Japanese Gamers are mad at IGN's article!

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http://www.qj.net/qjnet/news/japanese-gamers-fire-back-at-igns-jrpg-article.html

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The article doesn't seem like it's slamming JRPGs, just making suggestions on improvements. Honestly, I've heard a lot of gamers complain about most of the points mentioned, and I gave up on JRPGs not long after high school. Sounds like a bunch of fanboys to me.
 
But don't JRPG's do really well in Japan, while WRPG's don't? I don't see the problem with developer's in each market making games that sell well in their respective markets. I could imagine a Japanese blogger looking at WRPG's and making comments about how WRPG's could be brought up to the standards of JRPG's. It's all a matter of perspective.
 
Of course, the real kicker is that people in the U.S. are just as much fanboys as the comments posted by Japanese gamers in the link (see comments from above link).

There's no such thing as a perfect game. All games have their good points and their bad points. As someone already said, it's a matter of perspective.
 
im an us gamer and i'd love to play some rpgs that are like ff7(mean that and zelda are some of the games i grew up on). when i get an rpg actually thats what i sort of expect.
however as of late everything is open world crap like with fallout or oblivion
and i cant find a ff7 clone in site. just boring crap-no story, some crappy fps game(which i wouldnt mind if it were like golden eye) which is why im now i'm not a big rpg fan anymore although id love to play really good RPGS again :)
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']"Oblivion and Fallout fanatics are exponentially more annoying than any Final Fantasy fanatic."

No. God no![/QUOTE]

I read the same thing and stopped right there. I've never heard someone defend Oblivion or Fallout a tenth as much as FFVII. Even American gamers think that it's the Messiah of gaming.

EDIT -- Read the post above mine.....
 
I've seen plenty of Sephiroth fangirls and fanboys attack people who dare question the greatness of Final Fantasy. I doubt Mad Dog is getting that kind of devotion.

Sorry Japan, I have to agree with IGN on this one. Your RPGs suck now.
 
I agree with a couple of suggestions the article makes, but with a lot of others it come down to genre conventions and/or personal preference.

On a semi-related note: this gen the press seems to heavily favor WRPGs over the ones that have traditionally been on consoles to this point. I'm wondering where all these guys were when WRPGs were mainly on PC? It's like what happened to the FPS genre back when Halo came out, but that's a rant for another time :p
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']"Oblivion and Fallout fanatics are exponentially more annoying than any Final Fantasy fanatic."

No. God no![/QUOTE]
Keep in mind that the person who said this was a Japanese gamer in Japan, where Western games are niche to begin with. It could very well be the case that Oblivion and Fallout fans in Japan are more annoying there, where Final Fantasy is more mainstream (and therefore, less to get fanatical/overly defensive about?), than here.
 
I never really liked Final Fantasy, and I don't like turn-based RPGs in general (especially if it's turn-based, but you have limited time and can lose your turn). I like leveling and gaining power, etc. (as long as it's not grinding), but there's nothing all that fun to me in scrolling through various menus.

So I definitely like RPGs where you're doing something and prefer RPGs like Fallout. I think Mario and Luigi/Paper Mario is a good blend of the two though - you have the turn-based and menu-based attacks, but you actually have to do shit that affects those attacks so there's more of a feeling of control rather than "choose an attack, watch a movie".
 
Its funny that Japanese gamers think their RPGs are better than Western RPGs when really D&D (a western made game) is the foundation for all modern RPGs today.
 
[quote name='ananag112']Its funny that Japanese gamers think their RPGs are better than Western RPGs when really D&D (a western made game) is the foundation for all modern RPGs today.[/QUOTE]
Wizardry and D&D, I believe, were the inspiration for Dragon Quest. =)

I don't think JRPGs are terrible, just that nowadays we see more than just A-list titles. ToV, so far, is this generation's defining JRPG and it's damn good.

Plus the original article just seems to compare everything to Fallout and Oblivion. And frankly, I think Oblivion's "They level up with you"-mechanic is horrible. I haven't touched Fallout and don't plan to.
 
Eh. Some of the suggestions seem worthwhile and some of them are the same old "JRPGs should change until they are just like Oblivion/Fallout" stuff that gets said all the damn time. Maybe people who prefer WRPGs should just, you know, play the games that they like, and stop harping on the perceived inferiority of other genres.
 
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Do they even need to change all that much? I know I'd be happy with an updated (PS3/360) version of a Lunar-ish style JRPG. Even though I know asking for a simple coherent story is too much nowadays.

WRPGs are "role-playing" games in the truest sense. I'm not a big fan of the genre, having Mass Effect the only one I got into, but there's no denying the fact that in recent years WRPGs have the better games.

And don't get me started on the RPG handheld market. It's way to saturated to make any sense of it.
 
[quote name='blueshinra']Keep in mind that the person who said this was a Japanese gamer in Japan, where Western games are niche to begin with. It could very well be the case that Oblivion and Fallout fans in Japan are more annoying there, where Final Fantasy is more mainstream (and therefore, less to get fanatical/overly defensive about?), than here.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if I buy that either. I've met a few ridiculous FF fans from Japan as well. I've never met a ridiculous Oblivion fan from anywhere.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']"Oblivion and Fallout fanatics are exponentially more annoying than any Final Fantasy fanatic."

No. God no![/QUOTE]

Fallout fanboys are more destructive in the sense that they complain and complain, forcing changes in Fallout 3 for the worst.

And then they still decry that game as a travesty.


So yeah, Fallout fanboys are actually more harmful.
 
Well that depends on what you see as more destructive. I see fans keeping a series from change, and leaving it to stagnate into oblivion more destructive.
 
Article was fine, good read, there some good point but they have bad examples. They did not say JRPG suck, they just want to see it improve.
I love JRPG, but I agree there is a lot of improvement that can be done.

Oh and IGN recent culprit thing is completly bullshit. Not really recent and they are just switching from game to game so they don't accuse too much on the same game.

And Tales of Vesperia don't need any online element.
 
[quote name='B:L']Fallout fanboys are more destructive in the sense that they complain and complain, forcing changes in Fallout 3 for the worst.

And then they still decry that game as a travesty.


So yeah, Fallout fanboys are actually more harmful.[/QUOTE]
I think the Diablo fanboys are worse, but believe Blizzard will still turn out a great game in Diablo III (since they know better than to listen to rabid fans about silly shit). Besides, the naysayers will still buy the game... how else will they find new stuff to complain about? ;)
 
It's just to be expected. I agree with pretty much all those complaints, as they're why I've not played a JRPG since FFX and will never play another one most likely. I just don't dig the setting, stories, characters and turn based combat etc.

But at the same time, I don't go around bashing them, as I know people still dig the genre. And there's no shortage of WRPGs for me to play.

Different strokes for different folks, if a genre is not for you, don't play it and let other's enjoy it, and spend your time playing and discussing genres you like.
 
The Japanese don't like change in their vidyagames.

They release dozens of Dynasty Warriros, Armored Core, and 'Tales' games and they all seem to be the same, year after year, maybe better graphics. And they seem to sell well enough.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I don't know if I buy that either. I've met a few ridiculous FF fans from Japan as well. I've never met a ridiculous Oblivion fan from anywhere.[/QUOTE]


ZOMG OBLIVION RULEZ11!!!!111 FINALFANTASY DROOLZ!!111!!!!

You can keep your spikey haired, pantaloon wearing, amensia suffering, 16 year old lady boyz. Give me a REAL WESTERN RPG any day of the week. Where men are MEN and not sissy mary emo toolbags. Just because the story is linear, do they have to use the SAME STORY EVERY TIMEZ!!??!!!

Save the world, discover your past, bla bla bla.... its ALL THE SAMEZ!!!

You could never even lift up a sword that big anyway, soo lame.

Final Fantasy is FAIL/10!!!111!!!
 
[quote name='Puffa469']The Japanese don't like change in their vidyagames.

They release dozens of Dynasty Warriros, Armored Core, and 'Tales' games and they all seem to be the same, year after year, maybe better graphics. And they seem to sell well enough.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, are western games really that different? With annual updates to series like Call of Duty, Guitar Hero etc.? How different is Halo 3 from Halo 1 really?

There's plenty of stagnation in gaming everywhere. It's just that it doesn't much matter if you're a fan of a genre. I love FPS and WRPG and don't care that there's not that much difference from one game to the next. Just new setting, characters, weapons, story etc.
 
I posted a thread on the 100 best selling games in Japan for 2009. Only one western game made the list: Modern Warfare 2.

[quote name='dmaul1114']To be fair, are western games really that different? [/QUOTE]

It's not just a matter of the games but also the consumer. The main difference is we don't limit ourselves to just western games. If a great Japanese game comes out we play that too.
 
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I hated that article by IGN. I still enjoy JRPGs (only thing I dislike is too much level grinding in some). I personally feel western RPGs are garbage, stale, generic, etc. I actually agree with much of what the Japanese gamers said.
 
[quote name='Rodimus']I posted a thread on the 100 best selling games in Japan for 2009. Only one western game made the list: Modern Warfare 2.



It's not just a matter of the games but also the consumer. The main difference is we don't limit ourselves to just western games. If a great Japanese game comes out we play that too.[/QUOTE]

A lot of Western games dont even reach Japan. When they do get it is it often months later. Games like Borderland, Dragon Age, and Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 aren't out yet
 
[quote name='62t']A lot of Western games dont even reach Japan. When they do get it is it often months later. Games like Borderland, Dragon Age, and Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 aren't out yet[/QUOTE]

I know it's better now but this situation wasn't so diffrent for us with Japanese games.
 
[quote name='The Mana Knight']I hated that article by IGN. I still enjoy JRPGs (only thing I dislike is too much level grinding in some). I personally feel western RPGs are garbage, stale, generic, etc. I actually agree with much of what the Japanese gamers said.[/QUOTE]

No reason to hate the article, as you pretty much say the same thing about Western RPGs.

Like I said above, it's just a different strokes for different folks type of thing.

We wouldn't get these stupid arguments all the time if people would just shut the fuck up about games/genre's they don't like and focus on playing and discussing games/genres they do like.

JRPGs aren't going to change drastically. You either like the basics of the genre or you don't. Same with WRPGs. Same with every other genre. It's either for you or not.

So I do agree the article is silly, as it's clearly not written by a JRPG fan who just wants to see some minor changes. But more by someone who basically wants to turn JRPGs into WRPGs.

Just silly IMO. Again, people should just play and discuss what they like, and not waste time bashing genre's they dislike.

I mainly play FPS and WRPGs, and those are the games I spend time discussing online, along with the occasional game from another genre that I'm playing. I see no point spending time railing about why I don't like JRPGs, or RTS games or Sports games etc. But some people just like to bitch, troll and create controversy online, so forums are always sucked down by such debates--furthered by people writing articles to spark such debates to bring attention to their websites and blogs.
 
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[quote name='Nathan_Sama']Fallout 3 > Final Fantasy 12

Nuff said.[/QUOTE]As big of a FF/JRPG fan I am, even I could possibly say that because I hated FFXII so much (big letdown, I even liked many lesser JRPGs that year way more). However, I'd say FFX >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fallout 3 (that's my opinion of course). ;)
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']No reason to hate the article, as you pretty much say the same thing about Western RPGs.

Like I said above, it's just a different strokes for different folks type of thing.

We wouldn't get these stupid arguments all the time if people would just shut the fuck up about games/genre's they don't like and focus on playing and discussing games/genres they do like.

JRPGs aren't going to change drastically. You either like the basics of the genre or you don't. Same with WRPGs. Same with every other genre. It's either for you or not.

So I do agree the article is silly, as it's clearly not written by a JRPG fan who just wants to see some minor changes. But more by someone who basically wants to turn JRPGs into WRPGs.

Just silly IMO. Again, people should just play and discuss what they like, and not waste time bashing genre's they dislike.

I mainly play FPS and WRPGs, and those are the games I spend time discussing online, along with the occasional game from another genre that I'm playing. I see no point spending time railing about why I don't like JRPGs, or RTS games or Sports games etc. But some people just like to bitch, troll and create controversy online, so forums are always sucked down by such debates--furthered by people writing articles to spark such debates to bring attention to their websites and blogs.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with this at all. With that kind of thinking we should expect every genre to stay the same. Then you wouldn't get unique games like Borderlands or Mass Effect. Expecting games to change, even a little, isn't much to ask and I don't think the article or gamers are out of line in questioning it.

Nothing wrong with discussing and debating things like this. Not everything has to be group hugs and holding hands while we talk about how all games are awesome in their own way.
 
i like FF, fallout, persona, diablo, alot of ps2 rpg's... ect...
(rpg genre is not my fav genre, more like 4th or 5th)

whats the problem? play what you like, and don't worry about what you don't.
:)
 
Ironic that Final Fantasy XII should come up in a discussion like this, since much of the flack it takes is from JRPG traditionalists who object to all of the ideas it adapted from Western games.
 
[quote name='The Mana Knight']As big of a FF/JRPG fan I am, even I could possibly say that because I hated FFXII so much (big letdown, I even liked many lesser JRPGs that year way more). However, I'd say FFX >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fallout 3 (that's my opinion of course). ;)[/QUOTE]
It's no surpiring that you would hate a decent RPG like FFXII. I mean you have this crazy idea that SO3 is actually a great game.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I don't agree with this at all. With that kind of thinking we should expect every genre to stay the same. Then you wouldn't get unique games like Borderlands or Mass Effect. Expecting games to change, even a little, isn't much to ask and I don't think the article or gamers are out of line in questioning it.

Nothing wrong with discussing and debating things like this. Not everything has to be group hugs and holding hands while we talk about how all games are awesome in their own way.[/QUOTE]

I agree. But there's a difference between calling for some changes an innovations with in a genre, vs. basically calling for a genre to go away and turn into other genres.

Every genre needs changes to keep it fresh--but that doesn't mean JRPGs need to essentially turn into WRPGs as the article seemed to suggest with all the changes he wanted to see.

My bigger point is that I hate JRPGs. I don't like the stories, the characters, most of the graphic design, the linear gameplay, the turn based, menu driven combat in most etc. But I don't go around trashing them and asking for all those things to be changed.

That's simply too much for me to ask to be changed as if you change ALL of that stuff to things I like you're left with a WRPG with maybe a Japanese themed story vs. a western themed story. Thus I simply don't worry about JRPGs and ignore the genre.

Now something like WRPGs, I will discuss, and suggest things I think could be changed/improved to make me enjoy the game better. That's a worthwhile endeavor. Asking for a whole genre to pretty much turn into another already existing genre is a waste IMO. If you completely hate a genre, just don't play it or worry about it. Focus on the ones you like and how they could be improved.

Genres definitely need to evolve. But they don't need to turn into already existing genres, or even completely new genres IMO, as there's plenty of room for all the existing genres to grow in their own niches, as well as new genres to be invented.

Certain discussion of what can be improved is warranted. I just don't get why some people bother with it for genre's they just outright hate, as there's often no way to change everything one hates in that case and have it still resemble the genre in question.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Genres definitely need to evolve. But they don't need to turn into already existing genres, or even completely new genres IMO, as there's plenty of room for all the existing genres to grow in their own niches, as well as new genres to be invented.[/QUOTE]I agree with this. I'm roughly the opposite of dmaul - as far as WRPGs go, I like to dabble in Diablo-type games every once in awhile and that's pretty much it. I have tried other WRPGs and they're really not my thing. Anyway, I think the gaming space would be a much poorer place if JRPGs as a whole adopted Western conventions. They're both specific niches and they have their own particular strengths, and while I like innovation, I also like the familiarity and core mechanics of Dragon Quest, Tales, etc. Diversity between genres and cultural approaches is nothing if not good.

(As for FFXII, it was an interesting experiment, but there were certain Japanese RPG conventions it didn't do well. For example, Vaan - a Squaresoft bishie if I ever saw one - is the worst main character I've ever encountered in the Final Fantasy series. Perhaps I'll give FFXII another chance some day and actually beat it, but although I loved it at first, I ended up hating it, and not because of an East vs. West thing.)
 
[quote name='blueshinra']They're both specific niches and they have their own particular strengths, and while I like innovation, I also like the familiarity and core mechanics of Dragon Quest, Tales, etc. Diversity between genres and cultural approaches is nothing if not good.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Variety is the spice of life, so it's great there's all these different genres and sub-genres and very different styles of games with in genres etc.

Innovation is a necessity as none of us want to play the exact same game over and over and over again. But at the same time, genres have to evolve in a way that keeps the core elements that make a genre a genre in the first place in tact. Else you're seeing the death of a genre and the birth of a new one.

New genres are great, but they shouldn't come at the cost of the death an old genre. If some Japanese developers want to try making some RPGs that have real time combat, are more open ended like WRPGs etc., that's great. But it doesn't mean that the traditional JRPG needs to die off when it stil has its niche of rabid fans wanting to play more games that hold true to the genre.
 
I do agree with you, but there are certain things that can be changed and keep the genre alive. For example, saving the game wherever you want and not needing a save point. That in no way changes the genre, but would be a huge improvement.
 
Japanese Gamers/Developers fear change, (to me) they feel like games where they are now is what they are. I feel European/American developers tend to want to push the medium forward knowing that games are still in their infant stages (like movies were 60 years ago). I feel that if Japanese game developers were the sole owner of the gaming medium, we would never progress forward from where we were. For instance, we had to pull them by the ears to just put in a decent shooting mechanic and camera for MGS4...
 
[quote name='Chibi_Kaji']It's no surpiring that you would hate a decent RPG like FFXII. I mean you have this crazy idea that SO3 is actually a great game.[/QUOTE]Not really. A lot of it has to do with I just couldn't connect well with the characters in FFXII and the story just didn't suit me (its kind of like how I didn't like Vagrant Story much). There's no denying I have preference towards a sci-fi setting though, although I REALLY liked FFIX a ton. Fayt Leingod on the other hand, I just fell in love with him and Sophita, along with many of the story sequences (add the fun battle system and great soundtrack into the mix, that's why I really loved it). But it still wasn't my favorite PS2 RPG (Xenosaga Episode III, Kingdom Hearts II, and FFX were).

Also, you gotta remember I like ToS: Dawn New World also (such as Emil as a character). ;)
 
[quote name='The Mana Knight']Also, you gotta remember I like ToS: Dawn New World also (such as Emil as a character). ;)[/QUOTE]
I try not to remember that horrible game...
 
most JRPGs suck. Especially the HD ones.

There's just such a lack of creativity. It's always the same stupid shit.

More games need to be like Mother or Yakuza,or FFXII or Demon's Souls (even though I kind of hate it) and do something original and show a real passion for the type of game it is, instead of just cranking out what is expected by nerds in a half-assed way.

Early impressions of FF 13 aren't promising either. Strictly linear and confined, with a focus on a stupid story and a simplified battle system.. no thanks.
 
[quote name='The Mana Knight']Also, you gotta remember I like ToS: Dawn New World also (such as Emil as a character). ;)[/QUOTE]
Andraste's holy knickers...
 
And also the problem with Japanese voices is that they are exactly the same in EVERY game. English voiced games will ALWAYS be better than Japanese or other languages due to its variety in voice actors. If it is a Japanese game they will hire Japanese people to do ALL of the voices, which results in most Japanese movies, games, ect to sound exactly the same. When you have an English speaking game you will cast a German to voice a german character, a black guy to voice a black guy, a Japanese guy to voice a Japanese guy. I could not imagine how Kingdom Hearts would be enjoyable in another language...
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I do agree with you, but there are certain things that can be changed and keep the genre alive. For example, saving the game wherever you want and not needing a save point. That in no way changes the genre, but would be a huge improvement.[/QUOTE]

Oh absolutely. Those are the types of things that should be improved for sure.

Changing things like the types of characters and setting TOO much, changing the combat and leveling system TOO much etc. risk getting away from the core elements that make a JRPG a JRPG.

Things like adding save anywhere, ability to skip random battles, etc. etc. can (and many times have already) been changed in some games and still leave the game very much a JRPG.

I just think the article went a bit far with some of the bigger issues they wanted changed like combat, types of stories etc. as the changes the article seemed to suggest on those fronts would pretty much turn a JRPG into a WRPGs.

Story for instance, certainly needs more variety across JRPGs, but that can be tweaks without making it feel like a western Sci Fi or Western Lord of the Ring's-esque fantasy setting that would make it feel like a WRPG as it would lack the Japanese cultural influence/anime influence etc. that make many love JRPGs.

So yeah, changes definitely can and need to be made to evolve genres. People just need to not go to huge extremes that basically involve turning a genre they dislike into one they like. Changes should be more along the lines of "What can be changed to make fans of the genre love it even more."
 
At least part of the problem here is that RPG seems to encompass a much larger spectrum of games than any other genre. Originally, an RPG always seemed to mean a Final Fantasy-like game...you make a party, explore dungeons, level up, and get loot. Nowadays, RPG almost seems like a subgenre. Games like Fallout 3 and Borderlands have both have been given the RPG classification at one time or another, yet play like an FPS. This article seemed to want traditional RPG's to morph into RPG's toward the FPS end of the spectrum.

They also would have done well to mention the JRPG's that do shun conventions. Valkyria Chronicles, for example, tackled many of the criticisms in the article. You could save at any time, the combat system was completely unique, you still had people in boxes, but they were animated, and the main character was a fairly normal nature lover.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']They also would have done well to mention the JRPG's that do shun conventions. Valkyria Chronicles, for example, tackled many of the criticisms in the article. You could save at any time, the combat system was completely unique, you still had people in boxes, but they were animated, and the main character was a fairly normal nature lover.[/QUOTE]
That's what I mean when I say the genre can evolve and still remain the same. That's a great example of a game that left behind antiquated conventions, and was the better for it. More JRPGs need to follow suit.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']And also the problem with Japanese voices is that they are exactly the same in EVERY game. English voiced games will ALWAYS be better than Japanese or other languages due to its variety in voice actors. If it is a Japanese game they will hire Japanese people to do ALL of the voices, which results in most Japanese movies, games, ect to sound exactly the same. When you have an English speaking game you will cast a German to voice a german character, a black guy to voice a black guy, a Japanese guy to voice a Japanese guy. I could not imagine how Kingdom Hearts would be enjoyable in another language...[/QUOTE]

I'd imagine it sounds the same to people who don't understand Japanese very well. Also casting for a specific nationality might be true for some games, but most definitely isn't acurate across the board.
 
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