Here we go again...

So they want to ban the sale of "M" rated games to minors... Isn't that the whole point of having a ratings system? So minors wouldn't be allowed to purchase/buy/etc "M" rated games?
 
"The two bills he is promoting would make it a crime for retailers to rent or sell such violent or sexually graphic material to minors, policing video games in much the same way as cigarettes and alcohol. "

I'm all for that. Sounds fine.

"And Illinois would create its own definition of what qualified as violent or sexually graphic — including titles "realistically depicting human-on-human violence" or realistic images of human genitalia, the governor said."

...no. it has to be nation wide at least to get this done right...oh wait, there already rated.
 
Personally, if a nationwide, government run enforcement on the sale of M Rated games is what it takes to get the likes of Joe Lieberman to quit blubbering about the horrors of video games, then I'm all for it. I'm 25, so it's not like it'd affect me in any way.
 
I think all M rated games should be sold that way anyways and fines should be enforced on places that do not follow the rules.
 
[quote name='ZForce']Personally, if a nationwide, government run enforcement on the sale of M Rated games is what it takes to get the likes of Joe Lieberman to quit blubbering about the horrors of video games, then I'm all for it. I'm 25, so it's not like it'd affect me in any way.[/quote]Exactly the way I feel about this.
 
[quote name='ZForce']Personally, if a nationwide, government run enforcement on the sale of M Rated games is what it takes to get the likes of Joe Lieberman to quit blubbering about the horrors of video games, then I'm all for it. I'm 25, so it's not like it'd affect me in any way.[/quote]

No, no, no. Video games are a form of ENTERTAINMENT much like music, movies and books. No one is screaming to send people to jail over a 16-year-old sneaking in to see Old School. Should there be regulations? Probably, but they are in place already. This is first amendment territory and the proposed laws will never withstand constitutional scrutiny. It may pass now but the first time someone gets prosecuted I can guarantee that the law gets struck down. God I hate people who advocate the elimination of basic freedoms that we have which make this country (USA) so great. Assholes.

EDIT: this is directed to the law makers, not the person I'm quoting. I quoted it because I don't think just because it doesn't affect you it doesn't matter. Sorry.
 
[quote name='javeryh'][quote name='ZForce']Personally, if a nationwide, government run enforcement on the sale of M Rated games is what it takes to get the likes of Joe Lieberman to quit blubbering about the horrors of video games, then I'm all for it. I'm 25, so it's not like it'd affect me in any way.[/quote]

No, no, no. Video games are a form of ENTERTAINMENT much like music, movies and books. No one is screaming to send people to jail over a 16-year-old sneaking in to see Old School. Should there be regulations? Probably, but they are in place already. This is first amendment territory and the proposed laws will never withstand constitutional scrutiny. It may pass now but the first time someone gets prosecuted I can guarantee that the law gets struck down. God I hate people who advocate the elimination of basic freedoms that we have which make this country (USA) so great. Assholes.

EDIT: this is directed to the law makers, not the person I'm quoting. I quoted it because I don't think just because it doesn't affect you it doesn't matter. Sorry.[/quote]

Exactly which basic freedom do you think grants the right for a retailer to sell a graphically violent or sexual piece of media to a minor? Its been found to be legal to restrict porn to non-minors, to restrict R and above rated movies to non-minors, and more.

First off, as a minor you do not have all of the rights inherent in the Constitution, without question. Secondly, nothing gives anyone, any right to purchase a product. The only right you could possibly fall back on is the right to freedom of speech on the part of the developers of the game.. however, that right only extends so far as to not cause damage to other individuals (this is why its illegal to yell fire in a crowded theatre, or why its illegal to incite a riot, or why its legal to ban minors from viewing, renting or purchasing an R rated movie.

This should have been in affect long ago. There is no need for a young child to be viewing games like Manhunt, GTA, The Guy Game or Liesure Suit Larry. And it most definitely would not be struck down in an appeals court.
 
I work with comics, and it gets a bit tougher when you dont HAVE a ratings system (at least, one that makes sense and is industry wide). When i did my register jockying at Kmart's electronics department, i carded everyone who looked even close to 18 buying an M rated game. I'm sorry, but im not going to make the argument of "The parents need to know what thier children are doing/buying/saying" null and void and completely out of thier hands
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb'][quote name='javeryh'][quote name='ZForce']Personally, if a nationwide, government run enforcement on the sale of M Rated games is what it takes to get the likes of Joe Lieberman to quit blubbering about the horrors of video games, then I'm all for it. I'm 25, so it's not like it'd affect me in any way.[/quote]

No, no, no. Video games are a form of ENTERTAINMENT much like music, movies and books. No one is screaming to send people to jail over a 16-year-old sneaking in to see Old School. Should there be regulations? Probably, but they are in place already. This is first amendment territory and the proposed laws will never withstand constitutional scrutiny. It may pass now but the first time someone gets prosecuted I can guarantee that the law gets struck down. God I hate people who advocate the elimination of basic freedoms that we have which make this country (USA) so great. Assholes.

EDIT: this is directed to the law makers, not the person I'm quoting. I quoted it because I don't think just because it doesn't affect you it doesn't matter. Sorry.[/quote]

Exactly which basic freedom do you think grants the right for a retailer to sell a graphically violent or sexual piece of media to a minor? Its been found to be legal to restrict porn to non-minors, to restrict R and above rated movies to non-minors, and more.

First off, as a minor you do not have all of the rights inherent in the Constitution, without question. Secondly, nothing gives anyone, any right to purchase a product. The only right you could possibly fall back on is the right to freedom of speech on the part of the developers of the game.. however, that right only extends so far as to not cause damage to other individuals (this is why its illegal to yell fire in a crowded theatre, or why its illegal to incite a riot, or why its legal to ban minors from viewing, renting or purchasing an R rated movie.

This should have been in affect long ago. There is no need for a young child to be viewing games like Manhunt, GTA, The Guy Game or Liesure Suit Larry. And it most definitely would not be struck down in an appeals court.[/quote]

The law will be struck down as void for vagueness. There's just no way to write it comprehensively so it can be interpreted in the same way by everyone who reads it. It has been attempted before with other forms of speech and the law always fails. It is not Illinois place to determine what is "excessively violent" to each individual person because it will vary from person to person. I understand theat the Constitution does not apply in the same way to minors but the fact is that this law would have a chilling effect on free speech and the courts will not uphold it.

The freedoms I was referring to was not a minor's right to buy the games but rather the game creator's right of expression. Why do you think there are not similar laws in effect for movies, music and books (which I firmly believe can affect a child 10 times more than playing any video game could)? And yes, you could argue that the game designers could still make the games but just not sell them to kids. However, that argument will ultimately fail because even though on it's face the law would not be banning the games outright, the secondary effect of the law will mean that these types of games will no longer be made. Retailers will eventually not carry them because the risk of jail/criminal offense is too great.

I'm not saying that regulations such as the kind in place now (i.e. small fines) are not going to withhold constitutional scrutiny but making it a criminal offense that carries jail time will never be upheld.
 
^^

Yes, it would be upheld as a criminal offense, although I hope you realize it wouldn't be to purchase said product.. only to the retailer selling said product.

You need to first re-read my reply, because I addressed some of the issues you brought back up... then explain how its been upheld that porn, R rated movies and other such very similar material can be regulated in the same manner.

Its legal, and it will happen, probably sooner rather than later.
 
[quote name='javeryh'][quote name='Cornfedwb'][quote name='javeryh'][quote name='ZForce']Personally, if a nationwide, government run enforcement on the sale of M Rated games is what it takes to get the likes of Joe Lieberman to quit blubbering about the horrors of video games, then I'm all for it. I'm 25, so it's not like it'd affect me in any way.[/quote]

No, no, no. Video games are a form of ENTERTAINMENT much like music, movies and books. No one is screaming to send people to jail over a 16-year-old sneaking in to see Old School. Should there be regulations? Probably, but they are in place already. This is first amendment territory and the proposed laws will never withstand constitutional scrutiny. It may pass now but the first time someone gets prosecuted I can guarantee that the law gets struck down. God I hate people who advocate the elimination of basic freedoms that we have which make this country (USA) so great. Assholes.

EDIT: this is directed to the law makers, not the person I'm quoting. I quoted it because I don't think just because it doesn't affect you it doesn't matter. Sorry.[/quote]

Exactly which basic freedom do you think grants the right for a retailer to sell a graphically violent or sexual piece of media to a minor? Its been found to be legal to restrict porn to non-minors, to restrict R and above rated movies to non-minors, and more.

First off, as a minor you do not have all of the rights inherent in the Constitution, without question. Secondly, nothing gives anyone, any right to purchase a product. The only right you could possibly fall back on is the right to freedom of speech on the part of the developers of the game.. however, that right only extends so far as to not cause damage to other individuals (this is why its illegal to yell fire in a crowded theatre, or why its illegal to incite a riot, or why its legal to ban minors from viewing, renting or purchasing an R rated movie.

This should have been in affect long ago. There is no need for a young child to be viewing games like Manhunt, GTA, The Guy Game or Liesure Suit Larry. And it most definitely would not be struck down in an appeals court.[/quote]

The law will be struck down as void for vagueness. There's just no way to write it comprehensively so it can be interpreted in the same way by everyone who reads it. It has been attempted before with other forms of speech and the law always fails. It is not Illinois place to determine what is "excessively violent" to each individual person because it will vary from person to person. I understand theat the Constitution does not apply in the same way to minors but the fact is that this law would have a chilling effect on free speech and the courts will not uphold it.

The freedoms I was referring to was not a minor's right to buy the games but rather the game creator's right of expression. Why do you think there are not similar laws in effect for movies, music and books (which I firmly believe can affect a child 10 times more than playing any video game could)? And yes, you could argue that the game designers could still make the games but just not sell them to kids. However, that argument will ultimately fail because even though on it's face the law would not be banning the games outright, the secondary effect of the law will mean that these types of games will no longer be made. Retailers will eventually not carry them because the risk of jail/criminal offense is too great.

I'm not saying that regulations such as the kind in place now (i.e. small fines) are not going to withhold constitutional scrutiny but making it a criminal offense that carries jail time will never be upheld.[/quote]

You seem to be convinced that this law is censoring the games. That would be against the law. But it is only restricting the sale, which as Cornfedwb has said in more words than I wish to write here is perfectly legal.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb']^^

Yes, it would be upheld as a criminal offense, although I hope you realize it wouldn't be to purchase said product.. only to the retailer selling said product.

You need to first re-read my reply, because I addressed some of the issues you brought back up... then explain how its been upheld that porn, R rated movies and other such very similar material can be regulated in the same manner.

Its legal, and it will happen, probably sooner rather than later.[/quote]

I know it would be a crime for the retailers and not the purchasers. Porn and rated R movies are regulated differently than alcohol and cigarettes. You have to look at standards of the community to determine what is/is not porn, etc. or use the famous "I know it when I see it" categorization. Video games would fall into the porn/movie category and I already said that they could be regulated but not by some overarching law banning "excessive content" - it's just too vague.
 
[quote name='Tromack']You seem to be convinced that this law is censoring the games. That would be against the law. But it is only restricting the sale, which as Cornfedwb has said in more words than I wish to write here is perfectly legal.[/quote]

The effect of the law is just as important as what the law actually says. There have been plenty of laws that say something like "it is a crime to sell pornographic material within 1000 feet of a school or church." Sounds good on it's face, right? Protect the kids and religious types.... that's got to be good. However, upon closer inspection of the place trying to enact the law you come to realize that everywhere in town is within 1000 feet of a school or church except for about 20 square feet of land. The effect of the law is to completely ban the sale of pornography (thus violating the first amendment) and gets struck down every time.
 
Content will be unaffected, only the 16 and under group are. Simple really.

I can see where the guys coming from though. A few movies have been sensored to make them R and not NC-17 for sales purposes...But that is still self censoring. they dont have to, unless they want money. Kinda sucks.
 
What is really bad is that a quaity game like Half-Life 2 has the same rating as the shock-fest GTA and games.

I believe games that go for shock value sould be rated AO, like GTA, mmanhunt, etc.

That way the media will back off of good games like Half-Life 2 and Halo 2.
 
[quote name='ZForce']No, no, no. Video games are a form of ENTERTAINMENT much like music, movies and books. No one is screaming to send people to jail over a 16-year-old sneaking in to see Old School.[/quote]
No but a kid "Sneaking out of the store" with a game is theft the same way "Sneaking" into a theater is and should be punishable by law. Now back to what was posted. A 14 year old kid should not have the right to purchase this game if it is nationally rated as mature just like he can not buy a ticket to a R or NC-17 rated movie or buy a beer and a pack of cigs.
[quote name='ZForce']
God I hate people who advocate the elimination of basic freedoms that we have which make this country (USA) so great. Assholes.[/quote]
The child will have the freedom to play the game if his parents feel it is acceptable for him and purchase it. No one is losing any rights with this.


Edit: Besides the average gamer is age 29 so this does not effect the gaming industry as much as some would think.

2nd Edit: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-05-12-gamer-demographics_x.htm
Before the Flames come here is a link.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']What is really bad is that a quaity game like Half-Life 2 has the same rating as the shock-fest GTA and games.

I believe games that go for shock value sould be rated AO, like GTA, mmanhunt, etc.

That way the media will back off of good games like Half-Life 2 and Halo 2.[/quote]

Please note the fact that the first game mentioned was Doom 3. As far as i can tell, nobody really cared that this came out, other than "it looks purdy". With that said, these news people make it seem like every 6 yr. old drove up to Target, bought the game, installed it at home and than instantly killed a puppy.
 
If this happens than say goodbye to a lot M rated games....
Why create a game when 30% or more of the people who buy it are going to have some trouble getting their hands on it. stupid move..I can't believe people want it. anyways, this is my first post. this site is the best.
 
Well, I don't think this is a situation where gamers are turning on gamers at all, I think the rating system is a very good thing and should be enforced. My only argument against it might be with first person shooters. Most FPS's automatically get M's (I would argue that Halo is much more deserving of a T rating than an M). But, with Columbine, its almost a guaranteed M.

That being said, parents have every right (and even an obligation) to witness what their kids are doing, and censor anything they need to. I wouldn't look kindly on a parent if their 11 year old had a subscription to Playboy. As games become more adult, there needs to be a way to separate games for everyone and games that are geared towards adults. That's what the rating system does.

For anyone against items being defended, think this way. Eventually, if we are going to say that everyone should be able to play every game, then every game needs to be acceptable for everyone. So, bye bye FPS's, bye bye GTA's. Bye bye any game above comic book violence.

So, in summary, I am for the rating system and any group that wants to push for the enforcement of it. I think those are good things. Now, groups that want to ban all M games is another thing, but banning sales of GTA SA until your 18 is not a bad thing for society (though, I do feel for the mature 17 year old who's parents won't let him or her get it).
 
newest reality show pitch.

scene 1:

opening: [Large groups of ATF and FBI agents sneak up to an average looking suburban house]

wide angle: [Agents use a battering ram to break down front door]

close up: Lead agent: (shouts) 'Go! Go! Go!'

steady cam: [follows group of agents entering house]

wide angle: kids/teenagers sitting on floor playing M rated game: [turns around to see strange men breaking into their home]

close up: Kid/Teenager: (very scared) '!!!??, MOMMY!!'


now casting for the role of 'kid/teenager.' please contact your local network affiliate.
 
[quote name='Mospeada_21']newest reality show pitch.

scene 1:

opening: [Large groups of ATF and FBI agents sneak up to an average looking suburban house]

wide angle: [Agents use a battering ram to break down front door]

close up: Lead agent: (shouts) 'Go! Go! Go!'

steady cam: [follows group of agents entering house]

wide angle: kids/teenagers sitting on floor playing M rated game: [turns around to see strange men breaking into their home]

close up: Kid/Teenager: (very scared) '!!!??, MOMMY!!'


now casting for the role of 'kid/teenager.' please contact your local network affiliate.[/quote]

:rofl:

and they could call it Destroy All Videogames.

this law won't have much effect on the group that tells mommy and daddy that they want XXXX mature game. if they parents are clueless the kid gets the game. someone will always end up supplying these games to minors. sad but true
 
[quote name='screwkick']Attention residents of Illinois, get your "M" rated video games while you can.[/quote]

don't worry.....we the residents of the other rogue/free states will be more than happy to smuggle/import those rare titles for you at a certain price.
 
It's sad that video games are held to such a different standard than other forms of entertainment.

If there are going to be laws against the sale of M-rated games to minors, then there should be similiar laws for movies and CDs....but there isnt. I dont think there is even a rating system for music. The whole situation is asinine.
 
im all for people being carded for video games. hell i got carded twice last week at toys are us and im almost 22!

i see no reason why kids should be playing games like hitman or manhunt. but if their parents feel they are mature enough to handle this, their parents could buy them for them.

id like to see the gaming community come out with "clean" versions of games (much like cds)

think gta w/o blood, swearing or nudity...(what would be left) would it still sell without the shock? thats what id like to know...
 
[quote name='keepmetalalive']If this happens than say goodbye to a lot M rated games....[/quote]

more like say goodbye to games that sell their products on nothing but shock value.
 
I'm 13. Needless to say, I don't want this to happen. Though, I doubt this will get to my state anytime soon--if it even happens in Illinois--I don't want this to happen. This sucks, and I couldn't hate the ppl that make it blatantly obvious they will follow through with this because they're 18+ any more right now.
 
the funny thing is this is going to end up being like cigs/alcohol, if this law is passed. someone is always going to be willing to get an M rated game for you. So there really is no big deal, except for those whose parents are part of the group pushing for this law.
 
[quote name='craven_fiend']the funny thing is this is going to end up being like cigs/alcohol, if this law is passed. someone is always going to be willing to get an M rated game for you. So there really is no big deal, except for those whose parents are part of the group pushing for this law.[/quote]

Very good point.
 
[quote name='XboxMaster']I'm 13. Needless to say, I don't want this to happen. Though, I doubt this will get to my state anytime soon--if it even happens in Illinois--I don't want this to happen. This sucks, and I couldn't hate the ppl that make it blatantly obvious they will follow through with this because they're 18+ any more right now.[/quote]

Then grow up and then maybe by the time you are 18, you will understand.

When you turn 18,19,20, you'll soon realize that most of the things you thought were so horrible at 13 weren't bad at all and you'll laugh at yourself for getting so worked up over them.
 
I think the current rating system is good enough. It should be up to the parents to know what games their children own and play. If you've raised your child correctly, a video game isn't going to turn him/her into a monster.

Where are the kids getting this money to drop on $50 games? At the least my parents would have had to drive me to the store to buy a game and would have been curious as to what game I bought.
 
I have a quick question about the laws for all you Illinois people. Does your new laws restrict the sell of M rated games over the web from companies that aren't located in your state and delivered to your home?
 
This is a great idea IMHO! Nothing annoys me more then to overhear 10 y/o kids talking about how far they have got in GTA or any other M game. KIDS SHOULD NOT PLAY M GAMES!!!!
I wish laws like this will be put in all 50 states then the government will have no reason to try to ban M games.
Games like GTA get a bad rep because kids are playing them.
 
You know the movie industry sort of police's themselves. If a movie theatre started letting kids watch r rated movies without an adult guess what, no more movies get sent to that theatre. If the video game industry itself would band together and do something similar no one would have to rely on the government beuracracy. The big box stores would probably still have there way but places like eb and other video game only stores would be out of luck.
 
Our local paper did a story on M rated games. They had some kids (ages 13 to 15) go into several stores (wal-mart, Gamecrazy, Gamestop, Target) and purchase GTA San Andreas.
 
[quote name='ResidentialEvil'][quote name='XboxMaster']I'm 13. Needless to say, I don't want this to happen. Though, I doubt this will get to my state anytime soon--if it even happens in Illinois--I don't want this to happen. This sucks, and I couldn't hate the ppl that make it blatantly obvious they will follow through with this because they're 18+ any more right now.[/quote]

Then grow up and then maybe by the time you are 18, you will understand.

When you turn 18,19,20, you'll soon realize that most of the things you thought were so horrible at 13 weren't bad at all and you'll laugh at yourself for getting so worked up over them.[/quote]

Yes, and by the time you're 25, what you worry about at 18,19 and 20 seems overly trivial.. and at 30, then what seemed important at 25 seems like a joke. I hope eventually to reach a point where I can look back and stop laughing at my younger self.
 
anyone feel it overly hypocritical to say that young people should not be able to play violent video games? How many of you did not play Mortal Kombat at 7? What about Eternal Champions?

There are a ton of examples I could use, but suffice it to say, I played a lot of these games when I was younger and do not understand the big deal. Your parent's should know what you are playing, and if they have a problem with it, they should not allow their kids to play it.
 
I don't see the big issue. The rating system is there for a reason, to warn parents/sellers of the content of the game. If a 10 year old goes to buy GTA:SA the store clerk should have common sense not to sell it to him/her. I'm glad it's being enforced, at least now they can't blame violence on video games. I know the 13-17 year olds are bitching, but if your mature enough to play them, your mature enough to ask a parent if it's ok to buy it (with your money or otherwise). I think it's futile to ban M rated games for minors, considering all the sources where kids can get violent material (Movies,6 o'clock news, Internet, TV, Parents,) it's all over the damn place, violent bravado sells, just like sex does. So I don't see how this will make kids less prone to doing homicidal things. I don't see my state banning GI JOE with his kunfu grip and his M16 because it may promote violence (or the other countless crap that may promote violence). I'm in a little paradox with this issue, but if this keeps soccer moms of the gaming industry's back, that's fine for me. Plus, if your a smart kid theres always a loop hole (I see high school kids smoking at the bus stop every morning, hmm wonder how they got those cigs?) :wink:

If they ban kids from playing it, that's totally wrong. It's a parents job to think if his/her kid is mature enough to handle the game. The government shouldn't tell parents how to raise there children, it should be up the parents.
 
Personally I'd rather the govt not step in and regulate gaming because they are under too much pressure by minorities (like soccer moms, Lieberman wanna-bes) to get the votes and they tend to go overboard.

The retailers need to be pressured to regulate themselves, but please please leave the govt out of making a nationwide blanket policy about what is allowed to be in a game and what is not. The only thing the govt should be allowed to do is have the right to fine people, but jail time is too severe for something so petty.

The more you become complacent, take action without thinking, and don't educate yourself you will find that the freedoms you have now are slipping away because you took them for granted.

I think I wrote a bit much ... oh well time to play some old Genesis games :p
 
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