Gladiator A.D. is now Tournament of Legends; The Grinder is now multi-platform
- Thread starter Cao Cao
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laaj
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Here is an idea: why won't Nintendo fund development and publish M rated game to prove that M rated games will sell on the Wii. Nintendo doesn't have to publish it under Nintendo badge but something different. Like how Disney owns studios that makes R rated movies with nudity but you won't see any Disney logos on them.
[quote name='laaj']Here is an idea: why won't Nintendo fund development and publish M rated game to prove that M rated games will sell on the Wii. Nintendo doesn't have to publish it under Nintendo badge but something different. Like how Disney owns studios that makes R rated movies with nudity but you won't see any Disney logos on them.[/QUOTE]
They've been burned on this at least twice in the past. See: Conker's Bad Fur Day and Resident Evil 4. The former they published, marketed, etc. Didn't go anywhere. The latter was a case of teaming up for a supposed exclusive game, which Capcom faffed around on about a month before it was released.
There are probably other examples of this if you really look around. They did just do Reginleiv over in Japan though, which is both M and published by them if my memory is correct.
Note: I am not disagreeing with your point. I am saying Nintendo has tried this. Maybe it's just a case of picking the wrong games to do it with, or some other factor screwed it up. At any rate, you could say it's 100% contradictory to their whole mantra to begin with, and despite your fairly-analogous metaphor re: Disney up there, Nintendo seems stubbornly (and firmly) on the side of games for everyone > games for a targeted audience, at least in terms of age and maturity.
But whatever.
They've been burned on this at least twice in the past. See: Conker's Bad Fur Day and Resident Evil 4. The former they published, marketed, etc. Didn't go anywhere. The latter was a case of teaming up for a supposed exclusive game, which Capcom faffed around on about a month before it was released.
There are probably other examples of this if you really look around. They did just do Reginleiv over in Japan though, which is both M and published by them if my memory is correct.
Note: I am not disagreeing with your point. I am saying Nintendo has tried this. Maybe it's just a case of picking the wrong games to do it with, or some other factor screwed it up. At any rate, you could say it's 100% contradictory to their whole mantra to begin with, and despite your fairly-analogous metaphor re: Disney up there, Nintendo seems stubbornly (and firmly) on the side of games for everyone > games for a targeted audience, at least in terms of age and maturity.
But whatever.
laaj
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Ok there goes any chances of M rated games making money but how about Nintendo's advice for 3rd party games then. Reason why there aren't many big 3rd party games is because they were burned and Nintendo stated many reasons for that. How about if next 3rd party follows every single advice by Nintnedo and if they still get burned, Nintendo could reimburse the cost of that game. Is sort of like Nintendo putting their money where their mouth is.
To back up Strell, anyone remember Free Radical? You know, the people behind Timesplitters? It only took one bomb on an HD console (Haze) and out the door they went as well. A lot of people hate on the Wii, but there is as much risk on a HD console as the Wii itself, if not more so.
This generation wiped out a crap load of studios, all who mainly saw death on the HD consoles. Makes sense though, there is a bigger investment in development on those consoles and if the game bombs, you're sunk.
Hell, if I was a studio, I rather take risk with a M rated property on the Wii versus the HD twins. The "death rate" is much smaller and with development costs being lower, I have more of a chance to make profit on it. Madworld and HOTD Overkill may have only sold 500K roughly, but I am willing to bet both studios walked away with a solid profit. And both of those games are niche products to begin with.
This generation wiped out a crap load of studios, all who mainly saw death on the HD consoles. Makes sense though, there is a bigger investment in development on those consoles and if the game bombs, you're sunk.
Hell, if I was a studio, I rather take risk with a M rated property on the Wii versus the HD twins. The "death rate" is much smaller and with development costs being lower, I have more of a chance to make profit on it. Madworld and HOTD Overkill may have only sold 500K roughly, but I am willing to bet both studios walked away with a solid profit. And both of those games are niche products to begin with.
Man, I knew when I was writing about that stuff earlier, that there was another dev house I wanted to mention, and I kept thinking about the Star Wars Battlegrounds games or whatever I think FR made, but was too lazy to be bothered to look up something about it.
Laaj: I think dev houses really resent Nintendo these days. They've managed to make a huge amount of money on a less-powerful system with less-dev-intensive games, lacking a lot of the expensive bells and whistles of HD games. It actually seems more prevalent with Japanese developers, who shun away from the DS to port games to the PSP, despite the fact that outside of Japan, those games are guaranteed to have less returns.
The above is a bit of a conspiracy theory. I don't think it's TOO far gone, as I think it is worth mentioning.
The thing is, Nintendo is notoriously secretive. They want their games to look the best, play the best, etc. They are not wild on the idea of divulging secrets to their competitors, whom they must figure to be just short of "everyone+aliens." Point is, they've always hidden away various development secrets so that their graphics are generally a step above other games. Likewise, and again, because of some sour relationships regarding teaming up with other developers, they simply aren't hot on the idea of giving out a bunch of advice.
The best we can hope for is partnerships, where Nintendo and someone else are more or less equal in their roles through development. Mistwalker with The Last Story, Team Ninja with Metroid M, Monolith Soft with Xenoblade, Tecmo with Fatal Frame 4. That's as close as we're going to get with Nintendo helping people out beyond their own walls.
Laaj: I think dev houses really resent Nintendo these days. They've managed to make a huge amount of money on a less-powerful system with less-dev-intensive games, lacking a lot of the expensive bells and whistles of HD games. It actually seems more prevalent with Japanese developers, who shun away from the DS to port games to the PSP, despite the fact that outside of Japan, those games are guaranteed to have less returns.
The above is a bit of a conspiracy theory. I don't think it's TOO far gone, as I think it is worth mentioning.
The thing is, Nintendo is notoriously secretive. They want their games to look the best, play the best, etc. They are not wild on the idea of divulging secrets to their competitors, whom they must figure to be just short of "everyone+aliens." Point is, they've always hidden away various development secrets so that their graphics are generally a step above other games. Likewise, and again, because of some sour relationships regarding teaming up with other developers, they simply aren't hot on the idea of giving out a bunch of advice.
The best we can hope for is partnerships, where Nintendo and someone else are more or less equal in their roles through development. Mistwalker with The Last Story, Team Ninja with Metroid M, Monolith Soft with Xenoblade, Tecmo with Fatal Frame 4. That's as close as we're going to get with Nintendo helping people out beyond their own walls.
laaj
CAGiversary!
[quote name='M-PG71C']To back up Strell, anyone remember Free Radical? You know, the people behind Timesplitters? It only took one bomb on an HD console (Haze) and out the door they went as well. A lot of people hate on the Wii, but there is as much risk on a HD console as the Wii itself, if not more so.
[/QUOTE]
Is there really more risk with HD games? Because I remember bunch of PC developers over a decade ago going bust after one dud game. I seriously doubt HD or non-HD matters when it comes to studios going bust. Good developers will always make it while bad ones (or ones past their prime) will fade away.
[/QUOTE]
Is there really more risk with HD games? Because I remember bunch of PC developers over a decade ago going bust after one dud game. I seriously doubt HD or non-HD matters when it comes to studios going bust. Good developers will always make it while bad ones (or ones past their prime) will fade away.
The Crotch
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Scrubking
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[quote name='M-PG71C']To back up Strell, anyone remember Free Radical? You know, the people behind Timesplitters? It only took one bomb on an HD console (Haze) and out the door they went as well. A lot of people hate on the Wii, but there is as much risk on a HD console as the Wii itself, if not more so.
This generation wiped out a crap load of studios, all who mainly saw death on the HD consoles. Makes sense though, there is a bigger investment in development on those consoles and if the game bombs, you're sunk.
Hell, if I was a studio, I rather take risk with a M rated property on the Wii versus the HD twins. The "death rate" is much smaller and with development costs being lower, I have more of a chance to make profit on it. Madworld and HOTD Overkill may have only sold 500K roughly, but I am willing to bet both studios walked away with a solid profit. And both of those games are niche products to begin with.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure Free Radical got bought out before they could go under. Also they had a problem in that nobody wanted to publish their games like Time Splitters 4.
I think we should get away from the idea that one game toppled a company and focus on the fact that the increased costs of HD development are a significant factor in all of the closings that have happened as well as the downturn in profits for a lot of companies.
Even game companies realize this as EA is shopping around the idea of a PS360 Dead Space Extraction port for $15. They know HD gamers would never buy that game at full price since it clearly lacks the effort, depth, features and production values HD consumers expect in their games. (it's also a good example of how 3rd parties perceive and have treated Wii consumers all this time)
This generation wiped out a crap load of studios, all who mainly saw death on the HD consoles. Makes sense though, there is a bigger investment in development on those consoles and if the game bombs, you're sunk.
Hell, if I was a studio, I rather take risk with a M rated property on the Wii versus the HD twins. The "death rate" is much smaller and with development costs being lower, I have more of a chance to make profit on it. Madworld and HOTD Overkill may have only sold 500K roughly, but I am willing to bet both studios walked away with a solid profit. And both of those games are niche products to begin with.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure Free Radical got bought out before they could go under. Also they had a problem in that nobody wanted to publish their games like Time Splitters 4.
I think we should get away from the idea that one game toppled a company and focus on the fact that the increased costs of HD development are a significant factor in all of the closings that have happened as well as the downturn in profits for a lot of companies.
It all depends on what kind of game you are making and how much it costs to make it. However, in general I would say yes. Besides increased costs per game the HD consumer has been conditioned to expect gigantic blockbuster type games with enormous production values which cost enormous amounts of money to make, and if your game doesn't deliver there's a good chance that no one will buy it. This is evidenced by the fact that games that don't meet the blockbuster status are quickly derided by HD gamers as only being worth $10 as a downloadable game. This happens a lot with 2D games.
Even game companies realize this as EA is shopping around the idea of a PS360 Dead Space Extraction port for $15. They know HD gamers would never buy that game at full price since it clearly lacks the effort, depth, features and production values HD consumers expect in their games. (it's also a good example of how 3rd parties perceive and have treated Wii consumers all this time)
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@ Scrubking
They went into financial administration, that's about as good as it comes when it comes to a business closing down. They just lucked out and got bought out. They still laid off everybody but 40 people, mainly being "administrative", not developers. I'd say it is more of a transition into a new entity than anything but still, they went out because of a failure of their primary title (Haze).
Studios always have concepts and future titles in the planning stages and are always looking for publishers to buy-in, but if a game fails, a game fails. With the industry being high-risk for smaller developers, it only takes one failure. It's a shame. It can be applied to any console but because of the higher costs for HD development, there's naturally more risk (and in some cases, rewards too)
@ laaj
Yep, and I remember last generation when a bunch of publishers sank too. As the industry becomes progressively more expensive, there will be less studios, less publishers. That's a trend that can't be ignored. In some ways, its good because it weeds out weaker studios. It can be bad too because you can have too many "blockbuster" games and not enough consumers to buy them. I think that's the issue the HD twins are facing because there is a lot of games that bombed on those systems. But you never hear about them lol
The only ones who hear about games that bomb on those HD consoles are shareholders of said companies (people like me who have made profits through stock. Dark Void is one I expect to bomb, I don't see it selling enough to make profit. Capcom as a whole will be worth keeping around in the longer term though).
Yeah, I buy stock in the #1 thing I love to death, games! I see it as if I'm going to debate, may as well put my money where my mouth is. (Well, healthcare companies too but that's what I study, but that's a different mess)
They went into financial administration, that's about as good as it comes when it comes to a business closing down. They just lucked out and got bought out. They still laid off everybody but 40 people, mainly being "administrative", not developers. I'd say it is more of a transition into a new entity than anything but still, they went out because of a failure of their primary title (Haze).
Studios always have concepts and future titles in the planning stages and are always looking for publishers to buy-in, but if a game fails, a game fails. With the industry being high-risk for smaller developers, it only takes one failure. It's a shame. It can be applied to any console but because of the higher costs for HD development, there's naturally more risk (and in some cases, rewards too)
@ laaj
Yep, and I remember last generation when a bunch of publishers sank too. As the industry becomes progressively more expensive, there will be less studios, less publishers. That's a trend that can't be ignored. In some ways, its good because it weeds out weaker studios. It can be bad too because you can have too many "blockbuster" games and not enough consumers to buy them. I think that's the issue the HD twins are facing because there is a lot of games that bombed on those systems. But you never hear about them lol
The only ones who hear about games that bomb on those HD consoles are shareholders of said companies (people like me who have made profits through stock. Dark Void is one I expect to bomb, I don't see it selling enough to make profit. Capcom as a whole will be worth keeping around in the longer term though).
Yeah, I buy stock in the #1 thing I love to death, games! I see it as if I'm going to debate, may as well put my money where my mouth is.
(Well, healthcare companies too but that's what I study, but that's a different mess)
laaj
CAGiversary!
[quote name='M-PG71C']
Yep, and I remember last generation when a bunch of publishers sank too. As the industry becomes progressively more expensive, there will be less studios, less publishers. That's a trend that can't be ignored. In some ways, its good because it weeds out weaker studios. It can be bad too because you can have too many "blockbuster" games and not enough consumers to buy them. I think that's the issue the HD twins are facing because there is a lot of games that bombed on those systems. But you never hear about them lol
[/QUOTE]
I don't really think number of studios will have any impact on games. Even if a major studio goes out of bussiness good talent from those studios will have no trouble finding jobs on other studios or starting a new studio.
Even if 2 or 3 major publisher goes out of bussiness I don't think there will be any huge problems for the industry. Just look at WBIE and Disney coming on with serious attempts after trying the waters for last couple of years. There will always be new or existing publishers to fill any void in the market.
Yep, and I remember last generation when a bunch of publishers sank too. As the industry becomes progressively more expensive, there will be less studios, less publishers. That's a trend that can't be ignored. In some ways, its good because it weeds out weaker studios. It can be bad too because you can have too many "blockbuster" games and not enough consumers to buy them. I think that's the issue the HD twins are facing because there is a lot of games that bombed on those systems. But you never hear about them lol
[/QUOTE]
I don't really think number of studios will have any impact on games. Even if a major studio goes out of bussiness good talent from those studios will have no trouble finding jobs on other studios or starting a new studio.
Even if 2 or 3 major publisher goes out of bussiness I don't think there will be any huge problems for the industry. Just look at WBIE and Disney coming on with serious attempts after trying the waters for last couple of years. There will always be new or existing publishers to fill any void in the market.
'Cube Daddy
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[quote name='laaj']I don't really think number of studios will have any impact on games. Even if a major studio goes out of bussiness good talent from those studios will have no trouble finding jobs on other studios or starting a new studio.
Even if 2 or 3 major publisher goes out of bussiness I don't think there will be any huge problems for the industry. Just look at WBIE and Disney coming on with serious attempts after trying the waters for last couple of years. There will always be new or existing publishers to fill any void in the market.[/QUOTE]
It probably comes down to funding, though. Great talent can create a fantastic product anywhere, but it's very costly to distribute and market it. The whole "paying for downloads" system seems to be experiencing a few issues at the mo.
I agree with whomever said up-thread that Nintendo needs to invest in homegrown M-rated titles to prove that it can be done. Eternal Darkness 2 would be a gift from heaven, as far as I'm concerned. That IP should not be left forgotten.
Even if 2 or 3 major publisher goes out of bussiness I don't think there will be any huge problems for the industry. Just look at WBIE and Disney coming on with serious attempts after trying the waters for last couple of years. There will always be new or existing publishers to fill any void in the market.[/QUOTE]
It probably comes down to funding, though. Great talent can create a fantastic product anywhere, but it's very costly to distribute and market it. The whole "paying for downloads" system seems to be experiencing a few issues at the mo.
I agree with whomever said up-thread that Nintendo needs to invest in homegrown M-rated titles to prove that it can be done. Eternal Darkness 2 would be a gift from heaven, as far as I'm concerned. That IP should not be left forgotten.
Scrubking
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Unless 3rd parties are forced to take Nintendo consoles seriously again Nintendo will have to fund and make their own "M-rated" games if they want to get into that arena. But they don't have to prove anything as M rated games can sell on Nintendo platforms just fine given the proper effort.
And this obsession with M-rated games is insane. Blood, tits and swear words don't make a game fun or entertaining. They don't make the console that has them sophisticated and they don't make the people who play them connoisseurs. The fact that the industry has deteriorated into attacking Nintendo based on an ESRB rating without a care in the world for the quality of the game that bears that rating is absolutely crazy.
In other words who cares if M-rated games don't sell if all the M-rated games are crap? Why are M-rated games assumed to be high quality and worth selling? Why do people care if blood and tits sell well? Are the "hardcore" also in an uproar over the fact that most blockbuster movies are PG-13 and not R-rated?
The videogame industry along with "hardcore" gamers and their "hardcore" values have become so incredibly stupid that it really boggles the mind.
And this obsession with M-rated games is insane. Blood, tits and swear words don't make a game fun or entertaining. They don't make the console that has them sophisticated and they don't make the people who play them connoisseurs. The fact that the industry has deteriorated into attacking Nintendo based on an ESRB rating without a care in the world for the quality of the game that bears that rating is absolutely crazy.
In other words who cares if M-rated games don't sell if all the M-rated games are crap? Why are M-rated games assumed to be high quality and worth selling? Why do people care if blood and tits sell well? Are the "hardcore" also in an uproar over the fact that most blockbuster movies are PG-13 and not R-rated?
The videogame industry along with "hardcore" gamers and their "hardcore" values have become so incredibly stupid that it really boggles the mind.
laaj
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[quote name='Scrubking']Why are M-rated games assumed to be high quality and worth selling? Why do people care if blood and tits sell well?
[/QUOTE]
Because there are limitations on what kind of stories you can tell without M rating. It doesn't even have to be about killing, blood, or sex but about hot button social topics.
[/QUOTE]
Because there are limitations on what kind of stories you can tell without M rating. It doesn't even have to be about killing, blood, or sex but about hot button social topics.
Scrubking
CAGiversary!
[quote name='laaj']Because there are limitations on what kind of stories you can tell without M rating. It doesn't even have to be about killing, blood, or sex but about hot button social topics.[/QUOTE]
Wha? Hot button or social topics do not require a game to be M-rated. Hollywood is full of stories dealing with sex, violence and even rape and they are not rated R.
And if you are trying to say that videogames include sex and gore in order to tell some kind of serious story then I can only lol. Videogame sex and violence couldn't be any more gratuitous and unnecessary in today's games.
In other words God of War doesn't have a sex mini-game because it is trying to make some grand point. It's all fanservice and nothing more.
Wha? Hot button or social topics do not require a game to be M-rated. Hollywood is full of stories dealing with sex, violence and even rape and they are not rated R.
And if you are trying to say that videogames include sex and gore in order to tell some kind of serious story then I can only lol. Videogame sex and violence couldn't be any more gratuitous and unnecessary in today's games.
In other words God of War doesn't have a sex mini-game because it is trying to make some grand point. It's all fanservice and nothing more.
The Grinder no longer a FPS.
Now a top down shooter, 360 version was playable at GDC
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/107/1077020p1.html
Now a top down shooter, 360 version was playable at GDC
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/107/1077020p1.html
D. Monic
CAGiversary!
[quote name='Kaoz']The Grinder no longer a FPS.
Now a top down shooter, 360 version was playable at GDC
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/107/1077020p1.html[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I just came here to post this. I don't see it selling squat at retail as a top-down shooter. If they put it out on XBLA, then it could it do okay as a cheap downloadable title, but that seems rather non-ambitious for a title that had a lot of potential.
Sure, there are a lot of FPSes on the 360, but that's also what sells. It suggests to me that they didn't think they could compete with the best FPS titles on the system. In which case, it was a terrible idea to go multi-platform in the first place.
Let's hope (and pray) the Wii version remains an FPS.
Now a top down shooter, 360 version was playable at GDC
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/107/1077020p1.html[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I just came here to post this. I don't see it selling squat at retail as a top-down shooter. If they put it out on XBLA, then it could it do okay as a cheap downloadable title, but that seems rather non-ambitious for a title that had a lot of potential.
Sure, there are a lot of FPSes on the 360, but that's also what sells. It suggests to me that they didn't think they could compete with the best FPS titles on the system. In which case, it was a terrible idea to go multi-platform in the first place.
Let's hope (and pray) the Wii version remains an FPS.
I hope the Wii one remains a FPS, I was legitimately interested, and this is coming from someone who has a PS3 and plenty access to FPS's if I so wanted.
I'm not too interested in the top-down shooter, and I grew up on that kind of gaming too. I wanted to see them push the envelope and go further than The Conduit.
I'm not too interested in the top-down shooter, and I grew up on that kind of gaming too. I wanted to see them push the envelope and go further than The Conduit.
http://www.nintendoeverything.com/35030/
Tournament of Legends looks pretty bad to me. Not that I expected it to be good to begin with though.
Tournament of Legends looks pretty bad to me. Not that I expected it to be good to begin with though.
bread's done