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UncleBob

UncleBob

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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...-violates-civil-rights_-1006723-99801389.html

Basically, a few schools tested an OPTIONAL program where students could receive their text books via Kindle. Students were free to opt-in or opt-out.

Obviously, using an e-reader for text books has several advantages (I would have *loved* this in college, not having to carry around about 75 pounds of books around campus).

But, apparently, there was one disadvantage - blind people could not use the Kindle.

The Civil Rights Division informed the schools they were under investigation. In subsequent talks, the Justice Department demanded the universities stop distributing the Kindle; if blind students couldn't use the device, then nobody could.
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So, despite the fact it was a completely optional test program, schools were forced to stop any programs testing the use of the Kindle in place of text books.

Awesome.
 
...I'm kind of siding with Bob on this. Americans With Disabilities act is over-cited and abused. Basically, this demands taking anything that blind people (or deaf, etc...) can't utilize fully out of the environment.

That's unfair to people without the disabilities. In many ways, it seems to drag down the capable to the level of the disabled.
 
This seems a bit ridiculous, whats next?

"Dead people can't drive cars, so everyone must stop driving so we don't discriminate against the Dead. They're as much a part of society as anyone else"

Yes that's a terrible example, but looking at the OP we're not that far away from it.
 
[quote name='benjamouth']This seems a bit ridiculous, whats next?

"Dead people can't drive cars, so everyone must stop driving so we don't discriminate against the Dead. They're as much a part of society as anyone else"

Yes that's a terrible example, but looking at the OP we're not that far away from it.[/QUOTE]

Well blind people can't use cars, can they? Ban them!
 
Wait... they're complaining that blind people can't use the Kindles? Do these children have Daredevil-like powers that they can read whatever is on the page just by touch?
 
This article is a little more balanced:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news...impaired-most-e-readers-barely-measure-up.ars

One thing I find abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous about the article cited by UB is this paragraph:

One obvious solution to the problem, of course, was to fix the Kindle. Early on, Amazon told federation officials it would apply text-to-speech technology to the Kindle's menu and function keys. And sure enough, last week the company announced a new generation of Kindles that are fully accessible to the blind. While the Justice Department was making demands, and Perez was making speeches, the market was working.
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Booo big government. All hail the invisible hand of the market! :rofl:

Compare to this:

E-readers are becoming increasingly popular, due in part to plummeting prices and the growing availability of books in various digital formats. One area where these companies are notoriously weak, however, is accessibility—and we're not talking about the Internet kind.

One of the big strengths of digital books should be their easy support for technologies like screen reading and large print, tools that can help the visually impaired. But as it turns out, such progress has been slow and unsatisfactory for many users.
...
The Kindle has long been able to read books aloud (although Amazon has waffled a bit on its commitment to bringing text to speech to all Kindle books thanks to some copyright complaints), but detractors have been quick to point out that the device still can't read aloud menu items—a must for visually impaired users. This is soon to change with the newest version of the Kindle arriving later in August, as Amazon has finally enabled the device to read aloud content listings on the home screen, in item descriptions, and on all menus.
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If you think these changes had anything to do with winning market share, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. It's all about meeting regs. If a company isn't willing to make the easy changes early on, sometimes they need a little tough love.

Don't worry kids, your Kindles will be here next year. Ready for everyone.
 
Yeah I recall hearing that story a while back. Seems silly and a non-issue unless there were textbooks ONLY available on Kindle. Otherwise the blind students could get the same books in braille versions, just like the do with text books now (or have disability services read the books onto tape etc.).

That said, I love my Kindle, but it would suck for academic purposes and I don't use it at all for my work related reading. Screen is too small, slow and the annotation features are very limited. Give me an iPad like tablet with a screen and inch or two bigger than the ipad and a stylus for highlight and jotting notes in the margin and I'd be sold.
 
Not trying to sound to crass but why should the majority be punished because of the few? This is a great idea because the cost of school books is disgusting, not to mention kids shouldnt need 65lbs of books to lug around and switch between constantly, plus how many millions of tons of paper would be saved each year by doing this?

This is one of the reasons why america blows. Were pussies, plain and simply. Everyone is so worried about making everyone feel all safe, happy, fuzzy, warm and cozy that we will actually screw ourselves over and inconvience millions. If we tried this shit a hundred years ago we would all be dead because we couldnt survive. America is a great country but we are to afraid of offending someone we will things are detrimental to the whole society in order to avoid bothering someone.

And what kills me is the government pulls this shit under the banner of being equal and just to all, but they still do shit like have forms where they ask you what race you are. What race are we? Were the god damn human race thats what. Or they allow things like a black college fund to be legal where you get money for college based on your skin color. But because Im not blind I shouldnt be able to get my school books on a kindle? How the hell is that shit fair to anyone?

Besides, we allow books for people with sight and brail ones for blind people. Why not kindle for sighted people and brail books for blind people? I dont see a difference. Its not like anyone said "Ok were going with all kindle and getting rid of all books so fuck you blind fucks, you dont get shit". Morons.
 
I have to agree with you Gargus. Everybody here is such a big pussy and worries about being 'politically correct', that we're just fucking ourselves. What we need is a good leader who isn't afraid to tell somebody to go take a flying leap. (Coincidentally, this is exactly the type of guy I need for a boss, since our current boss is a pussy.)
 
It's just one overzealous DOJ chief. I don't see how you can take away that we're "pussies".

If anything we need more regulations. For examples I point to the Massey mining debacle culminating in a collapse that left 29 dead, the BP Deep Horizon oil spill, and our lax Wall Street regulation that led to a recent near brush with severe economic depression. All of these examples wreaked an incredible amount of havok.

Honestly in the real world it's not a big deal that a few students have to wait a few extra months to get some free kindles. The kindles weren't measuring up to a government standard that by all accounts is easily obtainable, and Amazon finally got called on this. Frankly it was pretty stupid of Amazon not to fix up their product sooner.
 
Question: Does it fall under "reasonable accommodation" to force a school to stop a test program and re-buy the equipment once the manufacturer has redesigned it - even more so when "Blind Accessible" (i.e.: Braille) books are available to any students and the equipment was not required at any point?
 
[quote name='gargus']And what kills me is the government pulls this shit under the banner of being equal and just to all[/QUOTE]
Problem is, making everyone equal is NOT just to all. Because the only way to make everyone equal is to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator, as that is the mark everyone can reach. Not the other way around. So equalizing everyone punishes everyone above that lowest mark.
 
I had to bring it up because it was going to come anyway but its just like the whole brail on drive through ATM's, if the blind can't use a ATM while driving then no one can.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Jesus christ, how many different subjects can cause gargus to go into the exact same fucking rant?[/QUOTE]

It's like a new version of Godwin's law!

Oh, and on the topic: it's fucking ridiculous, but so are most things the government does today. Like shutting some kid's lemonade stand down.
 
[quote name='phantasyx']I had to bring it up because it was going to come anyway but its just like the whole brail on drive through ATM's, if the blind can't use a ATM while driving then no one can.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, most drive-up ATMs are also walk-up ATMs...
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Question: Does it fall under "reasonable accommodation" to force a school to stop a test program and re-buy the equipment once the manufacturer has redesigned it - even more so when "Blind Accessible" (i.e.: Braille) books are available to any students and the equipment was not required at any point?[/QUOTE]

Good question for a lawyer. However if I was the school treasurer you can believe that whatever idiot employee greenlighted this program without verifying the accessability of these devices would face consequences.

[quote name='guinaevere']Problem is, making everyone equal is NOT just to all. Because the only way to make everyone equal is to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator, as that is the mark everyone can reach. Not the other way around. So equalizing everyone punishes everyone above that lowest mark.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying blind people are somehow akin to the lowest common denominator? That's pretty insulting. Listen, it's a reasonable standard, it was very doable from the start, and the new Kindles are apparently up to code. Having these extra features costs a pittance and it's not hurting anyone's user experience, only enhancing it. Could the govt have been more reasonable? Maybe, but from what I've seen corporations don't make accomodations for the less fortunate until their feet are held to the fire. Asking nicely, or hoping the invisible hand of the market will act fairly, well it just doesn't work.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Jesus christ, how many different subjects can cause gargus to go into the exact same fucking rant?[/QUOTE]

Exactly as many that apply to what I think, thats how many. And given the subject matter of this paticullar section of the forum, a lot.

So, if your done trying to act like a horses ass for absolutely no reason at all other than just be a dickhole to get your post count up do you think you could actually say something thats on topic or furthers the conversation?

And by the way its not the exact same thing, if it were it would just be a copy and paste of the same thing. But if you actually read them (Im guessing you just skim and see what you want judging by your unwarranted remark) you would see they are similar in nature with some reoccuring phrasing but not the same thing as they apply to each thread I respond to. If you dont like it then just ignore me instead of getting your panties in a twist and acting like a 9 year old, if you cant manage that then I guess to get to eat a dick space cowboy.
 
[quote name='camoor']Good question for a lawyer. However if I was the school treasurer you can believe that whatever idiot employee greenlighted this program without verifying the accessability of these devices would face consequences.[/QUOTE]

Would you also like whatever idiots greenlight the use of books to face consequences?

I mean, yeah, there are braille books available, but obviously, those aren't good enough...
 
[quote name='camoor']Are you saying blind people are somehow akin to the lowest common denominator? That's pretty insulting.[/QUOTE]Really? If you want to make me sound like I'm saying differently-abled people are less important or lower than healthy people, then you won't get my point.

When I said lowest common denominator, the example I was thinking of was school. Even when I was in public school a hundred or so years ago, classes were aimed at passing the idiots who gossiped during class, never did an assignment, and couldn't think themselves out of a paper bag. This punished the smart kids who could have spent those years learning more. This punished me, who, even though I'm not terribly smart and I have a learning disability, I tried hard and wanted to be taught more than the same brain dead lessons year after year.


Now to the example of the Kindle experiment being denied owing to it being unfair to the blind. In this instance, the lack of sight by the blind is punishing the majority of people who have their vision.

How does punishing a person who has their vision help a blind person? It doesn't. It never will.

Hopefully this insanity will work itself out with Kindle working as an audio reader. But even if the kindle doesn't work as an audio reader, the Kindle experiment should go forward.
 
[quote name='guinaevere']Really?[/QUOTE]

You don't hang out on the vs. forum often, do you?

It's a common tactic here. Take someone else's post, change it, then argue with the new version you just made up.
 
[quote name='guinaevere']Really? If you want to make me sound like I'm saying differently-abled people are less important or lower than healthy people, then you won't get my point.

When I said lowest common denominator, the example I was thinking of was school. Even when I was in public school a hundred or so years ago, classes were aimed at passing the idiots who gossiped during class, never did an assignment, and couldn't think themselves out of a paper bag. This punished the smart kids who could have spent those years learning more. This punished me, who, even though I'm not terribly smart and I have a learning disability, I tried hard and wanted to be taught more than the same brain dead lessons year after year.[/QUOTE]

I'd think you'd have more sympathy for a blind person. They didn't choose their disability either.

[quote name='guinaevere']Now to the example of the Kindle experiment being denied owing to it being unfair to the blind. In this instance, the lack of sight by the blind is punishing the majority of people who have their vision.

How does punishing a person who has their vision help a blind person? It doesn't. It never will.

Hopefully this insanity will work itself out with Kindle working as an audio reader. But even if the kindle doesn't work as an audio reader, the Kindle experiment should go forward.[/QUOTE]

A few kids had to wait a few months to get free kindles. True insanity. This is blasphemy, this is madness!

Also read the ars technica article. It's a more balanced account of what happened. There was an easy fix, the govt took advantage of this program to hold Amazon's feet to the fire, and Amazon came through with the fix.

Was the DOJ lawyer a little overzealous? Perhaps. But in the end we got a happy ending and a win for accessability, and all that happened in the meantime was an ambitious college program got delayed a few months.
 
[quote name='camoor']Also read the ars technica article. It's a more balanced account of what happened.[/quote]

I like the part where your article uses the word "required" twice when, in fact, both major universities involved with the lawsuit made the program optional. To be fair, one of those uses was a direct quote, but at no point in the article did they bother to mention that the use of the Kindle was never "required".

Was the DOJ lawyer a little overzealous? Perhaps. But in the end we got a happy ending and a win for accessability, and all that happened in the meantime was an ambitious college program got delayed a few months.
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And yet I'm left to wonder how many programs in the future will be delayed or not even attempted because some idiot employee is too afraid of getting in trouble with the school treasurer - or worse - the Federal Government.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']And yet I'm left to wonder how many programs in the future will be delayed or not even attempted because some idiot employee is too afraid of getting in trouble with the school treasurer - or worse - the Federal Government.[/QUOTE]

All that happens is a little checkbox gets placed on forms that states "Does this program meet govt regualtions on accessability, and if not did we obtain a waiver". And then uni lawyer Steve sends out an email to everyone telling them that they can't blow this one off anymore, because the govt got some balls and set an example.

I would have thought that sympathy for those born with sight issues was a given. I would have thought that the desire not to leave them behind in the digital divide was a given. It can't be easy to live every single day with that condition.

I'm all ears to any solution that doesn't leave the blind behind. However if your idea of an alternative solution to government regulations is hoping that the invisible hand of the market will fix accessability issues, I'm afraid that isn't much of a solution at all.
 
1. School gives out technology that can't be used by ADA protected students.
2. Feds get pissy and throw their weight around.
3. Technology makers move immediately to fix issue.
4. Everyone can now use the technology.

I don't see (haha) the problem here.

edit: After reading a story slamming the feds for doing it, I think I found the problem.
Some officials at the schools were puzzled. Given the speed of technological development and the reality of competition among technology companies -- Apple products were already fully text-to-speech capable -- wasn't this a problem the market would solve?

That's not Perez's way. To him, keeping the Kindle out of sighted students' hands underscored "the importance of full and equal educational opportunities for everyone."

In early 2010, after most of the courses were over, the Justice Department reached agreement with the schools, and the federation settled with Arizona State. The schools denied violating the ADA but agreed that until the Kindle was fully accessible, nobody would use it.
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There are alternatives that comply with ADA requirements. The schools knowingly chose technology that couldn't be used OVER technology that could be adapted. That's a no-no.

The reason this is such a big deal from the fed's point of view is because colleges take a metric assload of money from the Feds every year. Strict requirements come with that money, including 100% compliance with ADA regs down to the letter. They could tell the feds to piss off, but then they'd have to stop suckling at the teat. To me, this is a power of the purse issue.
 
See step #2.

This was an optional program for the students. OPTIONAL.

Should universities take away all optional programs that ADA protected students cannot participate in?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']See step #2.

This was an optional program for the students. OPTIONAL.

Should universities take away all optional programs that ADA protected students cannot participate in?[/QUOTE]
Read the ADA dude. Reasonable accommodation where reasonable accommodation can be made. This clearly doesn't meet that standard.

Public schools:
Title II prohibits disability discrimination by all public entities at the local (i.e. school district, municipal, city, county) and state level. Public entities must comply with Title II regulations by the U.S. Department of Justice. These regulations cover access to all programs and services offered by the entity. Access includes physical access described in the ADA Standards for Accessible Design and programmatic access that might be obstructed by discriminatory policies or procedures of the entity.
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Private schools:
Under Title III, no individual may be discriminated against on the basis of disability with regards to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation. "Public accommodations" include most places of lodging (such as inns and hotels), recreation, transportation, education, and dining, along with stores, care providers, and places of public displays, among other things.
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We're not talking about rebuilding the Great Wall of China to accommodate here. We're talking about the specific choice of technology. We're not moving mountains. And the thing is a POS for the purpose anyway.
"With respect to university courses, the Amazon Kindle is not ready for prime time," said Ted Humphrey, a professor at Arizona State University who tested the device in a pilot program run at seven universities over the past year. He told The Arizona Republic that students reported difficulty underlining passages and taking notes in the electronic text. Other schools reported that many students abandoned using the devices after a few weeks.

"Student and faculty really wanted to like the Kindle, but they kept coming across challenges," said James Stenerson, executive director at Pace University's Center for Teaching, Learning and Technology, who was quoted by the Republic. Pace also participated in Amazon's pilot program.
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“I hate to sound like a Luddite, but this technology is a poor excuse of an academic tool,” said Aaron Horvath ’10, a student in Civil Society and Public Policy. “It’s clunky, slow and a real pain to operate.”
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At the University of Virginia, as many as 80 percent of MBA students who participated in Amazon's pilot program said they would not recommend the Kindle DX as a classroom study aid (though more than 90 percent liked it for pleasure reading).

At Princeton University and Portland-based Reed College, a small liberal-arts institution, students praised the Kindle for its long battery life, paper savings and portability. They then complained they couldn't scribble notes in the margins, easily highlight passages or fully appreciate color charts and graphics.

"You don't read textbooks in the same linear way as a novel," said Roesner, 23, a graduate student in computer science and engineering. "You have to flip back and forth between pages, and the Kindle is too slow for that. Also, the bookmarking function is buggy."
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So it's not like we're talking about the perfect tool screwed up by the damned ADA.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']Read the ADA dude. Reasonable accommodation where reasonable accommodation can be made. This clearly doesn't meet that standard.

Conservative/libertarian speedracer here reminding our liberal scumbags on this board that they can do whatever they want if they choose not to take federal money.[/QUOTE]

Back to my earlier question - was it "reasonable" to force the school to stop an optional program until the manufacturer redesigned the equipment, then asking the school to re-buy equipment?

And do you really think it matters if the school was using federal money or not?

If I open my own business with my own money that doesn't have a properly inclined ramp going up to the door, I'm okay, right?
 
[quote name='gargus']Exactly as many that apply to what I think, thats how many. And given the subject matter of this paticullar section of the forum, a lot.

So, if your done trying to act like a horses ass for absolutely no reason at all other than just be a dickhole to get your post count up do you think you could actually say something thats on topic or furthers the conversation?

And by the way its not the exact same thing, if it were it would just be a copy and paste of the same thing. But if you actually read them (Im guessing you just skim and see what you want judging by your unwarranted remark) you would see they are similar in nature with some reoccuring phrasing but not the same thing as they apply to each thread I respond to. If you dont like it then just ignore me instead of getting your panties in a twist and acting like a 9 year old, if you cant manage that then I guess to get to eat a dick space cowboy.[/QUOTE]

lol

Your "pussy" rants would be more useful if they had any substance or basis in history/reality. You constantly complain about the same things while hearkening back to some random time in the past that was nothing like you think it was. A hundred years ago (which would be 1910, btw, if you weren't really doing the math) people had been fighting for decades for various protective legislation so that they could become more "pussified" as you would say. That's why they loved the labor unions. Though if you want to be specific they probably weren't really trying too hard to include blind people since at the time women and minorities weren't really included either.

To say something more on topic - it sounds stupid and shouldn't have happened, that article was written to be a shitty free-market parable, and while it in no way has any greater meaning about the condition of society, it does make the current head of the civil rights division look like kind of a dick.
 
WHERE WAS THE DISCRIMINATION?

In that blind people could not use the Kindle?
Blind people cannot use regular books either.

That's why they have to offer braille books (or books on tape) as an alternative. The same thing that would be offered with this program.

There was no "discrimination" beyond what was already in place.

And, again, optional program. No classes required the use of the Kindle.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Back to my earlier question - was it "reasonable" to force the school to stop an optional program until the manufacturer redesigned the equipment, then asking the school to re-buy equipment?[/quote]
The schools didn't buy them. It was a pilot program. So yes.
And do you really think it matters if the school was using federal money or not?
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Power of the purse. I'd think you'd appreciate that.
If I open my own business with my own money that doesn't have a properly inclined ramp going up to the door, I'm okay, right?
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If it was created before ADA requirements, no one has a problem with that. When you open your business, you sign paperwork saying that you will follow all regulations. I signed them when I opened my business. You didn't?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']WHERE WAS THE DISCRIMINATION?

In that blind people could not use the Kindle?
Blind people cannot use regular books either.

That's why they have to offer braille books (or books on tape) as an alternative. The same thing that would be offered with this program.

There was no "discrimination" beyond what was already in place.

And, again, optional program. No classes required the use of the Kindle.[/QUOTE]
Imma say this again slowly since you haven't even pretended to try to read important points of the ADA.

If you are using a standard that was in place before the ADA was signed (like books), you are not required to change to meet ADA. If you change that standard, you must comply.

To use your business analogy above. If it was there before ADA, no ramp needed. If you change the building, you need to bring it up to ADA compliance. Change = compliance with new (old now) regulation. You're bitching that we allow things to be grandfathered instead of forcing everyone everywhere to immediately comply. Does. Not. Compute.

edit: After reading the requirements portion of the ADA, I was wrong. It is not based on federal dollars. It is compulsory. So no, they don't even have that option.
 
I am thinking the Justice Department was a little preemptive in this, rather than banning the use of kindles at all, why not require them to bring the devices up to speed while students test them, and then roll the whole program out sooner, which would be better for everyone.

The way they did it is just so....wrong. Its like telling a student not to use the stairs because the elevator wasn't installed yet for handicapped people.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I am thinking the Justice Department was a little preemptive in this, rather than banning the use of kindles at all, why not require them to bring the devices up to speed while students test them, and then roll the whole program out sooner, which would be better for everyone.

The way they did it is just so....wrong. Its like telling a student not to use the stairs because the elevator wasn't installed yet for handicapped people.[/QUOTE]

My guess is that the justice dept guy is new and he wanted to set an example.

I agree that on the surface it sounds like the justice dept was a little overzealous. But they were well within their legal rights, this program was violating federal regs in a clear and demonstrable way, and there was an easy fix which has now been made.

For all I know, the Justice dept was being given the run-around and they got tired of it. I am not a lawyer, but from my business dealings I know that asking 'pretty please with a cherry on top' is not always an effective strategy.
 
Well, seeing that the Kindle's were free to students, I can see the issue. Blind students were excluded from the option of participating since the device didn't have voice commands, braille buttons etc. So while I think the response was over zealous, I can see the ADA issue since the devices were free rather than paid for buy students in lieu of paying for paper books.

Besides that, even being a Kindle owner, Universities really shouldn't take free Kindle's IMO as it's just Amazon trying to get more people locked into their e-book DRM scheme.

And as I said eariler, e-ink devices and e-books currently aren't very well suited for academic use. They have no set page numbers as you can change fonts (though at least the Kindle has fixed locations that us instructors could have people jump to) are slow to flip through, don't have good highlighting and mark up options etc.
 
I totally agree that lawyer dude got all crazy. But man, ADA is one of the things that'll get em all crazy. You mess with it or Title IX and they're gonna get a case of the ass with you.
 
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