Evolution and Global Warming

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[quote name='nytimes.com']Critics of the teaching of evolution in the nation’s classrooms are gaining ground in some states by linking the issue to global warming, arguing that dissenting views on both scientific subjects should be taught in public schools.
In Kentucky, a bill recently introduced in the Legislature would encourage teachers to discuss “the advantages and disadvantages of scientific theories,” including “evolution, the origins of life, global warming and human cloning.”

The bill, which has yet to be voted on, is patterned on even more aggressive efforts in other states to fuse such issues. In Louisiana, a law passed in 2008 says the state board of education may assist teachers in promoting “critical thinking” on all of those subjects.

Last year, the Texas Board of Education adopted language requiring that teachers present all sides of the evidence on evolution and global warming.

Oklahoma introduced a bill with similar goals in 2009, although it was not enacted.

The linkage of evolution and global warming is partly a legal strategy: courts have found that singling out evolution for criticism in public schools is a violation of the separation of church and state. By insisting that global warming also be debated, deniers of evolution can argue that they are simply championing academic freedom in general.

Yet they are also capitalizing on rising public resistance in some quarters to accepting the science of global warming, particularly among political conservatives who oppose efforts to rein in emissions of greenhouse gases.

In South Dakota, a resolution calling for the “balanced teaching of global warming in public schools” passed the Legislature this week.

“Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant,” the resolution said, “but rather a highly beneficial ingredient for all plant life.”

The measure made no mention of evolution, but opponents of efforts to dilute the teaching of evolution noted that the language was similar to that of bills in other states that had included both. The vote split almost entirely along partisan lines in both houses, with Republican voting for it and Democrats voting against.

For mainstream scientists, there is no credible challenge to evolutionary theory. They oppose the teaching of alternative views like intelligent design, the proposition that life is so complex that it must be the design of an intelligent being. And there is wide agreement among scientists that global warming is occurring and that human activities are probably driving it. Yet many conservative evangelical Christians assert that both are examples of scientists’ overstepping their bounds.

John G. West, a senior fellow with the Discovery Institute in Seattle, a group that advocates intelligent design and has led the campaign for teaching critiques of evolution in the schools, said that the institute was not specifically promoting opposition to accepted science on climate change. Still, Mr. West said, he is sympathetic to that cause.

“There is a lot of similar dogmatism on this issue,” he said, “with scientists being persecuted for findings that are not in keeping with the orthodoxy. We think analyzing and evaluating scientific evidence is a good thing, whether that is about global warming or evolution.”

Lawrence M. Krauss, a physicist who directs the Origins Initiative at Arizona State University and has spoken against efforts to water down the teaching of evolution to school boards in Texas and Ohio, described the move toward climate-change skepticism as a predictable offshoot of creationism.

“Wherever there is a battle over evolution now,” he said, “there is a secondary battle to diminish other hot-button issues like Big Bang and, increasingly, climate change. It is all about casting doubt on the veracity of science — to say it is just one view of the world, just another story, no better or more valid than fundamentalism.”

Not all evangelical Christians reject the notion of climate change, of course. There is a budding green evangelical movement in the country driven partly by a belief that because God created the earth, humans are obligated to care for it.

Yet there is little doubt that the skepticism about global warming resonates more strongly among conservatives, and Christian conservatives in particular. A survey published in October by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press found that white evangelical Protestants were among those least likely to believe that there was “solid evidence” that the Earth was warming because of human activity.

Only 23 percent of those surveyed accepted that idea, compared with 36 percent of the American population as a whole.

The Rev. Jim Ball, senior director for climate programs at the Evangelical Environmental Network, a group with members who accept the science of global warming, said that many of the deniers feel that “it is hubris to think that human beings could disrupt something that God created.”
“This group already feels like scientists are attacking their faith and calling them idiots,” he said, “so they are likely to be skeptical” about global warming.

State Representative Tim Moore, a Republican who introduced the bill in the Kentucky Legislature, said he was motivated not by religion but by what he saw as a distortion of scientific knowledge.

“Our kids are being presented theories as though they are facts,” he said. “And with global warming especially, there has become a politically correct viewpoint among educational elites that is very different from sound science.”

The evolution curriculum has developed far more than instruction on climate change. It is almost universally required in biology classes, while the science of global warming, a newer topic, is taught more sporadically, depending on the interest of teachers and school planners.

But interest in making climate change a standard part of school curriculum is growing. Under President Obama, for example, the Climate Education Interagency Working Group, which represents more than a dozen federal agencies, is making a strong push toward “climate literacy” for teachers and students.

State Representative Don Kopp, a Republican who was the main sponsor of the South Dakota resolution, said he acted in part because “An Inconvenient Truth,” a documentary film on global warming starring Al Gore, was being shown in some public schools without a counterweight.

The legal incentive to pair global warming with evolution in curriculum battles stems in part from a 2005 ruling by a United States District Court judge in Atlanta that the Cobb County Board of Education, which had placed stickers on certain textbooks encouraging students to view evolution as only a theory, had violated First Amendment strictures on the separation of church and state.

Although the sticker was not overtly religious, the judge said, its use was unconstitutional because evolution alone was the target, which indicated that it was a religious issue.

After that, said Joshua Rosenau, a project director for the National Center for Science Education, he began noticing that attacks on climate change science were being packaged with criticism of evolution in curriculum initiatives.

He fears that even a few state-level victories could have an effect on what gets taught across the nation.

James D. Marston, director of the Texas regional office of the Environmental Defense Fund, said he worried that, given Texas’ size and centralized approval process, its decision on textbooks could have an outsize influence on how publishers prepare science content for the national market.

“If a textbook does not give enough deference to critics of climate change — or does not say that there is real scientific debate, when in fact there is little to none — they will have a basis for turning it down,” Mr. Marston said of the Texas board. “And that is scary for what our children will learn everywhere.” [/quote]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/science/earth/04climate.html?hpw

Basically, Christians are bundling their attack on evolution with the one on global warming in an attempt to legitimize their standpoint on both topics. There's really no valid argument here, as exemplified by my favorite mainstay argument:
“Our kids are being presented theories as though they are facts,” said State Representative Tim Moore of Kentucky
 
At the risk of sounding like an idiot,...

The article says that singling out evolution for criticism is a violation of church and state. What law or amendment is violated?
 
Because only religious people object to teaching evolution, and only for religious reasons (there aren't any other ones).
 
I'm all for showing that science has been wrong in the past (eg spontaneous generation) and that scientific discovery is a process that occurs over time, and that as new evidence is presented, it is something that is reexamined. However, "intelligent design" is not evidence against evolution as it is not something that can be examined and studied with the scientific method.
 
Evolution and Global Warming deniers often use the same tactics and are many times one and the same.

So not surprising really.
 
When was the most recent scientific paradigm shift? Mendelian inheritance in the early 20th? Relativity? Uncertainty principle?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Because only religious people object to teaching evolution, and only for religious reasons (there aren't any other ones).[/QUOTE]
if this is in response to my question, that does not answer it. I wanna know exactly what laws the complaints violate.
 
The first amendment? Complaints don't violate laws, but their reasoning and what they intend to teach in its place does.
 
I would support this except I hate that it singles out specific theories. i also don't like the "advantages and disadvantages" wording... but i would definitely support criticizing all scientific theory, encouraging teachers to inspire their students to be skeptical of everything around them. they should be trained to be skeptics. then they'll be skeptical of evolution and the bible, along with everything else in life, and our nation will be better for it. tell them raptor jesus is their lord and savior in K - 6, then in grade 7, say "hey kids, remember raptor jesus? he's fake. super fake. made him up." then their minds will be blown and they'll be like "oh shit, if raptor jesus wasnt real, what if...? and they'd question everything in their lives from here on out. imagine how much a generation of 350,000,000 people in a capitalistic R&D country... we'd be on top of the world from this one change in our education, raptor jesus, raptor jesus can save us all
 
While it isn't specific to this case, the Supreme Court says:
For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.
 
I'm for kids being taught a variety of viewpoints and evidence to support them (or lack thereof) more than I'm for kids being taught current popular scientific consensus as fact.

That being said, I'm sure glad I am not a teacher in this pc climate.
 
Alright, are you for teaching kids in history class that some people say that the holocaust didn't happen, and then present the evidence they use to support that? Or perhaps that some people say that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot JFK, and then present their evidence?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Alright, are you for teaching kids in history class that some people say that the holocaust didn't happen, and then present the evidence they use to support that? Or perhaps that some people say that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot JFK, and then present their evidence?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't make it mandatory, but I wouldn't be bothered by it either.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm for kids being taught a variety of viewpoints and evidence to support them (or lack thereof) more than I'm for kids being taught current popular scientific consensus as fact.

That being said, I'm sure glad I am not a teacher in this pc climate.[/QUOTE]

If the other viewpoint is a religious text or based on a religious text, should it be given the same weight as a theory not based on a religious text?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Alright, are you for teaching kids in history class that some people say that the holocaust didn't happen, and then present the evidence they use to support that? Or perhaps that some people say that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot JFK, and then present their evidence?[/QUOTE]

Oooh, damn, now I'm on the side of creationists.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Alright, are you for teaching kids in history class that some people say that the holocaust didn't happen, and then present the evidence they use to support that? Or perhaps that some people say that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot JFK, and then present their evidence?[/QUOTE]
I think those are different types of things.
We have evidence to point towards or against the theory of evolution(depends on who you talk to), but no proof of which way is true.

We have proof the Holocaust and JFK assassination happened. Just talk to anyone who was there in Texas or talk to a Holocaust survivor.
True, you could teach that Lee Harvey Oswald MIGHT NOT have been the shooter, or might not have been the only shooter, or might have been in China that day. Those are theories. But the fact that JFK was shot, and the Holocaust happened, are historical facts.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If the other viewpoint is a religious text or based on a religious text, should it be given the same weight as a theory not based on a religious text?[/QUOTE]

That really depends on how you define "weight", and the more I think about it, "weight" is the real crux of this issue.

I'm not really happy with a two hour discourse on a theory appended with one statement of "Oh by the way, some in the minority think this and this without any real evidence. Class dismissed!"

I don't have a solid equation that would work for every subject for every class. That's kind of my point - I don't think there should be. Every class and subject is different. I remember being in classes where I wanted to learn more about certain things that the teacher didn't want to teach - I think that's kind of wrong.

I really can't speak to what weight each subject should be given. Does weight equate to time? Does it equate to seriousness in which the subject is taught? All I can say for sure is that I honestly find more value in learning about different viewpoints than learning only about the most popular.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If the other viewpoint is a religious text or based on a religious text, should it be given the same weight as a theory not based on a religious text?[/QUOTE]

I can honestly say that as a Christian(I'm a Youth Minister, no less) that I don't think Divine Creation should be TAUGHT in schools.
I simply think that evolution should be taught as the THEORY that it still is. There are plenty of scientists out there that are studying this subject that say there is proof against evolution. I think that should be explored with students.

Then at the end, if you simply wanted to appease the Religious folks screaming about it all, say that there are groups of people that believe we were created by a deity, and that if a student is interested in exploring those beliefs/theories, they could do so by talking to their parents or a minister of the religion of their choosing.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I wouldn't make it mandatory, but I wouldn't be bothered by it either.[/QUOTE]

Would it be unfair to present the people who say that the holocaust didn't happen or that JFK wasn't shot by Oswald and not also present the evidence that MLK Jr. wasn't shot by whoever that fucking guy was, that FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor, that Al Qaeda wasn't behind 9/11, that the Bush family and the royal family are in fact Reptilian aliens, I could go on.

[quote name='myl0r']I think those are different types of things.
We have evidence to point towards or against the theory of evolution(depends on who you talk to), but no proof of which way is true.

We have proof the Holocaust and JFK assassination happened. Just talk to anyone who was there in Texas or talk to a Holocaust survivor.
True, you could teach that Lee Harvey Oswald MIGHT NOT have been the shooter, or might not have been the only shooter, or might have been in China that day. Those are theories. But the fact that JFK was shot, and the Holocaust happened, are historical facts.[/QUOTE]

You think those are different types of things, but they aren't. Evolution as a historical fact is the same as the holocaust as a historical fact - you use the exact same reasoning techniques and types of evidence in both cases to form a conclusion. Of course there's better evidence for evolution than there is that many things happened historically (that are accepted and taught as fact) as with evolution you have physical evidence and in history you often only have words written by people with no physical evidence that the events took place. And "Who you talk to" is as relevant in both cases as well. There's nobody around to ask for anything outside of this century.
 
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[quote name='SpazX']Would it be unfair to present the people who say that the holocaust didn't happen or that JFK wasn't shot by Oswald and not also present the evidence that MLK Jr. wasn't shot by whoever that fucking guy was, that FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor, that Al Qaeda wasn't behind 9/11, that the Bush family and the royal family are in fact Reptilian aliens, I could go on.[/QUOTE]

Clearly you have to draw the line somewhere and in most cases I'd leave it up to the teachers discretion. However, obviously, if the teacher had his own theory about something that nobody else had, I would not want him spending an entire day talking about it.

I believe the best learning environment is a discussion, not a lecture. I would like to have enough trust in a good teacher to gauge how much of what to talk about. Ultimately I'd prefer to trust a good teacher to know what kids should know about to give them a well rounded knowledge in preparation for the world - rather than create a curriculum of only scientific consensus and hold his ass to a legal fire for not straying from it.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Clearly you have to draw the line somewhere and in most cases I'd leave it up to the teachers discretion. However, obviously, if the teacher had his own theory about something that nobody else had, I would not want him spending an entire day talking about it.

I believe the best learning environment is a discussion, not a lecture. I would like to have enough trust in a good teacher to gauge how much of what to talk about. Ultimately I'd prefer to trust a good teacher to know what kids should know about to give them a well rounded knowledge in preparation for the world - rather than create a curriculum of only scientific consensus and hold his ass to a legal fire for not straying from it.[/QUOTE]

I don't have a problem with a discussion, they should be learning to use the scientific method. The problem is that you are treating everything as if it is equally legitimate. As if everyone with an opinion and a piece of evidence they believe proves something deserves equal weight in a discussion.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Would it be unfair to present the people who say that the holocaust didn't happen or that JFK wasn't shot by Oswald and not also present the evidence that MLK Jr. wasn't shot by whoever that fucking guy was, that FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor, that Al Qaeda wasn't behind 9/11, that the Bush family and the royal family are in fact Reptilian aliens, I could go on.



You think those are different types of things, but they aren't. Evolution as a historical fact is the same as the holocaust as a historical fact - you use the exact same reasoning techniques and types of evidence in both cases to form a conclusion. Of course there's better evidence for evolution than there is that many things happened historically (that are accepted and taught as fact) as with evolution you have physical evidence and in history you often only have words written by people with no physical evidence that the events took place. And "Who you talk to" is as relevant in both cases as well. There's nobody around to ask for anything outside of this century.[/QUOTE]
Evolution is just a theory, it is not a proven fact that it is real. There is evidence on either side of the argument, but it is not a proven fact.
 
[quote name='myl0r']Evolution is just a theory, it is not a proven fact that it is real. There is evidence on either side of the argument, but it is not a proven fact.[/QUOTE]
Gravity is just a theory, it is not a proven fact that it is real. There is evidence that the Great Spaghetti Monster may simply be holding us in place with His Noodly Appendage, but it is not a proven fact.
 
[quote name='myl0r']Evolution is just a theory, it is not a proven fact that it is real. There is evidence on either side of the argument, but it is not a proven fact.[/QUOTE]

First, you're talking about two different things really - the scientific theory of evolution and whether or not it historically happened. One can stand without the other, as a theory is a testable understanding of how something happens, not the evidence for its historical occurrence. Theories make predictions that are then tested with experiment in an attempt to falsify them. Evolution as a theory is a biological theory, whereas evidence for evolution as a historical fact comes from multiple sources - biology, paleontology, etc.

Second, in science a theory is as solid as you get, there aren't higher levels of "proof" (nothing is proven in science). It's old and tiring to say, but gravity is less well understood than evolution.

There are scientific debates about how evolution happened, not whether or not it did. It's accepted with overwhelming evidence as a basis for research in the same way that it's accepted with overwhelming evidence that the genes are responsible for physical characteristics.
 
[quote name='SpazX']First, you're talking about two different things really - the scientific theory of evolution and whether or not it historically happened. One can stand without the other, as a theory is a testable understanding of how something happens, not the evidence for its historical occurrence. Theories make predictions that are then tested with experiment in an attempt to falsify them. Evolution as a theory is a biological theory, whereas evidence for evolution as a historical fact comes from multiple sources - biology, paleontology, etc.

Second, in science a theory is as solid as you get, there aren't higher levels of "proof" (nothing is proven in science). It's old and tiring to say, but gravity is less well understood than evolution.

There are scientific debates about how evolution happened, not whether or not it did. It's accepted with overwhelming evidence as a basis for research in the same way that it's accepted with overwhelming evidence that the genes are responsible for physical characteristics.[/QUOTE]
So, let me see if I understand this.
Something could be proven scientifically false, but historically true? Or vice versa?
 
[quote name='myl0r']So, let me see if I understand this.
Something could be proven scientifically false, but historically true? Or vice versa?[/QUOTE]

Well yeah. At least the first, it could be scientifically true and historically false only through bad experiments. Like I said, the theory is about how it happened. A scientific theory has to have a certain level of specificity. If we're more closely related to orangutans than chimpanzees, then a specific theory based on that could be wrong while not at all changing the fact that we still evolved from some common ancestor. Which is why there are debates for gradualism vs. punctuated equilibrium or something similar. We could have evolved in jumps and starts or evolved gradually, either theory could be wrong (or both), but it wouldn't change the fact that we evolved somehow.

The physical evidence is overwhelmingly in support of evolution, how it happened specifically is a separate matter, solved by experiment and observation.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Well yeah. At least the first, it could be scientifically true and historically false only through bad experiments. Like I said, the theory is about how it happened. A scientific theory has to have a certain level of specificity. If we're more closely related to orangutans than chimpanzees, then a specific theory based on that could be wrong while not at all changing the fact that we still evolved from some common ancestor. Which is why there are debates for gradualism vs. punctuated equilibrium or something similar. We could have evolved in jumps and starts or evolved gradually, either theory could be wrong (or both), but it wouldn't change the fact that we evolved somehow.

The physical evidence is overwhelmingly in support of evolution, how it happened specifically is a separate matter, solved by experiment and observation.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. Science is NOT my strong suit(obvious?).
With respect to evolution, I know you said they don't know HOW it happened, but what are the best supported theories on the origin of life/matter?

sidenote-if this conversation is too distracting from the original point, we can take it to PM's.
 
[quote name='myl0r']Fair enough. Science is NOT my strong suit(obvious?).
With respect to evolution, I know you said they don't know HOW it happened, but what are the best supported theories on the origin of life/matter?

sidenote-if this conversation is too distracting from the original point, we can take it to PM's.[/QUOTE]

Vs. is all about derailing threads. At the very least this discussion is more relevant to the OP than cheese.

An important thing to remember first of all is that the origin of matter is a separate issue from the origin of life, which is a separate issue from the origin of species (evolution). They all involve entirely different theories (and entirely different fields - matter would mostly fall under physics, life would mostly fall under chemistry). They are too often conflated and that only serves to confuse people. They're also understood at different levels, as evolution is much better understood than the origin of life or matter, which is understandable considering the time frames and availability of physical evidence.

In respect to the understanding of how evolution works there are parts that are better understood than others. Like in my example of punctuated equilibrium vs. gradualism - different theories at that level, but they both work using much better understood mechanisms that underlie evolutionary theories. And other factors in the course of evolution - like genetic drift or mutation - are understood mechanisms, but how relevant they are depends on different circumstances in the environment. An isolated species, for example, could have similar genes even after thousands or millions of years because their environment didn't change significantly and so they had no reason to change either.

For a better understanding of evolution I'd suggest this website: www.talkorigins.org

For what I was talking about before (fact vs theory) they have a nice explanation here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

(I can't say that the website is never condescending towards creationists, but their science is good and there is a lot to be learned there)
 
I think the proof for the non-existence of god is obvious, why would a perfect being create anything which is not itself also perfect? Its the opposite of the way that we can't create anything which is perfect, because we're all flawed ourselves. It wouldn't make sense for something which is perfection itself to create something which is imperfect.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']I think the proof for the non-existence of god is obvious, why would a perfect being create anything which is not itself also perfect? Its the opposite of the way that we can't create anything which is perfect, because we're all flawed ourselves. It wouldn't make sense for something which is perfection itself to create something which is imperfect.[/QUOTE]
How can we, with our imperfect minds, comprehend that which is perfect?
 
[quote name='JolietJake']I think the proof for the non-existence of god is obvious, why would a perfect being create anything which is not itself also perfect? Its the opposite of the way that we can't create anything which is perfect, because we're all flawed ourselves. It wouldn't make sense for something which is perfection itself to create something which is imperfect.[/QUOTE]
I think the same could be said in reverse, that the proof of God's existence is obvious, in the beauty of creation and the complexity of the human body.
The Christian viewpoint is that we WERE created perfect, but given free-will. With the free will, man decided at one point to disobey, making him imperfect.
 
Anyone teaching theories as facts is not doing their job correctly.

Encourage critical thinking, encourage scientific skepticism, encourage empiricism.

These are noble ideas endemic to any science. They are not on the menu offered by those who single out two contentious theories (contentious politically, that is). This is political/religious imposition, not embracing of knowledge, learning, and critical thinking skills.

How many of these same folks would point out the fatal flaws of intelligent design as a competing "theory," do you belive?
 
SpazX is right about Evolution. It has been observed, or more specifically the "Adaptation" aspect of Evolution.

Evolution has only been observed (thus proven) in small jumps and small changes. Nobody has yet observed a single celled organism's life cycle become a complicated animal's life cycle - that's where the emphasis on "theory" comes in.

Evolution is important, because it helps explain where we have been in recent history and where we are gradually headed biologically.

The problem is, Evolution doesn't do a very good job of even trying to explain where we came from, even biologically. Nothing does, and that's ok. Discussing Evolution almost always segways into discussing or asking where we came from. It seems to me that the big argument is whether only the theory of Evolution should be continued to be discussed when it comes to where we come from, even though it doesn't do a very good job of proving anything about it.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']SpazX is right about Evolution. It has been observed, or more specifically the "Adaptation" aspect of Evolution.

Evolution has only been observed (thus proven) in small jumps and small changes. Nobody has yet observed a single celled organism's life cycle become a complicated animal's life cycle - that's where the emphasis on "theory" comes in.

Evolution is important, because it helps explain where we have been in recent history and where we are gradually headed biologically.

The problem is, Evolution doesn't do a very good job of even trying to explain where we came from, even biologically. Nothing does, and that's ok. Discussing Evolution almost always segways into discussing or asking where we came from. It seems to me that the big argument is whether only the theory of Evolution should be continued to be discussed when it comes to where we come from, even though it doesn't do a very good job of proving anything about it.[/QUOTE]

Where we come from is very well understood. Our species is only a couple hundred thousand years old. You're doing what I was talking about before and conflating the origin of life/matter with the origin of species, specifically our species, which obviously hasn't existed even since the beginning of the earth, much less the universe. So where life starts isn't well understood, where humans start is.

And nothing in science, or much else, is ever proven (that's math).
 
[quote name='myl0r']
The Christian viewpoint is that we WERE created perfect, but given free-will. With the free will, man decided at one point to disobey, making him imperfect.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, have to plug those holes in logic some how.;)
 
[quote name='Quillion']How can we, with our imperfect minds, comprehend that which is perfect?[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to argue that human beings can't comprehend perfection? Thats ridiculous. Anything without a single flaw is perfect.

Of course perfection is also a matter of opinion also, so assuming there was a being which was considered perfect by some, it wouldn't be to others.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']
Of course perfection is also a matter of opinion also, so assuming there was a being which was considered perfect by some, it wouldn't be to others.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you answered your original concern right there.

If it is indeed impossible to create a universal truth that everyone agrees on to define how something is "perfect", it's especially impossible to get everyone to agree what a god would feel on the matter.

Or - you can take your own feelings and opinions on perfection and flaws, slap it onto the concept of a God-like-being, and then say it's proof he can't exist.
 
[quote name='SpazX']

And nothing in science, or much else, is ever proven (that's math).[/QUOTE]
That sort of depends on what you're talking about and how complicated it is. There are some things which we know are fact. The simplest i can think of is astronomers proving with observation that the sun is the center of our solar system. That isn't a dispusted fact, we can observe it and see that its true. There are things which can be proven through simple observation, others are harder or even impossible to observe and prove.
 
You're fucking up the derail Jake, philosophical arguments about perfection, god, or gods is entirely independent and irrelevant to evolution as a historical fact or scientific theory.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Sounds like you answered your original concern right there.

If it is indeed impossible to create a universal truth that everyone agrees on to define how something is "perfect", it's especially impossible to get everyone to agree what a god would feel on the matter.

Or - you can take your own feelings and opinions on perfection and flaws, slap it onto the concept of a God-like-being, and then say it's proof he can't exist.[/QUOTE]
You mean about comprehending perfection? That doesn't answer the question, it just means that everyone has differing opinions on perfection. Everyone comprehends it differently, doesn't mean that they don't at all.

Its like a guy saying a woman is perfect and his buddies disagreeing.
 
[quote name='SpazX']You're fucking up the derail Jake, philosophical arguments about perfection, god, or gods is entirely independent and irrelevant to evolution as a historical fact or scientific theory.[/QUOTE]

Even Matt Foley couldn't get this thread back on the right track.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']That sort of depends on what you're talking about and how complicated it is. There are some things which we know are fact. The simplest i can think of is astronomers proving with observation that the sun is the center of our solar system. That isn't a dispusted fact, we can observe it and see that its true. There are things which can be proven through simple observation, others are harder or even impossible to observe and prove.[/QUOTE]

Observation is flawed. Nothing can be proven, there is only probability. Things are accepted as fact because their not being true is so improbable that it isn't worth disputing them.
 
So you think that now nor ever for the rest of human history it will ever be proven beyond any doubt what so ever that the sun is the center of our solar system? That what i'm basically hearing here. I understand why you say what you say, and it would apply to most things, but some observations can basically not be dis-proven.

I just think its more complicated then "nothing can be proven."
 
What I'm saying is "beyond any doubt" and "proven" are different things. I already don't doubt that the sun is the center of the solar system, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily true. So yes, I'm saying that since observation is imperfect, reasoning is imperfect, etc. there is no way to know that it doesn't simply appear, in every way we can possibly observe it, to be one way, but in actuality is another.

So nothing can be proven, things are only more or less probable. It's unbelievably improbable that the sun isn't the center of the solar system. It's almost as improbable that the current set of species on earth is not the result of an evolutionary process.
 
I just think USA would be a better place if people could compartmentalize more (render unto Caesar and all that)

It's ironic because Jesus said

My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.

Apparently the God warriors didn't get the memo.
 
bread's done
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