Is the Vatican a Sovereign State?

rabbitt

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Is the Vatican a Sovereign State?
By Christopher Hitchens

[quote name='slate.com']Elena Kagan and her colleagues in the solicitor general's office say it is. They should be ashamed.

Those scrutinizing the nomination of Elena Kagan to the Supreme Court might want to pay some attention to the recent decision of her office—the office of the solicitor general of the United States—to take the side of the Vatican in the continuing scandal of child rape and the associated scandal of a coordinated obstruction of justice. Faced with a number of court cases in the United States that have named the pope himself as a defendant in the enabling and covering up of many rapes, the Vatican has evolved the strategy of claiming that the Holy See is in effect a sovereign state and thus possessed of immunity from prosecution. It has now been announced that the Obama administration will be advising the Supreme Court to adopt this view of the matter.

There are a number of fascinating ramifications of this opinion. It is not usually considered polite to mention that the majority of Supreme Court justices are practicing Roman Catholics. (Writing about this delicate matter during the argument over the nomination of John Roberts, I did warn that there might come a day when it could pose a double conflict of interest, both in respect of church teachings and in respect of the Vatican's decision to shelter Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston after he skipped town to avoid a subpoena. This was before it came to light that the current pope had been so deeply and personally involved in the church's strategy of delay and obfuscation.) We will soon have a Supreme Court that contains no Protestants and no secularists and which is being asked to rule on a matter central to the religious beliefs of a majority of its members, who are bound to regard the man formerly known as Joseph Ratzinger as the vicar of Christ on earth. If they now take refuge in the lesser claim that he is the bureaucratic head of a foreign government, will that serve to assuage their consciences?

Even if they do decide the matter in this way, they will not succeed in banishing the terrible question of Vatican responsibility for the destruction of so many childhoods and the protection of so many hardened criminals. To give just one example that has not so far had the attention it deserves, the State Department is required by Congress to make an annual report on the human rights record of every government with which we have relations. Yet there is no annual human rights report on the Vatican—or Vatican City or the Holy See, if you prefer. When questioned on this rather glaring lacuna, officials at Foggy Bottom say that for human rights purposes, the Vatican is not a state. It enjoys, for example, only the status of an observer at the United Nations. Very well then, if the Supreme Court rules that it is a sovereign government, then it necessarily follows that it must be subjected to official scrutiny on its rights practices, which in international law include the treatment of children. It will be interesting to see how the Obama administration gets itself off the horns of that dilemma. (It is also perhaps a pity that this question was not resolved earlier, so that we could have had an official U.S. government report on, say, the open complicity of the Catholic Church and the papacy in sheltering the men who organized the genocide in Rwanda.)

This all arises because the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals made a ruling that effectively lifted the Vatican's immunity under a 1976 law (the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which governs the extent to which foreign entities can be pursued on American soil). The case involves an Oregon victim who was molested by a priest who had been moved, after previous offenses, from parishes in Ireland and Chicago. Other plaintiffs in other states such as Kentucky and Wisconsin have asked the courts to view offending priests and complicit bishops as employees of the Vatican, thereby illustrating the general responsibility of the papacy. The church's response to this has been especially absurd, claiming that the pope exercises only spiritual authority and not managerial control. The first thing to say about this is notice how it abolishes the church's other claim to be a political and accountable state! Then ask yourself what would happen to a priest or bishop who expressed doubts about the Vatican's teaching on abortion or divorce. He would soon find that Rome was very interested in disciplining him. It was Joseph Ratzinger himself who invited Holocaust-denying Bishop Richard Williamson all the way from Argentina and back into the fold in an attempt to conciliate Catholicism's more reactionary wing. It was Rome that gave shelter and succor to Cardinal Law after the long disgrace of his tenure in Boston. Suddenly we are asked to believe that the church is not really responsible for the actions of those who have a sworn duty of obedience to its headquarters? This will not wash. State or no state, the church is a highly disciplined multinational corporation that allows little or no autonomy to its branches and can no more be the judge in its own cause than British Petroleum.

It will be a disgrace if the Supreme Court overrules the sane and legal finding of the 9th Circuit. It is already a disgrace that so many innocent victims and their families have had to seek redress on their own and fight for decades against a ruthless and cynical clerical hierarchy that on its own admission was more concerned to protect the predators than to do justice. Where were the nation's law officers and policemen while all this was going on? Did they not feel it their bounden duty to represent the interests of the most vulnerable? Now at last the majesty of American law is being deployed in this matter—but on the side of an institution that has irreparably stained itself with crime. Kagan and her colleagues should be made to feel the shame of this, as should the president, who talks so glibly about human rights and equality before the law.
[/quote]

http://www.slate.com/id/2255270/

What are your thoughts on this?

This story crept under the radar for me, but seems to be one of the most important to emerge in the ongoing scandal.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']Then you support an assessment of their human rights by the State Department?[/QUOTE]

I don't see a problem with an assessment.

Hopefully, Catholics won't see a problem with a prosecution.
 
Um..

Vatican City = Sovereign State

Holy Father = Diplomatic Immunity

Pedophile Priest who resides in Oregon = prosecutable to the fullest extent of Oregon law

9th circuit coa = hears voices and sees dead people
 
[quote name='rabbitt']You made clear last time that you didn't see controversy in molesting children.[/QUOTE]

where is the controversy? its illegal, people who do it are criminals, blah blah blah.
 
Vatican City wasn't officially considered a independent state until Mussolini made it so.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']where is the controversy? its illegal, people who do it are criminals, blah blah blah.[/QUOTE]

The controversy lies in the current set up, which would prevent the Pope from being prosecuted.
 
[quote name='Clak']Vatican City wasn't officially considered a independent state until Mussolini made it so.[/QUOTE]
Their territory used to be much larger, they ruled a swath of Italy for a thousand years. They were invaded and annexed briefly by France, later they were invaded by the Italians who took all of their territory except for a few buildings that the church still claimed sovereignty over. 5 Popes over the 59 years rejected Italy's authority over them to such a degree that they refused to leave that small area.

They got the rest of the 110 acres they have now from Mussolini in exchange for renouncing their claims over the former Papal States and the rest of Rome. To them, they never lost sovereignty though their territory was comically small even compared to what they have today.

That they are not a full member of the UN is meaningless. They have permanent observer status because they have chosen not to participate.
 
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So are you agreeing with me, refuting me, or just adding additional information? Because I really don't care that generations of Roman Catholics felt it was sovereign.
 
I'm refuting you. Mussolini did not create the Vatican as a sovereign state, they have existed as one continuously. Mussolini simply clarified their relationship with Italy and granted them additional land.

The official position of the United States is that they have been a sovereign entity since medieval times.
 
The Italian government did not recognize it as independent. Not until after the lateran treaty did the Italian government recognize vatican city as being sovereign. Hell, the treaty created vatican city.You can talk all day about how the pope or other catholics felt it was, but the fact remains that it was not.
 
[quote name='Clak']The Italian government did not recognize it as independent. Not until after the lateran treaty did the Italian government recognize vatican city as being sovereign. Hell, the treaty created vatican city.You can talk all day about how the pope or other catholics felt it was, but the fact remains that it was not.[/QUOTE]

It is a sovereign state today. Next argument please.
 
They should arrest all the pedos and the pope for obstruction of justice and some other conspiracy and accessory to molestation charges.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Is the Italian government the sole authority on what is and what is not a sovereign entity?[/QUOTE]
"Roman Catholic", do you not see the problem there? Without the Italian government signing the lateran treaty, Catholic HQ would be in Italian territory. Hell many people still refer to "the Pope in Rome" even today. Considering the close relationship between the church and Italian government I guess it's no surprise that most people see no distinction.
 
The only reason they are recognized as one is because they know how to manipulate and control the weak minded. The church appointed themselves, no one else appointed them anything.

For a long time now they have been herding in the weak minded who cant think for themselves, they foster idiots with promises and hopes of things that arent real, they take the guilty minded and say that if you do what we say whatever you feel guilty about is absolved and you have done no wrongs, and all these other morons they coddle and hold so those people become easy to control. Those people make up the majority of the planet so its no wonder they gained so much control. Governments dont want to stop them because they help keep control over people, thats why they make them soverign states, and give them tax breaks and so on because they help keep the cows in line. Yeah you take a thousand people who go to church and try to be good people and dont do anything wrong ever and so on, but if you take religion out of the equation sure alot of them may still be good but a good portion would do alot of bad things because they have no invisible man to fear.

Church is control, plain and simple. It was a way to control superstious idiots a thousand years ago and its the same today. No government will give up a chance to keep its people under control.
 
bread's done
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