Honduras Turmoil

Krymner

Krymner

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I have a couple of friends from Honduras, and have been in contact with them the last few days about the ousting of President Zelaya. I had heard about it in the news, but on all the news reports I had read or heard, none of them really got into the heart of the matter about WHY the president was kicked out. So, I went straight to the source, and here's more or less the order of events that occured:

-President Zelaya wants to change the Honduras constitution to extend presidential term limits

-In order to change the constitution, you must convene a special assembly. The president cannot do this, and only the Honduras congress can approve this assembly to consider any changes to the constitution.

-Zelaya couldn't get congress to do this, so he decided to go over their heads and tried to call his own assembly.

-He needs voting ballots for this assembly, which can only be printed by order of congress. Instead, he goes gets his buddy Hugo Chavez to print the ballots for him.

-The Honduras Supreme Court steps in and rules that Zelaya's referendum to call a special assembly is illegal and unconstitutional and he has overstepped the reach of his office.

-The Supreme Court tellss the military to ignore Zelaya's call to do the logistical work for the special assembly. General Romeo Velasquez tells Zelaya that the army will follow the commands of the supreme court.

-President Zelaya fires General Velasquez. The Supreme Court orders the president to reinstante him. Zelaya refuses.

-Zelaya decides that he'll distribute the ballots himself, so he organizes a mob and leads them to the military compound where the ballots are held, and begins to distribute them himself.

-Based on the Supreme Court ruling which said the proposed referendum was illegal, the Honduran attorney general proclaimed he would arrest anyone attempting to carry out the election.

-Zelaya was arrested and escorted out of the country.

Does this all sound like a military coup to you??? Every headline I've read has been about a military coup seizing power and kicking out the president. My friends from Honduras are appalled by the US news agencies and their glossing over of the facts.

Whatever President Zelaya's intentions, he BROKE THE LAW, and the attorney general and military were enforcing Honduran law and acted under a valid court order.

It really pisses off my friends, who actually voted for Obama, that Obama is taking the side of the law-breaker in this conflict. But it really doesn't surprise me at all. My friends like Zelaya too, and think he's done a really good job as president, and they wish that he could run for another term. However, they all agreed that he went to far and shouldn't have tried to do everything himself by defying the congress and courts.
 
An American president cannot support a military coup in Central or South America (or anywhere else for that matter) unless they want to set American foreign policy back 25 years. There are constitutions that permit the military to overthrow the president in a situation like this (see Turkey). The internal situation looks like it sucks, but I don't think America should be involved. This external situation is different and I think we're right to support Zelaya, even though I'm pretty sure the administration thinks he's a scumbag (which is why Obama refuses to meet with Zelaya when he comes to Washington DC tomorrow).

"It would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition rather than democratic elections," he added. "The region has made enormous progress over the last 20 years in establishing democratic traditions. ... We don't want to go back to a dark past."
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President Obama is dead on.
 
This was NOT a military coup. The military were acting upon the authority of the Honduras Supreme Court and the Honduras Attorney General. The military NEVER asssumed any power, they were merely caught between a power struggle of congress/courts and the president. Even the majority of people IN Honduras think Zelaya broke the law and most of them are appalled by how other countries are reporting their news. Obama's quote:

"It would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition rather than democratic elections,
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There was NO military coup. "Seeing a means of political transition?" The dude broke the law and was arrested and kicked out of the country for his own safety. What Obama is saying about "democratic elections" is irrelevant, because Zelaya's term was up later this year anway, and he was trying to change the constitution without consent of the democratically elected congress. Wheter he agreed with them or not, he should not have tried to force changes in the law. It would be the same as if Obama wanted to change some law without going thru the US congress.

Wheter you agree with what the dude was trying to do is honorable or not, the dude broke the law as stated by the Honduras Supreme Court, the highest court in that country.

What makes me upset, and my Honduran friends upset, is the US news reporting on the situation and getting the facts totally wrong. Everyone in Honduras knew Zelaya was going to be kicked out if he didn't stop. He had been warned repeatedly by the courts and the attorney general. His approval ratings with the people were on par with George Bush's when he was president here. After he was kicked out, the Honduras congress appointed a successor (the speaker of their congress) as per the Honduran constitution. The sucessor has already stated he will step down after elections are held later this year.
 
Yeah it's sensationalism. When I read military coup I thought that there was some Hitleresque business going on but it looks like the entire country just told him to piss off.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']"Stupid Mexicans."-quote from an unnamed former United States President With the Lowest Approval Rating Evar!!!!!.[/QUOTE]


fixed.


And where does he go?? Costa Rica :roll:
 
I can see why the President Obama won't publicly support this. They shouldn't have used the military to boot him out but start something like the impeachment process.
 
[quote name='winterice']I can see why the President Obama won't publicly support this. They shouldn't have used the military to boot him out but start something like the impeachment process.[/QUOTE]

If their laws state their military is required to forcibly remove their president after he or she breaks their law, where is their problem?
 
Sounds like the Honduran military was just doing their job. Zelaya thought he could pull some Chavez hijinks but got the hook. Good for Honduras. It looks like checks and balances actually work there.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Did the US say it was OK for Honduras to kick Zelaya out of the country?[/QUOTE]
The day before the "coup":
TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, Jan. 30, 2009 – The commander of U.S. Southern Command arrived here yesterday to reaffirm the United States’ strategic partnership with Honduras and praise the solid bilateral and interagency cooperation that is delivering tangible success.
...
Declaring an “excellent state of cooperation between our two militaries,” [Navy Adm. James G.] Stavridis lauded tremendous progress within Honduras’ 11,000-member military.
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From the WSJ:
The Obama administration and members of the Organization of American States had worked for weeks to try to avert any moves to overthrow President Zelaya, said senior U.S. officials. Washington's ambassador to Honduras, Hugo Llorens, sought to facilitate a dialogue between the president's office, the Honduran parliament and the military.

The efforts accelerated over the weekend, as Washington grew increasingly alarmed. "The players decided, in the end, not to listen to our message," said one U.S. official involved in the diplomacy. On Sunday, the U.S. embassy here tried repeatedly to contact the Honduran military directly, but was rebuffed. Washington called the removal of President Zelaya a coup and said it wouldn't recognize any other leader.

The U.S. stand was unpopular with Honduran deputies. One congressman, Toribio Aguilera, got prolonged applause from his colleagues when he urged the U.S. ambassador to reconsider. Mr. Aguilera said the U.S. didn't understand the danger that Mr. Zelaya and his friendships with Mr. Chavez and Cuba's Fidel Castro posed.
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So it appears that we were trying to stop it from happening. Why or to what end I'm not sure.

Is there no mechanism for impeachment proceedings?
 
[quote name='speedracer']So it appears that we were trying to stop it from happening. Why or to what end I'm not sure.

Is there no mechanism for impeachment proceedings?[/QUOTE]

For who? Zelaya or Obama?
 
[quote name='speedracer']The day before the "coup":

From the WSJ:

So it appears that we were trying to stop it from happening. Why or to what end I'm not sure.

Is there no mechanism for impeachment proceedings?[/QUOTE]

It's probably more innocent that you all are making it out to be. Ousted president and a mobilized military make for a destabilized nation or so they thought. No one wants civil war to break out in Honduras.

I don't think we should've gone down there but it's just an extension of the Monroe Doctrine. Anything that happens in the Western Hemisphere has to go through us first.
 
I hope Hilary remembers her husband's attempts at restoring an ousted Latin America ruler. Haiti is STILL a huge mess. Not saying it wasn't bad before Clinton came in, but our US meddling didn't help one bit, and only made things worse in the long run.

And that's one of the big reasons why Latin American countries don't care much for us. We meddle, do things one way. Then another US president gets in charge and meddles to do things the other way. We're constantly playing both sides, and its the people caught in the middle who are hurt. This is one reason why such anti-american leaders like Hugo Chavez have grown in power.

Obama and the US just needs to butt the hell out, and tell the rest of the world to do the same.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']For who? Zelaya or Obama?[/QUOTE]
Oh, you. You're so coy. You rascal.
[quote name='depascal22']It's probably more innocent that you all are making it out to be. Ousted president and a mobilized military make for a destabilized nation or so they thought. No one wants civil war to break out in Honduras.[/quote]
Totally. I think that's very likely.
I don't think we should've gone down there but it's just an extension of the Monroe Doctrine. Anything that happens in the Western Hemisphere has to go through us first.
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I can't imagine trying to stop a coup to be a bad decision in virtually all cases. Maybe the generals thought we would play ball if they forced our hand? Who knows.

I think I agree with you about 95% Krymner. I think we should butt out too, but at the same time we have a stake in this because if the generals did tell us to piss off (which seems fairly likely), how helpful should we really be?
 
I think Krymner is stressing there wasn't a coup in the negative aspect of the word. Yes, military members removed a president from power, but they handed the government back to the legislature.
 
He deserved to be kicked out. I'd translate some stuff for you guys that I read in the local Honduran newspaper, where the director of human rights for the country basically stated that the international community had no right to be telling them what to do, because none of them has had to put up with Zelaya's crap. Such as kicking out the democratically elected vice president and putting in one of his hand picked cronies. But I'm too lazy right now.
 
I still think some of you are missing the point. Yes, the guy needed to to be removed but did they do it correctly? What exactly is Honduras's law for impeachment of a government official? Couldn't they have detain the man and then start an impeachment process?

The order of event seems to be: President goes bat-shit-crazy; other government officials recognize he's gone insane; military is then order to arrest President; and then the President gets exile.

Where's due process? And that's why I don't think President Obama will publicly support this removal even if privately he believes it was necessary.

Of course, if it comes out that they did everything by the book, then I'm with you guys. Hell, I already with you guys it's just the removal method that needs to be clarified.
 
Honestly, I think there's more to the story about the military removing him from the country that isn't getting out, but I don't want to sound like a wacko conspiracy theorist.
ZOMG! G.W. and Bin Laden! It was an inside job!!!
:roll:
 
[quote name='Krymner']Honestly, I think there's more to the story about the military removing him from the country that isn't getting out, but I don't want to sound like a wacko conspiracy theorist.
ZOMG! G.W. and Bin Laden! It was an inside job!!!
:roll:
[/QUOTE]

Oh, let's have it. It can't be any more incorrect than what the American MSM is feeding to the public.
 
According to my mom, who has a much higher spanish ability than me, the military had the obligation to arrest him. They messed it up when they exiled him to Costa Rica. So when he comes back Honduras they need to arrest him and put him on trial. It shouldn't take long to convict him since the supreme court already said he was in the wrong.

Liked I posted earlier, he hand picked the vice president, which is against the constitution.

He was also giving papers (passports, citizenship) to Nicaraguans to come vote in his favor for the upcoming referendum to eliminate term limits. He was busing them into the country.
 
Kind of like Operation Snowbird? Zelaya sounds like he got his political training up here in the States.

Do you guys think Zelaya will risk prison to go back to Honduras? It seems that every politician tries to sneak back and start rabble rousing as soon as they can. Napoleon didn't stay on Elbe for long and they said if he left the island, it's his head.
 
Nah, his plane wasn't allowed to land.

He's in Washington meeting with Clinton now.

My sources say that some of his supporters in Honduras are doing everything they can to incite a civil war so they can overthrow the government, easily rewrite the constitution, and set Zelaya up as another Hugo Chavez. That's about the only way he'd ever get back at this point. The dude is opposed by all branches of the Honduran government (even his own party don't want him back).

Its funny how my friend showed me several news articles where they were trying to make the whole Honduras problem a rich vs. poor battle by saying the poor was backing Zelaya and rising up against the mean rich folk running the government. Even tho most of Zelaya's supporters are poor, its not a rich vs. poor thing. Most of the poor hate him too. Its a freedom vs. socialism battle, period.
 
[quote name='XxFuRy2Xx']He deserved to be kicked out. I'd translate some stuff for you guys that I read in the local Honduran newspaper, where the director of human rights for the country basically stated that the international community had no right to be telling them what to do, because none of them has had to put up with Zelaya's crap. Such as kicking out the democratically elected vice president and putting in one of his hand picked cronies. But I'm too lazy right now.[/QUOTE]

I kinda wish you, or krymner, would provide us with some of the within-honduras media perspective.

my 1-minute Honduran glossover on CNN at the end of each Michael Jackson-packed hour is insufficient.
 
If I get some spare time and stop being a lazy bastard, I'll translate some articles from La Prensa de Honduras (Honduras Newspaper). I suppose it'll help me improve my Spanish, which won't be a bad thing since I need to take an exam at school for my foreign language requirement.
 
If it's not Michael Jackson, the stimulus bill, the recession, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Iran, or Europe, it's not news.

No one cares about some tiny country in Central America until all the tiny countries in Central America are socialist friends of Hugonezeula.
 
[quote name='depascal22']If it's not Michael Jackson,, the stimulus bill, the recession, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Iran, or Europe, it's not news.[/QUOTE]

Have you watched the news this week? :)
 
Alright fellas, I did some translation work. Please keep in mind that I'm not a pro translator, so it won't be perfect, but hopefully you get the gist of the article.

Title: Zelaya wasn't president when he was detained

When Manuel Zelaya Rosales was exiled from Honduras on Sunday, June 28th, he was no longer President, so there was no coup as the international community insists, said ex-president of the Supreme Court, Vilma Morales.

On Saturday, June 27th, executive decree PCM-020-2009, dated 25th of June, Zelaya resigned ipso facto, according to article 239 of the Republic’s constitution, added Morales. In a survey, considered illegal by the justice tribunals, Zelaya and his cabinet would ask on Sunday the 28th: “Do you agree that a 4th ballot box should be added to the 2009 general election that would call for an Assembly of the National Constituency? Yes…..or…..No?”

Article 239 of the Carta Magna indicates: “The citizen who holds the power of the Excutive cannot [once again] be elected as president.

Whoever violates this regulation or proposes their [own] reform, as well as those who aid directly or indirectly will immediately relinquish their positions, and will not be able to participate as a public official for 10 years.”

Asking for the 4th ballot box was the action that immediately suspended him as President, as simply asking for it goes against the constitution, in which article 239 states that anyone trying to repeal this article will be punished by being stripped of power and not be able to serve as a public official for 10 years. This obligated the Public Ministry, who had already warned him, to require him to face the courts and the Supreme Court of Justice to order his capture.

The constitution defends itself

According to Morales, exiled ex-president of the Republic, Manuel Zelaya, should face justice from the common tribunals of justice.

The ex-magistrate pointed out that the Carta Magna has the mechanisms to defend itself with article 239, which establishes that anyone who even attempts to repeal its articles will immediately relinquish their position and will be unable to serve as a public official for 10 years.

That is what Zelaya attempted when he initiated the survey aimed at putting forth the 4th ballot box, which would repeal the constitution’s 379 articles, eight of which can’t be repealed or amended.

The ex-president of the court explained that article 239 presents in detail: anyone threatening the constitution or going against what’s stated in the constitution, because it’s not permitted, [which includes] an alternate election or a successive election. Anyone going against these regulations must immediately relinquish their position.

“The constitution defends itself. It strips of power those who attempt to repeal it and for that reason the moment the decree was released, Zelaya relinquished his position, he threw himself out, a self-coup once he went against constitutional norms. Zelaya violated the Carta Magna whenever the opportunity presented itself, said ex-president of the court.

“He did it when the tribunal told him that decree PCM05-2009 that was released on March 23rd was illegal, as it violated article 5 of the constitution and article 15 of the Law of the Electorate, as the only institution with the ability to have a process of consultation is the Supreme Tribunal Electorate and not the Executive. ‘He assumes that he wants to repeal the constitution after breaking the judicial decision that prohibited decree PCM05-2009; on May 27th, 2009 the judge stated that the decree was null and void, as well as any other administrative act with the objective of starting the process of consultation.

As for the military, Vilma Morales said that they hadn’t acted earlier because they couldn’t without a judicial order.
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The rest of the article goes on about how he will get tried as a normal citizen. I'm just tired at this point, so I stopped there.

Source: La Prensa Honduras

Don't expect me to do this too often, as it's one hell of a time sink. Especially with all of the legal talk. It took me about 2 hours to do that much....
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I kinda wish you, or krymner, would provide us with some of the within-honduras media perspective.

my 1-minute Honduran glossover on CNN at the end of each Michael Jackson-packed hour is insufficient.[/QUOTE]

I getting really sick of your attitude.

Honduran problems are much smaller than ours.

WE have to elect a new King of Pop.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I kinda wish you, or krymner, would provide us with some of the within-honduras media perspective.

my 1-minute Honduran glossover on CNN at the end of each Michael Jackson-packed hour is insufficient.[/QUOTE]

You actually get a minute per hour of non-MJ? Wow, CNN is better than I thought. Unless you meant day.
 
The wackyness of this story just keeps getting more peculiar. This is a translation from a news report from a Honduras newspapers:

[FONT=times new roman,times]Several computers containing the results of the referendum Zelaya wanted to conduct are seized at the Presidential Palace[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]The National Directors of Criminal Investigation seized various computers from the Presidential Palace that had recorded the supposed results of the referendum to reform the constitution that the deposed leader, Manuel Zelaya, was planning to conduct on July 28, the day he was removed from office.

The official investigation now deals with the possible crime of fraud and falsification of documents due to the fact that some of the certified voting results had been filled with the personal information of individuals that supposedly participated in the failed referendum that did not take place because of the coup.

One of the district attorneys that participated in the operation that took place this Friday showed reporters an official voting result from the Technical Institute Luis Bogran, of Tegucigalpa, in which the specific number of people that participated in table 345, where there were 550 ballots, 450 of which were votes in favor of Zelaya's proposal and 30 were against, in addition to 20 blank ballots and 30 ballots, which were nullified.

The seizure took place on the third floor of the building attached to the Ministry of the Presidency that had been rented to the ex-minister of the Interior, Enrique Flores Lanza. The deputy district attorney, Roberto Ramirez, declared this area as a "crime scene" and, although he did not want to provide further details, said that further evidence had been found that could be categorized as crimes of fraud, embezzlement of funds, falsification of documents, and abuse of authority. [/FONT]
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Nothing from the US media on this yet, although it is possible they may just be taking time to validate the authentication of the story since it just came out on Friday. But if its true, this cat Zelaya is one slick dude with some big-ass balls if he'd already put the results on his computer of a vote that never even took place.

After some talks broke down recently, he's decided to sneak back into Honduras and start his own armed uprising. This could get real interesting. And possibly alot more violent.
 
[quote name='Krymner']The wackyness of this story just keeps getting more peculiar. This is a translation from a news report from a Honduras newspapers:



Nothing from the US media on this yet, although it is possible they may just be taking time to validate the authentication of the story since it just came out on Friday. But if its true, this cat Zelaya is one slick dude with some big-ass balls if he'd already put the results on his computer of a vote that never even took place.

After some talks broke down recently, he's decided to sneak back into Honduras and start his own armed uprising. This could get real interesting. And possibly alot more violent.[/QUOTE]

Right out of the Hugo Chavez playbook.
 
That's fascinating stuff. Thank, as always, for the info, krymner.

Really puts into perspective just whom it might be that other nations are supporting.
 
Well I guess I have to cross Honduras off my list of potential places to escape to..... For the time being.

Have to hand it to these Latin countries though; at least their governments punch you in the face, turn you around, tear off your pants, rape you, take your wallet, and leave. Then it's all over and you can go back to your hamster wheel knowing they'll come do it again in a couple of decades.

In our country we get foreplay for a decade or two from an invisible entity with a sexy whispering voice behind us, followed by a massage for a few decades which leads to some necking. Just when we relax we are surprised to notice there is a finger in our rectums which makes us uncomfortable - but the whisper in our ear saying " trust me, it's all going to be ok, Europeans do it all the time and they are fine" keeps us from resisting. By the time we notice we're handcuffed to the bed post and decide to turn our heads around to finally notice the towering evil giant voltron-esque horror-bot about to stick it's giant industrial sized 'Slap Chop' phalus into our stretched out holes, it's much to late to stop.
 
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I think he writes slashfic.

"towering evil giant voltron-esque horror-bot about to stick it's giant industrial sized 'Slap Chop' phalus into our stretched out holes"

Really? That's as good as it gets?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well I guess I have to cross Honduras off my list of potential places to escape to..... For the time being.

Have to hand it to these Latin countries though; at least their governments punch you in the face, turn you around, tear off your pants, rape you, take your wallet, and leave. Then it's all over and you can go back to your hamster wheel knowing they'll come do it again in a couple of decades.

In our country we get foreplay for a decade or two from an invisible entity with a sexy whispering voice behind us, followed by a massage for a few decades which leads to some necking. Just when we relax we are surprised to notice there is a finger in our rectums which makes us uncomfortable - but the whisper in our ear saying " trust me, it's all going to be ok, Europeans do it all the time and they are fine" keeps us from resisting. By the time we notice we're handcuffed to the bed post and decide to turn our heads around to finally notice the towering evil giant voltron-esque horror-bot about to stick it's giant industrial sized 'Slap Chop' phalus into our stretched out holes, it's much to late to stop.[/QUOTE]

If you had read Krymner's translations, you would realize the military are the good guys in this ONE instance.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I think he writes slashfic.

"towering evil giant voltron-esque horror-bot about to stick it's giant industrial sized 'Slap Chop' phalus into our stretched out holes"

Really? That's as good as it gets?[/QUOTE]

Well of course depending on demographics, environmental conditions, and how many times as a youngster a family member smiled when seeing you naked, the above scenario may not be all bad to everyone.

That said, insomnia is a bitch...
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well of course depending on demographics, environmental conditions, and how many times as a youngster a family member smiled when seeing you naked, the above scenario may not be all bad to everyone.

That said, insomnia is a bitch...[/QUOTE]

When are you moving to Ecuador?
I need a bug out location on a different continent.
 
My plans are hampered by waiting for my wife to get her damn degree. She got on the ballroom dance touring team and now thinks she needs to drag it on as long as possible.

Still dream about leaving daily though.
 
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