Cutting in line

KrAzY3

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I haven't been posting here much lately. Personal shit going on for the most part.

Some of that has to do with my wife getting a letter from Homeland Security on March, 18. It informed my wife that her I-751 petition was denied because we did not make a January 23, 2006 interview date. The problem is we were never notified. We had a receipt number which should show our status, but it was never updated and we later found out they never do that in Atlanta. We provided email addresses and phone numbers but they apparently decided that a letter that costs all of 39 cents was a adequate way of informing us (if it was ever sent, and mind you we paid 200 bucks to file our I-751 so it isn't like a few extra cents for delivery confirmation would bankrupt them). So, my wife was made a illegal immigrant retroactive to her filing date. We filed a appeal (costs $385 bucks) and hope that will resolve the matter soon.

I will spare further details but I am intimately aware of how legal immigration works. I have been through customs many times, I have been to embassies and USCIS offices. I've seen and filled out more forms that any human being should have to. The mere idea that illegal immigrants, who never tried to follow our laws and rules could hypothetically "cut in line" on my wife infuriates me.

Immigration can be a great thing. In the case of my wife, she is a high school graduate with a secondary education. She is hard working, scored native proficiency on her TOEFL, has made every effort to be a law abiding citizen (immigration laws included) and to integrate into our culture. This, to me is ideal immigration. She can't even apply for any public assistance for ten years, and I applaud that. We do not want people cutting in line, taking benefits they never paid for. My wife adds to the diversity of the country, helps insure that we as a nation do not become stagnant. Immigration is what made this nation what it is, and we can not forget that. A big part of the problem is that they made legal immigration so difficult. For instance with my wife, she has been lumped in with illegal immigrants even though she did everything she was supposed to.

Now, the case with "real" illegal immigrants (people that crossed into this country illegally) is a whole other story. It is impossible to characterize them as law abiding, because they broke the law to get here. Unfortunately many of these people are poorly educated, have many children (I worked with one man who didn't speak a word of English, couldn't work any position beyond the easiest one and had 9 children he stole food for every night), do not speak English and while they might very well be hard working they are destined to the lower class. In truth, I blame supporters of Mexican (and other Spanish speaking countries) illegal immigrants for part of the problem. It is acceptable to look the other way, when you have a illegal Mexican working for you. Hell, we should have the Democratic Presidential candidates debate in Spanish so they can understand us. We should have the ballots in Spanish so they can vote (if they find a loophole that lets them get citizenship). Hell, everyone knows that if you live in certain parts of the country you need to speak Spanish.

We left our back door open. Germans, Italians, French, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, etc... they have to take the front door. My wife took the front door. Illegal immigrants, ignore proper border crossings (when they use them, they go in overwhelming numbers and just run past border guards). But, the fault is ours as well. We've created a double standard in which immigrants from non-Spanish speaking nations are held to much higher standards. They are expected to integrate, they are expected to fill out all the paperwork and they have to go through customs. Yet, we look the other way while hordes pour in the back door.

We are not just importing lower class people, we are creating them. By allowing them to be work here illegally, by making everything we can into Spanish, by willingly taking the jobless from Mexico we are creating a new segregated lower class. A class that no longer needs to integrate. I worked with a Pakistani, a Indian, a Portuguese (all immigrants) and several Mexicans. The latter three spoke English and were here legally. Most of the Mexicans were not here legally. The Pakistani and Indian left for better jobs. The Portuguese person was a manager and the Mexicans? Almost all couldn't even speak English, I never saw one move up in position within the job much less leave for a better one. In fact, I feel they also devalued their fellow legal Mexican immigrants because people had certain expectations from Mexican workers.

These are all problems, but the biggest moral problem I see is that of cutting in line. My wife followed all the rules, obeyed the laws and in truth she has been punished for it. Her life has not been made easier because she obeyed the laws, in fact it has been made more difficult. On the other hand, we talk of amnesty for illegal immigrants. We talk of rewarding people who disobeyed our laws, which in turn punishes those who did obey them. Also, there is the more practical matter. American citizens who were born here, have paid into the social programs most of their lives. As it stands now many illegal immigrants are searching for loop hopes (such as having a child within the United States) that can allow them to "cut in line". If we provide amnesty, I can assure you it will not be via the rigors my wife went through. Do you know of sponsors for 10 million people? So, they will be privy immediately to public funds and the like. If this is not the case, amnesty has no way of working because the whole reason they chose the back door was because it was easier.

Now, I know I've written a lot. I know many of you might disagree and I know people like AM23 are likely to pick a single sentence out of this pile of rhetoric to argue with. But, what is my point?

Well, of course legal immigration needs to be fixed. It needs to be easier and the process needs to be less blind. Why not provide tests like the TOEFL? Why not give standardized tests or require a certain level of education? My wife already had to get sponsorship papers (so that if she was in need of aid the sponsor rather than the government would provide it), she already had to pass medical tests and pay many fees and file many forms. Why not include a few more tests and make the rest of the process less blind? Why is she being hassled after she started her life here in America? Why not move on to people that are breaking the immigration laws. Or for that matter why is marriage one of the few ways to legally immigrate? If you have a well educated, intelligent person that speaks English and wants to live in America (and is willing to give up all claims to public assistance for a decade) then what is the problem? We left our back door open, but our front door is certainly well guarded and it isn't fair to the millions of hard working intelligent people on other continents that would love to contribute to America. I'm not sure many of you know this, but we give tens of thousands of green cards out each year in a lottery. We give them out at football games. AT RANDOM! Why? The process has been made intentionally blind and there is no logic in that.

Secondly, some sort of real security needs to be in place. While a wall might seem foreboding, that is the point. Come in the front door, close the back door. That is the only logical resolution. Of course, one has to keep companies and the like from rewarding illegal activity as well. Hell, I'm not even against guest worker programs but! We have to plug the holes first, a guest worker program without added border security will only make things more of a mess. Not to mention the fact that until we have true border security we'll always have a increased threat of people that wish us harm sneaking into the country.

Third? Well, if you've made it easier to immigrate legally and you've made it harder to get in illegally the ten million number we keep hearing will go down. How do you deal with the rest? Well, you go after companies hiring illegal immigrants. You restrict funding to government run programs that are providing services to illegal immigrants (on the government dime of course). You encourage enforcement of existing laws. By taking away the incentive to come here illegally, it would only be logical that illegal immigrants either make a greater effort to come in the front door or leave and return to Mexico. In short, the problem would then sort itself out for the most part.
 
Excellent post, I must applaud you.

Yes, illegal immigration is a problem that will overwhelm our society. Hospital costs, law enforcement, prisons, etc. will all be overburdened. Border security needs to be fixed NOW, but unfortunately, our president doesn't think so.

The "front door" that you speak of not only applies to people but to companies trying to do business as well. It has gotten much, much, much harder for defense companies to do business with foreign countries, let alone granting secret clearances for people with relatives to foreign countries. Even companies that employ people with dual citizenships has become a major headache in the last few years. The system is, indeed, broken.
 
As you said, the majority of illegal immigrants are hispanic. Any actions to fix illegal immigration are labeled as racist attacks against hispanics. Since America has a strong hispanic population, most lawmakers are unwilling to push for tighter borders due to the risk of alienating legal hispanic voters.

In other words, no one wants to be the 'badguy' and actually uphold the laws.

This reminds me of another thread we had not to long ago where there was legislation proposed in California that would allow illegal immigrants a special class of license. Their reasoning? "Well, they're going to be here illegally anyways, so we might as well teach them to drive."
I can't find it because I'm lazy, but I'm sure someone else remembers it.
 
Um see the thing is when a wealthy country is NEIGHBORS with a poor country, residents from the poor country will always flee to the rich country. If I was living in the poor country I could give a rats ass about getting in legally I want to get in no matter what especially with the jobs available. You can't sit there and tell me you wouldn't do the same if you had economic hardship and you knew you could better your situation if you migrated upward. Anyhow what I'm trying to say in the end is stop demonizing these people, they're hard working and not all of them come to fuck, have children and take advantage of the system.
 
If thats the case, they're more than welcome to come... AS LONG AS THEY DO IT LEGALLY. Stop demonizing American citizans for wanting border jumpers to follow the damn laws.

[quote name='apokalipze2']Anyhow what I'm trying to say in the end is stop demonizing these people, they're hard working and not all of them come to fuck, have children and take advantage of the system.[/quote]
 
Care to explain to me how they would go about doing it that way? See it's not as easy as you make it seem. As far as demonizing americans give me a break. I already said its illegal and I agree the u.s should protect its borders
 
[quote name='apokalipze2']Anyhow what I'm trying to say in the end is stop demonizing these people, they're hard working and not all of them come to fuck, have children and take advantage of the system.[/QUOTE]

I want to make legal immigration easier and more reasonable. We can not just let everyone with hardship into the country though, in large part because we have public schools, social security, welfare and so on. Because by nature these people are lower class they are prime candidates for these social programs, without having paid into them at all.

My wife is a immigrant, in Atlanta my best friend was Columbian. I worked with people from many countries as I said and I've lived outside of America for over a year. I'm not blind to diversity and I am not blind to hardship. I've been to Mexico, I know things are difficult there.

We can not just let hordes of illegal immigrants from Mexico continue to pour in though, bottom line. Nor can we reward the ones who broke our laws. Let us be clear, the amnesty and so on we keep hearing about says they won't even have to leave the country and enter legally (front door as I put it). They'll just get to cut in line on people like my wife. For whom is that fair? Why is it that being from Mexico somehow makes you more entitled to live in America than anyone else (does anyone here think amnesty would apply to people from Middle Eastern country or the like?).

It isn't a fair system for anyone right now and things have to be fixed.

[quote name='apokalipze2']Care to explain to me how they would go about doing it that way? See it's not as easy as you make it seem. As far as demonizing americans give me a break. I already said its illegal and I agree the u.s should protect its borders[/QUOTE]

Read my post, more specifically the last few paragraphs.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Wait, your wife, once your wife, is no longer an illegal alien.

I'm having having trouble gathering where your issues are arising from.[/QUOTE]

My wife, through human error has been made a illegal alien. She up until that point and when/if the mistake has been corrected will be a legal alien.

As I stated, pretty clearly she has followed all the rules, paid the fees and obeyed the laws. The problem is that legal immigration is so difficult and blind. As I also alluded to. If you want a example, to try and fix this problem we were told to set up a appointment in Atlanta (by a immigration official). So, we rushed off to Atlanta. We were then told no, they couldn't help us. We had to mail a form that costs $385... to ATLANTA. You know what they'll do with it once they get it? Mail it to Washginton DC. But, we can't mail it to Washington because that would "slow it down". Legal immigration is a bullshit process and it doesn't need to be. It could be more fair and more reasonable. As it things go now, they try to scare off people like my wife while the back door is left open to illegal Mexican immigrants.

I have two major "issues" when it comes to this subject:

Becoming a legal immigrant is far too difficult. The fees, forms and legal bs involved is astounding. The most compelling argument a illegal immigrant can make to being here illegally is that it is nearly impossible to come here legally. As I said, the process should be made less blind and more practical.

Secondly, I find it insulting to the highest degree that my wife has been forced to go through so much. I find is degraded to be stuck in a system that clearly doesn't work properly and I find it infuriating to see that people are entering our countries illegally, not even attempting to follow the rules and that these people could hypothetically walk right past my wife and get amnesty or some sort of bullshit like pay a fine and jump in line. It is insulting to everyone that has gone through the rigors of trying to follow the rules.

Sorry if I didn't answer you properly, what you said didn't seem like much of a complete thought.
 
I don't see how you could argue for legislation to ramp up testing for immigrants. I know that the test for citizenship--which involves knowledge of U.S. history, the basic structure of our government, etc.--is in English and has been in place for quite some time. Efforts to raise the bar in this regard might be tantamount to ditching the "poor, tired, and huddled masses" schtick.

As for the issue of fairness in dealing with the hispanic or latino or Mexican or whatever the heck the nom du jour is, so far I haven't heard anyone but you raise this aspect of the situation, at all. Most folks seem focused on practical aspects of the problem. If we tried to send those who are already here back, how would we go about doing that. If we tried to stop or even significantly slow down the continuous influx, how could either be done?

In terms of putting forth suggestions for enforcement/facilitation, I only caught one (I might've missed others) and that was the idea of putting up a wall. I dunno if a wall would work, really. It takes a lot of people to erect and then man such a long wall and that'd cost some money. Similarly, the notion of increasing funding to INS to deport illegal aliens already here doesn't seem to go anywhere; we've already accepted the benefits of this sub-population in our economy. We just don't want the negative consequences. (well, that's almost certainly an overly-simple take on the matter)
 
[quote name='RBM'] Efforts to raise the bar in this regard might be tantamount to ditching the "poor, tired, and huddled masses" schtick[/QUOTE]

Well, if you really look at things they already did that. As I said, you have to have sponsorship. You have to sign stuff saying you won't go on public aid for ten years and so on. I just suggest the rigors of getting in be made more practical and then leave the people who got here legally and jumped through the hoops the hell alone. They have umm, about ten million illegals to worry about why waste time hounding the legal immigrants? But in either case, the sick, hungry and poor crap is bullshit anyway. We're not a giant charity even if we act like it sometime. It should be send us your smart, successful and productive. That's a hell of a lot more practical. Before all our social programs it really didn't matter. You came here and you prospered or you died. But that isn't how it works now. We turn away litterally boatloads of starving people, the sick and the hungry thing isn't how it works in either case.

For the record though, I'm not suggesting making it harder. I'm suggesting making it easier but in a more practical way. Why does it require a loophole like marriage? Why do they test the health of my wife, force her to get a sponsor and so on but do not care at all how much she was making at her previous job or how well she speaks English, or if she had a high school education. Believe me, all these things DO MATTER when it comes to how productive the immigrant will be in America. I'm saying make it easier but less blind.

[quote name='RBM']
As for the issue of fairness in dealing with the hispanic or latino or Mexican or whatever the heck the nom du jour is, so far I haven't heard anyone but you raise this aspect of the situation, at all. Most folks seem focused on practical aspects of the problem. If we tried to send those who are already here back, how would we go about doing that. If we tried to stop or even significantly slow down the continuous influx, how could either be done?[/QUOTE]

Read the last few paragraphs of my first post. I spelled it out. You won't have to deport people if you just enforce existing laws and become a little more practical.

A: Make legal immigration easier and more practical. I'm not saying let everyone in. But sure, toss some tests their way, see if they can speak English (yes citizenship requires a simple English test but immigration does not). Put them through some simple criteria but make it reasonable and practical. Also, I'm sure there are some illegals that are in my wife's situation. People that came through the front door, obeyed the laws and had the system fail them. Fixing the system will allow for less people falling through the cracks.

B: Yes, you can do a better job of securing things. Part of the problem is that some states and cities don't even allow police officers to accost illegal immigrants. You have "catch and release" rules and such. Making it harder to come here and harder to stay here WILL decrease illegal immigration. You can never stop all the illegal immigration but you can keep it from being a flood.

C: Punish the employers of illegals and punish public agencies that are providing aid to illegals. They say they come here for work. Well, if they aren't getting paid and they aren't getting aid they'll be much more inclined to turn around and go back or better yet try to immigrate legally.

I said that all before, but there it is again...
 
[quote name='RBM'] Efforts to raise the bar in this regard might be tantamount to ditching the "poor, tired, and huddled masses" schtick.
In terms of putting forth suggestions for enforcement/facilitation, I only caught one (I might've missed others) and that was the idea of putting up a wall. I dunno if a wall would work, really. It takes a lot of people to erect and then man such a long wall and that'd cost some money.
[/quote]

"Poor, tired and huddled massed" doesn't necisarily equate "stupid, illiterate burdeons". I think that if they can't pass a basic compotency test based around simple math and reading (English of course :roll: ) then they'd probably just wind up being people that tax the already overloaded civil services.

Well, we could hire the illegals to build it for us, that would really cut costs. :rofl:
 
It is possible that making it easier for people to immigrate legally could diminish the number of people who try to enter the country illegally, although I'm a little doubtful that this would have much of an impact. One could lower prices in a store in the hopes that shoplifting would abate, but I doubt that would work well, either. As for reducing the loopholes for legal immigrants simply to make the process more reasonable: that's a difficult sell in the current political climate, given the public's tendency to oversimplify matters.

We seem to be circling around the issue of enforcement without actually coming to grips with it. Currently, I get the sense that immigration officials are severely out-matched....that there are a handful of INS officials patrolling a long border, and that penalties for employing illegal immigrants are nominal.

If you agree that these are some fundamental reasons behind the poorly enforced immigration laws, then the root of the problem would appear to be our own legislation. Namely, that if we sank more funding into INS, there'd be more officers available for enforcment or wall-building or whatever measures they care to put in place...but clearly, this is not a priority for the average American. Looking at our abysmally absurd fiscal budgets for the past two years, our priorities clearly lie elsewhere.

In addition, the less-than-heavy penalties for employing illegal immigrants would also seem to stem from public apathy. Certainly, if I were a well-paid chairman on the board of a huge company which hires scads of illegal immigrants, I'd be certain to hire some mighty persuasive lobbyists to wine and dine congressmen who would then make pleasant speeches and keep the nominal penalties in place.
 
[quote name='RBM']
If you agree that these are some fundamental reasons behind the poorly enforced immigration laws, then the root of the problem would appear to be our own legislation. Namely, that if we sank more funding into INS, there'd be more officers available for enforcment or wall-building or whatever measures they care to put in place...but clearly, this is not a priority for the average American. Looking at our abysmally absurd fiscal budgets for the past two years, our priorities clearly lie elsewhere.

In addition, the less-than-heavy penalties for employing illegal immigrants would also seem to stem from public apathy. Certainly, if I were a well-paid chairman on the board of a huge company which hires scads of illegal immigrants, I'd be certain to hire some mighty persuasive lobbyists to wine and dine congressmen who would then make pleasant speeches and keep the nominal penalties in place.[/QUOTE]

One reason I think it is important to have these debates (and bring such debates to our congressmen, so far I've written one, I intend to write another and so on) is because we as voters should have the final say on the matter. This is not a extreme situation yet, but it will become one. Our congressmen, tend to be subservient to the Latino vote or to the businesses who stand to gain from illegal immigration. If not Mexico itself (which loves the fact that it has turned its unemployed into its largest income source). I think it needs to become a priority because the problem will only increase and immigration as a whole needs to be overhauled.

One of my greatest fears is that we do provide amnesty to ten million illegal immigrants, who will in turn put more pressure on the congressmen and they in turn will make it even easier on illegal immigrants from Mexico and we end up with the "front door" remaining closed to immigrants from other countries, while the "back door" is left wide open and we have a never-ending flood of immigrants from Mexico that eventually dominate our political landscape. I have no problem with immigration, I have a problem with immigration being so one-sided and partial to one group of people who by entering illegally are showing their distain for our laws.

Apathy is a issue because only the people more directly affected tend to be vocal. Polls make it clear how Americans tend to stand on this issue but they don't stand UP on this issue.
 
[quote name='KrAzY3']Legal immigration is a bullshit process and it doesn't need to be. It could be more fair and more reasonable.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the world of government.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Welcome to the world of government.[/QUOTE]

Oh do I know it... bureaucracy at its finest.
I can't believe anyone wants the government to run even more things. I could really go in depth on all the bullshit we've had to go through to try to allow my wife to legally immigrate but it would be even longer than my first post.
 
Excellent post. Your perspective on the whole issue is very interesting and I read your post twice even to make sure I got it all.
 
Good post, I have known and been friends with many illegal immigrants, I don't knock them or the quality/quantity of the work they do, my only regard would be that I would like to see them pay taxes, other than that I am pretty groovy on them being here.
 
I agree that it needs to be easier. My relatives were sponsored by my parents to come here legally and yet it took years and tons of bureaucratic sh...stuff for them to finally become permanent residents. It took even longer for htem to gain citizenship. They had trouble finding jobs although they were all highly educated in Vietnam and many of them somehow graduated from UCSD with high GPAs despite not knowing any English (obviously the smart genes weren't passed onto me) but they ended up working at Vietnamese restaurants and supermarkets where they were paid under the table.

Is this "no public aid for ten years" thing new? Both of my grandmas recently got their citizenship despite not knowing a word of English (you just need to memorize the questions and answer in something that sounds like English, haha), they're both receiving public aid. The grandma that doesn't hate me is 94 and my relatives get money for "taking care" of her (she cooks, cleans, and babysits for them, lol). She also receives money for herself, which she distributes to her grandchildren (yay!!!) and great grandchildren (boo....more money to the other group!).
 
This is my biggest problem with the whole situation.
Then again, it's nothing new.
Same applies to the math that, you can do something illegal to be richer, than the schmoe working their butt off legally.

Sorry your wife is having to go through that man. I work with someone who had to go through a somewhat similar situation. A real shame.
 
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