Is playing private servers immoral?

Phelmo

Phelmo

CAGiversary!
(I am talking about MMO's)

So, there are a ton of pay-to-play MMO's out there, and plenty of private servers to match. I would like to get your opinion on whether playing these free private servers is a terrible thing or not? And of course your reasoning behind your opinion.
 
No. The value add of the official servers is the moderation + anti-cheating. If you don't care about those 2 things than playing private servers is fine.
 
That's true, but it's similar to the used games argument. If you play a private server of someone's pay-to-play game, you are cheating the developer.
 
Private servers are awesome because they often provide a different take on any given game. Our clan ran a private server for over a year that turned WoW into UO, complete with dropping your gear in PvP and no factions -- complete FFA PvP. If Blizzard ever opened a commercial server like that, I'd play WoW again in a heartbeat. Our server at it's peak was in the top 50 private servers after just a few weeks and we had tons of hardcore PK guilds making their home there. There were no bullshit arenas or battlegrounds, just pure world PvP and it was sick. Fights would erupt in the streets of Orgrimmar, Dalaran, all over the place. Sadly, we just couldn't keep up with demand of bug fixes and interest waned.

I had more fun with WoW in just one summer than I did in two years of commercial WoW before retiring. Private servers FTW.
 
I think it's OK for games that are no longer online/available.
 
[quote name='hustletron']Immoral is still charging $15 a month after 4 years of loyalty.[/QUOTE]

Loyalty is for family and friends.
 
[quote name='Megazell']I think it's OK for games that are no longer online/available.[/QUOTE]
I agree with that comment. In the case if Tabula Rasa, I would like to see that game still alive. I liked it and thought if they had changed some of the PvP/PVE areas I would have still subbed to it. I would love to see the game in UO settings as stated above.
 
If in the process of getting the game and getting on the server you never give the developers of the game any money what so ever, it's wrong. You're benefiting from their work without giving them any recognition for it.

Similarly, if there's someone that's profiting from the server, it's wrong. If you collect money to maintain the server, then maybe I can understand it. If you collect a small monthly fee and/or sell virtual items, then you're making money off of other's work.

Running a small, non-profitable server for a game you already purchased seems a lot like modding. You're extending the life of the game for you, while also creating a more customized (and theoretically fun) environment.

'Course, in most MMO's TOS, using the software to connect to a server that is running third-party emulation (of the official servers) software is a direct violation. Immorral or not, connecting/running a private server isn't the most legal thing in the world.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']If in the process of getting the game and getting on the server you never give the developers of the game any money what so ever, it's wrong. You're benefiting from their work without giving them any recognition for it.

Similarly, if there's someone that's profiting from the server, it's wrong. If you collect money to maintain the server, then maybe I can understand it. If you collect a small monthly fee and/or sell virtual items, then you're making money off of other's work.

Running a small, non-profitable server for a game you already purchased seems a lot like modding. You're extending the life of the game for you, while also creating a more customized (and theoretically fun) environment.

'Course, in most MMO's TOS, using the software to connect to a server that is running third-party emulation (of the official servers) software is a direct violation. Immorral or not, connecting/running a private server isn't the most legal thing in the world.[/QUOTE]

That is pretty much how I feel. I think that small funservers are ok, but when the host of the server starts turning a profit, I think that's where the line is crossed.

@Lawyers Guns N Money, what if you never played the official server therefore never made any agreement with the games creators?
 
Yes.

You are stealing, plain and simple. If you want to play a game without a monthly fee, don't play MMORPGs that have them, you have plenty of choices if you want a free-to-play MMO. Guild Wars is a good choice, and LOTRO just went free-to-play.

@Phelmo: The mere act of installing a game means you agree to the licensing agreement and TOS. The purchase of the game does not constitute ownership, but a "lease" to play the game the way they outline in the TOS. There is no "I never agreed to anything" argument.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Yes.

You are stealing, plain and simple. If you want to play a game without a monthly fee, don't play MMORPGs that have them, you have plenty of choices if you want a free-to-play MMO. Guild Wars is a good choice, and LOTRO just went free-to-play.

@Phelmo: The mere act of installing a game means you agree to the licensing agreement and TOS. The purchase of the game does not constitute ownership, but a "lease" to play the game the way they outline in the TOS. There is no "I never agreed to anything" argument.[/QUOTE]

Shoot - There are over 15,903,201 'F2P' MMORPGs out there. Some of which have been overviewed in my list of Free And Legal PC Games - Just check the signature for the link or hit the sticky.

If you're breaking a law, I would advise not doing it but if the game is no longer available and the developers no longer exist as a company...I say post it up. For years I had a private MMO server for a MUD that in it's final year went 2D. I even emailed the developers and they said NP so long as I was not charging. Which I never did. It was just for the few ppl I knew that still wanted to play it and the occasional newbie.
 
If your paying someone a fee to play on that private server, I would say that is wrong, as your taking money you should be paying to the developer and paying it to someone else. But if it's free I have no issues with it personally.

I don't feel breaking a games TOS or EULA is 'immoral'. it may be illegal, but lots of things are illegal that my moral compass has no problems with.
 
I'm not concerned with the morals but private servers are illegal right, especially those who ran them using copied/edited source code? and I think this is the same thing as video game emulators.

though not sure about companies that are no longer around (read as old games or poor ones)
 
Times I think it is illegal to use a private server.
-If it is running the same thing the paid servers are running (as of same patch, same content, etc).
-If the owner makes money.

Times when I think it is debatable
-If the server is running something that the hosted paid servers are not running. (For example a World of Warcraft server that only has patch like 1.1 installed so it doesn't use the expansions and only goes upto 60).
 
[quote name='Phelmo']@Lawyers Guns N Money, what if you never played the official server therefore never made any agreement with the games creators?[/QUOTE]
By installing the software on your PC (in most cases) you are agreeing to the terms of the EULA. It doesn't matter if you've connected to the "official" server or not.

Now, if the EULA or TOS doesn't have a clause that prohibits private servers, that's a different story.
 
o, there are a ton of pay-to-play MMO's out there, and plenty of private servers to match. I would like to get your opinion on whether playing these free private servers is a terrible thing or not? And of course your reasoning behind your opinion.
 
Illegal maybe, Immoral no.
If public servers don't give you the experience you want you should not be confined to them.
 
So, it's not immoral to play a game without paying for it? Because that's what you guys are basically saying.

Might as well pirate everything with that attitude.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']So, it's not immoral to play a game without paying for it? Because that's what you guys are basically saying.

Might as well pirate everything with that attitude.[/QUOTE]

I don't pay for games and I play games all the times. Yet I am not a 'pirate'/thief.
 
[quote name='Megazell']I don't pay for games and I play games all the times. Yet I am not a 'pirate'/thief.[/QUOTE]

No, you just download blu-rays to watch :roll:
 
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You spend all that time to respond to me and despite my being on your ignore list you still can't ignore me?

LOL
 
[quote name='Megazell']I don't pay for games and I play games all the times. Yet I am not a 'pirate'/thief.[/QUOTE]

Come on.

Did I really need to add a quantifying statement for games that are under an open source or free license? Really? In the context of this discussion?
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Come on.

Did I really need to add a quantifying statement for games that are under an open source or free license? Really? In the context of this discussion?[/QUOTE]

The OP ask for us to give details. Your post came with a large paintbrush.

I believe that if a game is no longer available putting up a private server for it for FREE is a good thing. You have private servers all over the place for dead games like 'Matrix Online', 'Dungeon Runners'...both games are dead and gone. Some ppl decided to put up private servers to share with friends and allow new comers to experience games they thought were great.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']So, it's not immoral to play a game without paying for it? Because that's what you guys are basically saying.

Might as well pirate everything with that attitude.[/QUOTE]
Um.. you still have to buy the Game and or expansions.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Illegal maybe, Immoral no.
If public servers don't give you the experience you want you should not be confined to them.[/QUOTE]
Basically, you're saying it's ok to violate the EULA or TOS that you agreed to when installing the game (assuming that they have clauses making private servers a violation, of course). Going back on an agreement you made pretty much classifies as immoral in my book.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Um.. you still have to buy the Game and or expansions.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and then proceeding to play them without paying to play, which is exactly what you agree to do when you buy them.

You get 30 days free when you buy the game, if you want more, you gotta pay for it. Just because I buy a 12 pack of Coke from the store, I'm not entitled to free Coke the next time I want it.

I understand if you don't like that you're stealing and you want to justify it to yourself, but don't try to argue in public that you're not stealing because that's just being silly.
 
This thread was made more for the discussion of if it was ok to play the games on private servers, not if it was legal to do so.. Where as a few of you make a good point that it is illegal and that you are violating your agreement with the official game makers, surely it's ok to play the private servers of games that are no longer run by the creators? Wouldn't the creators rather see that their game is still being played even after they have given up than their game disappearing forever?
 
[quote name='Phelmo']This thread was made more for the discussion of if it was ok to play the games on private servers, not if it was legal to do so.. Where as a few of you make a good point that it is illegal and that you are violating your agreement with the official game makers, surely it's ok to play the private servers of games that are no longer run by the creators? Wouldn't the creators rather see that their game is still being played even after they have given up than their game disappearing forever?[/QUOTE]

It's in a legally grey area to do so, but morally I don't have any problems with this as the game makers no longer offer a proper alternative.

And stealing is immoral, and morality is the point raised in this thread. I don't see how that discussion is off-topic.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']You get 30 days free when you buy the game, if you want more, you gotta pay for it. Just because I buy a 12 pack of Coke from the store, I'm not entitled to free Coke the next time I want it.[/QUOTE]

I think a better analogy would be bottled water.

If I buy a bottle of water, I can drink the contents. When the bottle is empty, I could buy another bottle full of water...or I could refill the bottle with my own water. Imagine if the bottled water companies said "No, you can't use the bottle that way. By purchasing and opening our bottled water, you agreed to a one-time use agreement. If you want to drink more than the alloted 20oz of water from our bottle, you'll have to buy more from us".

Everybody would (rightfully) tell them to shove it. I bought the bottle, I can do whatever you want with it. Throw it away, fill it up with more water, shoot bottle rockets out of it. The choice is up to me, not the company who sold me the bottle of water.

If I pay $50 for World Of Warcraft, why shouldn't I be allowed to play on private servers if I want to? As long as the private servers aren't some how stealing resources from Blizzard or making a profit, how is that wrong? I bought a game and now I'm playing it. The monthly fee is for the right to play on their servers and use their resources, not for access to the game (that's what the original $50 I spent is for)
 
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[quote name='JasonTerminator']It's in a legally grey area to do so, but morally I don't have any problems with this as the game makers no longer offer a proper alternative.

And stealing is immoral, and morality is the point raised in this thread. I don't see how that discussion is off-topic.[/QUOTE]

Your'e right. I just don't want this thread to be full of flames for the people that think it's ok to play the p.servers and the ones that are flat out against it.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I think a better analogy would be bottled water.

If I buy a bottle of water, I can drink the contents. When it's gone, I could buy more...or I could refill the bottle with my own water. Imagine if the bottled water companies said "No, you can't use the bottle that way. By purchasing and opening our bottled water, you agreed to a one-time use agreement. If you want to drink more than the alloted 20oz of water from our bottle, you'll have to buy more from us".

Everybody would (rightfully) tell them to shove it. You bought the bottle, you can do whatever you want with it. Throw it away, fill it up with more water, shoot bottle rockets out of it. The choice is up to you.

If I pay $50 for World Of Warcraft, why shouldn't I be allowed to play on private servers if I want? As long as they aren't some how stealing resources from Blizzard or making a profit, how is that wrong? I bought a game and now I'm playing it. Why should I give two shits about Blizzard or breaking a stupid EULA?[/QUOTE]

Except the water companies don't make the water. You can get water elsewhere because it's all over the damn place and free. Coke is the only company that makes Coke. If you want Coke, you have to pay for Coke. When you run out of Coke, you buy more. It's not in the lake outside, or in your faucet or wherever else. If you create your own Coke, you're infringing on Coke's right to be the only people that make Coke. You can make your own Cola beverage, but it's not Coke, can't be called Coke. It's shit you make in your bathtub.

If you want to play WoW, then play WoW. The right way. If you don't like it, make your own damn MMORPG. Or play a different one since, like the water company, it's not the only game in town. If you don't like how Blizzard runs things on WoW, play EVE or FFXIV or LOTRO or something that appeals to your sensibilities. They made their product, you don't own any right to use it any way other than how they say, as you don't own anything at all except a license to use the product in the way they specify. The bottles are not under a licensing agreement, as you said, but if somebody for some retarded reason decided to lease a bottle to you, you don't own the bottle, no more than you own a car you lease or a rental from Blockbuster. It's not yours, you have agreed to use it in a manner that they specify. If you want a bottle that doesn't have a licensing agreement, then buy a different bottle.

So to re-iterate, when you "buy WoW", you aren't actually buying the game World of Warcraft. You are purchasing a license to play the game, owned by Blizzard. You have no right to use the game in any way they don't allow you to. Period.

@Phelmo - The majority of this discussion has been remarkably civil. And if you think calling people that steal thieves is an insult, I'm not even sure how to respond.
 
Kilm's post was hostile towards Megazell, and the way you worded your replies hasn't exactly been warm..

Sporadic could argue that if you want 'bottled water' then you have to buy the bottled water just as you have to buy the Coke (water from a tap is not the same as the bottled water). It's essentially the same thing. Think of it this way, you buy a bottle of Coke or water, the bottle would be the game client, the Coke or water inside would be the server. Once the Coke or water has gone dry, you can fill it with whatever you want. Meaning that you can use it for a different server.

But w/e, I don't want this thread to be for flaming so if you have made your point, there is no reason to continue arguing.
 
I think the real aspect of morality should look at the person running the server.

To use the Soda analogy, if they stole Coke's formula and ran an operation selling a product that looks like Coke, tastes like Coke, and they called it coke, it'd be damn wrong.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']If I pay $50 for World Of Warcraft, why shouldn't I be allowed to play on private servers if I want to? As long as the private servers aren't some how stealing resources from Blizzard or making a profit, how is that wrong? I bought a game and now I'm playing it. The monthly fee is for the right to play on their servers and use their resources, not for access to the game (that's what the original $50 I spent is for)[/QUOTE]
You don't pay $50 for World of Warcraft program. You pay $50 for the right to play World of Warcraft the way it was intended to be played, per the terms of the EULA and TOS that you agreed to when installing the game.

Hell, you can download the entire World of Warcraft game without paying a single penny directly from Blizzard. That doesn't make it free for you to use how you please.
 
[quote name='Phelmo']Kilm's post was hostile towards Megazell, and the way you worded your replies hasn't exactly been warm..

Sporadic could argue that if you want 'bottled water' then you have to buy the bottled water just as you have to buy the Coke (water from a tap is not the same as the bottled water). It's essentially the same thing. Think of it this way, you buy a bottle of Coke or water, the bottle would be the game client, the Coke or water inside would be the server. Once the Coke or water has gone dry, you can fill it with whatever you want. Meaning that you can use it for a different server.

But w/e, I don't want this thread to be for flaming so if you have made your point, there is no reason to continue arguing.[/QUOTE]
The bottle argument doesn't hold water (pun!) since it's a physical product. When you buy computer software, you don't get a physical product, you buy a license to use it according to the terms.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']....[/QUOTE]

Re-read my post. You caught me in the middle of editing it.

[quote name='Phelmo']Sporadic could argue that if you want 'bottled water' then you have to buy the bottled water just as you have to buy the Coke (water from a tap is not the same as the bottled water). It's essentially the same thing. Think of it this way, you buy a bottle of Coke or water, the bottle would be the game client, the Coke or water inside would be the server. Once the Coke or water has gone dry, you can fill it with whatever you want. Meaning that you can use it for a different server.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

If WoW was given away for free and relied on ads/microtransactions to stay afloat, then they might have a point with the "it is immoral to use it in a different fashion Blizzard designed" argument but as is, you are paying $50 for it and I don't think Blizzard has any right to say "if you don't pay $10 a month, you don't get to play it anymore". The $10 a month is a fee for using their servers and resources. If I play without using their servers or resources, what's the problem?

-edit And in case you haven't figured it out yet, I believe that EULAs are complete bullshit. They wouldn't hold up if applied to any other product, so why are they ok/accepted for digital products? If I buy books from the Amazon store for my Kindle but sell it later for a Nook, why shouldn't I be allowed to break the DRM on the books I purchased and so I can continue to access it? I paid for it, fuck off.
 
[quote name='Lawyers Guns N Money']You don't pay $50 for World of Warcraft program. You pay $50 for the right to play World of Warcraft the way it was intended to be played, per the terms of the EULA and TOS that you agreed to when installing the game.

Hell, you can download the entire World of Warcraft game without paying a single penny directly from Blizzard. That doesn't make it free for you to use how you please.[/QUOTE]

The fact that you can download WoW for free from the people that actually created the game, and that you have to pay for the disk would suggest that you are paying for the disk and what's on the disk which is the program itself (not saying that makes it ok to play a p.server using the client that's on a disk..).

It all comes down to whether you think that taking what like.. $9 a month from Blizzard which has hundreds of thousands of people paying that fee is such a bad thing.. Personally I like to stick to the free to play MMO's if I am going to play one at all.

If the MMO has gone down and is no longer being hosted by the creators, then I think it is ok to play a p.server of that game.

Also, I think that playing a p.server of a free-to-play MMO is ok seeing as the creators of the MMO are not going to lose out. (Especially if you are like me and never buy anything from the cash-shops of these games.)

I think that playing a private server of a pay-to-play game is wrong, but I wouldn't flame anybody for playing one. Especially if the official server has thousands of people that pay the fee already.

Just a note: I have never played a pay to play game in either official or private server form.

Here is something else to think about: If the MMO has a fee to buy the base game, but no fee to pay after that.. is that wrong? Something to keep in mind whilst thinking about that is the whole COD dedi server debate.

Also Consider: Some games on the Xbox/PS3 are talking about making it so that you have to pay an extra fee to play online, console gamers are not happy about this seeing as they feel that what they paid for the game in the first place should be enough and online play should be included. Should we take the fact that we are expected to pay a monthly fee so lightly? Or should the console gamers lighten up?
 
[quote name='Phelmo']If the MMO has gone down and is no longer being hosted by the creators, then I think it is ok to play a p.server of that game.

Also Consider: Some games on the Xbox/PS3 are talking about making it so that you have to pay an extra fee to play online, console gamers are not happy about this seeing as they feel that what they paid for the game in the first place should be enough and online play should be included. Should we take the fact that we are expected to pay a monthly fee so lightly? Or should the console gamers lighten up?[/QUOTE]

Then we are in agreement. Yay.

As for the flaming of a thread...that cat will always follow me in this forum and others...once he went emotional he pretty much lost it and feels he has to follow me in this forum and in others. Sad actually but I'm not the first person he has done this too on CAG. You can ignore him and let him wallow and still make your point here with no problem. (Which with this post is what you did making your position a little more clear.)

As for consoles...leave that in the console section. They have been getting raped for years and more rape is coming for them. In the end they have the same choices that PC gamers do...Buy or don't buy.
 
[quote name='Megazell']Then we are in agreement. Yay.

As for the flaming of a thread...that cat will always follow me in this forum and others...once he went emotional he pretty much lost it and feels he has to follow me in this forum and in others. Sad actually but I'm not the first person he has done this too on CAG. You can ignore him and let him wallow and still make your point here with no problem. (Which with this post is what you did making your position a little more clear.)[/QUOTE]

This is pathetic. I'm on your ignore list, you still can't ignore me, and you still talk about me? What a moron.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']If WoW was given away for free and relied on ads/microtransactions to stay afloat, then they might have a point with the "it is immoral to use it in a different fashion Blizzard designed" argument but as is, you are paying $50 for it and I don't think Blizzard has any right to say "if you don't pay $10 a month, you don't get to play it anymore". The $10 a month is a fee for using their servers and resources. If I play without using their servers or resources, what's the problem?

-edit And in case you haven't figured it out yet, I believe that EULAs are complete bullshit. They wouldn't hold up if applied to any other product, so why are they ok/accepted for digital products? If I buy books from the Amazon store for my Kindle but sell it later for a Nook, why shouldn't I be allowed to break the DRM on the books I purchased and so I can continue to access it? I paid for it, fuck off.[/QUOTE]

You don't think Blizzard has any right to say what people can do with the game that they(Blizzard) own?

You don't really "get" intellectual property, do you?

[quote name='Phelmo']The fact that you can download WoW for free from the people that actually created the game, and that you have to pay for the disk would suggest that you are paying for the disk and what's on the disk which is the program itself (not saying that makes it ok to play a p.server using the client that's on a disk..).[/QUOTE]

You can download the client for free, but in order to play WoW after a trial account expires you have to buy a license key. Disc or no disc, you purchase the license, not the program.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']You don't think Blizzard has any right to say what people can do with the game that they(Blizzard) own?[/QUOTE]

Yes because

[quote name='JasonTerminator']You don't really "get" intellectual property, do you?[/QUOTE]

I get intellectual property. If somebody takes art/music/code that Blizzard created out of World Of Warcraft and put it into their work without permission, that's wrong. If somebody makes copies of the World Of Warcraft DVD they bought and sells them, that's wrong. But it's not wrong to use a product you paid for in a manner of your choosing. If I pay $50 for World Of Warcraft, I have the right to use it anyway I like including playing on private servers if I choose. They received compensation from me. They aren't entitled to $10 a month if I'm not using their servers to play the game I bought.

[And I'll admit, I didn't know that you could download it for free from their site. The people who do that and use private servers don't have a leg to stand on.]

Could you imagine any other company that isn't dealing with digital items trying to put those types of limitations on the products you buy from them? You buy a Samsung TV but there was an agreement when you opened the box that you wouldn't install it in your car. What? Why would they have any say in what you do with the TV after you purchased it? Just because they created it?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Could you imagine any other company that isn't dealing with digital items trying to put those types of limitations on the products you buy from them? You buy a Samsung TV but there was an agreement when you opened the box that you wouldn't install it in your car. What? Why would they have any say in what you do with the TV after you purchased it? Just because they created it?[/QUOTE]

You do know that software patents and intellectual properties as it stands now is like you are RENTING said software...and you are renting/purchasing it on their terms not yours.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I get intellectual property. If somebody takes art/music/code that Blizzard created out of World Of Warcraft and put it into their work without permission, that's wrong. If somebody makes copies of the World Of Warcraft DVD they bought and sells them, that's wrong. But it's not wrong to use a product you paid for in a manner of your choosing. If I pay $50 for World Of Warcraft, I have the right to use it anyway I like including playing on private servers if I choose. They received compensation from me. They aren't entitled to $10 a month if I'm not using their servers to play the game I bought.

Could you imagine any other company that isn't dealing with digital items trying to put those types of limitations on the products you buy from them? You buy a Samsung TV but there was an agreement when you opened the box that you wouldn't install it in your car. What? Why would they have any say in what you do with the TV after you purchased it? Just because they created it? [/QUOTE]

The only product you paid for is a license to play WoW on official servers. The only right you have is to play WoW on official servers. Any other "rights" that you purport to have are fabricated on your part to justify your stealing.

Purchasing a TV means you own it. You own the TV and as such can use it as you please. You don't own WoW, therefore you cannot do with it as you please.
 
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