johnnypark
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[quote name='PhrostByte']I think that's bound to happen with any body art thread... Your talk of a universal truth behind religion brings up a good point, but allow me to pose a counter-argument.
You're right, most of the major religions do generally preach the same ideas and moral principles. My problem with religions isn't founded in their core beliefs, but more of their applications. People take this stuff way too seriously. They argue over it, fight over it, and embrace it the wrong way. Instead of bringing people together, religion seems to do more dividing.. always has. So, my claim: Why do we even need it? Why do we need such tools that create these divisions? Do we really need holy texts and priests to tell us what is right?
[/quote]
You make good points, but to be realistic, with over 90% of Americans alone asserting some belief in a higher power, and the strength of religions worldwide, at this point it doesn't matter if we "need it" or not, it's here to stay. I think the likelihood of it being abandoned on a large scale is extremely unlikely, given the cultural ties that most religions have to where they've started - IE Islam in the Middle East, or Hinduism in India, isn't just a religion, it's a complete way of life that has influence on social norms and legislation.
[quote name='PhrostByte'] Surely, it would seem that the reason why all religions do tend to preach the same central principles, is because these principles are universally found independent of religious thought. As an atheist, I still believe in the concepts of goodness, helping people, all that stuff. If I don't need religion, why should anyone else?
[/quote]
I agree, I feel the principles in question are universal, and would manifest just fine without any religious texts. Atheism does not equal immorality. But, you'd be hard pressed to win a philosophical argument that any principal of morality has any real basis, it's all relative to the perceiver and your own beliefs. To that degree, I feel comfortable saying that religions have played a role in establishing a universal social ethic, even if it could have happened on it's own without them. Any argument in philosophy, though, that starts off with a premise such as "It's acceptable to say that killing/stealing/(insert bad behavior here) is wrong" could be reputed as being relative.
Of course, I grew up practically being an atheist (or maybe the right word is apathist
Yes I realize that isn't a real word), and never questioned most social ethics.
[quote name='PhrostByte'] I guess what I'm trying to say is.. I don't have any problem with people like you. I think you've got the right idea... but I don't think most "religious" people do. That's why I'd say in general.. I'm anti-religious, anti-theist whatever. I think people can sort of extract moral principles the same way that physicists extract physical principles from the natural world. Yafeelme?[/quote]
I completely agree with you on this one. I think as soon as religion becomes institutionalized, it has power over people, and it should never be that way. Spirituality should be empowering, but not used as a source of power over other people. This is why I'm so fond of Taoism and Buddhism (and Eastern religions in general), they can pretty much coexist peacefully without treading on each other's toes, opposed to the fundamental disagreements found across Western religions.
I once tried to explain to my ex-girlfriend's evangelical mother that in Islam, they regard G-d as the same G-d as the Christian Bible, which is the same G-d of the Hebrew Bible, and she got so upset and said they couldn't be the same because of "all the things in Islam that they're told to do," - interpret that as you will. But she refused to accept that they saw the Quran as the "Final Testament" to G-d's contact with humanity (the 1st and 2nd being the Hebrew and Christian testaments). Of course, this is the same woman who refused to buy anything made in China for years, because she thought it was tainted by evil since they weren't a Christian nation. For the record, a priest suggested she do this to address some family issues, but that doesn't make it any less crazy.
[quote name='joe2187']I thought this was about tattoo's......Im scared now.[/quote]
Well, it's about the motivation behind some of the tattoos I have and/or am getting, so it's not completely OT.
And why scared?
You're right, most of the major religions do generally preach the same ideas and moral principles. My problem with religions isn't founded in their core beliefs, but more of their applications. People take this stuff way too seriously. They argue over it, fight over it, and embrace it the wrong way. Instead of bringing people together, religion seems to do more dividing.. always has. So, my claim: Why do we even need it? Why do we need such tools that create these divisions? Do we really need holy texts and priests to tell us what is right?
[/quote]
You make good points, but to be realistic, with over 90% of Americans alone asserting some belief in a higher power, and the strength of religions worldwide, at this point it doesn't matter if we "need it" or not, it's here to stay. I think the likelihood of it being abandoned on a large scale is extremely unlikely, given the cultural ties that most religions have to where they've started - IE Islam in the Middle East, or Hinduism in India, isn't just a religion, it's a complete way of life that has influence on social norms and legislation.
[quote name='PhrostByte'] Surely, it would seem that the reason why all religions do tend to preach the same central principles, is because these principles are universally found independent of religious thought. As an atheist, I still believe in the concepts of goodness, helping people, all that stuff. If I don't need religion, why should anyone else?
[/quote]
I agree, I feel the principles in question are universal, and would manifest just fine without any religious texts. Atheism does not equal immorality. But, you'd be hard pressed to win a philosophical argument that any principal of morality has any real basis, it's all relative to the perceiver and your own beliefs. To that degree, I feel comfortable saying that religions have played a role in establishing a universal social ethic, even if it could have happened on it's own without them. Any argument in philosophy, though, that starts off with a premise such as "It's acceptable to say that killing/stealing/(insert bad behavior here) is wrong" could be reputed as being relative.
Of course, I grew up practically being an atheist (or maybe the right word is apathist
Yes I realize that isn't a real word), and never questioned most social ethics.[quote name='PhrostByte'] I guess what I'm trying to say is.. I don't have any problem with people like you. I think you've got the right idea... but I don't think most "religious" people do. That's why I'd say in general.. I'm anti-religious, anti-theist whatever. I think people can sort of extract moral principles the same way that physicists extract physical principles from the natural world. Yafeelme?[/quote]
I completely agree with you on this one. I think as soon as religion becomes institutionalized, it has power over people, and it should never be that way. Spirituality should be empowering, but not used as a source of power over other people. This is why I'm so fond of Taoism and Buddhism (and Eastern religions in general), they can pretty much coexist peacefully without treading on each other's toes, opposed to the fundamental disagreements found across Western religions.
I once tried to explain to my ex-girlfriend's evangelical mother that in Islam, they regard G-d as the same G-d as the Christian Bible, which is the same G-d of the Hebrew Bible, and she got so upset and said they couldn't be the same because of "all the things in Islam that they're told to do," - interpret that as you will. But she refused to accept that they saw the Quran as the "Final Testament" to G-d's contact with humanity (the 1st and 2nd being the Hebrew and Christian testaments). Of course, this is the same woman who refused to buy anything made in China for years, because she thought it was tainted by evil since they weren't a Christian nation. For the record, a priest suggested she do this to address some family issues, but that doesn't make it any less crazy.
[quote name='joe2187']I thought this was about tattoo's......Im scared now.[/quote]
Well, it's about the motivation behind some of the tattoos I have and/or am getting, so it's not completely OT.
And why scared?
