Dumb people with money

[quote name='mtxbass1']What?

This is bullshit. EVERY PERSON can save money. Even if you save something as small as $5 a week, it can be done. That adds up to over $260 a year. I find it hard to believe that anyone who works a job simply cannot afford to save money. It's that they choose not to. Even if you are saving pennies, you are still saving money. It all adds up over time. People don't get rich over night.

Saving money requires making smarter choices. A prime example of this is eating out verses cooking at home. I spend roughly $25-40 everytime I go out to dinner with my girlfriend. If we had taken that money and went to the grocery store, we could have bought at least 2-3 (or more) good meals. The same would apply to any situation like this. If you cut back on spending, or make wiser spending choices, you will save money. It's all about discipline.[/quote]

260 a Week!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! One sickness during the winter and that 260 will be gone in co-pays only!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']What?

This is bullshit. EVERY PERSON can save money. Even if you save something as small as $5 a week, it can be done. That adds up to over $260 a year. I find it hard to believe that anyone who works a job simply cannot afford to save money. It's that they choose not to. Even if you are saving pennies, you are still saving money. It all adds up over time. People don't get rich over night.

Saving money requires making smarter choices. A prime example of this is eating out verses cooking at home. I spend roughly $25-40 everytime I go out to dinner with my girlfriend. If we had taken that money and went to the grocery store, we could have bought at least 2-3 (or more) good meals. The same would apply to any situation like this. If you cut back on spending, or make wiser spending choices, you will save money. It's all about discipline.[/quote]

I made the wise monetary decision to stay childfree. I don't live in a farm therefore I don't need kids to survive.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']Hey tell that to someone who is making $7 an hour, full time working. That's below 1k a month AFTER taxes. Who can live on less than a 1k a month unless they live with mom and dad or a boat load of roomates.:drool: Yet one in four wokers in America are currently in this situation. Ie making less than 20k per year.[/quote]

Then you know how you solve this problem? Tell them to get either a second job or to try to find higher paying work.

If you are truely struggling with things, then what other choice do you have? It's either survive with 2 jobs or continue to be "poor".

Even if the second job was at minimum wage AND the person only worked an additonal 15-20 hours a week, they would be bringing in almost $100 extra a week.

I find it hard to believe that you can't then survive on those two incomes. On the low end, that's nearly $1300 a month after taxes. People get by on a lot lower than this.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']260 a Week!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! One sickness during the winter and that 260 will be gone in co-pays only!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!![/quote]

260 a week? Did you even read my post? $5 was an example amount to be saved per week, resulting in $260 a year. EVERYONE CAN SAVE AT LEAST THAT. The point is that ANYONE can save money, no matter what the amount.

People choose not to save because they have never been taught how to manage money. Like I have stated repeatedly. Every single person CAN save money. It's up to that person to have the discipline to do so.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']Hey tell that to someone who is making $7 an hour, full time working. That's below 1k a month AFTER taxes. Who can live on less than a 1k a month unless they live with mom and dad or a boat load of roomates.:drool: Yet one in four wokers in America are currently in this situation. Ie making less than 20k per year.[/QUOTE]
Work more, get a better degree etc. You have options.

Not only that, but you can qualify to buy a house with that income easily. Not a great house, mind you, but a HOUSE, where you get something for each month's payment as opposed to washing it down a rent toilet. I bought my first house when I made approx 18k/year. Check out the Community Homebuyer's Program, a govenment program to help people get their first house.

It's all about your choices, and what you do with your money. As I said, if you look close at where your money goes, I bet we can find ways for you to save. Here's the thing, it's not easy or fun. If you want to prepare for the future, you sacrifice NOW. Our parents and grand-parents understood this. We, apparently, do not.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']Then you know how you solve this problem? Tell them to get either a second job or to try to find higher paying work.

If you are truely struggling with things, then what other choice do you have? It's either survive with 2 jobs or continue to be "poor".

Even if the second job was at minimum wage AND the person only worked an additonal 15-20 hours a week, they would be bringing in almost $100 extra a week.

I find it hard to believe that you can't then survive on those two incomes. On the low end, that's nearly $1300 a month after taxes. People get by on a lot lower than this.[/quote]

Living a miserable existence with no free time as well. Yet the top 1 percent gets 1300 a week off the interest of their money or more. Yet to them the American economy is "Steady and Strong". *sigh* with some teeth grinding.
 
mtxbass1: I think the problem here is that people these days simply want to whine and blame their failures on others. Working another job, bettering yourself, saving money: these things are HARD. They require effort, dedication and discipline. Too many people today think they should be rewarded for existing, not for effort.

Just look at the above post: He's mad that rich people are rewarded for investing their money. HE could save money, put it in a money market account, and avail himself of capital gains as well, but it's much easier to just bitch about rich people than it is to do something.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']Work more, get a better degree etc. You have options.

Not only that, but you can qualify to buy a house with that income easily. Not a great house, mind you, but a HOUSE, where you get something for each month's payment as opposed to washing it down a rent toilet. I bought my first house when I made approx 18k/year. Check out the Community Homebuyer's Program, a govenment program to help people get their first house.

It's all about your choices, and what you do with your money. As I said, if you look close at where your money goes, I bet we can find ways for you to save. Here's the thing, it's not easy or fun. If you want to prepare for the future, you sacrifice NOW. Our parents and grand-parents understood this. We, apparently, do not.[/quote]

Yet when our parents and grandparents where our age they could leave HS and make a living wage which in today's America you need a college education, clean credit, clean criminal history and a good luck wish just to have a CHANCE of getting a job that will let you move out of your parent's house.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']Living a miserable existence with no free time as well. Yet the top 1 percent gets 1300 a week off the interest of their money or more. Yet to them the American economy is "Steady and Strong". *sigh* with some teeth grinding.[/quote]

What other choice do you have? It's either work and be "miserable" or not work and still be miserable because you don't have any money to do anything.

What does the top 1% have anything to do with the ability of any individual to save money and better themselves? Last time I checked, the top 1% had absolutely NO IMPACT on a persons ability to have discipline when it comes to money.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']mtxbass1: I think the problem here is that people these days simply want to whine and blame their failures on others. Working another job, bettering yourself, saving money: these things are HARD. They require effort, dedication and discipline. Too many people today think they should be rewarded for existing, not for effort.

Just look at the above post: He's mad that rich people are rewarded for investing their money. HE could save money, put it in a money market account, and avail himself of capital gains as well, but it's much easier to just bitch about rich people than it is to do something.[/quote]

agreed.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']mtxbass1: I think the problem here is that people these days simply want to whine and blame their failures on others. Working another job, bettering yourself, saving money: these things are HARD. They require effort, dedication and discipline. Too many people today think they should be rewarded for existing, not for effort.[/quote]

Well when you are competing with 50 people for the same second job paying $7 an hour chances are you are not going to get that second job. People in this board seem to believe that you an walk into any HR department at any company and DEMAND a job. You people have a strong sense of reality....NOT!!!!!
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']What other choice do you have? It's either work and be "miserable" or not work and still be miserable because you don't have any money to do anything.

What does the top 1% have anything to do with the ability of any individual to save money and better themselves? Last time I checked, the top 1% had absolutely NO IMPACT on a persons ability to have discipline when it comes to money.[/quote]

The top 1% control 70% of the country's wealth. This reduces the cash flow in society, which causes the FEDS to increase the money supply which in turn causes inflation which in turn causes high interest rates to reduce the inflation or keep it at bay. This is how someone with 2 million in the bank is hurting someone who works for a lving without even realizing it.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']Yet when our parents and grandparents where our age they could leave HS and make a living wage which in today's America you need a college education, clean credit, clean criminal history and a good luck wish just to have a CHANCE of getting a job that will let you move out of your parent's house.[/quote]

Having "good luck" and a "clean criminal history" have absolutely NOTHING to do with the chance of getting a job. The same with a college education and "clean credit".

Is it suddenly good luck that an individual works and saves up enough money to move away from home?

Is it because of this individuals "clean criminal history" that they landed that job making $7.00 an hour? Hardly.

Does NOT having a college education prevent you from doing something with your life and bettering yourself? Hardly. Look at how many business leaders today haven't been to college in their entire lives. The number might suprise you.

How do you think your credit gets "dirty"? It's certainly not done at random and it's not based on race or age. The decisions you make with your money and lifestyle "dirty" your credit.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']Yet when our parents and grandparents where our age they could leave HS and make a living wage which in today's America you need a college education, clean credit, clean criminal history and a good luck wish just to have a CHANCE of getting a job that will let you move out of your parent's house.[/QUOTE]
Again, absolute bullshit.

Pizza Hit 40hr week = $1000/month
Blockbuster 20hrs week = $500/month
--------------------------------------------------
total income/month = 1500 after taxes
This is assuming you stick to 7/hr forever

Monthly expenses
House mortgage for $60k house/condo - $600/month
Food - $150/month
electricity - $60/month
telephone - $40/month
car - $200/month
insurance - $100/month
screwing off money - $75/month
savings - $200/month
----------------------------------------
total expenses - $1425

That still leaves $75 you could blow any way you like..... Cut out the car, and associated insurance and you could damn near be a homeowner with just your one job.
 
I'd swear that jmcc conjured my spirit in this thread (not everybody accurately uses phrases like 'socio-economic,' nor do they find humor in anecdotal evidence damning the entirety of the poor), but I'm not so sure since he hasn't brought up the race card yet.

So I will.

If you want to blather about that all poor people (or most, or whatever bullshit non-data-strictly-anecdote-and-Michael-Savage-statements-having qualifier you want to use) are responsible for their own plight, riddle me this:

Are black people dumber than whites, lazier than whites, or both?

Seeing as how it is an undeniable fact (you can check the census website on per capita/per household earnings data) that (1) black people, on the whole, are *FAR* more unemployed than whites, and those who are employed have *FAR* lower earnings compared to whites, then one of the two explanations stands (and let me give you a hint: one of 'em ain't "coincidence").

1) The structural makeup of society is such that there are patterns of discrimination that prevent blacks from proportionate amounts of gainful employment, that prevent them from earning as much as whites, that show up in the public schools each go to (don't fool yourself into thinking that public education is really desegregated because you went to school with maybe 10 black kids), that serve as a penalty when it comes time for a promotion, and living in poorer communities because of housing and rent (and/or mortgage/loan) discrimination.

2) Blacks are lazy and dumb when compared to whites, on the whole.

So, if you want to go the "individual" route, then you are denying that the society in which we live offers up penalties for people of differing racial/ethnic categories. There is no discrimination, only opportunity, and the failure or success in utilizing it to the best of your abilities. White people have no advantage over blacks. At all. Nope. None. Them negroes sho' is dumb, haw haw! Right?

And let's not fool ourselves. Any talk (and I'm not pointing specific fingers here) of "rims" on cars, or multiple children, or welfare, or whathaveyou - the majority of that is coded language for "those damn blacks," so don't come to me with any of your "I don't see race," "I'm not racist" bullshit. In the meantime, if you can feasibly come up with something that explains why SO MANY MORE blacks earn shit compared to whites, if they work at all, if we're talking about problems faced on the *individual* level.

Oh, and for the record, nobody earns everything on their own. You ain't Mowgli, so you had people help you along the way to get where you are. To claim pure self-sufficiency is not only incorrect, but reeking of bullshit narcissism.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']Again, absolute bullshit.

Pizza Hit 40hr week = $1000/month
Blockbuster 20hrs week = $500/month
--------------------------------------------------
total income/month = 1500 after taxes
This is assuming you stick to 7/hr forever

Monthly expenses
House mortgage for $60k house/condo - $600/month
Food - $150/month
electricity - $60/month
telephone - $40/month
car - $200/month
insurance - $100/month
screwing off money - $75/month
savings - $200/month
----------------------------------------
total expenses - $1425

That still leaves $75 you could blow any way you like..... Cut out the car, and associated insurance and you could damn near be a homeowner with just your one job.[/quote]

.........and if you get laid off? Then what? $75 is a stretch. I'm not moving out until I have an income which I don't have at least 1K of disposable income after regular savings (401K, Roth IRA), taxes and expenses.
 
Your post is just another version of "I got it roughr than you so it's o.k. for me to not do anything with my life and it ain't my fault."

You also make a lot of assumptions in there, most of which are wrong. As to myself, I am not Tarzan or the jungle boy; yes I was raised by a mom till I was 15. I credit her with that, but that's all.

Do minorities statistically have it rougher? Yep. Is it a matter of their race? Nope. Is it a matter of widespread discrimination, no. If you compare races of the same socio-economic gourpings, you'll notice the disparities in race/pay disappear.

Yes, at the moment white people tend to have it best in America. Does that mean you can give up if you aren't white and it's not your fault? No.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']mtxbass1: I think the problem here is that people these days simply want to whine and blame their failures on others. Working another job, bettering yourself, saving money: these things are HARD. They require effort, dedication and discipline. Too many people today think they should be rewarded for existing, not for effort.

Just look at the above post: He's mad that rich people are rewarded for investing their money. HE could save money, put it in a money market account, and avail himself of capital gains as well, but it's much easier to just bitch about rich people than it is to do something.[/quote]

BTW, I do invest. I have 100 shares of SPY. 200 of C. 100 of JNJ. 200 of QQQQ. 150 of GE. 381 of VFINX. All this between my margin account (treat it like a cash account though), 401K and Roth IRA
 
[quote name='dberuvides'].........and if you get laid off? Then what? $75 is a stretch. I'm not moving out until I have an income which I don't have at least 1K of disposable income after regular savings (401K, Roth IRA), taxes and expenses.[/QUOTE]
Good for you. You are making a WISE choice, and I applaud you for it. Odds are, if you follow that sort of path through life, you will live a very stable and rewarding life. Kudos.
EDIT: And I'm glad to hear you are investing. I retract my previous statement.

However, to go back to that example, Blockbuster and Pizza Hut aren't known for downsizing, and if they do, I can point to a dozen equivalent fast food or serivce industries that are hiring.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']The top 1% control 70% of the country's wealth. This reduces the cash flow in society, which causes the FEDS to increase the money supply which in turn causes inflation which in turn causes high interest rates to reduce the inflation or keep it at bay. This is how someone with 2 million in the bank is hurting someone who works for a lving without even realizing it.[/quote]

:rofl:

That's the funniest post I've read on here all day.

I'll make sure I keep that in mind when I have millions in the bank that somehow, somewhere, I am somehow impacting a persons INDIVIDUAL CHOICE to do better in their life in regards to their financial situation.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']Do minorities statistically have it rougher? Yep. Is it a matter of their race? Nope. Is it a matter of widespread discrimination, no. If you compare races of the same socio-economic gourpings, you'll notice the disparities in race/pay disappear.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'd ask you to show me the data, but you've essentially just said "if you compare people of similar earnings, you'll find that their earnings are similar," so, no, I don't think I need to see that data.

I'm talking about average earnings and employment. Can you tell me why 10% of all blacks over 16 are unemployed, yet only 5.1% of whites are? (source).

Can you tell me why whites earn, on average, $132 more per week ($657) than blacks ($525)? Or why Hispanics earn even less ($456), and Asians more ($702) (source) Is it because Asians are smart (so smart, so smart), while Hispanics and blacks are just dumb and lazy (compared to us vanguard whites, anyway)?

Is the US Bureau of Labor Statistics wrong? Would you like to continue to pull nothing even remotely resembling evidence out of your ass, yet again, or, if you prefer, you can show me precisely why you are correct. I dare you to cite some fucking data.

Of course, in reality, I anxiously await your next anecdote to prove me wrong.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']Work more, get a better degree etc. You have options.

Not only that, but you can qualify to buy a house with that income easily. Not a great house, mind you, but a HOUSE, where you get something for each month's payment as opposed to washing it down a rent toilet. I bought my first house when I made approx 18k/year. Check out the Community Homebuyer's Program, a govenment program to help people get their first house.

It's all about your choices, and what you do with your money. As I said, if you look close at where your money goes, I bet we can find ways for you to save. Here's the thing, it's not easy or fun. If you want to prepare for the future, you sacrifice NOW. Our parents and grand-parents understood this. We, apparently, do not.[/QUOTE]

I just bought my first house a few months ago and I only make around $10,000 a year.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']:rofl:

That's the funniest post I've read on here all day.

I'll make sure I keep that in mind when I have millions in the bank that somehow, somewhere, I am somehow impacting a persons INDIVIDUAL CHOICE to do better in their life in regards to their financial situation.[/quote]

I guess Robert Reich is a fool then when he was on C-Span saying the same thing I just paraphrased. :roll:
 
Plenty of poor ppl make bad choices and expect others to pay for it, and since we feel bad for punishing the kids of poor people (with some justification I believe) we give these poor people money; however this unfortunately starts the cycle all over again.

As has been said before, however, the amount of money spent on welfare queens is dwarfed by the amount spent on corporate welfare and "bridges to nowhere".
 
[quote name='dberuvides']I guess Robert Reich is a fool then when he was on C-Span saying the same thing I just paraphrased. :roll:[/quote]

So who paraphrased who?

Just because a person is on C-Span this implies that they know what they are talking about? Being on C-Span (or any other network) for that matter has little to do with someone knowing what they are talking about.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']Again, absolute bullshit.

Pizza Hit 40hr week = $1000/month
Blockbuster 20hrs week = $500/month
--------------------------------------------------
total income/month = 1500 after taxes
This is assuming you stick to 7/hr forever

Monthly expenses
House mortgage for $60k house/condo - $600/month
Food - $150/month
electricity - $60/month
telephone - $40/month
car - $200/month
insurance - $100/month
screwing off money - $75/month
savings - $200/month
----------------------------------------
total expenses - $1425

That still leaves $75 you could blow any way you like..... Cut out the car, and associated insurance and you could damn near be a homeowner with just your one job.[/QUOTE]

Dude where the fuck are you pulling those numbers from? I looked for a house for 2 years and i never saw a house that was 60k that was move in ready that didn't need to be rehabed. Chances are if you even find a house that cheap you'll have to pay for natural gas for cooking and heat (which isnt cheap) and the projected electric is way off.
 
The problem here is that you are taking a difference(average income) and another difference(race) and claiming that the one is the cause of the other.

Let me put this another way. Why do blacks earn the VAST majority of NCAA Basketball scholorships. Are Asians and Hispanics just too lazy to run? Are white people biologically pre-disposed to a meager vertical leap? Same goes for football as well. http://www.arthurhu.com/index/asports.htm

You've noted two differences. Can I explain the differences, no. Neither can you. You've simply assumed the one causes the other.Simply throwing inflammatory language into the mix adds nothing to your argument. Try to keep it civil, I have, and I expect the same from you.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']Dude where the fuck are you pulling those numbers from? I looked for a house for 2 years and i never saw a house that was 60k that was move in ready that didn't need to be rehabed. Chances are if you even find a house that cheap you'll have to pay for natural gas for cooking and heat (which isnt cheap) and the projected electric is way off.[/QUOTE]
Depends on where you live. In rural Ohio, for example, you'd find you could live even better than that for less money. In metropolitan New York, you probably couldn't even find a hovel. I'm talking averages.


http://realestate.yahoo.com/Homes_f...0&cl_bds=1&cl_bth=1.0&ce_login=&submit=Search
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']I don't even want to get started on my ex-boyfriend's family... God damn fuckers....

His mother's boyfriend makes $30k a year as an insurance salesman. They have 5 kids in the family from four different fathers. His mother doesn't work, of course, and feeds off the MA welfare, etc. even though she doesn't even live there anymore (gets the aid through her PO box in MA). Of course, like the other people in this topic, they have shit that no person in their position should need. Satellite TV, cell phones, a bunch of other shit, while the children are fed cereal for dinner and the adults get fish and a full dinner. The mother spends the $100 a week she gets from one of the fathers- the only one that actually pays up besides the boyfriend- on DVDs, movie tickets, dinner at a nice restaurant, and other shit that's certainly not a necessity.

The ex inherited similar values, which I'm not going to go into in depth this post. Let's just say he wasted my parents' money on college tuition for a summer and got a 1.9 GPA (failing two classes), convinced us to get him a $3000 laptop, and we paid for all his expenses while he lived with us for 6 months. And what do I get in return? Physical and verbal abuse on me and my mother, and 3 years wasted of my romantic life, as well as thousands of dollars. Well, at least now I'm with a lawyer who was a football player in college, so if he ever tries anything, he's fucked.


EDIT: Also forgot to add that my ex keylogged my computer to get my passwords, AIM conversations, etc, so I couldn't talk to any of my friends about it except in person, which isn't an option most of the time because of distance.[/quote]

Where's that worst person alive thread again? This guy sounds like a total ass.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']Depends on where you live. In rural Ohio, for example, you'd find you could live even better than that for less money. In metropolitan New York, you probably couldn't even find a hovel. I'm talking averages.


http://realestate.yahoo.com/Homes_f...0&cl_bds=1&cl_bth=1.0&ce_login=&submit=Search[/QUOTE]

No i live in Missouri where the cost of living is still pretty cheap compared to the national average. If you are living in a rural area you need to factor in the amount of money you're going to spend on gas. I could live 2 hours away and probably live cheaper but in the end you're just wasting your time.
 
Wow... I expected to find some funny stories about rich people blowing loads of cash, but I didn't.

Someone move this shit to the Vs forum.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']The problem here is that you are taking a difference(average income) and another difference(race) and claiming that the one is the cause of the other.[/quote]

Well, given time ordering, it certainly isn't the case that underemployment causes one to become black.

Let me put this another way. Why do blacks earn the VAST majority of NCAA Basketball scholorships. Are Asians and Hispanics just too lazy to run? Are white people biologically pre-disposed to a meager vertical leap? Same goes for football as well. http://www.arthurhu.com/index/asports.htm
Click to expand...

This, of course, assumes that you will find equal participation in sports among the races. Would you like to argue that? At any rate, you're comparing something viewed as socially extracurricular with something viewed as socially compulsory. Not everyone plays basketball, yet damn near everyone (I'm sure a few don't) spends a few years in school getting an education. Your sports analogy does what is referred to as "selecting on the dependent variable," and it also doesn't regard the fact that the population of people who play basketball is very different from the population in general (the one where we are all spending some modicum of time in school).

You've noted two differences. Can I explain the differences, no. Neither can you. You've simply assumed the one causes the other.Simply throwing inflammatory language into the mix adds nothing to your argument. Try to keep it civil, I have, and I expect the same from you.
Click to expand...

I'll do my best to keep it civil.

As far as two uncorrelated differences, I've beaten these findings to death, but a sociologist (Devah Pager) has been working on a project comparing race and criminal history as a factor in determining employment. Now, it's not controversial at all to argue that having a felony background would impact your chances at employment. I hope we can agree on that. I also hope that you can agree that there is a certain degree of discrimination in our society; this discrimination, as backed up by the earnings and unemployment data from the BLS, works to the detriment of the black population in this country.

Still with me? Not disagreeing yet? Her premise (she has a paper out, soon to be a full-on book, entitled "The Mark of a Criminal Record") is that being black hurts your chances at employment more than being white, and having a criminal history hurts your chances more than not having one. That's not too out of this world a claim to make.

Her findings show that (and keep in mind that all study subjects are otherwise equal, other than race and criminal background - education, experience, family status, etc. - all equal) black males with no criminal background received fewer callbacks about prospective jobs than whites with felony histories. In short, both penalties (the race penalty and the felon penalty) exist; yet, the social penalty for being black is *more* than the social penalty for being an ex-felon!

It's not an unrelated phenomenon, and that's something that's undeniable. If it was just random error, we'd see even distribution of races impoverished in various cities, or we'd see differences from city to city (blacks are impoverished in one, latinos in another, asians in another, and perhaps even whites). Nevertheless, the pattern is thorough, consistent, and predictable: inner-city poor means "black."
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']No i live in Missouri where the cost of living is still pretty cheap compared to the national average. If you are living in a rural area you need to factor in the amount of money you're going to spend on gas. I could live 2 hours away and probably live cheaper but in the end you're just wasting your time.[/QUOTE]
Sorry friend, but the numbers are still pretty accruate, and if you want to get technical about your location, I just gave a link to a 35k house. That would cut your mortgage payment almost in half, and pay for all the driving you could want to do. But while we're on that point; remember the jobs we're talking about. $7/hr entry level at a fastfood or entertainment service spot. Large commutes don't generally apply. As to electricity, it varies pretty widely, but even in Arizona, keeping my house at a nipply 68 at night, I never paid past 130 in a month, so there isn't THAT much wiggle room.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']Wow... I expected to find some funny stories about rich people blowing loads of cash, but I didn't.

Someone move this shit to the Vs forum.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I was hoping I'd post something about Paris Hilton rather than my ex-boyfriend when I read the topic title. :(
 
First off, Mykevermin...:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: You said exactly what I wanted to say, but did it 10X better.

I'm not shocked to see how some people view the poor after seeing the views on racism amongst the people here.

Saying people are poor because it's it their fault they don't get up and do something about it is total bull shit. Guess how I got my first retail job at 16, when I had NO expierence? Give up? I was white, and I later found out my boss was a racist prick. (caught him throwing away any application given in by a person of color)

Guess how I have my job now that pays 15/hour and I'm 19? I knew someone who got me the job. So if you think you were not helped by anyone else to get where you are now, I call bull shit.

But I'll save you reading time and tell you to track down the 30-Days episode where the guy and his wife live off of min. wage for a month.

Watch that and you tell me, "If people just try they can avoid being poor."
 
myke, a question if you will.

Do you believe that a persons ethnicity has an outcome on this person being able to make decisions with money? Does ethnicity affect their individual decision to make the right or wrong choice?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Well, given time ordering, it certainly isn't the case that underemployment causes one to become black.[/QUOTE]
Hahahah granted.

[quote name='mykevermin']This, of course, assumes that you will find equal participation in sports among the races[/QUOTE]
I would argue that participation in athletics is pretty constant across races. However, that wasn't the point. The point was simply that it's fallacious to attribute one discrepancy to another discrepancy without any causitave links.

[quote name='mykevermin']I'll do my best to keep it civil. [/QUOTE]
Appreciated. It is through discussions such as this that I find I learn the most... but I can't be engaged if people can't focus on the subject, rather than the debators.

[quote name='mykevermin']Now, it's not controversial at all to argue that having a felony background would impact your chances at employment. I hope we can agree on that. [/QUOTE]
I would certianly agree there. The sorts of people that control hiring decisions at most non-mimimum wage jobs would find themselves uncomfortable in the company of a convited felon.

[quote name='mykevermin']I also hope that you can agree that there is a certain degree of discrimination in our society[/QUOTE]
I might have argued this... but then I play Halo 2 on X-Box live.... agreed.


[quote name='mykevermin']Still with me? Not disagreeing yet? Her premise (she has a paper out, soon to be a full-on book, entitled "The Mark of a Criminal Record") is that being black hurts your chances at employment more than being white, and having a criminal history hurts your chances more than not having one. That's not too out of this world a claim to make.[/QUOTE]
Not at all. I would tend to agree with that stipulation, as long as we make the agreement that this is not an open and shut thing. i.e. for some people in some areas, this will be more pertinent than for others in the same area, or others in different areas.

[quote name='mykevermin']Her findings show that black males with no criminal background received fewer callbacks about prospective jobs than whites with felony histories. In short, both penalties (the race penalty and the felon penalty) exist; yet, the social penalty for being black is *more* than the social penalty for being an ex-felon![/QUOTE]
Interesting. If you have links I'd love to read more.

Here's the thing. This is not the kiss of death. Even with multiple strikes against you, you can still succeed. My neighbor in San Diego was a black man, AND a convicted felon. He delt with it, and he's living the suburban dream.

I agree, certain people have it harder than others. No doubt about it. My neighbor Ricky, had it much tougher than me. I had it tougher than others. Damn near EVERYONE has it tougher than a Bush. But that doesn't mean you can't succeed or that your detractions obviate the need to try.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']I'm not shocked to see how some people view the poor after seeing the views on racism amongst the people here.[/QUOTE]
My views of the poor have nothing to do with my views on race. All people are created equal, end of story.

[quote name='seanr1221']Saying people are poor because it's it their fault they don't get up and do something about it is total bull shit. [/QUOTE]
In what way. How does being poor remove any of the opportunities or financial realities I've already posted?


[quote name='seanr1221']But I'll save you reading time and tell you to track down the 30-Days episode where the guy and his wife live off of min. wage for a month.[/QUOTE]
I lived on minimum wage for years, I have no need of reading someone else's account if it, since I've DONE it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Her findings show that (and keep in mind that all study subjects are otherwise equal, other than race and criminal background - education, experience, family status, etc. - all equal) black males with no criminal background received fewer callbacks about prospective jobs than whites with felony histories. In short, both penalties (the race penalty and the felon penalty) exist; yet, the social penalty for being black is *more* than the social penalty for being an ex-felon![/quote]

Just wanted to add one question. Is she making a determination on how many employers knew of a candidate's felonies? As a former hiring manager, often we wouldn't know until after the second interview. Only once did someone broach the subject with me in an interview.

"Does it hurt my chances if I've been convicted of rape? Because I was framed the second time."
 
All I know is I'm 18 years old, and with no prior restaurant experience, I was able to easily secure a job as a waiter at the Olive Garden. In Oklahoma, it is still legal to pay servers below minimum wage, so I make a base pay of $2.13 an hour. With tips, however, on an absolutely horrendous night I can still make $8 an hour, and on a great night I can make anywhere up to $20 an hour. On an average night I make more per hour than either of my parents, easily. It's very hard work, but as long as I do what's expected of me, my job is secure. They are in constant need of waiters since turnover is very high, so nearly anyone (of any color or creed) can get a job there. I'm not sure if I know exactly what side of the fence I'm on in this discussion, so I'm just relating my own personal experiences. Take from it what you will.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']My views of the poor have nothing to do with my views on race. All people are created equal, end of story. [/QUOTE]

I didn't say you, I said people on this board (I'm mostly talking about that old Loco Roco thread)


In what way. How does being poor remove any of the opportunities or financial realities I've already posted?
Click to expand...

First, you don't think people of color have less opportunities then whites? You don't think people try to get out of poverty? You think they just blow money all the time like the sister in law in the OP does? Pass what you're smoking cause Id like some please.



I lived on minimum wage for years, I have no need of reading someone else's account if it, since I've DONE it.
Click to expand...

It's a show, not a book. Take an hour out of your day and watch it.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']First, you don't think people of color have less opportunities then whites? [/QUOTE]
Read my previous posts.

[quote name='seanr1221']You don't think people try to get out of poverty? [/QUOTE]
Talking about it, and doing something about it are different. Actually TALK to a few people. Ask them what they are doing. I have, you know what I'm told? How HARD it is. Very rarely am I told "I'm taking classes." or "I'm visiting hob fairs." Most of the time I'm just told how difficult life is, and how HARD they're wroking. When it comes to actually DOING something, even something as simple as applying for WIC, nothing is actually being DONE.

[quote name='seanr1221']You think they just blow money all the time like the sister in law in the OP does? Pass what you're smoking cause Id like some please.[/QUOTE]
First off, if you can't spare the insults, don't bother talking, I can filter you out pretty well. Second, YES. If you are poor, you do not NEED cable, or satellite, or a fancy new car, or spinners, or cigarettes, or cases of beer, or name brand clothes. YES. People are wasting a ton of their money. This one applies to people of all income levels. I have just as much sympathy (none) for a middle class guy losing his house because he bought more house than he could afford and spent his discretionary income on frivolities and had no savings.

[quote name='seanr1221']It's a show, not a book. Take an hour out of your day and watch it.[/QUOTE]
Again, I HAVE the expreience, why should I view a show on it?
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']myke, a question if you will.

Do you believe that a persons ethnicity has an outcome on this person being able to make decisions with money? Does ethnicity affect their individual decision to make the right or wrong choice?[/QUOTE]

ethnicity directly? nah.

I would argue that living in poverty has an impact on education and knowledge-based resources (balancing a checkbook, for example, or putting money into savings). Since many minorities are heavily concentrated into poverty, then perhaps indirectly there is a relationship, but it means that poverty tends to reproduce itself, and race/ethnicity could surely be disguised as a causal factor to someone. I wouldn't argue that ethnicity is a direct cause of very much at all, except getting people who have a fetish for your particular ethnicity h-o-t-t.

[quote name='Revenantae']Interesting. If you have links I'd love to read more.

Here's the thing. This is not the kiss of death. Even with multiple strikes against you, you can still succeed. My neighbor in San Diego was a black man, AND a convicted felon. He delt with it, and he's living the suburban dream.[/QUOTE]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=mark+of+a+criminal+record&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Search
(you probably need to be logged in at a university to get it).

Success is entirely possible, but success for different people comes at a higher price. Is it easier for a middle or upper-class person to succeed, given the resources they have over working-class people? Sure it is, but we don't begrudge them that. OTOH, when poverty recreates itself (due to discrimination, a lack of resources - such as social networks - that help people get ahead, or whatever reason we believe is paramount), we tend to blame the individual for not using the resources that they really don't have (and I'm not really talking about grants or loans, but the knowledge of their presence, faith in legitimate means of success after a lifetime around legitimate people - and illegitimate people - who haven't done shit with their lives, and the knowledge to access these resources).

[quote name='Quillion']Just wanted to add one question. Is she making a determination on how many employers knew of a candidate's felonies? As a former hiring manager, often we wouldn't know until after the second interview. Only once did someone broach the subject with me in an interview.

"Does it hurt my chances if I've been convicted of rape? Because I was framed the second time."[/QUOTE]

Ha! Reminds me of a court case my sister handled, and the defendant claimed innocence because "I only stabbed her once, not twice!" Well, you bring up a damned good point; not everybody check criminal record. It *is* there on your application, however. More importantly, you claim (and I fully believe you) that criminal record may not be checked all the time. I'm very pro-ex-felon (why release them if you want to continue to marginalize them, I say), so that's fine. The patterns that emerge in the data, however, suggest that employers are noticing criminal history, and they sure are noticing race. If they weren't, then you'd have approximately equal numbers of each group getting turned down or not getting a callback.

It's not shocking at all to say that some would-be employers don't notice criminal history; but it is shocking to argue, as the conclusion leads one to, that the employers notice, and react to, presumed race rather than criminal history. Trust me, while I'm tired and feel like playing some Galaga right now, if you want I can link to a paper by Doug Massey and Garvey Lundy (names aren't important, but I may forget it later), who did apartment hunts with "middle-class whites" (so noted for their lack of accent), "black middle-class english" speakers (so noted for their Bryant Gumbel tone of voice) and "black english vernacular" (ebonics, if you prefer) speakers. Just speaking over the phone, with 0 face-to-face encounters, discrimination was found, with the BEV's getting the worst end of it, but the BME guys were turned down more than whites too. So there *are* ways of determining race that don't involve actually meeting a person. Is their name "Tyrone" or something similar? Do they have an address in the part of town recognized as the "black" part of town? Listen to their accent - is it a "black" one? Anyway, Galaga is calling me, so I forget my point - perhaps merely that it is shameful that employers are failing to take note of criminal convictions as much as they seem to do (as a whole) race.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm tired and feel like playing some Galaga[/QUOTE]
I'm feeling you there. Good discussion, great points to think about.
 
[quote name='dberuvides']I guess Robert Reich is a fool then when he was on C-Span saying the same thing I just paraphrased. :roll:[/QUOTE]

Oh, you mean the buffoon who insisted everything was going great while the tech bubble was getting ready to burst, that Robert Reich?
 
[quote name='epobirs']Oh, you mean the buffoon who insisted everything was going great while the tech bubble was getting ready to burst, that Robert Reich?[/quote]

:D
 
[quote name='dberuvides']Yet when our parents and grandparents where our age they could leave HS and make a living wage which in today's America you need a college education, clean credit, clean criminal history and a good luck wish just to have a CHANCE of getting a job that will let you move out of your parent's house.[/QUOTE]

My god, what a terrible imposition. Asking that someone not have a history of criminal acts, like stealing from an employer or assaulting a fellow employee. How dare they expect that of a person who be in their pay and possibly representing them to the public.

And if you're at an age when you're looking to move out on your own for the first time, how the hell do manage to get a bad credit record?

You have remarkable capacity for whining. Perhaps it should go on your resume.

I'm a high school drop out. I got a GED much later but I created my own bad situation. Yet there was never a time when I couldn't find a job that would keep me going in a dinky studio or one bedroom apartment if I had the desire. The #1 obstacle to my success has alway been me. All of the things that worked against me, like my father dying when I was twelve, are terribly minor compared to the difficulty of doing what was required to hold down a decent job. I once had a co-worker who didn't see a working TV until he was 18 and had recently arrived near starvation in a boat convoy from Vietnam. The last time I saw him he was leaving our then mutual employer to take a Unix admin job that paid more annually than his grandparents had seen in their entire lifetimes. That was ten years ago and I have no doubt he's still doing well today.

You don't have to be a high achiever. In fact, that isn't always an advantage. I score from 140-155 on IQ tests, depending on my condition at the time, but it would be no problem for me to find countless individuals in my community who've been vastly better earners in their lives with lesser cognitive ability. They show up and do their jobs correctly, even if it's pretty boring and there are any number of things they'd rather be doing. I have no illusion that the stuff I regard as slow torture is pleasant for anyone else. The weakness is all mine.

Some people come from severely broken cultures. What happened in New Orleans was no surprise to me. It was a fun place to visit but the most grotesquely corrupt city I've ever seen within the US. That the infrastructure folded like a house of cards the first time it was ever really tested is just the way it goes when having blatant criminals in charge of things is considered local charm.

The biggest obstacle many born into minority groups face is not prejudicial treatment. No matter who you are you will eventually find someone in a position of power who will use it against you. The greatest obstacle is overcoming defective culture. All sorts of efforts have been made to provide aid in myriad forms but this cannot reshape the attitudes children receive from their parents. My Vietnamese co-worker was directly the product of his culture but most of my black friends look upon themselves as refugees from the culture that produced them. Now, these are guys who tend to be the same kinds of geeks as myself, which is why we ever became friends in the first place, but they've been made to feel like outcasts at times. At one time I thought it was something that died out in the 70s but all of them have mentioned being criticized for 'acting white,' especially when taking tech courses at school while ignoring things like 'Afro-American Studies.' They tended to feel they already had that one covered at birth.

Just about all of these guys date or married white or Asian women because they've become so alienated from other blacks. The one who married a black women found the perfect geekette to his geek. Their kids should have CalTech scholarships stapled to their birth certificates.
 
[quote name='epobirs']Some people come from severely broken cultures. What happened in New Orleans was no surprise to me. It was a fun place to visit but the most grotesquely corrupt city I've ever seen within the US. That the infrastructure folded like a house of cards the first time it was ever really tested is just the way it goes when having blatant criminals in charge of things is considered local charm.

The biggest obstacle many born into minority groups face is not prejudicial treatment. No matter who you are you will eventually find someone in a position of power who will use it against you. The greatest obstacle is overcoming defective culture. All sorts of efforts have been made to provide aid in myriad forms but this cannot reshape the attitudes children receive from their parents. My Vietnamese co-worker was directly the product of his culture but most of my black friends look upon themselves as refugees from the culture that produced them. Now, these are guys who tend to be the same kinds of geeks as myself, which is why we ever became friends in the first place, but they've been made to feel like outcasts at times. At one time I thought it was something that died out in the 70s but all of them have mentioned being criticized for 'acting white,' especially when taking tech courses at school while ignoring things like 'Afro-American Studies.' They tended to feel they already had that one covered at birth.

Just about all of these guys date or married white or Asian women because they've become so alienated from other blacks. The one who married a black women found the perfect geekette to his geek. Their kids should have CalTech scholarships stapled to their birth certificates.[/QUOTE]

So, perhaps you can explain to me how racial disparities in poverty and employment have been "American" far longer than mom and apple pie, are explained by a "defective culture" that, in many cases, people argue is a phenomenon of the past 4 decades or so (ironically, about the same time the civil rights act passed)? How can something so pervasive and constant be explained by something that happened after the fact?

"defective culture" is merely a polite way of saying "blacks are lazy and dumb."
 
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