Harriet Miers is the SCOTUS pick

Putting aside the issue of whether she is sufficiently "conservative," she is simply not well qualified for the role. She lacks both Roberts' impeccable credentials and his relevant experience.

Major letdown.
 
Look, perhaps in your world qualifications are all that are relevant. I would not mind living in that world. However, if credentials were all that mattered, then pretty much everything surrounding these nominations would be moot.

The discussions, both those occuring in the public and government sector, center around political ideologies. The discourse is not about whether her time as bar president is sufficient or not; it is about where she stands.

So, we can talk about qualifications (and I'm trying to find her bio on whitehouse.gov, which I briefly glimpsed this morning) until we are blue in the face. It is only one part of the discussion about how appropriate she is for being an associate justice.

However, experience and credentials do matter greatley; with that in mind, I'm no legal scholar. How does her legal experience show her to be inadequate?
 
This is why people like clinton shouldn't have voted against roberts. They could attack her fully without being accused of simply rejecting her on political grounds.

I almost wonder though if she is somewhat of a pawn. He hopes she gets through, but, if she doesn't, he may have another far right person he wants to appoint and, after her, he may be viewed as the lesser of two evils.
 
Roberts and Miers will vote how Bush tells them to, regardless of their "opinions".

Bush's mission is to overturn Roe and ban gay marriage, he would NEVER appoint anyone who would not help with that mission.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Look, perhaps in your world qualifications are all that are relevant. I would not mind living in that world. However, if credentials were all that mattered, then pretty much everything surrounding these nominations would be moot.

The discussions, both those occuring in the public and government sector, center around political ideologies. The discourse is not about whether her time as bar president is sufficient or not; it is about where she stands.

So, we can talk about qualifications (and I'm trying to find her bio on whitehouse.gov, which I briefly glimpsed this morning) until we are blue in the face. It is only one part of the discussion about how appropriate she is for being an associate justice.

However, experience and credentials do matter greatley; with that in mind, I'm no legal scholar. How does her legal experience show her to be inadequate?[/QUOTE]

Qualifications do matter. Period. This is the highest court in the land.

Ms. Miers is underqualified in at least the following ways:

* She attended SMU undergrad and law school without much distinction. (Compare this to Justice Roberts, a magna cum laude graduate of the Harvard Law School and President of the Law Review.)

* She clerked only for a district court judge. (Compare this to Justice Roberts, who clerked for the inimitable Judge Friendly of the Circuit Court and Justice Rehnquist of the Supreme Court.)

* She has never been a judge. (Not necessary, but it does help, particularly where your experience is not otherwise impressive. Compare this to Justice Roberts, who was on the DC Circuit Court of Appeals.)

* She is not a Supreme Court advocate. (Compare this to Justice Roberts, who was widely regarded as the top SCOTUS advocate of the last two decades, having argued over 30 cases.)

* She did not have much federal government experience. (While she was White House Counsel for the last year or so, that is pretty much all of the federal experience she has. Compare this to Justice Roberts, who served in a number of capacities in the Reagan and Bush I White Houses and served on the DC Court of Appeals.)

These are merely SOME of the reasons that I don't think she is qualified. All in all, she reminds me of Abe Fortas, the horrible Supreme Court pick who had served as White House Counsel. Scary thought.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Roberts and Miers will vote how Bush tells them to, regardless of their "opinions".

Bush's mission is to overturn Roe and ban gay marriage, he would NEVER appoint anyone who would not help with that mission.[/QUOTE]

You would have said the same thing about Justice Kennedy and Justice Souter when they were appointed by Republicans. Look how that turned out.
 
[quote name='sgs89']Qualifications do matter. Period. This is the highest court in the land.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say they did not matter; I am merely pointing out that, if qualifications were all that mattered, then there is no reason for any political debate on the issue. If we focus solely on qualifications, then ANY nomination should be a rather cut and dry affair, ending quickly with a large consensus vote one way or another.

However, as evidenced by the notorious 22 Democrats who voted against Roberts, in addition to his questioning in front of the senate, there is far more than qualifications that matter. I'm not saying what you argue isn't ideal (nor am I saying it is); I'm merely saying that your argument that qualifications *alone* matter is refuted by the existence of the nomination process itself.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']However, as evidenced by the notorious 22 Democrats who voted against Roberts, in addition to his questioning in front of the senate, there is far more than qualifications that matter. I'm not saying what you argue isn't ideal (nor am I saying it is); I'm merely saying that your argument that qualifications *alone* matter is refuted by the existence of the nomination process itself.[/QUOTE]

I never argued that qualifications *alone* matter. My point is that qualifications SHOULD matter much more than they actually do.

And I disagree that the existence of the nomination process itself refutes anything. After all, the nomination process should be about assessing a nominee's qualifications much more than his or her politics. The fact that the latter inquiry has gained in importance is a shame, but it certainly doesn't mean that it is the right way to do things.
 
When a nominee is clearly qualified, ideology becomes the important issue. When a nominee is obviously unqualified, the debate can shift to credentials.
 
Harriet Miers is the fillabusta killa.

Bush already had his stealth candidate in Roberts. Miers is distrubingly loyal to Bush going so far as to call him "the most brilliant man I've ever met". Bush knows what he wants and despite have no public record, I am quite sure both she and Roberts fit the bill (Meirs even moreso being that close to Bush). I mean how quick is Bush to push for abortion cases this SCOTUS term? Very telling, IMO.

[quote name='evanft']When a nominee is clearly qualified, ideology becomes the important issue. When a nominee is obviously unqualified, the debate can shift to credentials.[/QUOTE]

Kind of disagree. Past experience shows that when certain nominees are unqualified the debate shifts to race and gender (Clarence Thomas is the model here). Conservatives hate affirmative action unless they get credit.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Roberts and Miers will vote how Bush tells them to, regardless of their "opinions".[/quote]
On this, I completely agree

Bush's mission is to overturn Roe and ban gay marriage, he would NEVER appoint anyone who would not help with that mission.
On this, though, I have to disagree. Bush's 'mission' is a accrue money and power for himself and his friends. That's it. There's nothing beyond that. Abortion and gay marriage are sometimes useful tools to whip a depressingly large portion of the population into a frenzy of support, but that's all those topics mean to him.

Miers got the pick because she's unabashedly pro-corporation, and believes in unlimited power for the executive branch. She's a Bush crony through-and-through, exactly like Roberts (and Brown, and Chertoff, and pretty much every other person Bush surrounds himself with.) The next 20 years are going to be a very, VERY bad time to be an American, regardless of who wins in 2006/2008.
 
[quote name='Drocket']Miers got the pick because she's unabashedly pro-corporation, and believes in unlimited power for the executive branch. She's a Bush crony through-and-through, exactly like Roberts (and Brown, and Chertoff, and pretty much every other person Bush surrounds himself with.) The next 20 years are going to be a very, VERY bad time to be an American, regardless of who wins in 2006/2008.[/QUOTE]

Your suggestion that Roberts is a Bush crony is laughable. What evidence do you have of that? Did he serve in the Administration? No. Are they personal friends? No. Do you know he will vote as Bush "tells him to"? No, of course not, you are just engaging in gross speculation.

You might have had a point with Miers, but please do not embarrass yourself by lumping Roberts in with Miers.
 
[quote name='Drocket']You may want to look into Robert's involvement in the 2000 election dispute in Florida.[/QUOTE]

Big deal, many lawyers were involved in that dispute. Roberts was not even a major participant.

It certainly does not suggest that he is a Bush "crony."

Please check your facts before hurling accusations.
 
Yeah, he 'only' wrote the briefs filed with the Supreme Court, as well as helped prep and coach the lawyers who did the actual arguments, as well as hundreds of hours of billable work that have so far only been labeled as 'consulting'. Barely involved at all.
 
[quote name='Drocket']Yeah, he 'only' wrote the briefs filed with the Supreme Court, as well as helped prep and coach the lawyers who did the actual arguments, as well as hundreds of hours of billable work that have so far only been labeled as 'consulting'. Barely involved at all.[/QUOTE]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what it means to be a mere "crony" appointment. I think it is clear that Roberts is definitely NOT a crony appointment -- he is eminently qualified and is his own man.

Miers, on the other hand, now THAT is a crony.
 
Coming on the heels of the whole Mike Brown contreversy surrounding his lack of credentials, I really can't understand how the Bush administration can seriously put forth this pick... nothing good can come from it.
 
[quote name='sgs89']I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what it means to be a mere "crony" appointment. I think it is clear that Roberts is definitely NOT a crony appointment -- he is eminently qualified and is his own man.

Miers, on the other hand, now THAT is a crony.[/QUOTE]

Well, you are correct that crony isn't QUITE the right word for Roberts. 'Willing co-conspiritator in the hostile takeover of the American government by the insane lunatic fringe' is probably a good deal more accurate.

If we want to be completely accurate, Miers strikes me as more of a patsy than a crony. She seems like a good-natured person who's not too bright and is easily maniputed by those with hostile intentions.
 
[quote name='Drocket']Well, you are correct that crony isn't QUITE the right word for Roberts. 'Willing co-conspiritator in the hostile takeover of the American government by the insane lunatic fringe' is probably a good deal more accurate.

If we want to be completely accurate, Miers strikes me as more of a patsy than a crony. She seems like a good-natured person who's not too bright and is easily maniputed by those with hostile intentions.[/QUOTE]

OK, that description of the goings-on in Florida confirms that YOU are part of the "can't let it go" lunatic fringe. I will take your future postings with this in mind.

As for your description of Miers, while I don't pretend to know her intelligence level, I like your label of "patsy." Patsy, crony, what's the difference? Either way, it was a horrible pick....
 
[quote name='sgs89']OK, that description of the goings-on in Florida confirms that YOU are part of the "can't let it go" lunatic fringe. I will take your future postings with this in mind.

As for your description of Miers, while I don't pretend to know her intelligence level, I like your label of "patsy." Patsy, crony, what's the difference? Either way, it was a horrible pick....[/QUOTE]

It's hard to let it go when you consider that point in history made your country, and much of international politics, take a dramatic turn for the worst.
 
She's a complete scrub, disgraceful pick and there's absolutely no reason for her to be nominated let alone confirmed.

I don't know what I hate Bush for more this or his continued de facto open borders policy.

This is indeed a horrible God awful pick.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']She's a complete scrub, disgraceful pick and there's absolutely no reason for her to be nominated let alone confirmed.

I don't know what I hate Bush for more this or his continued de facto open borders policy.

This is indeed a horrible God awful pick.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you for once. Though, if she's as malleable as some conservatives seem to think and fear, maybe, politically, she's good for liberals.
 
[quote name='sgs89']OK, that description of the goings-on in Florida confirms that YOU are part of the "can't let it go" lunatic fringe. I will take your future postings with this in mind.[/QUOTE]

So what's new? These days, America is a battle between two huge lunatic fringes.
 
[quote name='sgs89']OK, that description of the goings-on in Florida confirms that YOU are part of the "can't let it go" lunatic fringe. I will take your future postings with this in mind.[/QUOTE]

The 'hostile takeover of the American government by the insane lunatic fringe' thing isn't merely referring to Florida in 2000. Its very much an ongoing process.

In case you haven't noticed, Bush & co have been outsourcing everything they can get their hands on to outside corporations for grotesquely inflated prices. They don't even try to hide this - they downright BRAG about it (except for the 'grotesquely inflated prices' part, of course. That part they're strangely silent about...) Meanwhile, they continue to strip the EPA, FDA, FEMA, and other branches of the government dedicated to protecting citizens of funding and manpower needed to function, while rewriting bankruptcy laws to resemble something you'd see in a Dickens novel, and doing everything to gut the consumer's right sue. All this while trying to destroy Social Security, give even more massive tax cuts to the rich, and handing billions over to corporations under any justification they can come up with on the spur of the moment.

Ultimately, Roe v. Wade is a misdirection from the Bush administrations true intent: creating a government controlled entirely by corporations, which are in turn controlled by a small number of wealthy elite. Roberts and Miers both make perfect sense as Supreme Court nominees: both have a long, long record of arguing for giving corporations absolute power over everything.

I do think that Roberts and Miers come from different positions, on a personal level. Roberts sees himself as one of the wealthy elite who will control the world, or at the very least, he'll be near the top of the heap (and lets face it, its working out pretty darn well for him, so far.) Miers, on the other hand, is - well, not stupid, per se. Weak-willed is probably the better term. A natural born follower, who will do what she's told.

Edit:
A bit more regarding Roberts, and why Bush didn't pick another one: the problem with people like Roberts - the 'natural leaders' who desire to be among the ruling class - is that they are, by and large, backstabbers, who'll betray whoever gets in their way in their eternal quest for more power. This makes them dangerous. Roberts, however, is a reasonably safe canidate - his life, by and large, revolves around Roe v. Wade, specifically getting it overturned. Bush has little need to fear Roberts, as Roberts life work will always be ensuring that abortion is illegal. Finding another like Roberts is difficult (apparently impossible.) The drive that a person like Roberts has to succeed would virtually always wind up being a drive for power that would threaten Bush. And so, Bush wound up having to pick a spectacularly unspectacular canidate, simply because she's safe - she supports all the policies that Bush wants supported, while at the same time presenting no threat of eclipsing Bush. Not QUITE the perfect canidate (better qualifications would certainly help), but definitely a very good one, based on Bush's needs.
 
[quote name='Drocket']The 'hostile takeover of the American government by the insane lunatic fringe' thing isn't merely referring to Florida in 2000. Its very much an ongoing process.

In case you haven't noticed, Bush & co have been outsourcing everything they can get their hands on to outside corporations for grotesquely inflated prices. They don't even try to hide this - they downright BRAG about it (except for the 'grotesquely inflated prices' part, of course. That part they're strangely silent about...) Meanwhile, they continue to strip the EPA, FDA, FEMA, and other branches of the government dedicated to protecting citizens of funding and manpower needed to function, while rewriting bankruptcy laws to resemble something you'd see in a Dickens novel, and doing everything to gut the consumer's right sue. All this while trying to destroy Social Security, give even more massive tax cuts to the rich, and handing billions over to corporations under any justification they can come up with on the spur of the moment.

Ultimately, Roe v. Wade is a misdirection from the Bush administrations true intent: creating a government controlled entirely by corporations, which are in turn controlled by a small number of wealthy elite. Roberts and Miers both make perfect sense as Supreme Court nominees: both have a long, long record of arguing for giving corporations absolute power over everything.

I do think that Roberts and Miers come from different positions, on a personal level. Roberts sees himself as one of the wealthy elite who will control the world, or at the very least, he'll be near the top of the heap (and lets face it, its working out pretty darn well for him, so far.) Miers, on the other hand, is - well, not stupid, per se. Weak-willed is probably the better term. A natural born follower, who will do what she's told.

Edit:
A bit more regarding Roberts, and why Bush didn't pick another one: the problem with people like Roberts - the 'natural leaders' who desire to be among the ruling class - is that they are, by and large, backstabbers, who'll betray whoever gets in their way in their eternal quest for more power. This makes them dangerous. Roberts, however, is a reasonably safe canidate - his life, by and large, revolves around Roe v. Wade, specifically getting it overturned. Bush has little need to fear Roberts, as Roberts life work will always be ensuring that abortion is illegal. Finding another like Roberts is difficult (apparently impossible.) The drive that a person like Roberts has to succeed would virtually always wind up being a drive for power that would threaten Bush. And so, Bush wound up having to pick a spectacularly unspectacular canidate, simply because she's safe - she supports all the policies that Bush wants supported, while at the same time presenting no threat of eclipsing Bush. Not QUITE the perfect canidate (better qualifications would certainly help), but definitely a very good one, based on Bush's needs.[/QUOTE]

Wow, and I thought the far right was full of bizarre conspiracy theories. How is your speculation any different than those who think our government is run by ZOG, a cabal of Jewish leaders pulling all the strings? They are both equally bizarre and inaccurate.

Now, I will concede that those in power have an interest in protecting their own power. And the power of their friends. That is always the case. But to claim that Bush is actually trying to set up a corporation-run United States is, well, paranoia.

And, again, your attacks on Roberts are completely unjustified. I find it quite interesting that you know so much about the man -- for instance, your statement that his life revolves around overturning Roe v. Wade. Did you serve as his law clerk? Are you one of his friends? His father? How do you know so much about him?

Once again, you really undercut your own points when you engage in such naked speculation -- with no facts to support it -- and hyperbole.
 
Tell me which part of the massive and continuing handover of power to corporations is inaccurate. Go ahead. There isn't a single shred of speculation there - every last thing I said there is entirely accurate, and easily documented by simply looking at the public record.

The only part there that qualifies as speculation is the WHY. And to be perfectly clear, I don't think Bush himself has any specific plan for any of this, but he's not innocent, either. He's a self-centered, moderately brain damaged (from the drugs and drinking. That's not even speculation there. He can't string 3 words together without stammering.) person who's always gotten everything he's even wanted in life. His universe revolves around him. He believes himself (and his small circle of friends) to be better than everyone else. He also believes that he's a good person, and has a vague, disinterested desire to help others. He makes the mistake of believing that whats good for him is good for everyone else. That's the reason behind the push to privatize social security, deregulate everything, eliminate the estate tax, etc. They'll help him, and so by doing so, he believes that he's helping everyone. Yeah, its a little crazy, but thats what 2 decades of drugs and drinking get you.

Some of the people he surrounds himself are a bit more 'evil', in that they have a clearer idea of what they're doing (accumulating power at the expense of everyone else.) I don't think anyone is SPECIFICALLY working towards a government controlled by corporations, but that is, never-the-less, the effects of their actions, as they continue to give more and more power to their friends.


As for Roberts, all you have to do is look at his record. You'll find very little beyond support for corporate power and anti-abortion cases. He surrounds himself with people who are rabidly anti-abortion. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that 20 years of helping out on every abortion case he could track down would maybe indicate his position.
 
miers.jpg


i'd hit it
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']I'd hit her, a bitch with no experience and no respect for the constitution.[/QUOTE]

she respects the parts of it that God tells her to respect
 
[quote name='PKRipp3r']
miers.jpg


i'd hit it[/QUOTE]

If confirmed, she will replace Ginsburg as the most unattractive woman ever to sit on the SCOTUS. Of course, given that only 3 women have ever served, that isn't really saying THAT much.
 
[quote name='sgs89']If confirmed, she will replace Ginsburg as the most unattractive woman ever to sit on the SCOTUS. Of course, given that only 3 women have ever served, that isn't really saying THAT much.[/QUOTE]

Oh come on. I know you don't like her as a nominee, but you have to admit that she's far better looking than Ginsburg!
 
[quote name='sgs89']If confirmed, she will replace Ginsburg as the most unattractive woman ever to sit on the SCOTUS. Of course, given that only 3 women have ever served, that isn't really saying THAT much.[/QUOTE]

How attractive are rehnquest, scalia nad stevens?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']How attractive are rehnquest, scalia nad stevens?[/QUOTE]

They don't count because they are men. But, if you must know, Rehnquist is dead, Scalia is fat, and Stevens is old.
 
I don't know why people are all up in arms about Roberts.

given the options, I don't think there was any other choice. He's a good ole' catholic boy, but he's also a tight assed lawyer type - and I hate to admit it but that's a good thing in the, ahem, "SCOTUS" - I'll take a "by the book" laywer over a crazy wild motherfucker anyday.

Miers is a terrible pick, it's amazing but it has really brought these boards together :grouphug:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Way to reinforce patriarchy. :roll:[/QUOTE]

Please lighten up a little, Professor Murder.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']I don't know why people are all up in arms about Roberts.

given the options, I don't think there was any other choice. He's a good ole' catholic boy, but he's also a tight assed lawyer type - and I hate to admit it but that's a good thing in the, ahem, "SCOTUS" - I'll take a "by the book" laywer over a crazy wild motherfucker anyday.

Miers is a terrible pick, it's amazing but it has really brought these boards together :grouphug:[/QUOTE]

We actually agree on something. I will ignore your gratuitous Roberts comments -- he is, without question, a great pick for CJ -- and instead focus on your criticism of the Miers selection and your use of my term, SCOTUS. Good work!
 
[quote name='sgs89']If confirmed, she will replace Ginsburg as the most unattractive woman ever to sit on the SCOTUS. Of course, given that only 3 women have ever served, that isn't really saying THAT much.[/QUOTE]

you just made me hungry for a scotus sandwich.

mmm.mmmm.... good!!!

*reaches for dirty sock on floor*
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']I don't know why people are all up in arms about Roberts.

given the options, I don't think there was any other choice. He's a good ole' catholic boy, but he's also a tight assed lawyer type - and I hate to admit it but that's a good thing in the, ahem, "SCOTUS" - I'll take a "by the book" laywer over a crazy wild motherfucker anyday.

Miers is a terrible pick, it's amazing but it has really brought these boards together :grouphug:[/QUOTE]

But, politically, she may be the best liberals can hope for. If the democrats were to force a new nomination, would that bring out someone who more clearly leans right, or end up with a more moderate pick?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']But, politically, she may be the best liberals can hope for. If the democrats were to force a new nomination, would that bring out someone who more clearly leans right, or end up with a more moderate pick?[/QUOTE]

Michael Luttig would be ideal.
 
[quote name='sgs89']We actually agree on something. I will ignore your gratuitous Roberts comments -- he is, without question, a great pick for CJ -- and instead focus on your criticism of the Miers selection and your use of my term, SCOTUS. Good work![/QUOTE]

hey i supported the roberts nomination from the get-go.

and I also agree about Luttig, though with some reservation. After all, he is very buddy buddy with the... SCOTUS...
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']He's more liberal? I have no idea who this is.[/QUOTE]

More liberal? Hard to say, given that I haven't a clue about whether Miers is a liberal or a conservative from a judicial standpoint. No one does, because she is a stealth candidate -- that is part of the problem.

Luttig is more along the lines of Roberts -- very well credentialed (though not quite to the insane degree of Roberts), long-time judge on the appellate court, very smart. He is known as a "feeder judge" -- meaning that most of his clerks go on to clerk for the SCOTUS. They are all known as "Luttigators."
 
[quote name='sgs89']More liberal? Hard to say, given that I haven't a clue about whether Miers is a liberal or a conservative from a judicial standpoint. No one does, because she is a stealth candidate -- that is part of the problem.

Luttig is more along the lines of Roberts -- very well credentialed (though not quite to the insane degree of Roberts), long-time judge on the appellate court, very smart. He is known as a "feeder judge" -- meaning that most of his clerks go on to clerk for the SCOTUS. They are all known as "Luttigators."[/QUOTE]

Well my comment was only concerned with their political leanings, meaning would it be more likely to prevent a shift on the supreme court that would decisively favour conservatives. I'm not a judge, my concern is what I think is best overal for the country. I'd rather let one person, who may or may not be qualified, to sit on the supreme court and uphold decision like roe vs wade, than watch the most qualified person in the country strike it down.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Well my comment was only concerned with their political leanings, meaning would it be more likely to prevent a shift on the supreme court that would decisively favour conservatives. I'm not a judge, my concern is what I think is best overal for the country. I'd rather let one person, who may or may not be qualified, to sit on the supreme court and uphold decision like roe vs wade, than watch the most qualified person in the country strike it down.[/QUOTE]

That is where you and I differ. You are treating the courts as political animals, and they are not. It should not be about whether a judge adheres to your views on hot button issues. That is not upholding the rule of law. That is treating the judiciary as a super-legislature.
 
Wow, I can't believe I'm defending sgs89 here, but I agree that it is more important that they uphold the constitutional law (though I suppose we differ on exactly what that means) as opposed to reacting from knee jerk or even singular moral standpoints.

instead, they are a group of qualified individuals who give educated interpretations of the constitution and should handle cases accordingly.
 
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