How does one get into law school?
- Thread starter Zen Davis
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You need to graduate with a high GPA and take the LSAT's.
[quote name='Machine']Step 1 - Graduate from college
Step 2 - Take the LSAT
Step 3 - Apply to law schools
Your LSAT and your undergraduate GPA are the two most important things law schools look at when deciding whether or not to admit you.[/quote]
This is all there is to it. As far as majors go, anything will work but if your cousin wants to be a patent/IP lawyer then he should think about getting an engineering or science degree. If he wants to be a corporate/T&E/tax lawyer, then accounting or some type of business (not marketing) is a good major. If he doesn't know what type of lawyer he wants to be then I'd recommend getting a business degree because it's the most generic and he can still get a job after college if he decides not to go to law school - a lot can change in 4 years. Also, 95% of law school students take the easy way out and major in English, Government, Sociology, etc. and then complain that law school is hard when in fact it's a joke if you had any type of real major in college.
Step 2 - Take the LSAT
Step 3 - Apply to law schools
Your LSAT and your undergraduate GPA are the two most important things law schools look at when deciding whether or not to admit you.[/quote]
This is all there is to it. As far as majors go, anything will work but if your cousin wants to be a patent/IP lawyer then he should think about getting an engineering or science degree. If he wants to be a corporate/T&E/tax lawyer, then accounting or some type of business (not marketing) is a good major. If he doesn't know what type of lawyer he wants to be then I'd recommend getting a business degree because it's the most generic and he can still get a job after college if he decides not to go to law school - a lot can change in 4 years. Also, 95% of law school students take the easy way out and major in English, Government, Sociology, etc. and then complain that law school is hard when in fact it's a joke if you had any type of real major in college.
pittpizza
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jav's advice is good. Nowadays (at least as recently as 2004), you have to sign up for the LSAC. I think the website is www.LSAC.org. This is a service that works with the applicant. Basically the applicant sends their college transcripts, letters of recommendations, and LSAT (
[quote name='pittpizza']Philosophy was extremely helpful to me personally b/c spending 6 hours a day talking about questions that have no "right" answer really drove some of the students with "hard science" backgrounds crazy. Philosphy helps the lawyer get a head start on learning that the answer to unanswerable questions is not as important as the arguments and reasoning used to get there.[/quote]
Heh, it's funny you look at it that way - I thought my engineering degree helped me cut through the bullshit and find a concise answer to the issues at hand.
Heh, it's funny you look at it that way - I thought my engineering degree helped me cut through the bullshit and find a concise answer to the issues at hand.
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Apossum
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[quote name='javeryh']. Also, 95% of law school students take the easy way out and major in English, Government, Sociology, etc. and then complain that law school is hard when in fact it's a joke if you had any type of real major in college.[/QUOTE]
huh, and here I was thinking the hundreds of pages of reading a week and frequent papers I'm assigned as a soc major would help prepare me for law school.
Zen Davis-- I think a lot of it depends on where your cousin wants to go. there are definitely middle to lower tier law schools that'll get him that degree without the need for a 4.0 undergrad GPA.
huh, and here I was thinking the hundreds of pages of reading a week and frequent papers I'm assigned as a soc major would help prepare me for law school.
Zen Davis-- I think a lot of it depends on where your cousin wants to go. there are definitely middle to lower tier law schools that'll get him that degree without the need for a 4.0 undergrad GPA.
Reading this topic is making me want to change my major (currently double majoring in Political Science & Economics). Bastards. I don't even think I want to go to law school anymore, though. Lawyers don't make enough money, anyway. Or perhaps I'm just trying to convince myself that it isn't worth the effort. Anyway, I'm thinking your LSAT score is more important than your GPA when applying to law school. Depending on the school, of course.
Maklershed
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[quote name='Zen Davis']How does one get into law school?[/quote]The door.
pittpizza
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Yeah I think Philosophy helped me prepare for lawschool and practice in several ways.
(1) The classes Logic, and Advanced Symbolic Logic really helped me with the logic games section of the LSATs.
(2) It got me used to spending all day in class talking about "the grey area." (For non-lawyers, the first year in lawschool is pretty uniformly spent talking about things there are no right answers to, policy questions and the meaning of ambiguous words where arguments and interpretations can be used on both sides).
(3) The judge that hired me pointed it out in my interview so I think it was an additional factor in getting hired for that job.
(1) The classes Logic, and Advanced Symbolic Logic really helped me with the logic games section of the LSATs.
(2) It got me used to spending all day in class talking about "the grey area." (For non-lawyers, the first year in lawschool is pretty uniformly spent talking about things there are no right answers to, policy questions and the meaning of ambiguous words where arguments and interpretations can be used on both sides).
(3) The judge that hired me pointed it out in my interview so I think it was an additional factor in getting hired for that job.
sgs89
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Step 1: Think long and hard about whether you REALLY want to become a lawyer.
Step 2: Do well in college.
Step 3: Think again, long and hard, about whether you REALLY want to become a lawyer.
Step 4: Take the LSAT.
Step 5: Think again. No, really, think hard about it.
Step 6: Apply to law schools. Only top tier. If you can't get into the top tier, don't bother. Seriously. Lower tier law schools are a one-way ticket to mega-debt and limited job prospects.
Step 7: You guessed it, think again.
Step 8: And again.
Step 9: Go to a top ten law school.
Step 10: Reevaluate your decision afer your 1L year.
Full disclosure: I followed these steps and still became a lawyer.
Step 2: Do well in college.
Step 3: Think again, long and hard, about whether you REALLY want to become a lawyer.
Step 4: Take the LSAT.
Step 5: Think again. No, really, think hard about it.
Step 6: Apply to law schools. Only top tier. If you can't get into the top tier, don't bother. Seriously. Lower tier law schools are a one-way ticket to mega-debt and limited job prospects.
Step 7: You guessed it, think again.
Step 8: And again.
Step 9: Go to a top ten law school.
Step 10: Reevaluate your decision afer your 1L year.
Full disclosure: I followed these steps and still became a lawyer.
Don't forget you can take the LSAT (or the GRE if you're looking to just get a Masters) before you graduate. A lot of schools recommend taking time off, but a couple of my friends went right to grad/law school out of college, so you don't need to get your degree first and then take the tests.
[quote name='javeryh']Heh, it's funny you look at it that way - I thought my engineering degree helped me cut through the bullshit and find a concise answer to the issues at hand. [/QUOTE]
You are a corporate lawyer, right? I didn't realize that you had a technical background as well. What made you choose corporate over patents/IP?
I have a MS in chemistry, and have worked in the pharmaceutical industry for the last 6 years. I am 31, and am very likely at the highest level that I can attain with my degree. (Getting a promotion would require alot of people above me leaving, which isn't realistically going to happen anytime soon.) It seems like there is alot more opportunity for someone with my background to get into patent law, however I don't know the best way to go about this endeavor.
I work ~12+ hour days plus weekends as it is, so fitting in law school would be very challenging. I am not in a position to quit my job to go to school. From what I have heard from a colleague's wife (patent lawyer), it is very important to go to a prestigious school in order to even have a chance. I am a bit concerned that going to night school may be a gamble, since I have seen alot of people who have MBA degrees that they are not able to use. (I am in the Philadelphia area, so most likely I would be considering Temple.)
I have considered the patent agent route as a way to "get my foot in the door," but don't know the best way of going about studying the MPEP. I have been warned that there is a really high fail rate for this, and that I would be best served to take a preparation course. I noticed that there were not alot of prep books even on Amazon for this, let alone at a local bookstore.
Do you have any suggestions or advice? Thanks!
[/QUOTE]You are a corporate lawyer, right? I didn't realize that you had a technical background as well. What made you choose corporate over patents/IP?
I have a MS in chemistry, and have worked in the pharmaceutical industry for the last 6 years. I am 31, and am very likely at the highest level that I can attain with my degree. (Getting a promotion would require alot of people above me leaving, which isn't realistically going to happen anytime soon.) It seems like there is alot more opportunity for someone with my background to get into patent law, however I don't know the best way to go about this endeavor.
I work ~12+ hour days plus weekends as it is, so fitting in law school would be very challenging. I am not in a position to quit my job to go to school. From what I have heard from a colleague's wife (patent lawyer), it is very important to go to a prestigious school in order to even have a chance. I am a bit concerned that going to night school may be a gamble, since I have seen alot of people who have MBA degrees that they are not able to use. (I am in the Philadelphia area, so most likely I would be considering Temple.)
I have considered the patent agent route as a way to "get my foot in the door," but don't know the best way of going about studying the MPEP. I have been warned that there is a really high fail rate for this, and that I would be best served to take a preparation course. I noticed that there were not alot of prep books even on Amazon for this, let alone at a local bookstore.
Do you have any suggestions or advice? Thanks!
elwood731
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[quote name='javeryh']Also, 95% of law school students take the easy way out and major in English, Government, Sociology, etc. and then complain that law school is hard when in fact it's a joke if you had any type of real major in college.[/QUOTE]
Majors are as difficult as you make them, generally. I know many people who coasted through school with business/engineering degrees, and many who worked themselves silly earning an Englsih degree. Of course, you can also earn an Englsih degree never reading a single assigned work. You will turn out an idiot on the subject of literature, however.
Majors are as difficult as you make them, generally. I know many people who coasted through school with business/engineering degrees, and many who worked themselves silly earning an Englsih degree. Of course, you can also earn an Englsih degree never reading a single assigned work. You will turn out an idiot on the subject of literature, however.
[quote name='elwood731']Majors are as difficult as you make them, generally. I know many people who coasted through school with business/engineering degrees, and many who worked themselves silly earning an Englsih degree. Of course, you can also earn an Englsih degree never reading a single assigned work. You will turn out an idiot on the subject of literature, however.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I'm a communications major, but I do spend a lot of time watching media and trying to understand what works, what doesn't, and have a genuine interest in it. Most of my classmates though are absolute idiots. I don't know how you can major in TV and Film Production and never have seen any of the greatest TV Shows/Films of all time.
I agree. I'm a communications major, but I do spend a lot of time watching media and trying to understand what works, what doesn't, and have a genuine interest in it. Most of my classmates though are absolute idiots. I don't know how you can major in TV and Film Production and never have seen any of the greatest TV Shows/Films of all time.
[quote name='daria19']You are a corporate lawyer, right? I didn't realize that you had a technical background as well. What made you choose corporate over patents/IP?
I have a MS in chemistry, and have worked in the pharmaceutical industry for the last 6 years. I am 31, and am very likely at the highest level that I can attain with my degree. (Getting a promotion would require alot of people above me leaving, which isn't realistically going to happen anytime soon.) It seems like there is alot more opportunity for someone with my background to get into patent law, however I don't know the best way to go about this endeavor.
I work ~12+ hour days plus weekends as it is, so fitting in law school would be very challenging. I am not in a position to quit my job to go to school. From what I have heard from a colleague's wife (patent lawyer), it is very important to go to a prestigious school in order to even have a chance. I am a bit concerned that going to night school may be a gamble, since I have seen alot of people who have MBA degrees that they are not able to use. (I am in the Philadelphia area, so most likely I would be considering Temple.)
I have considered the patent agent route as a way to "get my foot in the door," but don't know the best way of going about studying the MPEP. I have been warned that there is a really high fail rate for this, and that I would be best served to take a preparation course. I noticed that there were not alot of prep books even on Amazon for this, let alone at a local bookstore.
Do you have any suggestions or advice? Thanks![/quote]
I went to law school with every intention of becoming a patent/IP lawyer but when I started taking classes my second year of law school and started doing patent work as a summer associate I quickly realized I hated all the reading and writing... oh, and the research too. That didn't leave me many options so that's how I ended up practicing corporate law. I'm not passionate about it at all but it pays the bills.
Whoever posted that laywers don't make good money is crazy and you don't have to to to a Top 10 school either - I went to a second tier law school (Top 50) and got a job in NYC at a very prestigious firm. Starting salaries in NYC across the board right now are $145,000 + bonus (generally $30,000 at most places). I did graduate near the top of my class though which is 100% mandatory in order to snag one of those jobs unless you go to a Top 10 law school. The money was the ONLY reason I decided to go though - after college I quickly realized that I was never going to be financially well off unless I changed career paths. If I could do it all over again I don't think I'd become a lawyer - most people I work with are assholes, the work is very dry and not creative at all and the hours completely suck. They chew you up and spit you out. Plus, although I live in a nicer neighborhood and have a little more pocket money, my life isn't that much better financially since I became a lawyer. Most of my friends are pretty much similarly situated and are not lawyers. Maybe there's a giant payoff after I put in 10 years or something but I doubt it. I'm not looking to be a partner at a firm somewhere.
I met a lot of people in law school in your exact position - they found the time to go to school at night and work during the day. Studying for exams would be the toughest part I think. One guy I knew took the patent bar during his second year to become a patent agent and then when he graduated law school he became a patent lawyer. There are very few people who have tecnical degrees and go to law school - if you did go you would NEVER have to worry about having a job because patent lawyers are in such high demand. I think if you want to do it you should or else you would be thinking "what if" for the rest of your life. Just be sure it's what you want. I also know a lot of lawyers who love their jobs but I think they are all nuts. Also, STUDY YOUR ASS OFF - you'd have to basically work and study 24 hours a day for a year to get the dream job (first year grades are all that matter).
That's my $.02.
I have a MS in chemistry, and have worked in the pharmaceutical industry for the last 6 years. I am 31, and am very likely at the highest level that I can attain with my degree. (Getting a promotion would require alot of people above me leaving, which isn't realistically going to happen anytime soon.) It seems like there is alot more opportunity for someone with my background to get into patent law, however I don't know the best way to go about this endeavor.
I work ~12+ hour days plus weekends as it is, so fitting in law school would be very challenging. I am not in a position to quit my job to go to school. From what I have heard from a colleague's wife (patent lawyer), it is very important to go to a prestigious school in order to even have a chance. I am a bit concerned that going to night school may be a gamble, since I have seen alot of people who have MBA degrees that they are not able to use. (I am in the Philadelphia area, so most likely I would be considering Temple.)
I have considered the patent agent route as a way to "get my foot in the door," but don't know the best way of going about studying the MPEP. I have been warned that there is a really high fail rate for this, and that I would be best served to take a preparation course. I noticed that there were not alot of prep books even on Amazon for this, let alone at a local bookstore.
Do you have any suggestions or advice? Thanks![/quote]
I went to law school with every intention of becoming a patent/IP lawyer but when I started taking classes my second year of law school and started doing patent work as a summer associate I quickly realized I hated all the reading and writing... oh, and the research too. That didn't leave me many options so that's how I ended up practicing corporate law. I'm not passionate about it at all but it pays the bills.
Whoever posted that laywers don't make good money is crazy and you don't have to to to a Top 10 school either - I went to a second tier law school (Top 50) and got a job in NYC at a very prestigious firm. Starting salaries in NYC across the board right now are $145,000 + bonus (generally $30,000 at most places). I did graduate near the top of my class though which is 100% mandatory in order to snag one of those jobs unless you go to a Top 10 law school. The money was the ONLY reason I decided to go though - after college I quickly realized that I was never going to be financially well off unless I changed career paths. If I could do it all over again I don't think I'd become a lawyer - most people I work with are assholes, the work is very dry and not creative at all and the hours completely suck. They chew you up and spit you out. Plus, although I live in a nicer neighborhood and have a little more pocket money, my life isn't that much better financially since I became a lawyer. Most of my friends are pretty much similarly situated and are not lawyers. Maybe there's a giant payoff after I put in 10 years or something but I doubt it. I'm not looking to be a partner at a firm somewhere.
I met a lot of people in law school in your exact position - they found the time to go to school at night and work during the day. Studying for exams would be the toughest part I think. One guy I knew took the patent bar during his second year to become a patent agent and then when he graduated law school he became a patent lawyer. There are very few people who have tecnical degrees and go to law school - if you did go you would NEVER have to worry about having a job because patent lawyers are in such high demand. I think if you want to do it you should or else you would be thinking "what if" for the rest of your life. Just be sure it's what you want. I also know a lot of lawyers who love their jobs but I think they are all nuts. Also, STUDY YOUR ASS OFF - you'd have to basically work and study 24 hours a day for a year to get the dream job (first year grades are all that matter).
That's my $.02.
pittpizza
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I would urge you to go to law school if you are sure its what you want to do. I wish I had a chem or bio background because it would help me get into environmental law, but alas Philosophy and Poli Sci don't help me there.
You should also know that there are all kinds of lawyers. Crimnal or Civil? Transaction work or litigation work? Jav could safely be characterized as more of a transactional type of attorney. I personally would prefer to be in court, arguing motions and trying cases than working at a draconian corporate law firm, hating most of the people I work with and as Jav put it "the work is very dry and not creative at all and the hours completely suck. They chew you up and spit you out."
That having been said though, the jobs are coveted by young attorneys as the pay is great and what he said about needing to be at the top of your class to get those positions is true.
Also ask if you have the time. 3 years full time (means no working outside of lawschool the first year), or 4 years of night classes. I imagine the 4 years of night classes coupled with your 12 hr work day would be impossible.
Patent law has never really interested me but I can tell you that the demand is high, so job prospects would likely be better than in other areas of law.
You should also know that there are all kinds of lawyers. Crimnal or Civil? Transaction work or litigation work? Jav could safely be characterized as more of a transactional type of attorney. I personally would prefer to be in court, arguing motions and trying cases than working at a draconian corporate law firm, hating most of the people I work with and as Jav put it "the work is very dry and not creative at all and the hours completely suck. They chew you up and spit you out."
That having been said though, the jobs are coveted by young attorneys as the pay is great and what he said about needing to be at the top of your class to get those positions is true.
Also ask if you have the time. 3 years full time (means no working outside of lawschool the first year), or 4 years of night classes. I imagine the 4 years of night classes coupled with your 12 hr work day would be impossible.
Patent law has never really interested me but I can tell you that the demand is high, so job prospects would likely be better than in other areas of law.
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