Epic VP slams Revolution and PS3 Controller

[quote name='dafoomie']Seriously? A lightgun? I very highly doubt that... Its not just about aiming with the mouse, though it is very precise. How fast can you turn around with a mouse, opposed to a controller? What are you using to move, if not a mouse? Probably a joystick.[/QUOTE]

You do realize there's an expansion port, and the demo of Metroid Prime 2 using the Revolution controller used the analog stick as the movement. Turning around with an analog stick is not an issue, especially on high sensitivity, and with the combination of the remote as the aimer it should be a golden opprotunity for FPS developers and fans.

Man have you even looked into the Revolution controller aside from the few pictures released when it was announced? Because you suck at arguing.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Seriously? A lightgun? I very highly doubt that... Its not just about aiming with the mouse, though it is very precise. How fast can you turn around with a mouse, opposed to a controller? What are you using to move, if not a mouse? Probably a joystick.[/QUOTE]

So you agree that a mouse/keyboard is better than a controller.....and then you get off course....

But your point is that a light gun won't work since it won't let you turn around. That's already been dealt with since the controller detects motion in full 3D space. Maybe if it detected only on a two level flat panel range, then your point might stand.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Seriously? A lightgun? I very highly doubt that... Its not just about aiming with the mouse, though it is very precise. How fast can you turn around with a mouse, opposed to a controller? What are you using to move, if not a mouse? Probably a joystick.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, until I actually play with it I can't comment on how much better/equal/worse it is to aim with a Rev remote. But what I'm still not clear on is how they are going to implement turning and targeting and still keep the targeting similar to a lightgun.

edit: Yes, I realize it has an expansion port, but with a FPS you need to be able to control strafing and turning. Left to right on the analog will either have the function of turning or strafing which means either they will have to develop a new expansion peripheral which has both an analog stick as well as a method to manipulate the movement function not already assigned to the analog stick, or they are going to have to somehow combine one of those two movement types into the aiming function of the remote.
 
[quote name='dbiersdorf']Please don't make up statements, to prove a point, especially when it can be shot down so easily. Other then this one instance from a developer that has never even made a game for a Nintendo system, all but praise has been on the Revolution fore front.[/QUOTE]
You're taking me out of context. 3rd parties may very well like the controller in itself, but they don't like having to develop a game for both regular controllers and a radically different controller. It will be more difficult.

Nintendo is targeting a completely different audience. They will have some innovative, fun titles, but they won't have a ton of 3rd party support, and they won't get a lot of multiplatform games because of both the controller, and the situation with the installed base.

Man have you even looked into the Revolution controller aside from the few pictures released when it was announced? Because you suck at arguing.
Click to expand...
You Nintendo people are vicious... Please. He was making the point that he could beat someone with a keyboard and mouse on an FPS, with the Revolution controller (although he hasn't used it either). And I very much doubt that.
 
[quote name='Strell']So you agree that a mouse/keyboard is better than a controller.....and then you get off course....

But your point is that a light gun won't work since it won't let you turn around. That's already been dealt with since the controller detects motion in full 3D space. Maybe if it detected only on a two level flat panel range, then your point might stand.[/QUOTE]
So you're using the movement for both aiming and movement? Sounds awkward. Your aiming for something on the left side, but you start moving left, and moves the target towards the center of the screen. I had thought that you would control movement with the joystick connected to it.

It could work OK, and it could even be very fun, but I don't think it would be better (from a competitive standpoint) than keyboard/mouse, or even a regular controller.
 
[quote name='guardian_owl']Indeed, until I actually play with it I can't comment on how much better/equal/worse it is to aim with a Rev remote. But what I'm still not clear on is how they are going to implement turning and targeting and still keep the targeting similar to a lightgun.[/QUOTE]

With the analog stick....that attaches to the remote....
01n_remote_narrowweb__200x230.jpg


SEE PEOPLE!!!
 
[quote name='dafoomie']You're taking me out of context. 3rd parties may very well like the controller in itself, but they don't like having to develop a game for both regular controllers and a radically different controller. It will be more difficult.[/quote]

And when has that been an issue before? People were saying "that the DS and the PSP, why develop for an underpowered system and add unique features when a graphically superior version can be on the PSP"? Well look at which system is selling and garnering the most 3rd party support. I can tell you right now, it isn't Sony.

[quote name='dafoomie']Nintendo is targeting a completely different audience. They will have some innovative, fun titles, but they won't have a ton of 3rd party support, and they won't get a lot of multiplatform games because of both the controller, and the situation with the installed base.[/quote]

Says who? You? Third party support will be determined on how the system and other systems perform. Just because word of mouth speaks differently, and Nintendo's track record doesn't prove anything. Plenty of developers are antsy about new things like this, just as they were with the DS. And although I hate having to keep comparing to the DS, look at a game like Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith for the DS, it was a GBA game with literally no added content when it was ported to the DS. It made little to zero use of the touch screen. Yet it remains as one of the best selling DS games in America. The gimmicky crap will come, but it can still sell, consumers are mindless these days.

(funny how the PSP version of that game was scrapped too, huh?)


[quote name='dafoomie']You Nintendo people are vicious... Please. [/QUOTE]

To the uninformed such as you, yes.
 
see edit of above post

edit: man this thread is moving too fast :p, I'll just put it down here again.
Yes, I realize it has an expansion port, but with a FPS you need to be able to control strafing and turning. Left to right on the analog will either have the function of turning or strafing which means either they will have to develop a new expansion peripheral which has both an analog stick as well as a method to manipulate the movement function not already assigned to the analog stick, or they are going to have to somehow combine one of those two movement types into the aiming function of the remote.
 
They could use the A face button on the "remote" as a modifier to activate strafing on the analog stick. Or even one of the triggers on the analog attachment itself.

As for being able to turn around quickly, they could just have it function where when the analog stick is in move mode (meaning left and right turns your character left and right as opposed to strafe mode) a combined movement of the reticle (controlled by the "remote" read: aim) to the extreme left and right of the screen would enable you to turn quicker in that direction. Or not.

Though I still don't see the whole point with the "not being able to turn around with it" argument. The "remote" functions in the same way as a mouse only on a vertical surface (the tv). An incremental movement from the center point of the screen leads to faster turning to the corresponding side.
 
[quote name='guardian_owl']see edit of above post

edit: man this thread is moving too fast :p, I'll just put it down here again.
Yes, I realize it has an expansion port, but with a FPS you need to be able to control strafing and turning. Left to right on the analog will either have the function of turning or strafing which means either they will have to develop a new expansion peripheral which has both an analog stick as well as a method to manipulate the movement function not already assigned to the analog stick, or they are going to have to somehow combine one of those two movement types into the aiming function of the remote.[/QUOTE]

How about holding down one of the triggers and then pressing left on the analog allows strafing, and not holding it down allows you to turn around.

Nice try though.
 
here are a few articles i found on ign concerning the revolution controller:

ign: TGS 2005: hands-on the revolution controller
http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651275p1.html

ign: TGS 2005: revolution controller: the possibilites
http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651224p1.html

ign: TGS 2005: developers comment on revolution controller
http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651304p1.html

these articles contain info on how it will play fps games (as well as many other genres), developers thoughts about the controller, etc.

edit: i forgot to include the last link hehe.
 
Um. If controllers have two sticks and they are used for FPS, one is defined as forward/backward/strafe left/strafe right. The other is used for aiming.

On a keyboard, WASD does the same thing while the mouse handles aiming/turning.

Why can the Rev not do this? THe stick is used for f/w/sl/sr, the remote for aiming.

If you really felt the need, the remote is tilted for aiming, but moved left/right horizontally for strafing.

I don't get how something with more movement capability is somehow less capable than alternatives.

Edit: Damn typoes. :) Now my quote in Nigel's post looks even more ridiculous! :D
 
[quote name='dbiersdorf']How about holding down one of the triggers and then pressing left on the analog allows strafing, and not holding it down allows you to turn around.

Nice try though.[/QUOTE]
I like the way you think. ;)
 
[quote name='Strell']I don't get how something with more movement capability is somehow less capable that alternatives.[/QUOTE]

That's the best way ive seen that put.
 
from the first ign article:

First Person Shooting
So, we lied -- not all of the demonstrations were completely crude graphics. For the final demo, the one that most represented how a game might feel with the Revolution controller, Nintendo displayed what was apparently a test by the team at Retro Studios for what they could do with Metroid Prime 3. They stressed it was just a test, quickly thrown together in just a few weeks. For this, the analog control stick peripheral was used. We held it in our left hand to control the forwards, backwards, and side-strafing motions, as well as having access to triggers in back for scanning; meanwhile, the right hand used the main Revolution remote control to behave just like a mouse on a personal computer. It was a very natural application and felt pretty smooth, but since it wasn't a polished game it did feel a bit awkward at times, making us wonder what kind of things a developer could do to calibrate these kinds of controls for users. Nonetheless, the potential is absolutely huge for the FPS genre. If Nintendo can execute on that potential, Revolution could easily become the ultimate platform for shooters.
Click to expand...

from ign's second article:

Shooters
Popular example: Metroid Prime, TimeSplitters

How it might work: Using Nintendo's controller to navigate first-person shooters is going to be an amazingly empowering, freeing experience. We know this because Nintendo demoed a modified version of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes using the new peripheral, and the potential is undeniably jaw-dropping. In the demo, players could move Samus through the environments with the attached analog trigger. The need to lock-on to enemies, however, was been eliminated, thanks to a new level of precision aiming made possible with the pointer. In a level of accuracy rivaled only by a PC mouse configuration, gamers could simply use the device to point and shoot.


Nintendo fans got a taste of this play mechanic in the demo of Metroid Prime Hunters for DS, but Revolution's pointer is comparatively far more robust, enabling quick and dead-on targeting and the ability to turn on a dime. Developer Retro Studios apparently created the Prime 2 demo in order to test the waters, so to speak, for its upcoming Metroid Prime 3. The studio has a lot of control options at its disposal. Imagine a setup as follows. The attached nunchuck analog stick moves Samus Aran through the game world and the pointer is utilized for precise gunplay. Gamers jump with the oversized A button located beneath the pointer's D-Pad and they shoot with the device's underbelly trigger. Players press up, down, left and right on the conveniently placed D-Pad to switch between visors. Meanwhile, switching weapons will be just as easy. Holding down one of the trigger buttons on the analog stick will transform the D-Pad into a primary weapon select, at which point up, down, left and right on the D-Pad enable different guns. Press down the other button on the analog stick and secondary weapons become available to the D-Pad. Sounds great, right? But how the hell does Samus change into her classic morphball shape and further, how might that be controlled? There are all sorts of possibilities. Gamers could simply make a single downward stabbing motion with the pointer in order to trigger Aran's ball form and then stab upward again to regain her natural composure. When in morphball, Samus could be directed with the pointer with perfect precision. Wow! Bring it.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='dbiersdorf']
Nice try though.[/QUOTE]
Jeez, was my tone in my post at all hostile to the Rev controller? I just genuinely could not figure out how one could have free-form movement aiming with the remote like a light gun and still control strafe and turning without hampering movement of the character. Your solution is one I had not considered and very well may be the answer to this problem, there's no reason to get snippy.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']discussion about the revolutions controller really brings the rabid nintendo fan boys out.[/QUOTE]

Considering they have no games to play this year they have to have something to pass the time.
 
[quote name='guardian_owl']Basically their claim to fame is Unreal and the Unreal Tournaments, and that's about it.[/QUOTE]

Then I don't know why everyone is so upset about it. That's like the guy who made Kabuki Warriors slamming Shadow of Collossus.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Considering they have no games to play this year they have to have something to pass the time.[/QUOTE]

i mean honestly everyone claiming they know anything about this topic is full of shit...
 
My Principle issue with what he said is the importance he gave to graphics. As if graphical quality is the be-all end-all of games. Forget gameplay! Ours is pretty!! Oi...

Even Microsoft has made statements about how the jumps in graphical quality this generation pale compared to the last several. It's unavoidable. In that terrain, putting all your hope into graphical quality is going to leave you without much.

daroga
 
The thing that floored me was the claim that graphics are what separates Burnout from Pole Position. If Burnout looked like Burnout but played like Pole Position, everyone would be bashing EA for taking their 50 bucks. Surely we can expect gameplay improvements along with graphical improvements.
 
There are an incredible amount of companies licensing Epic's game engines, so I think the gameplay will be fine. They make very solid engines and good games. Seriously, why do Nintendo fans care what Epic says about the system anyway. I don't believe Epic even made a game for the GameCube, so this really doesn't make any difference what-so-ever.
 
I think im going to like the revo controller. Dont forget that nintendo has paved the way in terms of new ideas and many of them have caught on. We will just have to wait until they have kiosks available at game stores to decide if we like it or not.
 
That said, Rein continued, "Nintendo, you know, is going to make amazing games. I mean that's a given." Rein then conducted a quick audience survey to find out how many people present owned a GameCube - and found that rather a large number of hands were raised.

He then asked everyone who also owned a PS2 or Xbox to put their hands down - and concluded that under ten per cent of the audience were Cube owners only.

"Hard to make a business on less than 10 per cent," Rein said.
Click to expand...


So he surveyed a room full of video gaming press to see who only has a Gamecube? Talk about a biased survey! :roll:

As far as professionalism, you can still get your message out there without resorting to childish attacks such as:

"Don't kid yourself - you're going to see more gimmicky, crappy, cheap, I-wish-I-hadn't-bought-it gimmick games based around that controller than you can ever possibly imagine.
Click to expand...

or

"I've heard EA and Activision make absolutely ridiculous statements about, 'Oh, it's going to take 30 million dollars to make a game and we need 300 people - that's just a bunch of bullsh--.
Click to expand...
 
I have owned at one point every nintendo made system...but some of these arguments being thrown are flat out crazy....some people think it is a great thing while some think otherwise....and I don't know why the ds vs psp arguement came up...but isn't the ds only kicking the psp ass in japan...I have both systems and both are great in there own right...but the ds for me was useless for months...I don't enjoy the kirby stuff, but that is my tastes...I love nintendogs, trauma center and the new castlevania...but the ds has been out for just about a year, and I didn't buy a game for it since I got the system last year untill nintendogs came out...the psp has been horrible for games, much like the ds was for months...but they had burnout on it which is great, socom 3, battlefront 2 come soon as does condemmed...and I am pretty sure they have a bunch of rpg coming to it that will satisfy the japanese market...I wouldn't say that the battle is over, nintendo has had it out for just about a year, lets talk again in early march....I bet that they will be close and they will be battling it out....and that is what is best for gamers, as the companies need to actually compete to get better games out to the public
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You have wayyyyyyyyy too much free time on your hands.[/QUOTE]

Fanboys always have too much time on thier hands
 
Everyone is forgetting the BIGGEST FACTOR... Name me ONE SINGLE PERSON that bought a Gamecube for a FPS! Who gives a shit if it will or wont be good for FPS?! That's what you have the 360 for. Nintendo is always innovating and i love it!
 
[quote name='Deadpool']Everyone is forgetting the BIGGEST FACTOR... Name me ONE SINGLE PERSON that bought a Gamecube for a FPS! Who gives a shit if it will or wont be good for FPS?! That's what you have the 360 for. Nintendo is always innovating and i love it![/QUOTE]
Well, I suppose it depends how loose your definition of FPS is, if it is not too strict than it could include both Metroid Primes.
 
Well, he is right about a few things (maybe less), eventhough he is obviously biased towards MS.

There will probably be a lot of games that are gimmicky. The games will probably not be more or less crappy than games for other systems. So, I really don't see his point.

I would also agree that generally that I haven't known personally or talked to many people online that only own a GameCube, but I really didn't see his point. Nintendo's stance is to be a companion system with the Revolution anyways, so if that is the target market then it doesn't really matter if people own just a Revolution or not. I think he was trying to say that Nintendo will put out its regular great games for the Revolution using the controller, but everyone else will probably fuck it up? If that was his point then he totally blew it because it's too hard to read into.

The most important point to me is the rising game costs. Games should cost more than they did before for a variety of reasons, but there comes a point that costs need to be controlled to a degree. Hollywood doesn't do a good job of regulating itself, and I really hope that the videogame industry doesn't fall into a similar pitfall in the coming years.

Anyways, it's hard to weed through the muck to find anything relevant from that interview, but I think there are a couple of good points in there.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Even if you didn't make it arguing for 5 pages about a game controller online is beyond stupid.[/QUOTE]

Why are you here, then? Does that mean you're being stupid too?
 
[quote name='opportunity777']I would also agree that generally that I haven't known personally or talked to many people online that only own a GameCube, but I really didn't see his point. Nintendo's stance is to be a companion system with the Revolution anyways, so if that is the target market then it doesn't really matter if people own just a Revolution or not.[/QUOTE]
His point is this. If you're a 3rd party developer, and the Revolution is a "companion" system, why should you bring multiplatform titles to it if most of the installed base owns another system, and why should you develop an exclusive title for it, when most of their installed base owns another system, and the other systems have a much larger audience anyway?

The answer to this would be that Nintendo isn't really trying to be a companion system per se, not that they mind being a 2nd system for some people, but they're targeting a completely different audience than Sony or MS, and the advantage for 3rd parties would be the ability to target this different audience with games that wouldn't necessarily sell as well to a mainstream audience. It won't be easy, but I think they can pull it off. Nintendo knows what they're doing, for the most part.
 
That Epic VP lost me as soon as he held up the 360 controller and said is was fine for playing FPS games. Controllers SUCK for playing FPS's. Even if your great at Halo2, your great at a control system that is inherently inferior to KB & Mouse. Take the Halo2 world champ, and then take your average KB & Mouse player and watch the kb & mouse guy smoke the Halo champ with his clumsy input device.

At least nintendo is trying something different. I firmly believe that their controller will work way better for FPS games than current console controllers. Maybe not as well as kb & mouse, but I doubt anything ever willl. And I am not a Nintendo fanboy, I own all 3 consoles. I dont care if they are #1 or not, as long as they are around. Even if you love Xbox and Microsoft, why would you want Nintendo to fail? Arent competition and choice good things? If fanboys had their way we all be playing one game system, eating McDonalds, Drinking Coke and Starbucks, and playing online using AOL... sheesh.

As for dopey Epic VP guy... who cares what he thinks? He doesnt even make Unreal or UT, or Gears of War, Cliffy B does.
 
The more that I think about his comments, the more I think, "lack of creativity". Do we just get so used to how things are played with normal controllers that we shove aside a new way of playing that might bring about something creative and fun? He's right...the current controllers and the 360 controller is "just fine" for playing games, but why stop and be content with "just fine".

It's nice to see the Revolution head off in a new direction. Controls were "just fine" ten years ago with the D-pad. The analog stick came about and it's now a defacto standard in control. Who's to say this won't lead to another breakthrough?
 
[quote name='shipwreck']There are an incredible amount of companies licensing Epic's game engines, so I think the gameplay will be fine. They make very solid engines and good games. Seriously, why do Nintendo fans care what Epic says about the system anyway. I don't believe Epic even made a game for the GameCube, so this really doesn't make any difference what-so-ever.[/QUOTE]
That's why I don't care so much...I'd rather have a new Suda51 game than whatever Epic has to offer. Overall, the two systems are appealing to two different sets of gamers, people who like new ideas, and losers who like stupid rehashes with moderately better graphics (j/k ;)).
I thought the whole thing was pretty funny....like how he whipped out his Xbox for no apparent reason....and how he wouldn't let anyone else talk...and how much he talked about graphics being the ONLY thing that matters. I understand that graphics are more or less important to different people...but he just seemed ignorant. I also thought it was funny how he called the Xbox controller "perfect"...
 
Someone mentioned the shell but here goes ign's mock up.

understanding-the-revolution-controller-20050916041026412-000.jpg


And since this is IGN's mock up Nintendo can always change things like adding a 4th shoulder button or going back to the classic SNES face button layout, make the d-pad bigger, add buttons under the analogs, make it bluetooth compatiable so you could have a bluetooth headset, etc. And then you have the remote plugged right in. That gives you access to a couple of extra buttons (b and a). I don't think the remote's d-pad, giant A, or Z button on the underside of the remote, will get a lot of use if you are using this shell but it could be used on special occasions. Don't forget since the remote is plugged in you still have access to all of the 3d movements that the remote offers. A set-up like this blows away what Microsoft (the remote also has player indicator lights on it) or (currently) Sony is doing with their new controllers.

For instance. Let's say it's a new Panzer Dragoon (if you aren't familar with PD go check it out for Xbox: It's an on the rails 3d shooter) game but the rail system is gone. Totally done away with.

You'll be able to control the dragoon, the rider, and the aiming of the character with this set up.

Moving the controller and remote around you'll control the flight of the dragoon. Moving the left analog around moves the rider into different positions on the dragoon. Moving the right analog around changes where the rider will aim his/her gun. Shoulder buttons can be action buttons like for jumping off the dragoon (at which point the dragon would be cpu controlled until you called it back or maybe you could still control it), shooting and ducking or to make the dragoon stop mid flight and hover and that could work as a strafing modifier. Face buttons could be to change weapons or mutate the dragon into different forms. And then the d-pad could be used to change views. And you still have the b and a buttons in between the d-pad and analog to use for what ever. Take screenshots. *shrugs*

OR even crazier than that. Have two remotes but one with a shell on. Give the shelless remote (then the b and a and big a and d-pad and Z button would have a purpose now) to a friend and then they would control the dragoon and you would just control the rider? Imagine that online or with the person right next to you. You'd have to communicate on where to go and what tactics to use. And speaking of online you could have great big battles with friends that would span both the skies and the ground. Be awesome to have a friend in Japan controlling a dragon and then you telling him to come swoop you up off the ground during a battle.

There are so many great possiblities with a control set-up like this.

Or what about in Tony Hawk. Typical game play accept you would wave the controller around to put up graffiti or something. I don't know.

Duck Hunt!!!
controller-concepts-gun-games-20050926045917714-000.jpg


I know the duck hunt "light" gun is a bit gimmicky. I just wanted to show that for fun. And yes that is an analog stick on the handle of the gun. Much like the Dreamcast light gun which had a d-pad on the back of the handle.

It's assumed that the analog attachment will come with the Rev. And maybe Nintendo will go a step further and throw in a wave-bird like shell or some other traditional controller shell. And with that said there is no reason for that Epic games guy or any other developer to fucking whine about it alienating developers. Only way in which I think this system will alienate developers is with the weaker graphics. Other than tha you can still pull off the same experience that you'll recieve on the PS3 or 360.


I like this charging cradle idea.
controller-concepts-charge-cradle-20051004031303249-000.jpg



I for on think that change is good. Especially with the amount of options available to the developers to make things a little more comfortable to them.

I mean why is that Epic Games guy so afraid of this machine? I think if I were a developer I'd be excited to try something new. Nintendo isn't asking for developers to make super pretty games. Like for instance...

Have any of you heard of Rag Doll Kung Fu? It's a game where you use the mouse to control your puppet like kung fu fighter. You click in the air to make him jump or you drag his feet into someone's face, etc (it's on Valve's Steam as a 3rd party game for 14.95 + tax). There was basiclly one guy who worked on it as a pet project (he worked at Lionhead studios).

Anyway, something short and sweet like this could be made. Nothing that would cost the developer/publisher millions to make.
 
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