Federal Reserve Pledges more than $7.4 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit Markets

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Fed Pledges Top $7.4 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. government is prepared to lend more than $7.4 trillion on behalf of American taxpayers, or half the value of everything produced in the nation last year, to rescue the financial system since the credit markets seized up 15 months ago.

The unprecedented pledge of funds includes $2.8 trillion already tapped by financial institutions in the biggest response to an economic emergency since the New Deal of the 1930s, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The commitment dwarfs the only plan approved by lawmakers, the Treasury Department’s $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program. Federal Reserve lending last week was 1,900 times the weekly average for the three years before the crisis.

When Congress approved the TARP on Oct. 3, Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson acknowledged the need for transparency and oversight. Now, as regulators commit far more money while refusing to disclose loan recipients or reveal the collateral they are taking in return, some Congress members are calling for the Fed to be reined in.

“Whether it’s lending or spending, it’s tax dollars that are going out the window and we end up holding collateral we don’t know anything about,” said Congressman Scott Garrett, a New Jersey Republican who serves on the House Financial Services Committee. “The time has come that we consider what sort of limitations we should be placing on the Fed so that authority returns to elected officials as opposed to appointed ones.”

Too Big to Fail

Bloomberg News tabulated data from the Fed, Treasury and Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and interviewed regulatory officials, economists and academic researchers to gauge the full extent of the government’s rescue effort.

The bailout includes a Fed program to buy as much as $2.4 trillion in short-term notes, called commercial paper, that companies use to pay bills, begun Oct. 27, and $1.4 trillion from the FDIC to guarantee bank-to-bank loans, started Oct. 14.

William Poole, former president of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, said the two programs are unlikely to lose money. The bigger risk comes from rescuing companies perceived as “too big to fail,” he said.

The government committed $29 billion to help engineer the takeover in March of Bear Stearns Cos. by New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co. and $122.8 billion in addition to TARP allocations to bail out New York-based American International Group Inc., once the world’s largest insurer. Yesterday, Citigroup Inc. received $306 billion of government guarantees for troubled mortgages and toxic assets. The Treasury Department also will inject $20 billion into the bank after its stock fell 60 percent last week.

“No question there is some credit risk there,” Poole said.

$4.4 Trillion

Bernanke’s Fed is responsible for $4.4 trillion of pledges, or 60 percent of the total commitment of $7.4 trillion, based on data compiled by Bloomberg concerning U.S. bailout steps started a year ago.

“Too often the public is focused on the wrong piece of that number, the $700 billion that Congress approved,” said J.D. Foster, a former staff member of the Council of Economic Advisers who is now a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. “The other areas are quite a bit larger.”
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At this point its clear the Feds will just throw out however much monopoly money they can create. And to top it off, they wont tell us what they are getting in return or where exactly the money is going. Amazing.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']Socializing the losses doesn't mean we're socialists.

Mmmm hmmm.[/quote]

We're not socialists. Our leaders are crooks. There is a difference.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Socializing the losses doesn't mean we're socialists.

Mmmm hmmm.[/quote]

Talk to me when we socialise the profits. ;)
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']We're not socialists. Our leaders are crooks. There is a difference.[/QUOTE]
With a VERY few notable exceptions, they've always been crooks and always will be.

Ergo, they will always socialize losses when they can get away with it.
Ergo, it's reasonable to socialize gains since they will always crook it away anyway.

No?
 
The Federal Reserve is NOT a branch of the Federal Government, but it was named to make you think it was.

How they are able to do something "on behalf" of the American people is a mystery to me as they are not elected, nor empowered to do so.
 
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Why don't they just print a gagillion dollars! Money can be made, it should have no problems right?..... right.....?
 
[quote name='speedracer']With a VERY few notable exceptions, they've always been crooks and always will be.

Ergo, they will always socialize losses when they can get away with it.
Ergo, it's reasonable to socialize gains since they will always crook it away anyway.

No?[/quote]

No.

In rare instances, the crooks get caught.

In this situation, the problem is at the top with our representatives pissing away our future either by design or being bullied into it.

I find it mindboggling that we denied three shitty companies a $25 billion loan (with good reason) after a few days of public discussion, but we hand over $300 billion to one shitty company without any public discussion.

On the plus side, the Fed and the Government are going to fail. Every citizen is going to be hurt in the process.

Maybe people will learn to turn away from Globalization, salvation from the Government or living beyond their means.

One can always hope.
 
Someone asked me this question today, and I think it's a good one:

If these company's were allowed to fail, how does that affect ME? How will that change YOUR day to day life?

Someone please sell this whole bailout mentality to the common man. Explain to us why our lives are going to be ruined if we don't or better if we do. Please?
 
So I'm guessing we're probably headed face first into another depression? I mean, the government had thrown an butt load of money at the "problem" (whatever the hell that is), yet I continue to hear about the credit markets still being frozen and banks not lending.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Someone asked me this question today, and I think it's a good one:

If these company's were allowed to fail, how does that affect ME? How will that change YOUR day to day life?

Someone please sell this whole bailout mentality to the common man. Explain to us why our lives are going to be ruined if we don't or better if we do. Please?[/quote]

The only thing I can come up is that with hundreds of 1000s on unemployment, it will eat our taxes for breakfast because the gov will have to "bail" them out.

[quote name='XxFuRy2Xx']So I'm guessing we're probably headed face first into another depression? I mean, the government had thrown an butt load of money at the "problem" (whatever the hell that is), yet I continue to hear about the credit markets still being frozen and banks not lending.[/quote]

yeah, I don't know if they see it as a problem, because no one is getting blamed besides that one company that didn't get a handout.

I think it's time to break some eggs, and by eggs, I mean stupidlly rediculous companies.... er and skulls, break skulls too.
 
George Will is right, Paulson is now the fourth branch of government, only without any checks or balances. He does whatever he pleases, as does Bernanke. Is our brilliant scheme to piss away tens of trillions of dollars and then declare national bankruptcy? Why are companies now "too big to fail"? What happened when big companies failed in the past? Everything turned out all right? You must be joking - we'll all personally be devastated if Citibank goes under, right?
 
[quote name='elprincipe'] You must be joking - we'll all personally be devastated if Citibank goes under, right?[/QUOTE]

This is my big question.

If citibank fails, how does it affect me?

If AIG fails, how does it affect you?


I mean seriously, do these company's really employ so many people that it will be an unemployment disaster if they failed? Or is it more that the people in power are the banks, or work for the banks, or are affilitated with banks?

Nothing about this makes sense. It's impossible to convince me that any of these company's failures are going to spell doom in any kind of way for me, or for anyone here.

Something is definitely rotten in denmark. I just can't decide what is more upsetting: that we are bailing all these corrupt company's out, or that most people don't give enough of a shit to stop it. I mean- what's next? Does anyone else feel like we are frogs in a pot very slowly coming to a boil?
 
^ I've been on the "we're fucked" train for years now. I see it coming, and, frankly, I'm excited about it. *we* are the generation that has benefited from decades of living beyond our financial means, both as individuals and as a nation; shouldn't, likewise, *we* be the ones who suffer for that, and not three generations down the line?

As long as people remember that we have the numbers, there's nothing to be afraid of. Of course, we've been indoctrinated to accept anything and everything that big business does over the years that we're a culture scared to death of the power of individual democracy in action in the private sector - unions. So, as long as "deal or no deal" is on tv, I guess we don't have the numbers.
 
That's the question thrust, and no one honestly knows the answer. I'm seriously about 50-50 between a post apocalyptic world based on FoC's post above, and the other half just thinking its their way of stealing more money and we're all gonna be fine.

EDIT: The thing I think I'm most worried about is us trying to inflate our way out of it. The other day I heard someone talking about deflation and I almost crapped myself. Remember when inflation was screaming up but everyone pretended it wasn't by talking about "core" inflation (minus food and gas, as if people buy other stuff) going up slowly, ignoring that other stuff? Now they seem to be adding the food and gas to the deflation numbers and are using it as an excuse to bring up *combatting deflation* through... printing money. That's the stuff we should be thinking about when we can't sleep at night. There's a hundred ways this thing can go off the rails, but nothing will get us there faster than trying to combat a mythical deflation.

Exactly the situation we're facing is supposed to be Bernanke's specialty. I'm under the impression he's a depression-era scholar... but it seems like what we need is the Department of Justice, not the Department of the Treasury.

IMO, more importantly, the banks, big insurers, big employers, etc. have just learned a valuable lesson that will reverberate through business schools for decades to come. Part of being a good business leader will involve getting so big, bloated, and over leveraged that the government is faced with a huge down turn if you fail. I mean, who doesn't want free insurance?

That's just smart business at this point.

That's why for the first time in my life, I am now supporting socializing profits. It will never stop from here out. Even if they do find a way to screw the cap back on this Treasury pipe line, how many millions of Americans have just gotten away with grand theft? A generation of wealth was just financed by the American taxpayer. It's not capitalism, we need to stop pretending and move on.

[quote name='mykevermin']As long as people remember that we have the numbers, there's nothing to be afraid of. Of course, we've been indoctrinated to accept anything and everything that big business does over the years that we're a culture scared to death of the power of individual democracy in action in the private sector - unions. So, as long as "deal or no deal" is on tv, I guess we don't have the numbers.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that shit hilarious? The union war cry goes up when Detroit goes up the hill. Where's the war cry when the gatekeepers of capitalism go up the hill? What, the union didn't screw up Citi? Or Bear Sterns? AIG? Fannie? Freddie? Impossible! Someone throw out Detroit quick before we have to pay for blue collar benefits instead of lining the pockets of multi-millionaires!

Also, this is the embodiment of class warfare. Don't you dare say that out loud though or you'll be called a person that engages in class warfare. You know, a communist.
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']This is my big question.

If citibank fails, how does it affect me?

If AIG fails, how does it affect you?


I mean seriously, do these company's really employ so many people that it will be an unemployment disaster if they failed? Or is it more that the people in power are the banks, or work for the banks, or are affilitated with banks?

Nothing about this makes sense. It's impossible to convince me that any of these company's failures are going to spell doom in any kind of way for me, or for anyone here.

Something is definitely rotten in denmark. I just can't decide what is more upsetting: that we are bailing all these corrupt company's out, or that most people don't give enough of a shit to stop it. I mean- what's next? Does anyone else feel like we are frogs in a pot very slowly coming to a boil?[/QUOTE]

Come on, you can't be that dumb.

Citigroup failing would be massive. It's the second largest bank (now that Chase has Wachovia) in America, second largest bank in Mexico, and has over $2 trillion dollars in assests. Ignoring the 358,000 people they employ and the people who would be immediately fucked by them shutting down, it would set of a chain reaction of epic proportions. Would you want to keep your money in a bank after something as big as Citibank went down? I imagine not alot of people would, even though it is FDIC insured up to $100,000 250,000. This rush to withdraw will cause alot of banks that are on the edge to go over and smaller banks to fail. Would you want to put your money in the stock market? Nope, the stock market would pummet causing even more failure.

AIG is a little fuzzier for me but I can only imagine that the 18th largest public company in the world eating shit would be pretty high up there on the "holy fuck this is bad and will create a massive ripple effect" list. I read elsewhere that it would have brought the FDIC down to it's knees due to the amount of banks it would have brought down with it.

If you are lucky enough to have not been affected by this latest turn of events, good...but don't stick your head in the sand as if everything is business as usual just because the shit hasn't hit you yet. There are alot of people out there losing their jobs and retirement funds.

We are in an almost perfect storm global economic situation. We can either sit on our hands and let these companies fail...which will have extreme effects on everybody worldwide OR we can try to save these companies....which could only be a temporary reprieve and it will have extreme effects on everybody worldwide.

-edit [quote name='speedracer']Isn't that shit hilarious? The union war cry goes up when Detroit goes up the hill. Where's the war cry when the gatekeepers of capitalism go up the hill? What, the union didn't screw up Citi? Or Bear Sterns? AIG? Fannie? Freddie? Impossible! Someone throw out Detroit quick before we have to pay for blue collar benefits instead of lining the pockets of multi-millionaires![/QUOTE]

What?

You can't put GM on AIG/Citi's level. Even if we did give them the money, it's only a matter of time before they go down. They have been in a spin for years now and they are just unsustainable. There is no way for Detroit to compete.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Come on, you can't be that dumb.

Citigroup failing would be massive. It's the second largest bank (now that Chase has Wachovia) in America, second largest bank in Mexico, and has over $2 trillion dollars in assests.[/quote]
Well, if they fail, the $2T in assets would just be divvied up by the other bank survivors.. I mean, the $2T doesn't disappear, does it? Why does Citi have to maintain it in order to keep its value... unless it really doesn't have value?
Would you want to keep your money in a bank after something as big as Citibank went down? I imagine not alot of people would, even though it is FDIC insured up to $100,000 250,000. This rush to withdraw will cause alot of banks that are on the edge to go over and smaller banks to fail. Would you want to put your money in the stock market? Nope, the stock market would pummet causing even more failure.
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Your argument is best served by nationalizing banks. It's the most obvious thing to do to anyone but a blind capitalist. If your argument is correct.
AIG is a little fuzzier for me but I can only imagine that the 18th largest public company in the world eating shit would be pretty high up there on the "holy fuck this is bad and will create a massive ripple effect" list. I read elsewhere that it would have brought the FDIC down to it's knees due to the amount of banks it would have brought down with it.
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Enron, the 8th biggest died in a day and no one gave a shit. Just saying, the precedent is there. Hell, Lehman is the biggest default by market cap in the history of the world by what, 5 times, and still the world turns?
What?

You can't put GM on AIG/Citi's level.
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Your words: "Ignoring the 358,000 people they employ and the people who would be immediately fucked by them shutting down". So we're at least ignoring what, 3 or 4 times that many people?

You know, before we even have the rest of the debate.

Even if we did give them the money, it's only a matter of time before they go down.
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You mean like AIG, who we've given 6 times as much money as all of Detroit is asking for together and everyone still expects them to fail, or something different?

They have been in a spin for years now and they are just unsustainable. There is no way for Detroit to compete.
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Well, your other supporting evidence is so strong that I can't help but believe they might have a chance now.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Come on, you can't be that dumb.[/quote]

I can.

We've dumped a bunch of money into failing companies such as Citi and AIG to shore up their positions.

They go on spa retreats, give out bonuses to executives and buy banks losing money.

Well, we had to give out this money to keep their lifestyle going or BAD THINGIES WOULD HAPPEN!

Let's intrapolate (I made up the word. It is an antonym of extrapolate):

Let's pretend Citi is a head of a household with two kids. Let's pretend Citi just lost his rent money in a dice game.

Citi comes up to you and says, "Hey, man, if you don't pay my rent this month, my kids will be completely fucked."

Out of the kindness of your heart, you hand over enough money to cover rent.

The next day, Citi is at Hertz renting a BMW for a week. "Yo, dawg, thanks for that money. Hey! Check out these rims! Hey, uh, can you pay my rent next month?"
 
[quote name='speedracer']Well, if they fail, the $2T in assets would just be divvied up by the other bank survivors.. I mean, the $2T doesn't disappear, does it? Why does Citi have to maintain it in order to keep its value... unless it really doesn't have value?[/QUOTE]

Do you really think it would be that easy? That when something as massive Citigroup falls apart, the next day somebody is going to pick up the pieces and it's going to be business as usual?

What about it destroying peoples' moral in the banking system? The stock market? Would it even be possible to pick up the pieces in a timely manner before everything goes completely to hell?

[quote name='speedracer']Enron, the 8th biggest died in a day and no one gave a shit. Just saying, the precedent is there. Hell, Lehman is the biggest default by market cap in the history of the world by what, 5 times, and still the world turns?[/QUOTE]

Different situations.

[quote name='NYTimes']What frightened Fed and Treasury officials was not simply the prospect of another giant corporate bankruptcy, but A.I.G.’s role as an enormous provider of esoteric financial insurance contracts to investors who bought complex debt securities. They effectively required A.I.G. to cover losses suffered by the buyers in the event the securities defaulted. It meant A.I.G. was potentially on the hook for billions of dollars’ worth of risky securities that were once considered safe.

If A.I.G. had collapsed — and been unable to pay all of its insurance claims — institutional investors around the world would have been instantly forced to reappraise the value of those securities, and that in turn would have reduced their own capital and the value of their own debt. Small investors, including anyone who owned money market funds with A.I.G. securities, could have been hurt, too. And some insurance policy holders were worried, even though they have some protections.

“It would have been a chain reaction,” said Uwe Reinhardt, a professor of economics at Princeton University. “The spillover effects could have been incredible.”[/QUOTE]

[quote name='speedracer']Your words: "Ignoring the 358,000 people they employ and the people who would be immediately fucked by them shutting down". So we're at least ignoring what, 3 or 4 times that many people?

You know, before we even have the rest of the debate.
[/QUOTE]

No idea.

They have over 200 million customer accounts from 110 different countries. I have no clue how many of them would be immediately fucked if Citigroup shut down tomorrow.

[quote name='speedracer']You mean like AIG, who we've given 6 times as much money as all of Detroit is asking for together and everyone still expects them to fail, or something different?[/QUOTE]

Let's say that Detroit does get it's money. How long will they last until they run out? Their business plan is flawed, the thing that saved their ass (SUVs) aren't selling anymore, they can't compete with other car manufactors pricewise, been bleeding money for years and show no signs of changing.

Yeah, I guess you could say "but that's the same thing as AIG/Citigroup" but again, AIG/Citigroup are on a whole different level. While Detroit going down would be very bad but it would be nowhere near as catastrophic as if AIG or Citigroup went down.

We have to pick and choose our battles (and no it has nothing to do with class).

[quote name='speedracer']Well, your other supporting evidence is so strong that I can't help but believe they might have a chance now.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

I never said I was an expert on this but it doesn't take a genius to realize that effects of these companies going down would be massive and the repercussions would be almost on the level of the Great Depression.

But hey, you're right. The solution to this is to let the banks fail, socializing profits, class warfare, gold reserves and Ron Paul.
 
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Guess what? I don't fucking CARE if Citibank goes down! I have my money in a Credit Union so I don't give a ratfuck.

Before all you people acted shocked on this Fed news and them doing whatever they want let me peep the script to you ok? The Fed is a PRIVATE entity that loans the government money at interest. Now let us never mind the fact the government can print money itself and doesn't. Here's the thing. It's a fucking scam!

Now part of what our Forefathers were fleeing were organizations like the Fed. These banking institutions controlled the economies of Europe at the time and still do. Andrew Jackson got rid of "The Bank Of the United States" and was almost assassinated in the process.

Come 1913 the Federal Reserve Act was introduced by the Democrats I think and passed. Here's what indicates the Democrats and Republicans are both two sides of the same coin. Originally the Republicans introduced it and it was introduced as blank's bill(I can't remember his name). Everyone in the public knew the man was a well known friend of the bankers so the bill was thrown out. Then the Democrats introduced the SAME bill, just with the title "The Federal Reserve Act" and they cheered it on and it passed easily. Note the bill beforehand had received widespread complaint.

Oh and btw the big complainer on the Federal Reserve Act who tried to get people to wake up was Charles Lindbergh Jr's father, Charles Lindbergh Sr.

Is a coincidence that 16-17 years later the Great Depression happened? This was done deliberately so the bankers could buy up new companies that sprang up in America after the Bank Of the United States was done away with as well as buy companies back that managed to get free of their hold. I would argue this was especially the case in terms of any media companies. They couldn't have the PUBLIC airwaves, OUR airwaves, represent us in any semblance. No they had to make sure to buy those back at pennies on the dollar and install their puppets, and below them, their minstrels. If you prefer to be more accurate, people who would put on both Black and Whiteface.

Also there are some things to recognize about their MO's. Their biggest tactic is suffering. They don't mind committing murder or inviting conditions in which this would be the end result. Know this. Suffering is the greatest form of distraction because I would argue that in general most people care about other people. These people are apathetic however.

You wonder what the end result of the Fed itself is for here? It's to destroy the Middle Class. You can't have a nice obedient underclass unless you crush the Middle Class. After all some Middle Class people have enough capital to make an impact against them, educate themselves about them for one. Also these people can finance their own business as well. They knew that in America lies the people that might free the shackles of the rest of their world from their Tyrannical grasp.
 
This is starting to sound like an Austin Powers movie. 7.4... TRILLON dollars *pinky to lips*

And also, to Myke, I don't think I deserve our economy fucking up. A lot of spoiled people deserve that but, but I haven't spent outside my means one bit. I don't have any debt period. I have a car that I bought outright, and I even wound up backing out of the home loan that I got because it looked like the housing market would be shit for a little while longer. So, I don't even have that debt. This may be the bias part of me speaking, but I think it's fucking bullshit that I'll be fucked despite the fact I live reasonably and save. I know I'm not the only one either.
 
Unfortunately, the economy is a "we" thing, not a "you and I" thing, if you get the distinction. The freakout at what would happen at the prospect of any of these major institutions falling is evidence of that.

Now we're all going to suffer from hyperinflation because of all the money flowing around that will drive prices up (due to an even further devalued dollar) while we earn the same or less than we have been.

Do you deserve it? Maybe not. Do I? You bet - I'm six deep in student loans, so I can't claim to not deserve anything harmful. Will we both suffer? Yep.
 
Yeah, I understand the distinction perfectly. It's just bullshit, that's all.
But maybe there's another way. I'm leading the movement to have Apache Junction secede from the United States. There we will have our own currency-- hope and freedom for the people also! Ooh, if I'm leader, I'm going to get myself a Hummer!
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Come on, you can't be that dumb.

Citigroup failing would be massive. It's the second largest bank (now that Chase has Wachovia) in America, second largest bank in Mexico, and has over $2 trillion dollars in assests. Ignoring the 358,000 people they employ and the people who would be immediately fucked by them shutting down, it would set of a chain reaction of epic proportions. Would you want to keep your money in a bank after something as big as Citibank went down? I imagine not alot of people would, even though it is FDIC insured up to $100,000 250,000. This rush to withdraw will cause alot of banks that are on the edge to go over and smaller banks to fail. Would you want to put your money in the stock market? Nope, the stock market would pummet causing even more failure.[/quote]

I don't know man. Maybe my perspective is far more "I'm an island" than it should be. But I don't play the stock market. I live from paycheck to paycheck. I strive to make my mortgage, and pay utilities and that's it. If Citibank fails, it won't affect me. I don't have a loan through them. Those that do have loans with them - what will happen if Citibank fails? As far as I can see, they won't have to pay back their loans as soon.

Sure, people that play the stock market are going to be fucked hard. So what? The stock market is a legal system of gambling anyway. You put your money into it, you are acknowledging the fact that, like going to a casino, you can be fucked hard. That's a CHOICE.

I would much rather have all these company's fail. Yes, it will be painful, mostly to their employees. But those people can get other jobs, even if they are shittier (like I'm going to have to). That's life. But it's not fair to hyper inflate our currency and spread the "punishment" to every single American alive, just to save a few company's that made shitty decisions, and stave off an cascading economic breakdown that, if you study how the money system is set up, is completely built into the system anyway, i.e. it's a forgone conclusion and always has been.

We just keep putting off the explosion by smothering the fire with more explosives, with these bailouts.

[quote name='Sarang01']Guess what? I don't fucking CARE if Citibank goes down! I have my money in a Credit Union so I don't give a ratfuck.[/quote]
Same here. Credit unions ftw.

Before all you people acted shocked on this Fed news and them doing whatever they want let me peep the script to you ok? The Fed is a PRIVATE entity that loans the government money at interest. Now let us never mind the fact the government can print money itself and doesn't. Here's the thing. It's a fucking scam!

Now part of what our Forefathers were fleeing were organizations like the Fed. These banking institutions controlled the economies of Europe at the time and still do. Andrew Jackson got rid of "The Bank Of the United States" and was almost assassinated in the process.

Come 1913 the Federal Reserve Act was introduced by the Democrats I think and passed. Here's what indicates the Democrats and Republicans are both two sides of the same coin. Originally the Republicans introduced it and it was introduced as blank's bill(I can't remember his name). Everyone in the public knew the man was a well known friend of the bankers so the bill was thrown out. Then the Democrats introduced the SAME bill, just with the title "The Federal Reserve Act" and they cheered it on and it passed easily. Note the bill beforehand had received widespread complaint.

Oh and btw the big complainer on the Federal Reserve Act who tried to get people to wake up was Charles Lindbergh Jr's father, Charles Lindbergh Sr.

Is a coincidence that 16-17 years later the Great Depression happened? This was done deliberately so the bankers could buy up new companies that sprang up in America after the Bank Of the United States was done away with as well as buy companies back that managed to get free of their hold. I would argue this was especially the case in terms of any media companies. They couldn't have the PUBLIC airwaves, OUR airwaves, represent us in any semblance. No they had to make sure to buy those back at pennies on the dollar and install their puppets, and below them, their minstrels. If you prefer to be more accurate, people who would put on both Black and Whiteface.

Also there are some things to recognize about their MO's. Their biggest tactic is suffering. They don't mind committing murder or inviting conditions in which this would be the end result. Know this. Suffering is the greatest form of distraction because I would argue that in general most people care about other people. These people are apathetic however.

You wonder what the end result of the Fed itself is for here? It's to destroy the Middle Class. You can't have a nice obedient underclass unless you crush the Middle Class. After all some Middle Class people have enough capital to make an impact against them, educate themselves about them for one. Also these people can finance their own business as well. They knew that in America lies the people that might free the shackles of the rest of their world from their Tyrannical grasp.
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Everything you say here is true. Although your conjecture about the Fed's goals at the end are just that -a guess. A good guess, but I don't know if I totally agree.

You must have watched money masters? Either that or you really studied your economic history.

Doesn't really matter though. Most people either don't understand what you just said, don't believe what you just said, or outright don't care what you just said.

One thing is certain though: The day we allowed the Federal Reserve to be created (putting a non-government controlled PRIVATE central bank in charge of our currency) we put the nail in our coffin.

All you need to understand is this: Since 1913 (creation of the federal reserve) the dollar has devalued 93% in 96 years. Our government is now taking actions that will accelerate that even more. What does that tell you? It doesn't take a genius to figure out we are nearing the end of this ride. How much more can it devalue before something drastic and likely very unpleasant happens?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I don't know man. Maybe my perspective is far more "I'm an island" than it should be. But I don't play the stock market. I live from paycheck to paycheck. I strive to make my mortgage, and pay utilities and that's it. If Citibank fails, it won't affect me. I don't have a loan through them. Those that do have loans with them - what will happen if Citibank fails? As far as I can see, they won't have to pay back their loans as soon.[/QUOTE]

If you can't see how eventually it will trickle down to you, you're crazy.

As myke said, the economy is a "we" thing not a "you and me" thing. If something that big happens, you'll feel it's effect eventually.

Does it really take you getting hit in the face with a handful of shit to see beyond what you have and your "fuck you I got mine" attitude?

[quote name='thrustbucket']Sure, people that play the stock market are going to be fucked hard. So what? The stock market is a legal system of gambling anyway. You put your money into it, you are acknowledging the fact that, like going to a casino, you can be fucked hard. That's a CHOICE.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, fuck my dad for wanting to retire. WHAT A DOUCHEBAG! HE SHOULD JUST WORK UNTIL HE'S DEAD!!!

[quote name='thrustbucket']I would much rather have all these company's fail. Yes, it will be painful, mostly to their employees. But those people can get other jobs, even if they are shittier (like I'm going to have to). That's life. But it's not fair to hyper inflate our currency and spread the "punishment" to every single American alive, just to save a few company's that made shitty decisions, and stave off an cascading economic breakdown that, if you study how the money system is set up, is completely built into the system anyway, i.e. it's a forgone conclusion and always has been.
[/QUOTE]

If it happens, it's coming regardless what we do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Again, just because you haven't been affected yet, doesn't mean yours isn't coming. I'm sure you'll be whisting a different tune when it's your job being cut due to your company downsizing or going under. But what am I thinking, you can just be a trench digger for minimum wage or something if you get canned.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']^... But the people receiving the bailouts are wasting the money.[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure that can be solved by hanging a few upside down and beating them with tire irons.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I am pretty sure that can be solved by hanging a few upside down and beating them with tire irons.[/quote]

I would like to do that for community service.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']Yeah, I understand the distinction perfectly. It's just bullshit, that's all.
But maybe there's another way. I'm leading the movement to have Apache Junction secede from the United States. There we will have our own currency-- hope and freedom for the people also! Ooh, if I'm leader, I'm going to get myself a Hummer![/QUOTE]

Sweet. I declare myself the fuedal lord of thrustbucket's plot of not-sellin' land.

Or was it foc who owned a big plot of nothin' out there?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Sweet. I declare myself the fuedal lord of thrustbucket's plot of not-sellin' land.

Or was it foc who owned a big plot of nothin' out there?[/quote]

It was thrust, but you can buy my property, too.

In February, it will be on the market for one full year. We haven't lived there since June.

The wife is getting antsy to sell, the MAN keeps telling me arson is illegal and the neighborhood is nice enough that random thugs won't break down the doors, smash everything and defecate everywhere. Lazy, random thugs.

I can afford the house and my rent payment, but the house keeps me from buying another one.

Since we drive Fords, I know the cars can't survive the miles we would put on them with our old commute. That and all those OPEC countries are going to push the price of oil back in to triple digits. So, we can't move back to Elizabethtown.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Sweet. I declare myself the fuedal lord of thrustbucket's plot of not-sellin' land.

Or was it foc who owned a big plot of nothin' out there?[/QUOTE]

It's me. It's in Arizona though. In the desert. Nice area in Apache Junction. :)

I don't really own it though, the bank does, after I sue this builder into oblivion.


All I can say, fellas, is buy your canned goods and survival gear. The economy may not exist for much longer, might as well be ready to unplug yourself from a dying system.
 
Sorry Myke, but that land has been set aside for the observatory. A bunch of bullshit I know, don't worry we'll wind up tearing it down in six months after its built. Then after that, no more excessive spending for the new country of Apache Junction!

I want to stock up on food, but I'd hate to consider myself someone who excessively panics. Akin to those who bought canned goods and bunkers for Y2K... although it seems almost certain that the country will go in the shitter with the incompetents running the treasury, and allowing it to be ran that way by their fellow incompetents.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']I want to stock up on food, but I'd hate to consider myself someone who excessively panics. Akin to those who bought canned goods and bunkers for Y2K... although it seems almost certain that the country will go in the shitter with the incompetents running the treasury, and allowing it to be ran that way by their fellow incompetents.[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. But I just start changing my spending habits and occasionally buy something that is more survival oriented. I don't panic, sell everything I own, and start buying up guns and bunkers.

I am saving for a deep freezer and 5,000 watt generator. When I go shopping now, I look for really good sales, then I buy a shit load of that item. Instead of just buying what I need for the next week or so.

That's about all you can do. All you have to do is imagine life without electricity or clean water, and buy stuff that would help you in that case.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I know what you mean. But I just start changing my spending habits and occasionally buy something that is more survival oriented. I don't panic, sell everything I own, and start buying up guns and bunkers.

I am saving for a deep freezer and 5,000 watt generator. When I go shopping now, I look for really good sales, then I buy a shit load of that item. Instead of just buying what I need for the next week or so.

That's about all you can do. All you have to do is imagine life without electricity or clean water, and buy stuff that would help you in that case.[/quote]

Why aren't you buying wind turbines, exercise bikes hooked to generators and inverters?

My wife tends to get pissy because I overstock.

She doesn't seem to grasp it is better to buy 4 gallons of milk this week for $2.50 each ($10 total) that will be drank before they expire instead of 2 gallons this week for $2.50 each and 2 gallons next week for $3.22 each ($11.44 total).

She thinks bad things will never happen.

Yet 200,000 people didn't have electricity in our area for over a week after Hurricane Ike.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Why aren't you buying wind turbines, exercise bikes hooked to generators and inverters?
[/QUOTE]

Oh I am working on the windmill situation actually :).
 
[quote name='speedracer']

Enron, the 8th biggest died in a day and no one gave a shit. Just saying, the precedent is there. Hell, Lehman is the biggest default by market cap in the history of the world by what, 5 times, and still the world turns?[/quote]

Enron, WorldCom, etc. brought about Sarbanes-Oxley. The common man might have forgotten about Enron, but Corporate American is reminded of it daily.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']Enron, WorldCom, etc. brought about Sarbanes-Oxley. The common man might have forgotten about Enron, but Corporate American is reminded of it daily.[/QUOTE]
And really, the joke is on us, huh? SOX is an awful, nightmarish, expensive piece of legislation that distracts from our (the collective business world) mission of creating shareholder value through customer value in a serious and tangible way.

And yet, here we are again with off-balance bullshit. Same exact dog doing the same old tricks, just dressed up a little differently. It's like steroids, where they change the molecule ever-so-little that it still performs the desired illegal effect while passing a piss test.

You get the feeling they're always going to be cheating no matter how you test? Me too.
 
You could see the economy was sick when our debt hit 8 trillion a few years ago. It was only a matter of time when the dollar fell 1/3 against the euro. It was a slow creeping doom. Now, within three months they've increased that debt by 30% and they want to keep going?!? I hate to say it, and I really hate to say it, but sometimes I wish Americans would man up and be a little more French.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Le4m796aM&feature=related
 
[quote name='speedracer']And really, the joke is on us, huh? SOX is an awful, nightmarish, expensive piece of legislation that distracts from our (the collective business world) mission of creating shareholder value through customer value in a serious and tangible way.

And yet, here we are again with off-balance bullshit. Same exact dog doing the same old tricks, just dressed up a little differently. It's like steroids, where they change the molecule ever-so-little that it still performs the desired illegal effect while passing a piss test.

You get the feeling they're always going to be cheating no matter how you test? Me too.[/quote]

speedracer,

Couldn't tell if you were just adding to my post, or if you thought I was stating that SOX solved our problems. I never said it solved our problems with publicly traded companies, I said it made them remember Enron ;)

The first thing I would like to see is an elimination of the "signing bonuses" offered to attract executives. This isn't the NFL.

Side Note: I am a accounting major at a college in Pennsylvania (evening classes, finally a junior, plan on doubling up on classes to graduate by next January). My knowledge is admittedly rudimentary when it comes to financials. I am attempting to learn everything I come accross. So I find this board very useful. It gives me access to the viewpoints I would not see in newspapers, magazines, or text books.
 
Thank you thrust. I appreciate being validated.

I gotta tell you I'm having a time trying to turn myke to seeing my side. I don't know how much longer it's going to take. I know there's a good non-partisan person in him who won't just shill for the Democrats.
I'm hoping I can get him to help instate runoff voting in his state, complain with me and get Obama's prospective Secretary Of Agriculture changed. Maybe if runoff voting happens for him he'll start voting for the Green Party or the Libertarian one, parties that actually give a damn about changing things in politics.

Oh and thrust it was stuff I picked up about the Fed and heard around. I'd heard the Fed being a private entity in one chat and on our local community radio station, hearing it constantly put out. Someone informed me about the Fed act and Lindbergh in a chat as well as the switch up in bills from Republican to Democrat.

Myke if you don't believe the Fed is a scam just look up Amshel Rothchild's quote about "Give me the power to print money and I care not who makes the laws.". Well I paraphrased it a bit but it's something to that effect.

Oh and Clinton thanked a man for getting to where he was. Reading this Carol guy's book he mentions these people. It's out of print so you'll have to buy it used.

Here's some further info that should make you doubt Clinton. I'm sure most of you know he's a Rhodes Scholar. Look up what Rhodes actually mandated and people might think twice about the man.

I think I ended up accepting these things because of where I heard it around, the Rothchild validation in quotes. We even hear about the government borrowing money from the Fed. But the bottom line is something didn't mesh with me.

Oh and an education lesson. In this world we're taught certain things. First we are dredged in mundane, dull things. This is to train our minds to shirk off the extraordinary being impossible. In this the ordinary is the ordinary, the slightly outside of ordinary is extraordinary and the extraordinary is simply impossible and even unfathomable. This is why it is so hard for some people to accept 9/11. Others, even when they manage to somewhat dredge past that, bury their heads in the sand out of fear. If one can accept MK ULTRA, why then is 9/11 so impossible? Tell me. The CIA abducted people off the streets and subjected them to LSD in an attempt at mind control.
MK ULTRA and other things which just haven't come out yet I'm sure just validate why we need a WEAK central government with only our defense truly being the strong part. The rest of the world needs the same imo. Only if we can get here as well as China, Taiwan, etc. getting there as well as doing away with the Fed will we truly be leaps and bounds ahead in safety imo.
 
paddlefoot, I was just adding to it. It echoed many of my thoughts. And the accounting degree is the one to have in business, without question. Good choice.

Oh Fed, I can't decide if I love you or hate you. You're religion and the Wizard of Oz rolled into one.

Happy Turkey Day everyone.
 
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