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Well, their children are automatically US citizens and thus our public schools, free lunch program, and any and all benefits any other US citizen would receive.

Hospitals are obligated to provide health care for them in life-threatening cases. I would guess that in most cases, the government does not pay for this and instead the hospital foots the bill. Either way, our health care system is obviously stretched to the max.

I believe that in some cases, illegals can qualify for food stamps as well.

My real problem is with the programs themselves so perhaps it is unfair to blame the illegals specifically, but I do believe that they do increase the costs of many programs substantially.

Here is an interesting article, actually it's pro-illegal immigrant:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli49.1.html
 
Also, who else is going to work in the fields if we didn't have any illegals? Your average teenage American is texting and Haloing his way to carpal tunnel.
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I stated that I believe they are a valuable cheap labor source. It's not like they will all go away and leave our fields unattended the minute we cut a few programs.

I'm not one of those "they took our jobs!" sorts.
 
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[quote name='Liberty1']Well, their children are automatically US citizens and thus our public schools, free lunch program, and any and all benefits any other US citizen would receive.

Hospitals are obligated to provide health care for them in life-threatening cases. I would guess that in most cases, the government does not pay for this and instead the hospital foots the bill. Either way, our health care system is obviously stretched to the max.

I believe that in some cases, illegals can qualify for food stamps as well.

My real problem is with the programs themselves so perhaps it is unfair to blame the illegals specifically, but I do believe that they do increase the costs of many programs substantially.

Here is an interesting article, actually it's pro-illegal immigrant:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli49.1.html[/QUOTE]

You didn't even read my question....

I said BESIDES free emergent health care (surprisingly some do pay out of pocket) and free education for their children (IF they are born here and thus US citizens), what else do illegals take advantage of? Besides, their children are citizens and will pay taxes in the future. Do you really begrudge giving them a basic education so they can get a better job than strawberry picking?

I'm looking for specific programs that illegals benefit from. What would you cut and why do you think illegals would accept their lot and continue to work when you remove what little safety net they might have. You said you think they can get food stamps. Do you know of any programs they take advantage of or do you just assume they do like the rest of your ilk?
 
[quote name='depascal22']You didn't even read my question....

I said BESIDES free emergent health care (surprisingly some do pay out of pocket) and free education for their children (IF they are born here and thus US citizens)[/QUOTE]

My mom is pretty much a full-time substitute teacher for a remedial program in an elementary school. She has several illegal children her class. They hate speaking english, love to swear or call her names in spanish, and actively talk about how much better mexico is and how much they hate the US (Most of them are in the 6th grade). Most of them were NOT born here.

Meanwhile, my wife's little sister wants to come stay with us and finish highschool here, except that the government won't allow her to without proving she has, and paying $3300 per semester.
 
You didn't even read my question....
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I didn't read it very closely until after I typed that message, sorry.

You said you think they can get food stamps. Do you know of any programs they take advantage of or do you just assume they do like the rest of your ilk?
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What I meant by think they can get food stamps is that they used to be able to, for a fact, get food stamps as well as housing subsidies. I don't know if they still can.
That is the problem here, I really don't know what has and hasn't been closed off to them already.

Do you really begrudge giving them a basic education so they can get a better job than strawberry picking?
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I begrudge all public education. It is low quality and dosen't acknowledge needs of specific children. I'd rather they just let me keep my money and put my kids in a school of my choice.

I said that the problem is with the programs themselves, and am willing to acknowledge that I am being unfair in blaming it on the illegals. I already said that.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']I didn't read it very closely until after I typed that message, sorry.

I begrudge all public education. It is low quality and dosen't acknowledge needs of specific children. I'd rather they just let me keep my money and put my kids in a school of my choice.
[/QUOTE]

So in other words we should continue a poverty cycle which allows the rich to stay rich and the poor to stay poor, as well as makes our nation under perform in the global market since skill and intelligence are not rewarded but instead how much money your daddy has is. If there was no public education and people just spent their tax dollars sending kids to private institutes it would mean the poor would constantly receive either no or horrid education. As I stated above that would lead both to a horrible cycle of poverty, but also the U.S never having enough skilled workers such as Engineers and Scientists(something that is ALREADY a problem!).
 
skill and intelligence are not rewarded but instead how much money your daddy has is.
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Actually, that is how it already is, because private schools and home schooling consistently out preform public schools. Perhaps we should ban private schools so everyone gets an equally bad education?

With no public schools, it would open a whole new market for private schools marketed towards lower-income families. Also, private schools do grant scholarships.
 
Not public schools are bad. I went to a public school that outperformed many of the private or religious schools in the area.

And thrust, remedial programs are filled with difficult children. Either they're country kids that refuse to sit next to dark kids or Mexican kids that refuse to speak English. Either way, it's a incredibly hard job that I commend for her for taking on.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']And I went to one of the worst public schools in the state. Some equality that is.[/QUOTE]

You can blame your parents and neighbors for that. Indiana residents fight property tax increases at every step. This year we had Proposition 1 that capped property taxes. Unfortunately, it will kill public libraries, school budgets, and many other public projects like public transportation.

Luckily, I went to public school in Illinois and California. California doesn't have great schools but I was exposed to a variety of different ways of life that has helped me later in life.

The attitude that seems to pervade many rural areas in this country is that kids are begrudgingly given an education. It won't help on the farms or in the mines so just send them because the state says so.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']And I went to one of the worst public schools in the state. Some equality that is.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you did not turn out well so lets blame the public school system. Look some schools are bad, some good, that does not mean we should just go back to only people that can afford to go to school get to. Yes some kids slip through the cracks, but most kids if they are truely bright and gifted and apply themselves will end up excelling even in a bad school system.

It is really sad and horribly disgusting that you are willing to say that just because things did not work out like you would want in your case/certain cases that you are willing to sacrifice millions of kids for your own personal gain. I can appreciate libertarian beliefs when its coming from people like Thrust that I may not agree with, but can respect and have alternative approaches which again I may not agree with, but can see where they are coming from. You, you just come off as selfish.
 
Indiana residents fight property tax increases at every step.
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The problem with property taxes is that, even if I own my land, and have paid
every cent I owe of it off and just want to retire and be left alone... You still have a grubby tax collector that wants to charge you rent for living on land you supposedly own. Property taxes are a bad way to finance anything.

The attitude that seems to pervade many rural areas in this country is that kids are begrudgingly given an education. It won't help on the farms or in the mines so just send them because the state says so.
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I'm actually unique in my upbringing in that I have two college educated parents that wanted me to have a good education, they were ignorant in some ways, however, in my opinion.

Honestly, though, from an educational stand point, the best education a child can receive is from homeschooling. A parent can provide an education that is much more suited to the child's way of learning. I do realize though, that many parents in Indiana are simply too stupid to teach their kids.

Public schools do expose people to more cultures, that is a valid point you have.
 
[quote name='depascal22']You can blame your parents and neighbors for that. Indiana residents fight property tax increases at every step. This year we had Proposition 1 that capped property taxes. Unfortunately, it will kill public libraries, school budgets, and many other public projects like public transportation.

Luckily, I went to public school in Illinois and California. California doesn't have great schools but I was exposed to a variety of different ways of life that has helped me later in life.

The attitude that seems to pervade many rural areas in this country is that kids are begrudgingly given an education. It won't help on the farms or in the mines so just send them because the state says so.[/QUOTE]

It is funny that the same people that complain about taxes are the same people that point to failing programs like our school systems. "Lets not fund public programs then point to them as failures as to why we should not fund them!" Makes sense to me!
 
[quote name='Liberty1']The problem with property taxes is that, even if I own my land, and have paid
every cent I owe of it off and just want to retire and be left alone... You still have a grubby tax collector that wants to charge you rent for living on land you supposedly own. Property taxes are a bad way to finance anything.



I'm actually unique in my upbringing in that I have two college educated parents that wanted me to have a good education, they were ignorant in some ways, however, in my opinion.

Honestly, though, from an educational stand point, the best education a child can receive is from homeschooling. A parent can provide an education that is much more suited to the child's way of learning. I do realize though, that many parents in Indiana are simply too stupid to teach their kids.

Public schools do expose people to more cultures, that is a valid point you have.[/QUOTE]

You yourself admit that homeschooling does not always work because some people are too stupid. I could teach my child certain subjects such as history, current events and a small amount of bussiness, but most other subjects(especially grammar)would be way outside my realm of comprehension. Most people need to have double incomes these days and most people are ill equiped to teach their children any subject let alone all....so to say home schooling is best is ludicrous. I agree that home schooling CAN be best, but sorry its not a perfect world so for 99% of people its the worst not the best option.

Again all of this ignores the fact too that your solutions would benefit a small number of people while leaving most of our kids ignorant and uneducated.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']The problem with property taxes is that, even if I own my land, and have paid
every cent I owe of it off and just want to retire and be left alone... You still have a grubby tax collector that wants to charge you rent for living on land you supposedly own. Property taxes are a bad way to finance anything.



I'm actually unique in my upbringing in that I have two college educated parents that wanted me to have a good education, they were ignorant in some ways, however, in my opinion.

Honestly, though, from an educational stand point, the best education a child can receive is from homeschooling. A parent can provide an education that is much more suited to the child's way of learning. I do realize though, that many parents in Indiana are simply too stupid to teach their kids.

Public schools do expose people to more cultures, that is a valid point you have.[/QUOTE]

But how many parents know more than addition and subtraction? Hell last time I went to the store and the registers were down the store just stopped because nobody knew how to add on the sales tax even with a calculator. Do you believe that the average parent can explain natural gas laws to their children, acquaint them with enough calculus to survive in college, have the budget to buy staining and microscope equipment to teach a pupil. I went to a shitty schools where we still used brock microscopes and only had one electric one, but that was better equipment most parents could ever provide for their children. In tearing down the public schools, you must also look at what the parent, not just yours, can provide. Hell most parents bitch and complain about having to buy tissue or paints for their kids in elementary school.
 
Homeschooling leaves kids awkward and unprepared for the work place. Have you seen how socially inept they are when they hit the real world?

You mean Jesus didn't create geometry? Heathen!
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']My mom is pretty much a full-time substitute teacher for a remedial program in an elementary school. She has several illegal children her class. They hate speaking english, love to swear or call her names in spanish, and actively talk about how much better mexico is and how much they hate the US (Most of them are in the 6th grade). Most of them were NOT born here.

Meanwhile, my wife's little sister wants to come stay with us and finish highschool here, except that the government won't allow her to without proving she has, and paying $3300 per semester.[/QUOTE]
Kids are assholes, you don't know this? I know a woman from Russia who had some trouble with her kids a few years back. They told her they wanted to go back, back to Russia.

Now I'm not saying Russia is a shithole by any means, but they're kids, you really think they want to get back to Russia? They currently play hockey on a scholarship to some school in Canada.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']

Honestly, though, from an educational stand point, the best education a child can receive is from homeschooling. A parent can provide an education that is much more suited to the child's way of learning. I do realize though, that many parents in Indiana are simply too stupid to teach their kids.

[/QUOTE]
No ti isn't, believe me. Unless the parents are well educated and have a good understanding of the world outside their backyard. Otherwise the kid will grow up with no better understanding of the world than their parents.

edit- Strell is right, and it isn't only in Texas unfortunately.
 
Having seen my older sister (attempt to) home school two of her children so far and a third eventually, I can attest to just how bad of a decision that can be.

Texas also has this weird home school circuit where students are taught a Christian-heavy curriculum that includes outmoded things such as - and I am not making this up - fan language, which is what girls in the Deep South used back in the 1800s during hoedowns and hootenannies and debutante balls. Hold the paper fan this way and it means "come here," or "go away," or whatever other words you can conjure up using something pioneers perfected back in the days before the Industrial Revolution. This is motherfucking terrifying in ways I can't adequately describe.

There is a kind of...phantom school board with home schools. Other parents work my older sister, for example, and there's supposed to be parents that have specialized in subjects. So a math-capable parent might handle that. But seeing my niece become totally unprepared over the years just makes me sad. Her older brother decided to go live with his father, who put him back in public school (which is what he did in elementary school before my sister took the reigns), and you can tell he prefers that overall. Meanwhile, if I ever have to visit my older sister during the day, my niece is never doing anything. She's watching TV, or they are taking a long break for lunch, or they are about to leave to go run errands, whatever. I suspect if I quizzed her on stuff she ought to know, she'd have a difficult time. Meanwhile, she can probably recite the ten commandments, so I guess that's A+ work.

This is all personal anecdotal evidence, sure. So you can't hold it against everything. Much like how you can't take your single school experience and stretch it across the entire board.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Homeschooling leaves kids awkward and unprepared for the work place. Have you seen how socially inept they are when they hit the real world?

You mean Jesus didn't create geometry? Heathen![/QUOTE]

I was home schooled the last year or two of high school and will admit it took social anxiety issues I had and made them 10,000 times worse. I was already struggling a bit with being around large groups of people and or loud noises as well as dealing with pressure situations, after home schooling I could not even enter in to a MCDonalds without feeling sick.

I know its not just me either because every other home school kid I ever meet was extremely weird except for one or two. I think the problem is that most parents who home school do not balance out the lack of social interaction. I think if I could I would home school my kids, but I would balance it out by sending them to tons of after school programs such as athletic activities or art classes or something.
 
You all have valid points, especially that not all parents even have the ability to educate their kids, which I said myself.

And wow @ the Texas homeschooling curriculum.

My main problem with public schools is that they are government ran, and thus tend to teach them to be pro-USA, government loving sheep. But, I guess that is the parent's choice.

I'm not saying I view things any differently, but I do appreciate the criticisms of what I say, simply for the fact that it helps me see both sides.

Anyway, deep thought commencing.
 
"I think if I could I would home school my kids, but I would balance it out by sending them to tons of after school programs such as athletic activities or art classes or something."

Thank you for this, and yes, I believe that is where much of the perceived weirdness comes from, parents not letting (erm, making) their kids get out and make friends.
 
You're just switching one bias for another. You claim schools are USA-biased. Is this better or worse than Christianity-biased? Kids in cults learning about hating one race? Institutionalization is everywhere, and can be "exposed" in a matter of seconds if you look hard enough and draw flimsy conclusions.

Every school in the entire world leans some way or another. And what's worse, society accepts that and makes it worse. A person who goes to, say, Berkeley is going to be labeled a gigantic hippie counterculture hipster. Yale and Harvard grads are uppity bitchboys whose daddies bought their way in. Texas A&M grads are cowfucking redneck good 'ole boys. Inescapable. That doesn't make anything better or worse - it makes it reality.

You're still throwing out lots of generalizations like it's something that becomes fact by your personal observance. My public school experience was goddamn miserable, to the point where if I run across some bastard I went to school with, I instantly want to punch them. But I had some truly brilliant teachers, some good social experience, and learned to better figure out what I wanted to pursue in life. Further, at no time was I unable to learn things on my own outside of school. Which I did, since you'll find that most people who are really successful in life owe next to nothing to public school, and instead got their kicks in at college or on their own time, cultivating skills that became their upward mobility.

Quit changing your excuse from one thing to another to justify some weird conclusion you've drawn based on your own personal relativity. It doesn't hold up.
 
We could have corporately sponsored schools. "Alright class it's time for spelling. Repeat after me, C-O-C-A C-O-L-A."
 
@ Strell, the Christianity bias of many private schools is a good point. I really liked your post.

One of the big things that I really despise though, is the government trying to turn kids against their parents. "Now, if you ever see your mommy or daddy smoking something funny, come tell us and we will make sure they get help."

Yes, you are probably right that I am wrong in judging schools based solely on these things, but there is still something very wrong in a system that tries to use children as spies.
 
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Teaching kids to report things that are illegal, how horrible. As if it isn't hard enough to get kids to talk to police in some areas of the country. "Don't snitch" is practically taught in schools in some areas.

edit- You should be, Myke.
 
"Teaching kids to report things that are illegal, how horrible. As if it isn't hard enough to get kids to talk to police in some areas of the country. "Don't snitch" is practically taught in schools in some areas."

That is because police target and persecute people for crimes that have no victims. And it really is a good lesson, as it protects them, but I guess you'd rather your kid be a martyr.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']"Teaching kids to report things that are illegal, how horrible. As if it isn't hard enough to get kids to talk to police in some areas of the country. "Don't snitch" is practically taught in schools in some areas."

That is because police target and persecute people for crimes that have no victims. And it really is a good lesson, as it protects them, but I guess you'd rather your kid be a martyr.[/QUOTE]

Well, no victims besides the money heading back to violent cartels and gangs that smuggle it in/sell it but whatever.

Are the only things you do is smoke weed/do drugs and drive around while carrying?
 
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Well, no victims besides the money heading back to violent cartels and gangs that smuggle it in/sell it but whatever.
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That, is a product of the drug war.

Are the only things you do is smoke weed/do drugs and drive around while carrying?
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No, I really don't drive except to go to work. I don't go to the movies, a friends or anything fun and not smoke weed though.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']That, is a product of the drug war.[/QUOTE]

Not really. More the product of it being illegal. If they stopped the war on drugs tomorrow, the cartels and gangs would still be the number one pushers.

[quote name='Liberty1']No, I really don't drive except to go to work. I don't go to the movies, a friends or anything fun and not smoke weed though.[/QUOTE]

How do you keep getting caught then? Just curious, it sounds like you have been busted multiple times.
 
How do you keep getting caught then? Just curious, it sounds like you have been busted multiple times.
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I don't get busted, I used to though. I'm so paranoid now, because my next offense is a felony, whether for paraphernalia or possession. If I see a cop turn around, my shit is out the window, and I don't carry pipes anymore, just papers. I'm known to ruin a good time and throw a doobie or a blunt out the window with me just seeing a cop.

Plus the fact that I hate leaving my house if I don't have to. I make people come to me if they want to hang out.
 
I do actually do computer work and work at a local ice cream plant part-time. Also known as sort of a local handy man for the old folks and such, lol.

So... I'm not totally unproductive all the time. Just a lot of the times.
 
[quote name='Clak']Kids are assholes, you don't know this? I know a woman from Russia who had some trouble with her kids a few years back. They told her they wanted to go back, back to Russia.

Now I'm not saying Russia is a shithole by any means, but they're kids, you really think they want to get back to Russia? They currently play hockey on a scholarship to some school in Canada.[/QUOTE]

I guess my point was missed.

I wasn't pointing out their bad behavior to say they behave badly because they are illegals. I was pointing out their bad behavior just to compound the fact that illegals not only get free education here, they also get the costlier remedial education kids with bad behavior sometimes need.

Meanwhile, like I said, the government will not let my sister-in-law come here to finish highschool unless we cough up $3300 a semester. I pay taxes. She's my family. But she can only get "free education" like the illegals if she comes and stays here illegally.

Really, the only real downside to coming here illegally is that it makes it a pain to leave and come back. But if you don't care about that, the benefits vs risk are much much better compared to coming here legally.
 
[quote name='Liberty1']My main problem with public schools is that they are government ran, and thus tend to teach them to be pro-USA, government loving sheep. But, I guess that is the parent's choice. [/QUOTE]

It's funny because conservatives say the exact opposite. All they seem to say is that public schools teach their kids to be anti-USA, handout-loving, politically correct liberal parasites.

They're doing everything they possibly can to get rid of evolution, sex education, and any math that goes over the number 6000. 6000 being the age of the world in their minds.

@thrust, would you rather those kids were running the streets or in a classroom?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I guess my point was missed.

I wasn't pointing out their bad behavior to say they behave badly because they are illegals. I was pointing out their bad behavior just to compound the fact that illegals not only get free education here, they also get the costlier remedial education kids with bad behavior sometimes need.

Meanwhile, like I said, the government will not let my sister-in-law come here to finish highschool unless we cough up $3300 a semester. I pay taxes. She's my family. But she can only get "free education" like the illegals if she comes and stays here illegally.

Really, the only real downside to coming here illegally is that it makes it a pain to leave and come back. But if you don't care about that, the benefits vs risk are much much better compared to coming here legally.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it's right, and I guess I did miss your point. Have you checked if there are any sort of exchange programs she might be elligable for?
 
[quote name='Liberty1']One of the big things that I really despise though, is the government trying to turn kids against their parents. "Now, if you ever see your mommy or daddy smoking something funny, come tell us and we will make sure they get help."

Yes, you are probably right that I am wrong in judging schools based solely on these things, but there is still something very wrong in a system that tries to use children as spies.[/QUOTE]

Is there a system that "tries to use children as spies"? Or an isolated incident.

Because there is a difference donchaknow
 
On a semi-related note; holy shit I quit smoking! I got horribly sick a couple weeks before thanksgiving and have had maybe 4 smokes since. I bought the gum to help with the cravings and a couple days back tried to smoke a regular American Spirit and had the classic turning green and coughing fit reaction.
I promise to not become an anti-smoking Nazi and carry a squirt gun though.
 
[quote name='nasum']On a semi-related note; holy shit I quit smoking! I got horribly sick a couple weeks before thanksgiving and have had maybe 4 smokes since. I bought the gum to help with the cravings and a couple days back tried to smoke a regular American Spirit and had the classic turning green and coughing fit reaction.
I promise to not become an anti-smoking Nazi and carry a squirt gun though.[/QUOTE]

Congrats, man. I went cold turkey and never looked back.
 
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