How would you feel if every game was released in store and download off PSN day one?

nystate

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www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-19-used-games-business-is-killing-single-player-experience-says-frontier-developments


I was reading:

(David) Braben says used games has "really killed core games"



"The real problem when you think about it brutally, if you look at just core gamer games, pre-owned has really killed core games," reflected Braben. "In some cases, it's killed them dead. I know publishers who have stopped games in development because most shops won't reorder stock after initial release, because they rely on the churn from the re-sales."

"It's killing single player games in particular, because they will get pre-owned, and it means your day one sales are it, making them super high risk. I mean, the idea of a game selling out used to be a good thing, but nowadays, those people who buy it on day one may well finish it and return it."


"Developers and publishers need that revenue to be able to keep doing high production value games, and so we keep seeing fewer and fewer of them."


Braben, who has worked on titles like Elite and Kinectimals, is currently facing a crisis on his current title, The Outsider. The game is heavily invested in single player story mechanics, but Braben remains somewhat skeptical of the current development landscape.



It made me wonder if people in general would buy more games new if you could just buy them online. And if you guys/gals would buy games from PSN if you could download the day and date it becomes available? How about with a $5-10 dollar discount (or more) for buying download only? It seems to be working for the Vita and XBLA. So I was wondering about retail games.

To keep things fair, PSN games and XBL games could be released, if the developer wanted to, 10-11pm so you could play them with your friends who bought games midnight release.

Doing both would keep Gamestop and buyers of used games happy because you could trade in used games and they would have to price games better because there's no way in heck anybody would buy ME3 for $55.00 used at Gamestop when its $50.00 on PSN. That would make retailers happy because more people could buy new and they could cut out a lot of things like retail space issues, especially around the holidays. Printing discs. Limited copies of lower demand games. JRPGs, for example, generally only being limited to 50,000 copies or so. That would solve the last two because games would only get 'distributed' (for lack of a better word) until it's bought. That would also allow devs come out with more riskier titles. Another good example is Tim Schafer's point-and-click Kickstarter game. He would more likely risk making a PSN port because the risk is lower. He doesn't have to pay retail advertising space no unused games sitting in a bargin bin etc. What do you guy's think?
 
I always wondered why there was so much emphasis but on Day 1/Week 1 sales, I never bothered to think that it had to do with used game sales, but that makes a ton of sense.

This also explains why every game feels like they need to tack on MP.

But people can keep on arguing that the used game market saves the video game industry, even though studios are getting shut down left and right.
 
id only buy them on psn of the price was low. i could do 30 bucks at the most for a dlc version of a new game no more.
 
Retail games are going to disappear and more and more titles are going to appear exclusively on the online stores. It is increasingly a waste of capital and resources to put any game below a certain size on a disc.

Many of the games now sold exclusively through PSN and XBLA would have been on disc a few years ago and considered far too large for a download. Things change. There has been a lot of speculation about the next generation of machines tying discs to the machine they're first used on but that is far more trouble than it is worth. The more of the library you release solely through download the less of an issue used game sales becomes.

Prices will have to come down but much of that can be achieved through the greater efficiencies of online. No sunk costs for media production, royalties only paid on sales made rather media produced, no inventory to maintain, no fulfillment issues as a file on a server never goes out of stock.

The new machines can be expected to be very good at running activity in the background regardless of what else the machine is doing. A pre-order game can be dribbled out to the purchasers and activated within seconds of clock passing midnight of the release date. All it takes is a ping to a server that replies go/no depending on the time at its end.

This is the only way I see as acceptable for ending used game sales. People won't tolerate a physical disc that becomes bound for life to a single machine. A purchase tied to a portable account is another thing entirely.
 
This is all kind of a no brainer... The CoDs and Maddens still sell millions of new copies every year so to say that no one buys new games anymore is a bad argument against used physical media. There are two problems that stand out to me, 1) Market saturation - there used to be fewer AAA games and nowadays there are too many competitors vying for a piece of the pie. Back in the 90s we had Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake... there was one company making "the" FPS game to play and now we have two teams developing the same franchise to put out a yearly edition. B) When this industry was in its toddler phase we had used game sales AND media rental was in its heyday. So not only were people not buying new but they also had more access to 3-7 day rentals which did nothing to perpetual the cycle of trade-ins towards new copies. iii) The consumers are getting smarter and won't buy into a complete shift into digital delivery until the industry acknowledges that there needs to be a discount on downloading to account for the costs of production, logistics and third party markup that are no longer a factor.

It's real simple to me, there was a natural selection that existed in the videogame industry, and I'm not saying it's perfect but the chance of gems like Okami (for example) slipping under the radar are unlikely with the impact that internet has on word of mouth sales for smaller developers. These things will sort themselves out when the balance of creative and business end of producing will fall back into line.
 
I have an extremely hard time putting $60 towards a game. If I had to buy every game new at $60, there would be so many I'd miss out on. I would like the all digital format if systems were shipped with much bigger HDD's at a minimal markup, otherwise you're just spending more on a system because of HDD size. If games were discounted like on Steam where they'd go a weekend at a huge discount, then I'd be for the digital games. Hell you can find games on Steam for a fraction of what they go for on PSN or even on "sale."
I remember recently Deus Ex was on a weekend Steam sale for
 
[quote name='akir']I have an extremely hard time putting $60 towards a game. If I had to buy every game new at $60, there would be so many I'd miss out on. I would like the all digital format if systems were shipped with much bigger HDD's at a minimal markup, otherwise you're just spending more on a system because of HDD size. If games were discounted like on Steam where they'd go a weekend at a huge discount, then I'd be for the digital games. Hell you can find games on Steam for a fraction of what they go for on PSN or even on "sale."
I remember recently Deus Ex was on a weekend Steam sale for
 
For me, games on PSN take much longer to download than on XBL. I've read this complaint from others as well. They need to work on that before they do anything.
 
options and choices are always good. so let the masses 'aka invisible hand' decide.

digital pricing needs to be competitve with retail.

finally, if the game is 7GB; I'll need 7 hrs to download on LIVE and 10-15 hrs to download on PSN. [though fiber optics will eventually solve this in the future.]

actually fiber optics will solve loads of current problems...
 
[quote name='gettinmoney662']But people can keep on arguing that the used game market saves the video game industry, even though studios are getting shut down left and right.[/QUOTE]

yeah it has nothing to do with the vast majority of those studios making terrible games.
 
The reason I buy games so liberally is the fact that I can make money back selling them used. You can't do this with digital content.

There are two things that would convert me towards digital content:

1. storage account (ala steam) in which I know that I can access my purchased content hassle free and be able to play this content on multiple devices.

2. competitive prices. $10-$20 on release competitive

Until this happens physical media will always triumph over digital content.

I think it's common sense that the very high $60 price tag standard takes into account losses from used games sales. If games weren't so expensive more people would buy new over used.
 
Unless the pricing on PSN was significantly lower than B&M stores and physical copies then I'd just wait for the usual sales/clearances before buying games. But even if I chose a downloadable version of a game versus a physical copy, one thing would have to happen before I would make that choice on a regular basis. That being that internet providers stop gouging out the wazoo for access. To me $30 a month for 3mb speed is not cheap enough for my liking. So I'm currently stuck at Verizons' lowest speed available(768kbps) for their lowest available price($20 a month).

As for potentially trying to kill off the used game market by locking new games to the first system/account that uses them, that right there would make me stop buying games altogether. If there's no used game market where I could get much older titles for $10 or under that may not be available new anymore, then I'm done with those companies that have that policy. Period.
 
[quote name='nystate']I agree $60 is a lil pricey and I have a 'good' job. As far as space, Sony allows you to re-download a game/content off of PSN indefinitely as long as it's off of the same PSN ID and PS3. So If you can, just re download it anytime. [/QUOTE]
Sony's TOS says otherwise, your suppose to be responsible for downloading the game onto the hard drive right after you purchase any content off the PS Store. They have the right to remove any content from the PS Store even those you purchased at any time.

It can happen if Sony loses rights to sell a game off the PS Store, like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or security exploits like in the past week with PSP games. http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/27/2907416/sony-ps-vita-security-exploits-psp-title-removal
 
[quote name='htz']Sony's TOS says otherwise, your suppose to be responsible for downloading the game onto the hard drive right after you purchase any content off the PS Store. They have the right to remove any content from the PS Store even those you purchased at any time.

It can happen if Sony loses rights to sell a game off the PS Store, like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or security exploits like in the past week with PSP games. http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/27/2907416/sony-ps-vita-security-exploits-psp-title-removal[/QUOTE]

Did they remove those games from the download list? TMNT might have been removed from the store (I assume you're talking about Re-Shelled), but I can still re-download the game. I don't know about the PSP games though.
 
[quote name='gettinmoney662']Did they remove those games from the download list? TMNT might have been removed from the store (I assume you're talking about Re-Shelled), but I can still re-download the game. I don't know about the PSP games though.[/QUOTE]
Upon SNEI's confirmation of your transaction, you may access the item you ordered through your SEN Account that you used to order the item, until such time as SNEI removes the item. We encourage you to download or access the item immediately after completing your transaction. You bear all risk of loss for accessing the content, including completing the download of any content, ensuring that you have the necessary capabilities to view the content, including content provided at high resolution/definition, and for any loss of content you have downloaded, including any loss due to a file corruption or hard drive crash. You are solely responsible if you do not choose to download or access the content before it is removed and for ongoing storage and safekeeping of the content. SNEI is not obligated to provide you with replacement copies for any reason.
^Sony's TOS reguarding safekeeping of purchased content.
The move by Sony means that people who previously purchased the games are unable to download them again — we bought Motorstorm on the above PSP Go back in 2009, but it's completely disappeared from our download history when viewed on our Vita.
^Based on the article I linked earlier, Sony has removed those games from the download list.
 
Motorstorm and that Tennis game were removed because they were used for a hack. I am sure they will be back once sony can patch them.
 
[quote name='Mospeada_21']options and choices are always good. so let the masses 'aka invisible hand' decide.

digital pricing needs to be competitve with retail.

finally, if the game is 7GB; I'll need 7 hrs to download on LIVE and 10-15 hrs to download on PSN. [though fiber optics will eventually solve this in the future.]

actually fiber optics will solve loads of current problems...[/QUOTE]

This is a structural issue that can be solved today without any dramatic increase in broadband speeds. The heart of the problem is that online sales of games also sold on disc depend on sending a disc image that must be complete before it can be used. (The PSN version eliminate the file duplication used on PS3 discs to improve load times.)

This is not necessary if the game is made modular so that portion a player would need hours of play to see aren't required to be in place locally to play the game. Take a large RPG as an example. The big FMV sequence that doesn't appear until a minimum of eight hours into the game shouldn't prevent those earlier sections from being played while it downloads in the background.

I expect a significant feature of next generation consoles is a stronger ability to maintain downloads while the machine is in use. A processor capable of handling this is a very minor cost these days.
 
[quote name='htz']^Sony's TOS reguarding safekeeping of purchased content.

^Based on the article I linked earlier, Sony has removed those games from the download list.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, that clause is probably in there for situations like those PSP games that allowed the emulator to be hacked. I don't think they're going to just start randomly deleting games so you have to buy them again at a later date. For license issues like the TMNT game, you can still re-download, you just can't purchase it again.

People always like to think that corporations will only act in their best interest but forget to think that keeping the majority of their customers is in their best interest. If they just wiped everyone's purchase history, that would have a ridiculous backlash, and I'm not talkin about bullshit whining on the Internet for two days and then forgetting about it backlash.
 
[quote name='nystate']It made me wonder if people in general would buy more games new if you could just buy them online. And if you guys/gals would buy games from PSN if you could download the day and date it becomes available? How about with a $5-10 dollar discount (or more) for buying download only? It seems to be working for the Vita and XBLA. So I was wondering about retail games.[/quote]
No that's kind of backward. You sort of implying that people WANT to buy games digitally but can't and that's why game sales are lagging? I refused to buy games online unless there's a SIGNIFICANT price difference. You don't have to pay Target, USPS, or your boxing company. Where as I'm getting a copy of a game I can't play unless I'm online. My net connection is spotty. I know many people who don't have consoles online at all.

[quote name='nystate'] To keep things fair, PSN games and XBL games could be released, if the developer wanted to, 10-11pm so you could play them with your friends who bought games midnight release.[/quote] Day and date? so you're saying completely negate the need for a midnight release? Why go to the store on day one hour one when you can just wait at home. It's gonna take you that long to get home anyway. Filed under: Not a benefit

[quote name='nystate'] Doing both would keep Gamestop and buyers of used games happy because you could trade in used games and they would have to price games better because there's no way in heck anybody would buy ME3 for $55.00 used at Gamestop when its $50.00 on PSN.[/quote]Now you're getting close to the mark. First off you mentioned Gamestop. When there was more competition back when EB was a separate store used games weren't a big deal.


[quote name='akir']Hell you can find games on Steam for a fraction of what they go for on PSN or even on "sale."
I remember recently Deus Ex was on a weekend Steam sale for
 
I'd probably more often than not opt for the physical copy of the game. I almost always buy used, and usually never within the first few months of a release. I wait for games to usually hit $25 or less used before buying.

Add to that the fact my PS3 downloads EVERYTHING extremely slowly, heck it took a week+ for me to download DCUO, so even if I bought a $60 game the minute it was released on PSN I wouldn't be able to play it for about a week. To me that's not good use of $60.
 
If games launched around $40-$50 depending on the game I would be happy about it because I never trade in my games. Hard drives are getting cheaper and like you said you could re-download games. Wolfkin is also right though you cant expect people to pay for digital version that you can get for a physical copy for example MGS:pW.
 
I'd buy digital if it was cheaper than the physical disc version. Also, if I had the money to upgrade my stock 160GB hard drive to at least 500GB. Until then, I'm just waiting for disc versions to drop in price or go on sale.
 
[quote name='gettinmoney662']What I'm worried about is Sony doing what Microsoft did and having proprietary hard drives. That would suck.[/QUOTE]
That's one thing I was shocked as hell about with Sony this gen, in that they allow you to upgrade your own HDD and actually encourage it. Of course, they also put out a bunch of different SKU's with varying sized HDD's in them for those who will only ever use the stock HDD and not even mess with one screw on their system.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']That's one thing I was shocked as hell about with Sony this gen, in that they allow you to upgrade your own HDD and actually encourage it. Of course, they also put out a bunch of different SKU's with varying sized HDD's in them for those who will only ever use the stock HDD and not even mess with one screw on their system.[/QUOTE]

Raises Hand...Still using my original 360's 20gb HD, and the stock 80gb drive in my ps3....
 
The price would still be 60 which would be an issue for me, and the biggest issue would be the speed of the downloads. I'm willing to bet that I could go to best buy, come back home, install the game and be playing in the time it'll take to download the full game from psn.
 
[quote name='praxus07']Raises Hand...Still using my original 360's 20gb HD, and the stock 80gb drive in my ps3....[/QUOTE]
Me too. I have never completely filled up a HDD on one of my consoles thus far. I only play maybe 1-2 games at a time but if the install files are small enough I may just leave other titles on there.

But some recent ones require 5 gigs of space just for the install files.:whistle2:#
 
[quote name='Wolfkin']No that's kind of backward. You sort of implying that people WANT to buy games digitally but can't and that's why game sales are lagging? I refused to buy games online unless there's a SIGNIFICANT price difference. You don't have to pay Target, USPS, or your boxing company. Where as I'm getting a copy of a game I can't play unless I'm online. My net connection is spotty. I know many people who don't have consoles online at all.[/QUOTE]
Ok, consider the fact that gas is around $4.00 a gallon. Factor that into the equation. going 15-20 minets to the nearest game store adds up quickly. Also consider that I'm talking about the fact that you, or anyone else, has faster internet, better internet etc. Remember this is just me brainstorming or white boarding ideas for a better solution down the road, even 5 or so years from now.

[quote name='Wolfkin']
Day and date? so you're saying completely negate the need for a midnight release? Why go to the store on day one hour one when you can just wait at home. It's gonna take you that long to get home anyway. Filed under: Not a benefit
[/QUOTE]
Some people are instant gratification people. 'Good Things come To Those Who wait' and so on. A lot of people will still rather go to a store day one to buy a game than download it day one. As I mentioned no Gamestop no midnight releases. Walmart, Best Buy and others have midnight releases because GS does it. Gaming isn't their main source of revenue.
[quote name='Wolfkin']
Now you're getting close to the mark. First off you mentioned Gamestop. When there was more competition back when EB was a separate store used games weren't a big deal.
[/QUOTE]
Exactally. Times have changed in the last 10-15 years. We have newer and better ways to purchase games. GS is becoming huge so we have others, Amazon for example, who are giving as good of a deal or better than GS can.
[quote name='Wolfkin']
A) as much as the PC gamer likes to chime in and say 'Im a gamer too' the PC vs console is apples to oranges and price is one of the reasons why. You probably COULD get Deus Ex (FOR PC) for $10 in a store. PC games are cheaper. it's just the way of the world. The fact that you can get say Uncharted Bundle for $20 and each game is $19.99 on PSN THAT's an example of digital price disparity.[/QUOTE]
That will change because once you go DD, that changes things considerably. Ex: Would you go see Dark Night Rises in the movies if you could pay $15-20 bucks, the price most theaters charge to see a flick if you could see it at home? Maybe? But what about say a movie you just kinda wanna see? Like say Men In Black III? I say no. Eventually there will be a time that all games would be DD only. Price disparity is the result of 'convenience'. Sony believes that it is 'convenient' to just download a game vs buying it in store. I say disagree with them, but with DD and retail Sony would likely see a larger slice of pie from each sale. 1. Because most people would likely just download a game if their internet is fast enough, ant the download is faster and the games are cheaper. 2. I believe more devs would take bigger risks if the distribution method were cheaper (no middle man at all) or Point-Of-Sale method was better. I say point-of-sale because how many times have you bought something if it was 'just there' and cheap? More games especially like the iOS type games or short but good, 'Journey' type of online only games. More online only games available means that less in-store advertising that Sony, Microsoft, EA, Activision, Capcom, Ubisoft etc has to pay out. Less signage. No delivery drivers. No packing. No buying plastic cases.
Just a thought.
 
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