you buy a pre-built one, it is still easier to open and access than the console's. In the scenario where you are fixing it yourself, PC's are easier to fix. No if's, and's, or but's.
Consoles do not allow you to open them completely without violating your warranty and do not allow you any capacity to manipulate the underlying software or even regress firmware updates.
If BUYING repair services, the consoles may be cheaper, depending on what is wrong with the computer. But the computer is capable of so much more than the console, it becomes a cost-benefit scenario where you pay $100 to get your gaming console back or you pay $200 to get your gaming computer that also houses your music, your videos, your photos, can allow you to use MS Office, produce videos, edit photos, stream movies (to your consoles ironically enough), etc.
[quote name='MSI Magus']
As we seem to agree on at this point though I think this really comes down to your needs and your means. If you can build, fix and maintain your own PC then I think it works out quite a bit better for you, especially given the fact that PC developers are not pushing technology these last 5-6 years like they had the last decade or two. If you can not, well chances are you are not nearly as big of a PC fan.[/QUOTE]
PC developers have all become indie developers. All the hardcore PC developers of yesteryear, sans Valve and Blizzard, have become console developers first, PC porters, and the lack of hardware change in the consoles has led to the games not pushing PC hardware hard at all. We're in year 5 of the 360. It only took a year for the gaming PC to match 360 visuals at higher resolutions and everything since then has been gravy.
The longer that the console makers keep this generation going, the better the PC value proposition will become. It does not take much on the PC side to match the specialized, cut-down version of the Geforce 7900 in the PS3 or the very specialized prototype of the Radeon 2600 in the 360. To say nothing of the Gamecube-level hardware of the Wii.
TheLongshot
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[quote name='Megazell']I hear you. Your point was still valid, though.
I stop the traditional PC gaming format myself years ago. I have 2 kids and they rock a host of PC games via game pads and projectors from the couch or bed.
When a console title comes out that many ppl gawk at I usually find something like - If not the actual game itself.
There was a Wii blob game that my kids wanted to play after doing some digging found out it was also freeware for the PC - The Blob
The motion mouse is a great tool for that game.[/quote]
For those which I can get a PC version, it is the version that I usually go with. (For example, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc)
But, that isn't always possible, even with equivalents. Also, with a 4 year old who is desperate to play games, letting him on my PC isn't always a positive experience.
He's always been mine.
I stop the traditional PC gaming format myself years ago. I have 2 kids and they rock a host of PC games via game pads and projectors from the couch or bed.
When a console title comes out that many ppl gawk at I usually find something like - If not the actual game itself.
There was a Wii blob game that my kids wanted to play after doing some digging found out it was also freeware for the PC - The Blob
The motion mouse is a great tool for that game.[/quote]
For those which I can get a PC version, it is the version that I usually go with. (For example, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc)
But, that isn't always possible, even with equivalents. Also, with a 4 year old who is desperate to play games, letting him on my PC isn't always a positive experience.
Longshot is still my favorite character even though I don't read Marvel anymore
He's always been mine.
[quote name='Megazell']First off - You first half is highly inappropriate, for one that is trying to have a civil discourse.
You using Tea Party logic and trying to demonize me for not agreeing with you or like the others.
I personally, don't see anything positive with the current state of the console market. Period. I mean it is going great for the developers and publishing houses but I don't see it being good for the gamers since the negative outweighs the good.
What have I stated that is inaccurate? What exactly did I state that is way out there?[/QUOTE]
As both of you stated, let's keep this a civil discussion. It was inappropriate to comment directly on Megazell's attitude this way, and if you two feel like you need to comment on each other instead of the discussion, please take it to PMs instead. As for his attitude, there are a couple of pro-console people who commented as well, they just haven't had as much to say as the PC people. Let's just leave this at the fact that there are people who prefer consoles regardless, and people who prefer PCs regardless.
There is one very recent and strong positive for the console market that I want to acknowledge. Due to the tight control of their hardware compared to PC's open architecture, they find it much easier to commercialize new ideas such as the latest crop of motion controllers. Yes, PCs have had motion controls, camera controls, voice controls, etc for a long time. However, due to the fragmented nature of PC hardware, those solutions have been plagued with compatibility issues of such magnitude and for so long that they still fail to be considered "mainstream". I love the fact that there are now 2 devices for reading brain waves and translating them into commands, but bemoan the fact that if they remain on the PC there is a low chance that they will become mainstream, which means they will stay expensive, etc. However, take a look at the Microsoft Kinect. With just a modicum of advertising compared to the total amount spent on similar products from different companies on the PC coupled with the ease of use on their platform due to the general lack of compatibility issues has brought the Kinect and the entire control structure into the mainstream almost instantly! Is it perfect? No. Is it better than the PC equivalents in terms of features and total capability? No. However, you cannot argue with 2.5 million units sold in 25 days, or the fact that there was such a desire that both a bounty for and a functional open source driver to bring the Kinect to the PC occurred so quickly after release.
Anything that brings exciting technology like this to mainstream is impressive in my book. Regardless of whether the manufacturer continues support for the device (glares at Nintendo's many disappointments), the enthusiasm of broadening the reach of the Kinect almost guarantees it's longevity both in and outside of gaming.
You using Tea Party logic and trying to demonize me for not agreeing with you or like the others.
I personally, don't see anything positive with the current state of the console market. Period. I mean it is going great for the developers and publishing houses but I don't see it being good for the gamers since the negative outweighs the good.
What have I stated that is inaccurate? What exactly did I state that is way out there?[/QUOTE]
As both of you stated, let's keep this a civil discussion. It was inappropriate to comment directly on Megazell's attitude this way, and if you two feel like you need to comment on each other instead of the discussion, please take it to PMs instead. As for his attitude, there are a couple of pro-console people who commented as well, they just haven't had as much to say as the PC people. Let's just leave this at the fact that there are people who prefer consoles regardless, and people who prefer PCs regardless.
There is one very recent and strong positive for the console market that I want to acknowledge. Due to the tight control of their hardware compared to PC's open architecture, they find it much easier to commercialize new ideas such as the latest crop of motion controllers. Yes, PCs have had motion controls, camera controls, voice controls, etc for a long time. However, due to the fragmented nature of PC hardware, those solutions have been plagued with compatibility issues of such magnitude and for so long that they still fail to be considered "mainstream". I love the fact that there are now 2 devices for reading brain waves and translating them into commands, but bemoan the fact that if they remain on the PC there is a low chance that they will become mainstream, which means they will stay expensive, etc. However, take a look at the Microsoft Kinect. With just a modicum of advertising compared to the total amount spent on similar products from different companies on the PC coupled with the ease of use on their platform due to the general lack of compatibility issues has brought the Kinect and the entire control structure into the mainstream almost instantly! Is it perfect? No. Is it better than the PC equivalents in terms of features and total capability? No. However, you cannot argue with 2.5 million units sold in 25 days, or the fact that there was such a desire that both a bounty for and a functional open source driver to bring the Kinect to the PC occurred so quickly after release.
Anything that brings exciting technology like this to mainstream is impressive in my book. Regardless of whether the manufacturer continues support for the device (glares at Nintendo's many disappointments), the enthusiasm of broadening the reach of the Kinect almost guarantees it's longevity both in and outside of gaming.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='TheLongshot']He's always been mine.[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid to read anything with Marvel on since they I heard they retcon the shit out of him, his wife and son.
I have his original 6 issues signed by Arthur Adams hanging over my main PC in my war room!
Back to the debate
I'm afraid to read anything with Marvel on since they I heard they retcon the shit out of him, his wife and son.
I have his original 6 issues signed by Arthur Adams hanging over my main PC in my war room!
Back to the debate
TheLongshot
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='HisDivineShadow']Firmware updates are constantly causing failures on consoles, including Wii, 360, and PS3. This happens with every firmware update. Sometimes, it is more widespread than others, but especially around the BIG updates they do during the Fall (The Fail?).[/QUOTE]
One point in PC's favor: you don't have to upgrade software unless you absolutely have to. With the newer consoles, you are forced to.
I'd add Bioware and Bethesda to that list of companies. Their PC titles are not simple ports, but versions onto themselves. Tho, I think the existence of XBox 360 has made it easier to do, as opposed to it not existing and having incompatible consoles like PS3 and Wii.
But, I do like the fact that the weeding out of developers has opened things more up for independant developers. It is nice to get back to simpler gameplay without huge hardware requirements.
[quote name='Megazel']I'm afraid to read anything with Marvel on since they I heard they retcon the shit out of him, his wife and son.[/quote]
Last time I read something with Longshot, he and Dazzler were fighting Mojo II with an uneasy alliance with Major Domo.
Longshot has never been handled well by Marvel. I mean,
never had the impact that it should have had. Too much happened outside of the pages of comic books.
I'm officially jealous. Art Adams is my favorite artist and when I run across something that he's done, I pick it up. (I think the last thing I picked up was Monkeyman & O'Brien.)
But, his work on New Mutants SE #1/X-Men Annual #9 is part of what made those issues special for me.
Agreed.
One point in PC's favor: you don't have to upgrade software unless you absolutely have to. With the newer consoles, you are forced to.
I'd add Bioware and Bethesda to that list of companies. Their PC titles are not simple ports, but versions onto themselves. Tho, I think the existence of XBox 360 has made it easier to do, as opposed to it not existing and having incompatible consoles like PS3 and Wii.
But, I do like the fact that the weeding out of developers has opened things more up for independant developers. It is nice to get back to simpler gameplay without huge hardware requirements.
[quote name='Megazel']I'm afraid to read anything with Marvel on since they I heard they retcon the shit out of him, his wife and son.[/quote]
Last time I read something with Longshot, he and Dazzler were fighting Mojo II with an uneasy alliance with Major Domo.
Longshot has never been handled well by Marvel. I mean,
the revelation that Richochet Rita eventually became Spiral after Mojo blew her mind
I'm officially jealous. Art Adams is my favorite artist and when I run across something that he's done, I pick it up. (I think the last thing I picked up was Monkeyman & O'Brien.)
But, his work on New Mutants SE #1/X-Men Annual #9 is part of what made those issues special for me.
Back to the debate
Agreed.
Talk about timing, we start this debate and news about version compatibility issue on the same XBox title comes out. http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/11/24/microsoft-selling-games-on-demand-with-compatibility-issues/
To keep this in perspective, all this news really does is highlight the fact that the "benefits" of versioning compatibility and fewer glitches really depends more on the developers than the platform itself. Todays developer market trends towards sloppy code in favor of shorter deadlines, and that applies to all platforms (with the only difference really being the nature of the glitches). In this specific instance, the glitch seems to be a difference in title enumeration. How quickly would that have been caught in a traditional beta test as is common on PC?
To keep this in perspective, all this news really does is highlight the fact that the "benefits" of versioning compatibility and fewer glitches really depends more on the developers than the platform itself. Todays developer market trends towards sloppy code in favor of shorter deadlines, and that applies to all platforms (with the only difference really being the nature of the glitches). In this specific instance, the glitch seems to be a difference in title enumeration. How quickly would that have been caught in a traditional beta test as is common on PC?
BWS1982
CAGiversary!
I prefer my PC but love some of the experiences I get on my PS3 (and to a lesser extent, my 360 and Wii)...
I don't understand a lot of console-only gamers points of view sometimes, even though I spend a ton of time on consoles and first started gaming on an NES over 20 years ago. I sometimes think there's far too much distortion, intentional or otherwise. After loving CoD 1 and 2 on the PC years ago, I finally tried a recent CoD game, CoD 4... (I hate Activision/Bobby Kotick, have avoided playing/purchasing the last few with the crowds) on my PC here Sunday and when I lamented some of the game's traits (CoD 4 has the Numpad locked for bindings, WTF is that?!), I actually had a 360 fan/friend tell me "Why oh why did you play the game on PC? CoD games weren't meant to be played on the PC"....Yeah, just...wow...
That is symbolic of the day and age we live in with gaming. We have this new batch of consumers who are new to gaming who don't even realize certain lineages or exposures (or the history of the CoD franchise). I think people just haven't had the right exposure to PC gaming when they're so against it. They're basically, for want of a better perspective, scarred. For example, PC gaming isn't thousands of dollars (I couldn't afford it if it was) every year or whatever the cliche is. It's not "you gotta upgrade every 6-12 months"...That's now a myth, and was exaggerated in the time when it wasn't a myth.
Another one is the exclusives "count"...Consoles have many exclusives, but the console-only players who spout that PC's have few left don't know the library. Just look at Steam or the RTS and FPS genre's, the indie/Euro-RPG genre's: There are a myriad of exclusives, the problem is they're from lesser known dev's/publishers (check Steam and see the count)...I guess some people think because a PC game doesn't have a presence on Burger King bags it doesn't exist. Games like Company of Heroes, Defense Grid, Dawn of War, Witcher, Titan Quest, Killing Floor, Empire: Total War, Death to Spies, Penumbra, Stalker, A Farewell To Dragons...you don't have console ports. The list goes on, it's just not commercially rampant, so I guess they're just chalked up to "no name" games, despite their fun.
I prefer my consoles for their experiences and features and exclusives (especially PS3 exclusives), but my PC takes the prize for overall experience and superiority in performance, customization, cost of software (no licensing costs for retail releases, and, STEAM!!) and control. I can EASILY hook up a "DVI to HDMI" cord to my 42" plasma for gaming if I want, and I also put MKV's on that way for my fiancee and I to watch from the couch. It takes seconds, not minutes and Google searches. We keep it coiled up behind the PC monitor and plug it into the TV and change the displays. The end.
Mouse and keyboard, to me, is superior for 80% of gaming, although I know that's not everyone's opinion. I own in Resistance multiplayer, can get headshots left and right in Uncharted, but a mouse has infinite precision. Some say "well yeah but just for FPS and RTS gaming"...No, Max Payne and the likes, 3rd person? Those still aim better with a mouse for me. It's rare that a controller is optimal but there are plenty of games in that category too. What I don't get that MSI said was his view on PC controllers. PC controllers have been around since nearly the dawn of PC gaming, to match console counterparts. I saw in the early 90's, as a kid, controllers for PC games in the store and in friends' homes. 90's games have entire tabs in the menus devoted for "controller options"...just ask any veteran PC gamer, they'll tell you the longevity of PC controller history and availability. Nearly anything I play has a "controller detection" or controller "check-box". I don't get this "yeah but few will take them" stance...
Now, against PC gaming, I HATE the compatibility issues. I built my i7 rig by hand myself in spring 2009, so I know my stuff well enough, but I hate Googling every couple games to find hotfixes for older games because I get the response "Yeah, it does that, you have to find this and that hotfix/patch"...or even "just find a PC with Windows 98, problem solved"...I hate that aspect about PC gaming, it's my only real gripe with it. Its openness is also its downfall. I wanted to install Serious Sam 1st/2nd Encounters from 2001/2002 just for the SED1 (the HD ones only recently came out with a Beta editor), and---can't do it on anything 64-bit, even Croteam admitted this to me personally on the STEAM forums. 64 bit OS's are so common in gaming now, it's stupid, and they re-released those 2001/2002 editions on STEAM just months ago, advertising about the editors in them! I wanted to play No One Lives Forever 2 without issue-- can't do that starting with Vista and 7 now, it sporadically crashes with MFC errors every few minutes. PC's are so open they are also laden with a minefield of compatibility mashups.
The last point I mention (because I see both sides) are the graphics. Yes, parity has been introduced some, but there's still a line in PC gaming that consoles can't arrive at yet, because of the theoretical power (that not all dev's take advantage of, but it's there)...I'm sorry, but you don't have games on the consoles looking like these yet:
http://gameronline.freeblog.hu/files/2010/07/crysis2fn2.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4lrm97dBq...DQ9XCCY/s1600/the-witcher-2-screenshot-39.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1134/crysis42.jpg
I don't understand a lot of console-only gamers points of view sometimes, even though I spend a ton of time on consoles and first started gaming on an NES over 20 years ago. I sometimes think there's far too much distortion, intentional or otherwise. After loving CoD 1 and 2 on the PC years ago, I finally tried a recent CoD game, CoD 4... (I hate Activision/Bobby Kotick, have avoided playing/purchasing the last few with the crowds) on my PC here Sunday and when I lamented some of the game's traits (CoD 4 has the Numpad locked for bindings, WTF is that?!), I actually had a 360 fan/friend tell me "Why oh why did you play the game on PC? CoD games weren't meant to be played on the PC"....Yeah, just...wow...
That is symbolic of the day and age we live in with gaming. We have this new batch of consumers who are new to gaming who don't even realize certain lineages or exposures (or the history of the CoD franchise). I think people just haven't had the right exposure to PC gaming when they're so against it. They're basically, for want of a better perspective, scarred. For example, PC gaming isn't thousands of dollars (I couldn't afford it if it was) every year or whatever the cliche is. It's not "you gotta upgrade every 6-12 months"...That's now a myth, and was exaggerated in the time when it wasn't a myth.
Another one is the exclusives "count"...Consoles have many exclusives, but the console-only players who spout that PC's have few left don't know the library. Just look at Steam or the RTS and FPS genre's, the indie/Euro-RPG genre's: There are a myriad of exclusives, the problem is they're from lesser known dev's/publishers (check Steam and see the count)...I guess some people think because a PC game doesn't have a presence on Burger King bags it doesn't exist. Games like Company of Heroes, Defense Grid, Dawn of War, Witcher, Titan Quest, Killing Floor, Empire: Total War, Death to Spies, Penumbra, Stalker, A Farewell To Dragons...you don't have console ports. The list goes on, it's just not commercially rampant, so I guess they're just chalked up to "no name" games, despite their fun.
I prefer my consoles for their experiences and features and exclusives (especially PS3 exclusives), but my PC takes the prize for overall experience and superiority in performance, customization, cost of software (no licensing costs for retail releases, and, STEAM!!) and control. I can EASILY hook up a "DVI to HDMI" cord to my 42" plasma for gaming if I want, and I also put MKV's on that way for my fiancee and I to watch from the couch. It takes seconds, not minutes and Google searches. We keep it coiled up behind the PC monitor and plug it into the TV and change the displays. The end.
Mouse and keyboard, to me, is superior for 80% of gaming, although I know that's not everyone's opinion. I own in Resistance multiplayer, can get headshots left and right in Uncharted, but a mouse has infinite precision. Some say "well yeah but just for FPS and RTS gaming"...No, Max Payne and the likes, 3rd person? Those still aim better with a mouse for me. It's rare that a controller is optimal but there are plenty of games in that category too. What I don't get that MSI said was his view on PC controllers. PC controllers have been around since nearly the dawn of PC gaming, to match console counterparts. I saw in the early 90's, as a kid, controllers for PC games in the store and in friends' homes. 90's games have entire tabs in the menus devoted for "controller options"...just ask any veteran PC gamer, they'll tell you the longevity of PC controller history and availability. Nearly anything I play has a "controller detection" or controller "check-box". I don't get this "yeah but few will take them" stance...
Now, against PC gaming, I HATE the compatibility issues. I built my i7 rig by hand myself in spring 2009, so I know my stuff well enough, but I hate Googling every couple games to find hotfixes for older games because I get the response "Yeah, it does that, you have to find this and that hotfix/patch"...or even "just find a PC with Windows 98, problem solved"...I hate that aspect about PC gaming, it's my only real gripe with it. Its openness is also its downfall. I wanted to install Serious Sam 1st/2nd Encounters from 2001/2002 just for the SED1 (the HD ones only recently came out with a Beta editor), and---can't do it on anything 64-bit, even Croteam admitted this to me personally on the STEAM forums. 64 bit OS's are so common in gaming now, it's stupid, and they re-released those 2001/2002 editions on STEAM just months ago, advertising about the editors in them! I wanted to play No One Lives Forever 2 without issue-- can't do that starting with Vista and 7 now, it sporadically crashes with MFC errors every few minutes. PC's are so open they are also laden with a minefield of compatibility mashups.
The last point I mention (because I see both sides) are the graphics. Yes, parity has been introduced some, but there's still a line in PC gaming that consoles can't arrive at yet, because of the theoretical power (that not all dev's take advantage of, but it's there)...I'm sorry, but you don't have games on the consoles looking like these yet:
http://gameronline.freeblog.hu/files/2010/07/crysis2fn2.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4lrm97dBq...DQ9XCCY/s1600/the-witcher-2-screenshot-39.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1134/crysis42.jpg
Last edited by a moderator:
lordopus99
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='bubo']*waggles hand* The problem is that you need to remember that your personal experience does not reflect on everyone's experience. Off the top of my head, I can think of Wii official update bricking (despite their claims that it only happens to pirates, I've seen it happen twice to brand new units purchased and updated without a single game or homebrew touching it), the PS3 leap year bug, original XBox disc cracking, XBox360 RROD, PS2 lens failures, etc. [/QUOTE]
I can run off a list of issues with a PC too... blown fan, overheating, viruses, compatibility issues with other software, Y2K, etc. They both have issues. In my years since starting gaming, I have repaired my PCs, whether for gaming or not, (not including upgrades) more than I have repaired my consoles.
My console systems haven't had a virus nor have I heard of one. As for the Mac crowd arguement... if you put Windows on Mac, you will get viruses. Macs that keep apple OS (i.e. Leopard, etc) rarely have issues as you would have to download the virus and then knowingly activate the virus. Just stating...
[quote name='HisDivineShadow']NES had problems reading CARTs. Eventually, would lead to complete failure. This was widespread. "Blow on your game!"[/QUOTE]
I guess you never dealt with floppy discs. I had plenty of issues with the floppy drive on my commodore 64 back in the day. It is called old technology; same thing like blowing into NES games.
I have had to replace my computer's power supply a couple of times over the years.
[quote name='MSI Magus']Ermmm I also wanted to point out that putting this in the PC gaming section was a very bad move. Its like posting a PS3 vs 360 topic in the PS3 section...do you not think you are going to get 90% PS3 support? It actually makes me not want to continue this discussion because it means its going to draw PC fanatics vs people like babu who are willing to see/admit both sides. [/QUOTE]
I totally agree. It should either be in "vs Mode" forum or "General Gaming" forum.
I can run off a list of issues with a PC too... blown fan, overheating, viruses, compatibility issues with other software, Y2K, etc. They both have issues. In my years since starting gaming, I have repaired my PCs, whether for gaming or not, (not including upgrades) more than I have repaired my consoles.
My console systems haven't had a virus nor have I heard of one.
As for the Mac crowd arguement... if you put Windows on Mac, you will get viruses. Macs that keep apple OS (i.e. Leopard, etc) rarely have issues as you would have to download the virus and then knowingly activate the virus. Just stating...[quote name='HisDivineShadow']NES had problems reading CARTs. Eventually, would lead to complete failure. This was widespread. "Blow on your game!"[/QUOTE]
I guess you never dealt with floppy discs. I had plenty of issues with the floppy drive on my commodore 64 back in the day. It is called old technology; same thing like blowing into NES games.
I have had to replace my computer's power supply a couple of times over the years.
[quote name='MSI Magus']Ermmm I also wanted to point out that putting this in the PC gaming section was a very bad move. Its like posting a PS3 vs 360 topic in the PS3 section...do you not think you are going to get 90% PS3 support? It actually makes me not want to continue this discussion because it means its going to draw PC fanatics vs people like babu who are willing to see/admit both sides. [/QUOTE]
I totally agree. It should either be in "vs Mode" forum or "General Gaming" forum.
[quote name='lordopus99']I can run off a list of issues with a PC too... blown fan, overheating, viruses, compatibility issues with other software, Y2K, etc. They both have issues. In my years since starting gaming, I have repaired my PCs, whether for gaming or not, (not including upgrades) more than I have repaired my consoles.
My console systems haven't had a virus nor have I heard of one. As for the Mac crowd arguement... if you put Windows on Mac, you will get viruses. Macs that keep apple OS (i.e. Leopard, etc) rarely have issues as you would have to download the virus and then knowingly activate the virus. Just stating...[/QUOTE]
My list was specifically in response to the statement only PCs have those issues, and that it should be a console advantage. I was illustrating that all platforms have these issues, it's just a matter of what form these issues take. As for more common on PC's, that is true but you have to view that fact in the light that there are significantly more PCs out there than there are consoles of any sort.
As for viruses.... Like I said I really don't want to get to into that argument here as it really isn't pertinent. However, off the top of my head I remember the trojan.pspbrick virus (yes, it's off of homebrew, but that's just a matter of vector - it illustrates that consoles are not immune and all it would take is for a virus to find the right vector to get onto an "Official Disc" as has happened to many PC products from big name titles to magazine releases (and before that argument is brought up, the whole point of this is that viruses on consoles may be rare, but that does not equal to consoles being immune)).
As for Mac virii.... Let's see. Off the top of my head I can recall Oompa Loompa which targeted native Mac OS/X executables for infection. I seem to recall a variety of java based worms that could infect Macs that have not specifically disabled Java, as well as the usual slew of macro worms for office document software. Again, I'm not trying to say Macs are prone to viruses or anything like saying that there are fewer viruses on PCs. My point is that obscure/obfuscated code does not equal an immunity to viruses. The only real reason why there are more viruses on PCs than there are on other platforms is simply the market share of PCs globally. It's a lot more effective to write a PC targeting virus than it is to write a console virus. If there ever ended up being more XBox360's in the world than there are PCs for a significant length of time, you'll see a marked shift in virus writing to target XBox360's (XBox360 chosen at random, you can substitute any code executing device with provisions for non-manufacturer supplied code execution).
My console systems haven't had a virus nor have I heard of one.
As for the Mac crowd arguement... if you put Windows on Mac, you will get viruses. Macs that keep apple OS (i.e. Leopard, etc) rarely have issues as you would have to download the virus and then knowingly activate the virus. Just stating...[/QUOTE]My list was specifically in response to the statement only PCs have those issues, and that it should be a console advantage. I was illustrating that all platforms have these issues, it's just a matter of what form these issues take. As for more common on PC's, that is true but you have to view that fact in the light that there are significantly more PCs out there than there are consoles of any sort.
As for viruses.... Like I said I really don't want to get to into that argument here as it really isn't pertinent. However, off the top of my head I remember the trojan.pspbrick virus (yes, it's off of homebrew, but that's just a matter of vector - it illustrates that consoles are not immune and all it would take is for a virus to find the right vector to get onto an "Official Disc" as has happened to many PC products from big name titles to magazine releases (and before that argument is brought up, the whole point of this is that viruses on consoles may be rare, but that does not equal to consoles being immune)).
As for Mac virii.... Let's see. Off the top of my head I can recall Oompa Loompa which targeted native Mac OS/X executables for infection. I seem to recall a variety of java based worms that could infect Macs that have not specifically disabled Java, as well as the usual slew of macro worms for office document software. Again, I'm not trying to say Macs are prone to viruses or anything like saying that there are fewer viruses on PCs. My point is that obscure/obfuscated code does not equal an immunity to viruses. The only real reason why there are more viruses on PCs than there are on other platforms is simply the market share of PCs globally. It's a lot more effective to write a PC targeting virus than it is to write a console virus. If there ever ended up being more XBox360's in the world than there are PCs for a significant length of time, you'll see a marked shift in virus writing to target XBox360's (XBox360 chosen at random, you can substitute any code executing device with provisions for non-manufacturer supplied code execution).
[quote name='lordopus99']I totally agree. It should either be in "vs Mode" forum or "General Gaming" forum.[/QUOTE]
Huh, I didn't even know that there was a vs Mode forum. I placed it here due to the console forums being fragmented, when I looked at General Gaming the title made me think it was related to news discussion, and the person in the original thread that asked us to move out specifically linked the Steam thread here. *shrug* If a mod wants to move us, I don't see any issue with that outside of exposure.
Seriously though, out of the people who are active in this discussion today, how many of you knew that there was a vs Mode forum before today? Megazell and mods, you don't count.
If nothing else, this discussion has been educational for me in the sense that I've had to look at the non-deal forums at CAG that I've never really spent time on before today.
Huh, I didn't even know that there was a vs Mode forum. I placed it here due to the console forums being fragmented, when I looked at General Gaming the title made me think it was related to news discussion, and the person in the original thread that asked us to move out specifically linked the Steam thread here. *shrug* If a mod wants to move us, I don't see any issue with that outside of exposure.
Seriously though, out of the people who are active in this discussion today, how many of you knew that there was a vs Mode forum before today? Megazell and mods, you don't count.
If nothing else, this discussion has been educational for me in the sense that I've had to look at the non-deal forums at CAG that I've never really spent time on before today.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='BWS1982']I sometimes think there's far too much distortion, intentional or otherwise.[/QUOTE]
BTW - You made a lot of excellent points.
I believe it is intentional. Whether the initial start of it was or was not is moot at this point because as it stands companies, developers and game reviewers use the distortion to sell and/or gain attention.
I remember when the first wave of bugs and issues came out with the recent gen of consoles...the word online and in the streets was that it was a user issue. Which to me is ill-moral if not criminal.
ONLY in the console gaming industry would use nonsense be tolerated....Which says a lot to me about it's LOYAL CONSOLE BASE (aka the console specific fanboys/girls).
[quote name='BWS1982']That is symbolic of the day and age we live in with gaming. We have this new batch of consumers who are new to gaming who don't even realize certain lineages or exposures (or the history of the CoD franchise). I think people just haven't had the right exposure to PC gaming when they're so against it. They're basically, for want of a better perspective, scarred. For example, PC gaming isn't thousands of dollars (I couldn't afford it if it was) every year or whatever the cliche is. It's not "you gotta upgrade every 6-12 months"...That's now a myth, and was exaggerated in the time when it wasn't a myth.[/QUOTE]
Preach! From time to time I meet new people through events and such and when and if I invite to my home and they see my layout they think...Damn you must have spent X (X being ridiculous amount). When I break it down to how this is all under $400 or less....they either don't believe (despite the receipts) or are in a state of shock that usually follows with a bombardment of emails of them trying to hunt down the same deals.
[quote name='BWS1982']Another one is the exclusives "count"...Consoles have many exclusives, but the console-only players who spout that PC's have few left don't know the library. Just look at Steam or the RTS and FPS genre's, the indie/Euro-RPG genre's: There are a myriad of exclusives, the problem is they're from lesser known dev's/publishers (check Steam and see the count)...I guess some people think because a PC game doesn't have a presence on Burger King bags it doesn't exist. Games like Company of Heroes, Defense Grid, Dawn of War, Witcher, Titan Quest, Killing Floor, Empire: Total War, Death to Spies, Penumbra, Stalker, A Farewell To Dragons...you don't have console ports. The list goes on, it's just not commercially rampant, so I guess they're just chalked up to "no name" games, despite their fun.[/QUOTE]
Preach.
I believe this is to our (PC Gamers) benefit though. Let me explain...From my interaction with console gamers - mostly level headed people - and from my reading and viewing of Youtube videos the console market is saturated with casual gamers...which down the line leads to a younger audience which leads to playing on line with out of control minors (or even idiot adults)...cussing, racial slurs and over all nonsense during your online experience...while the PC is not free of this (though we do have tools to stop it from IP Bans, Vote Kick, TraceIP and other goodies) it's horrendous on the consoles (and in some games uncontrollable)...which is to be expected since everything is so popular and mainstream.
The other thing is that lack of commercials keeps out games low priced (for those of us that buy games). Even the shittiest game on consoles gets a commercial and automatically puts that game at a high price range when released.
Everything else you wrote is on point and I see no problem with your choice as you stated it. I'm just tired of so many consolers talking about their choices as if they have ZERO cons. So many of them saying this and that is AWESOME when the developers of them games themselves say the game has bugs and we are working on them right now....Mean while this same consoler...says it's bug free.
BTW - You made a lot of excellent points.
I believe it is intentional. Whether the initial start of it was or was not is moot at this point because as it stands companies, developers and game reviewers use the distortion to sell and/or gain attention.
I remember when the first wave of bugs and issues came out with the recent gen of consoles...the word online and in the streets was that it was a user issue. Which to me is ill-moral if not criminal.
ONLY in the console gaming industry would use nonsense be tolerated....Which says a lot to me about it's LOYAL CONSOLE BASE (aka the console specific fanboys/girls).
[quote name='BWS1982']That is symbolic of the day and age we live in with gaming. We have this new batch of consumers who are new to gaming who don't even realize certain lineages or exposures (or the history of the CoD franchise). I think people just haven't had the right exposure to PC gaming when they're so against it. They're basically, for want of a better perspective, scarred. For example, PC gaming isn't thousands of dollars (I couldn't afford it if it was) every year or whatever the cliche is. It's not "you gotta upgrade every 6-12 months"...That's now a myth, and was exaggerated in the time when it wasn't a myth.[/QUOTE]
Preach! From time to time I meet new people through events and such and when and if I invite to my home and they see my layout they think...Damn you must have spent X (X being ridiculous amount). When I break it down to how this is all under $400 or less....they either don't believe (despite the receipts) or are in a state of shock that usually follows with a bombardment of emails of them trying to hunt down the same deals.
[quote name='BWS1982']Another one is the exclusives "count"...Consoles have many exclusives, but the console-only players who spout that PC's have few left don't know the library. Just look at Steam or the RTS and FPS genre's, the indie/Euro-RPG genre's: There are a myriad of exclusives, the problem is they're from lesser known dev's/publishers (check Steam and see the count)...I guess some people think because a PC game doesn't have a presence on Burger King bags it doesn't exist. Games like Company of Heroes, Defense Grid, Dawn of War, Witcher, Titan Quest, Killing Floor, Empire: Total War, Death to Spies, Penumbra, Stalker, A Farewell To Dragons...you don't have console ports. The list goes on, it's just not commercially rampant, so I guess they're just chalked up to "no name" games, despite their fun.[/QUOTE]
Preach.
I believe this is to our (PC Gamers) benefit though. Let me explain...From my interaction with console gamers - mostly level headed people - and from my reading and viewing of Youtube videos the console market is saturated with casual gamers...which down the line leads to a younger audience which leads to playing on line with out of control minors (or even idiot adults)...cussing, racial slurs and over all nonsense during your online experience...while the PC is not free of this (though we do have tools to stop it from IP Bans, Vote Kick, TraceIP and other goodies) it's horrendous on the consoles (and in some games uncontrollable)...which is to be expected since everything is so popular and mainstream.
The other thing is that lack of commercials keeps out games low priced (for those of us that buy games). Even the shittiest game on consoles gets a commercial and automatically puts that game at a high price range when released.
Everything else you wrote is on point and I see no problem with your choice as you stated it. I'm just tired of so many consolers talking about their choices as if they have ZERO cons. So many of them saying this and that is AWESOME when the developers of them games themselves say the game has bugs and we are working on them right now....Mean while this same consoler...says it's bug free.
M
Megazell
Guest
[quote name='bubo']Megazell and mods, you don't count. [/QUOTE]
Shit....All I know is that we have PC section and we have an award section...The end.
[/QUOTE]Shit....All I know is that we have PC section and we have an award section...The end.
bk187
CAGiversary!
In the end, I think that what makes or breaks a platform is the games and what your friends have.
Having been a diehard FPS/RTS computer gamer since I started playing games (Warcraft I, Doom, Duke Nukem, Starcraft I, etc) and not owning a console until I was given a PS2 in 2008 I am definitely biased towards PC gaming. I think that the mouse/keyboard combo is a godsend for those games and really don't understand how anybody could think a controller is superior for an FPS, but that is besides the point.
What you choose is a personal choice. If you want to play free/supercheap games/indie titles/FPS/RTS, get a PC. If you want to play God of War/Halo/Gears of War/Mario/Zelda/Gran Turismo/etc, then get the respective console for that. Does each platform have it's strengths and weaknesses? Sure it does, but in the end I think the final line is drawn by the games and one's friends.
The real hinge for me is what my friends use to play online. I want to play CS/Diablo/CoD/WC/SC/L4D/etc with my friends and they all play on the PC so it is a no brainer. If I had a ton of friends who played on a console then I probably would have bought a PS3 or 360 years ago, but I didn't because my friends are PC gamers.
This really is just a giant pissing contest. Any given platform could be the best construction ever made with huge strengths and no weaknesses but it would be moot if the games did not exist for it and I did not have friends who played on it.
Having been a diehard FPS/RTS computer gamer since I started playing games (Warcraft I, Doom, Duke Nukem, Starcraft I, etc) and not owning a console until I was given a PS2 in 2008 I am definitely biased towards PC gaming. I think that the mouse/keyboard combo is a godsend for those games and really don't understand how anybody could think a controller is superior for an FPS, but that is besides the point.
What you choose is a personal choice. If you want to play free/supercheap games/indie titles/FPS/RTS, get a PC. If you want to play God of War/Halo/Gears of War/Mario/Zelda/Gran Turismo/etc, then get the respective console for that. Does each platform have it's strengths and weaknesses? Sure it does, but in the end I think the final line is drawn by the games and one's friends.
The real hinge for me is what my friends use to play online. I want to play CS/Diablo/CoD/WC/SC/L4D/etc with my friends and they all play on the PC so it is a no brainer. If I had a ton of friends who played on a console then I probably would have bought a PS3 or 360 years ago, but I didn't because my friends are PC gamers.
This really is just a giant pissing contest. Any given platform could be the best construction ever made with huge strengths and no weaknesses but it would be moot if the games did not exist for it and I did not have friends who played on it.
[quote name='bk187']This really is just a giant pissing contest. Any given platform could be the best construction ever made with huge strengths and no weaknesses but it would be moot if the games did not exist for it and I did not have friends who played on it.[/QUOTE]
Well, I feel like I've been put in my place. Still, I'm quoting this as TRUTH!
Well, I feel like I've been put in my place. Still, I'm quoting this as TRUTH!
bread's done