Joe Wilson proves he's the biggest idiot in congress

T

thwak

CAGiversary!
Even fox news couldn't make this guy out to look good.

WASHINGTON -- In an extraordinary breach of congressional decorum, a Republican lawmaker shouted "You lie" at President Barack Obama during his speech to Congress Wednesday.
The incident came directly after Obama said, "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."
"You lie!" Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouted from his seat on the Republican side of the chamber.
Wilson's shout drew immediate condemnation from both sides of the aisle, ultimately leading him to apologize. Wilson tried to call Obama to apologize in person, but ended up speaking to White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel.
The contrite congressman, "expressed his apologies" to Emanuel, not the president at whom he had shouted a few hours earlier, Wilson's office said.
By that time, Wilson's House Web site had crashed and he had taken a brutal beating on his Twitter page for breaching protocol and good manners during a presidential speech to a joint session of Congress.
"This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," Wilson said in a written statement. "While I disagree with the president's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility."
Immediately following the shout, Wilson seemed to sense that he had fouled up. Wilson appeared to consult his Blackberry for much of the rest of Obama's speech. He shook his head defiantly after several of the president's statements. When Obama finished, Wilson bolted from the chamber.
Wilson's wasn't the only interruption during Obama's speech, but it was the most notable.
Reaction to the outburst included criticism from members of Wilson's own party.
"Anybody who would cat-call the president of the United States addressing this body is very, very inappropriate, and he will hear from a lot of us about that," Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Calif., told FOX News Radio.
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said Wilson's behavior was "totally disrespectful. There is no place for it in that setting, or any other, and he should apologize for it immediately."
Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois called it "crude and disrespectful."
And Democratic Sen. Jim Clyburn, also of South Carolina, said Wilson "went beyond heckling."
"That was probably one of the most-insulting things I've ever seen," Clyburn told FOX News. "The people of South Carolina are not well-served by that."
House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., said "I have never in my 29 years heard an outburst of that nature with reference to a president of the United States speaking as a guest of the House and Senate."
"It was a shameful act," he told WTOP radio.
Hoyer said he'll work with GOP lawmakers to decide whether to punish Wilson.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who spoke to FOX News before learning who delivered the yell, said she didn't intend to move to sanction anyone for it.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Click to expand...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/09/congressman-yells-lie-obama-speech/



Also someone should tell him to turn off his ****ing blackberry while people are trying to pay attention to the president's speech. This guy is the reason I hate going to movie theaters now.
 
Quite a few people from both aisles said afterward that he's a really nice guy. My rep Jackson Lee (who's about as insane liberal partisan mixed with sheer stupidity as they come) actually came out to defend him.

Dude just lost his fucking mind for a minute I guess.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBxmEGG71PM

so all of the democrats were the biggest idiots in congress 4 years ago?

get off your high horse. everyone loses their cool.[/QUOTE]

Booing during a presidential address to congress is hardly unprecedented and occurs on both sides of the aisle. Calling the President of the United States a liar (which, by the way, he isn't. At least not on the point Wilson was calling him on) during a nationally televised address is a great deal more inappropriate. Comparing the two is pointless.
 
While watching the speech I was shocked when that happened.

Afterwards, I felt foolish for being shocked. I don't get the big deal and the guy should not have apologized. If people are not allowed to vocally dissent then people should not be allowed to cheer either. Why the double standard?

Who says these speeches are only for vocally agreeing or silently staying quiet? Where is that rule written?

The British have it right. At least they understand and practice free speech better than we do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_MZOoyvFc&feature=related
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']While watching the speech I was shocked when that happened.

Afterwards, I felt foolish for being shocked. I don't get the big deal and the guy should not have apologized. If people are not allowed to vocally dissent then people should not be allowed to cheer either. Why the double standard?

Who says these speeches are only for vocally agreeing or silently staying quiet? Where is that rule written?

The British have it right. At least they understand and practice free speech better than we do.
[/QUOTE]

It was rude. I don't get why that's so hard to understand. This isn't a town hall debate, it's the President of the United States speaking in front of Congress. No one would be talking about this today if he was just booing. Booing would be the counterpoint to cheering. Shouting "You lie!" is not. Just out of curiosity, what could he have said that you would feel merited an apology? Or could he have hurled a racial epitaph at the President and it's still all fine and dandy since we have free speech in this country. We understand free speech just fine, no one is going to charge Joe Wilson with a crime. That doesn't make it any less rude or deplorable.
 
Two thoughts I have about this:

#1 - It was very, very stupid of him. Although I doubt he'll lose his seat anytime soon.
#2 - He has Balls of Steel, probably because he won't lose his seat anytime soon.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']...wtf are you bringing race into the argument for :lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

I'm not bringing race into the argument, I'm just tossing it out as an example when wondering what exactly he could have said that some would have found unacceptable. Calling the President a liar seems to me to be pretty deplorable, but if you don't think that crossed the line than I was genuinely curious as to what would have. Would it have been cool if he shouted "KENYAN SOCIALIST MUSLIM!"? :D

As a counterpoint, Bush made many speeches to Congress in which he said things about Iraq we now know to be untrue. Whether he was willfully lying or not, only he knows, and I suppose opinions on that will differ. But I don't ever recall a Democratic member of Congress shouting something like "you lie!" on the floor while the President was speaking, even if they believed that privately.
 
[quote name='bvharris']Booing during a presidential address to congress is hardly unprecedented and occurs on both sides of the aisle. Calling the President of the United States a liar (which, by the way, he isn't. At least not on the point Wilson was calling him on) during a nationally televised address is a great deal more inappropriate. Comparing the two is pointless.[/QUOTE]

The reason he, and others, say the president isn't being truthful on that point is because the president loves to keep throwing out the "47 million uninsured" number to make his case.

According to the government committees that came up with that number, 9-10 million of them are illegals. So if the president truly does not intend to cover illegals, he needs to start saying 37 million.

Edit: Ultimately it's a moot point anyway. Illegals already use emergency rooms to get great health coverage, and they'll do so after any type of reform occurs still.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']The reason he, and others, say the president isn't being truthful on that point is because the president loves to keep throwing out the "47 million uninsured" number to make his case.

According to the government committees that came up with that number, 9-10 million of them are illegals. So if the president truly does not intend to cover illegals, he needs to start saying 37 million.[/QUOTE]

Whether he intends to have them covered under the proposed reform or not, I'm pretty sure illegal immigrants still qualify as people. Even if this is a valid point, and it may well be, it doesn't come close to excusing Wilson's behavior.
 
I am going to excuse Wilsons behavior. Because to me, every standing ovation and cheer is the exact same damn thing. It's a huge double standard no matter who is president.

Again, who said that when the President speaks you can only make noise if you agree with him? Please explain to me why that's a good idea or rule.

It wasn't wise of him. Calling someone a liar is a big deal, and you better be able to back it up later why you did so. But I certainly don't think it's deplorable if you think you can, nor should it be frowned on - it's freedom of expression. An apology wasn't necessary unless he really changed his mind on the president being a liar in his mind.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I am going to excuse Wilsons behavior. Because to me, every standing ovation and cheer is the exact same damn thing. It's a huge double standard no matter who is president.

Again, who said that when the President speaks you can only make noise if you agree with him? Please explain to me why that's a good idea or rule.

It wasn't wise of him. Calling someone a liar is a big deal, and you better be able to back it up later why you did so. But I certainly don't think it's deplorable if you think you can, nor should it be frowned on - it's freedom of expression. An apology wasn't necessary unless he really changed his mind on the president being a liar in his mind.[/QUOTE]

Again, booing does not equal shouting "you lie!" To equate the two is foolish. If Wilson had booed, this is not a story. Like I said, it's not like Joe Wilson is going to be punished. Nor should he be. That doesn't make it any less rude. Shouting that brings absolutely nothing to the debate, it's just representative of the fact that many Republicans would rather turn this into a bitter partisan smear-fest than have an honest debate about it. If Wilson disagrees with the President, which is his right, there are appropriate ways to dissent and there are inappropriate ways to dissent. This was the latter. Claiming otherwise is just arguing for arguing's sake, the swift rebuke from both sides of the aisle should pretty firmly establish whether what he did was considered okay by members of Congress.
 
idiot just sunk his career. i think if others in congress had joined in, it would still be a story, but just looked at in a different way. if wilson had just bood i think it would still be as big as him shouting "you lie"
 
[quote name='bvharris']Again, booing does not equal shouting "you lie!" To equate the two is foolish. If Wilson had booed, this is not a story. Like I said, it's not like Joe Wilson is going to be punished. Nor should he be. That doesn't make it any less rude. Shouting that brings absolutely nothing to the debate, it's just representative of the fact that many Republicans would rather turn this into a bitter partisan smear-fest than have an honest debate about it. If Wilson disagrees with the President, which is his right, there are appropriate ways to dissent and there are inappropriate ways to dissent. This was the latter. Claiming otherwise is just arguing for arguing's sake, the swift rebuke from both sides of the aisle should pretty firmly establish whether what he did was considered okay by members of Congress.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. People are forgetting the pretense that led up the Rep. Wilson's comments. Adding "you lie" adds nothing to the debate. Much like the shouting down people and throwing out wild accusations at townhall meetings adds nothing other than trying to silence civil discourse all together.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']idiot just sunk his career. i think if others in congress had joined in, it would still be a story, but just looked at in a different way. if wilson had just bood i think it would still be as big as him shouting "you lie"[/QUOTE]

nonsense. people boo/hiss/whistle all the time during parts of speeches they disagree with.

As the NYT report on this incident states:
Critical body language and murmurs of disapproval are typical at presidential addresses and part of the political theater. But members of both parties were trying to recollect such a pointed attack from an individual lawmaker at a presidential address and noted that a similar remark could draw a formal reprimand if delivered at a routine session of the House.

When President Clinton addressed Congress in 1993 to push his health care plan, “both sides of the aisle received the President warmly,” according to a report in The New York Times at the time.

“But when he began talking about raising taxes on tobacco to pay for the plan, or the need to cut Medicare and Medicaid, many on the Republican side of the aisle began snickering, shaking their heads skeptically and making faces at each other,” the article said.
Click to expand...

Wilson may not be an idiot, but he is an asshole, and he is certainly incorrect.

Section 246 of HR 3200 proves that Obama is correct and Wilson is the liar.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']nonsense. people boo/hiss/whistle all the time during parts of speeches they disagree with.

As the NYT report on this incident states:

Wilson may not be an idiot, but he is an asshole, and he is certainly incorrect.

Section 246 of HR 3200 proves that Obama is correct and Wilson is the liar.[/QUOTE]

Wilson has ran his mouth off in the past. He is an idiot, but his career will be just fine.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
Wilson may not be an idiot, but he is an asshole, and he is certainly incorrect.

Section 246 of HR 3200 proves that Obama is correct and Wilson is the liar.[/QUOTE]

Certainly the reactions to these speeches are very important, and both parties make big theater of when they stand, when they cheer, when they boo. The reactions of the chamber are also always part of the story of SotU and other such speeches. While such machinations are silly, they're pretty harmless, and an accepted part of the process. Wilson crossed the line, so I agree with you: Asshole. Also incorrect, but that kind of went without saying.
 
Hell, I think we need to see more of this. In the UK, opposing members of parliment boo and yell and curse at one another all the time, they're very polite about it, but it's a regular occurence. Look at all those countries where legislative meetings literally turn into brawls with people hitting one another with chairs and what not. Our sessions of congress are so boring in comparison, so I for one applaud Congressman Wilson in his actions.
 
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[quote name='spmahn']Hell, I think we need to see more of this. In the UK, opposing members of parliment boo and yell and curse at one another all the time, they're very polite about it, but it's a regular occurence. Look at all those countries where legislative meeting literally turn into brawls with people hitting one anothing with chairs and what not. Our sessions of congress are so boring in comparison, so I for one applaud Congressman Wilson in his actions.[/QUOTE]


I totally agree. I started reading this thread and my mind went directly to every British parlimentary debate I've ever watched. At least, every one I've seen in HoC.

This was not a traditional address. It's sole purpose was to advertise and push his position on the healthcare issue, and unabashedly, a use of the 'bully pulpit'. In that sense, I think this should outbursting should become a more common practice. If the voice of the people at town hall meetings isn't valid to some, where else will the living voice of the people be heard if not from their representatives on live television?
 
cnn and other news outlets have been pointing to a report from congressional research service which says that "immigrants living illegally in the United States could be mandated to have health insurance under the proposed health care reform bill but would be ineligible to receive subsidies to afford such coverage."

so is obama a liar in saying that illegal immigrants will not be covered?
 
[quote name='tivo']cnn and other news outlets have been pointing to a report from congressional research service which says that "immigrants living illegally in the United States could be mandated to have health insurance under the proposed health care reform bill but would be ineligible to receive subsidies to afford such coverage."

so is obama a liar in saying that illegal immigrants will not be covered?[/QUOTE]

did you just read what you typed?

They are mandated to HAVE insurance, but won't be covered by it.

It's like saying, you have to get insurance, but we can't provide you some.

The incident came directly after Obama said, "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."
Click to expand...

A similar situation would be like car insurance. Some states require you to have it. They mandate it. It's not illegal till you get pulled over, nice fine too, but they force you to get it still. But just like us, the illegals will have to pay 100% out of pocket for it.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']Wilson has ran his mouth off in the past. He is an idiot, but his career will be just fine.[/QUOTE]

Yeah he had angry words for Strom Thurmond's biracial daughter for daring to exist and managed to coast by with a half assed apology.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']nonsense. people boo/hiss/whistle all the time during parts of speeches they disagree with.

[/QUOTE]

i agree with that. but what i meant was, if he had stood up, during the same part of the speach and bood loudly, alone, it would probably still be a story.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']The reason he, and others, say the president isn't being truthful on that point is because the president loves to keep throwing out the "47 million uninsured" number to make his case.

According to the government committees that came up with that number, 9-10 million of them are illegals. So if the president truly does not intend to cover illegals, he needs to start saying 37 million.

Edit: Ultimately it's a moot point anyway. Illegals already use emergency rooms to get great health coverage, and they'll do so after any type of reform occurs still.[/QUOTE]

Did you watch or read the speech? He said 30 million uninsured last night--as new estimates from the Census bureau due out today I believe (read about it on Politico earlier) say about 17 million consist of illegals (11-12 million) and people eligible for Medicaid who haven't signed up (about 5 million).


Anyway, yeah, that outburst was classless, and I'd be annoyed if it happened to Bush as well. That's not the time or place for those kind of outbursts. Have your own press conference later and articulate your disagreement rather than shouting out like some simpleminded peon at a town hall.
 
Normally I wouldn't get into to this but.....


This week conservatives have in essence stated that the president telling their children to study hard, listen to their parents and teachers, believe in themselves, and to help others is propaganda and brainwashing. Who knew theses weren't conservative values?

Then a representative from South Carolina (Where they still fly the confederate battle flag) yells out in a joint session of Congress that the president is a liar. Priceless.

See what we have here is a breach of protocol and a pretty bad one. Everyone on this form should completely understand this. Go on "insert favorite on-line game" and brake common practices and or standards even though it may be your right to do so. Trust me you will hear about it. Now call the president a liar during a nationally televised address to the Nation and well you're gonna hear about it. If he booed, no issue, but what he did crossed the line of the culture in congress. I could care less what they do in other countries that's their standards not ours. While I don't know enough about this guy to brand him for life he certainly deserves the criticism he is recieving from both sides of the aisle. What a week for the GOP and we still have Friday to go. Come on Rush you have to have something to say about this!!! Now that would be the cherry on top!!
 
[quote name='tivo']cnn and other news outlets have been pointing to a report from congressional research service which says that "immigrants living illegally in the United States could be mandated to have health insurance under the proposed health care reform bill but would be ineligible to receive subsidies to afford such coverage."

so is obama a liar in saying that illegal immigrants will not be covered?[/QUOTE]

It means that we won't have to pay for it out of our pocket so what's the problem?

And please stop acting like could means will.
 
That's the biggest falsehood of the whole campaign though. Many hospitals provide free care for people that can't afford whether they're illegal or not.
 
emergency rooms can't deny you care. they're certainly not going to check the citizenship of people before they treat bullet wounds and shit. that's different then say, a pregnant woman getting frequent checkups with her obstetrician to make sure she's getting proper nourishment and not exposing her baby to harmful things (cigarettes, alcohol, etc.)

oh and for those people who think we should take a page out of UK's system of parliamentary debate....how about we also emulate their universal health care system?

I think Stephen Hawking is a cool guy, eh likes universal health care and doesnt afraid of ANYTHING.
 
[quote name='depascal22']That's the biggest falsehood of the whole campaign though. Many hospitals provide free care for people that can't afford whether they're illegal or not.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely true. One of the reasons health care is so expensive is because a high percentage of them default on collection and that loss is reflected in inflated charges to paying customers. Another reason is due to the high cost of malpractice insurance, a topic usually left out of this debate when talking about evil insurers.

One good thing about a national health care is eliminating the need for malpractice insurance. When doctors become federal employees, you will not be able to sue them for killing or maiming you or someone you love.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Absolutely true. One of the reasons health care is so expensive is because a high percentage of them default on collection and that loss is reflected in inflated charges to paying customers. Another reason is due to the high cost of malpractice insurance, a topic usually left out of this debate when talking about evil insurers.

One good thing about a national health care is eliminating the need for malpractice insurance. When doctors become federal employees, you will not be able to sue them for killing or maiming you or someone you love.[/QUOTE]

Do you even have a point, man? One minute you're decrying the high cost of malpractice insurance. Next you're fear-mongering that the govt wants to abolish malpractice. I get the "govt is bad" vibe, but everything else is coming out gibberish.

Seriously, the only way you could make a more muddled catchphrase-happy post would be to slap in something about Joe Stalin, Nazis, and a 'will somebody think of the children' tagline.
 
Why does Obama Stalin continue to support a Nazi policy of eugenics? He wants to systematically kill Americans! Will somebody PLEASE think of the children?!?!?
 
Listening to an NPR piece this evening asking residents of Joe Wilson's district what they thought of his outburst, this gem came out of one man who was interviewed, with no sense of irony whatsoever:

"He was just calling a spade a spade."

:shock:
 
[quote name='tivo']cnn and other news outlets have been pointing to a report from congressional research service which says that "immigrants living illegally in the United States could be mandated to have health insurance under the proposed health care reform bill but would be ineligible to receive subsidies to afford such coverage."

so is obama a liar in saying that illegal immigrants will not be covered?[/QUOTE]

You take one line from one news article that uses as its majority source a partisan Lou Dobbs-style fiercely anti-immigration organization, along with *one* sentence from the CRS (a sentence that uses the word "could") to try to refute the iron-clad language of HR 3200?

You can do better than this. You could, for instance, think for yourself. If I had a nickel for everytime I saw someone posting a right-wing discussion on this matter today that cited that one sentence, I could buy everyone in this thread health insurance.

You're committing internet plagiarism by aping a sentence/link that (1) isn't very good and (2) does a pretty poor job of making the claim you think it does.

Please do your own work in the future. Even if we disagree, the least you could do is bring something to the table that isn't a dime-a-dozen blog comment I've read five dozen fucking times today.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You take one line from one news article that uses as its majority source a partisan Lou Dobbs-style fiercely anti-immigration organization, along with *one* sentence from the CRS (a sentence that uses the word "could") to try to refute the iron-clad language of HR 3200?

You can do better than this. You could, for instance, think for yourself. If I had a nickel for everytime I saw someone posting a right-wing discussion on this matter today that cited that one sentence, I could buy everyone in this thread health insurance.

You're committing internet plagiarism by aping a sentence/link that (1) isn't very good and (2) does a pretty poor job of making the claim you think it does.

Please do your own work in the future. Even if we disagree, the least you could do is bring something to the table that isn't a dime-a-dozen blog comment I've read five dozen fucking times today.[/QUOTE]
Here's the problem. There is a loophole in the bill.
While the report found that federal subsidies to obtain health coverage would be restricted to U.S. citizens and legal residents, it also noted that the bill does not specify a citizenship verification system, something that critics say creates a loophole for undocumented immigrants to receive subsidies anyway.
The report, released Tuesday, "undermines the claims of the president and others that illegal immigrants would not be covered under the House version of the bill," Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies, told CNN.
The non profit think tank favors "an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest" and what it calls on its Web site a "pro-immigrant, low-immigration" vision that lowers the number of immigrants in favor of a "warmer welcome for those admitted."
The bill specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving payments, but opponents of the reform say that without verification, the system is open to abuse.
Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nevada, last month proposed an amendment in the House Ways and Means Committee to add a verification process. Democrats on that committee, including Rep. Xavier Becerra of California, voted it down because the rules it called for would be "unworkable," the Democrat said.
Click to expand...
However:
But when it comes to qualifying for government subsidies for coverage for people who aren't already covered by employers or federal programs, eligibility would be based on immigration status, the report says, barring illegal immigrants from aid.
Click to expand...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/27/health.care.immigrants/index.html?eref=rss_us
So, in reality it's a convoluted mess. Par for the course.
 
I read the article when tivo posted it and when the three thousand other people who read the same blogs you do who don't think for themselves posted it already.

Thanks though.
 
For the record, I'm a libertarian and only started this topic because I found it hilarious that someone would be stupid enough to heckle the president during a televised speech to congress. If you do that, in my mind you're an idiot. It doesn't make yourself look good and it doesn't make your party look good as well.

Also for the record the people talking about how parliament works in the UK, that doesn't happen all the time. That's only during question time in the parliament, the rest of the stuff that goes on is about as boring as what goes on over here in the u.s.
 
I think there's more than enough political screaming in the modern US discourse anyway.

Less WWF, more debate high school style. Discourse.
 
Question - and someone help me out here...

I've read several places that the plan on the table will require that illegal immigrants have health coverage*, but will not allow them to be covered by the proposed government option. Is this true?

*Aside from the obvious "How are we going to make sure they're covered when we can't even enforce existing laws in regards to them as it is?"
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Listening to an NPR piece this evening asking residents of Joe Wilson's district what they thought of his outburst, this gem came out of one man who was interviewed, with no sense of irony whatsoever:

"He was just calling a spade a spade."

:shock:[/QUOTE]

[quote name='IRHari']That's a great soundbyte, how does NPR manage to get the racists position on this topic lol.[/QUOTE]

In the yokel's defense, it's entirely possible that wasn't his meaning. I use that expression sometimes and the potential racial undertones never factor in, though I'm aware of them. It's conceivable that the guy simply didn't know that spade can also be an ethnic slur, I'm sure many don't. It's a common expression.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']When doctors become federal employees, you will not be able to sue them for killing or maiming you or someone you love.[/QUOTE]

That's another falsehood. You can sue the federal government and the individual workers. Admittedly, it will be much harder but it's still possible. It's only federal workers that can't sue the federal government for bad care they get.

When I was in the Air Force, it was made very clear that we could never object or fight the health care we got but our families could. It was a weird situation that, luckily, never came to bear but that's how it was.

Also, this bill doesn't made doctors federal employees at all. Health care systems will still contiune to exist.
 
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