Joystiq/Penny Arcade Squabble over "Editorial"

beerguy961

beerguy961

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Read the story here: http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/15/penny-arcade-responds-to-our-hideous-editorial-misses-the-poi/

Now I'll state that I agree with Joystiq here because the argument makes sense to me. From an economic standpoint and as analogy to the optimal foraging theory (I don't claim to be an econ/anthropologic genius, I've just taken classes). Simply put, the optimal foraging theory states that a hunter will go after the best return for whatever currency (protein, calories, vitamins, whatever they are seeking) for their time; Thus they will usually ignore a squirrel when they hunt (setting traps is not "hunting" in this case) to go after bigger game (deer, elk) even though they'll encounter the squirrel more often, simply because it has a better value for the hunter. More here if you want a better explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_foraging_theory

How this relates to this argument is in the idea that all things being equal, people, being the intelligent hunters we are, will go after the "better deal" every time. For example, you take two items at the same price that we desire equally that we understand to give us equal amounts of entertainment (all things being equal), if we know that Company A makes $100 of profit on the item and Company B loses $100 for every item sold, we will go after Company B because it is a better deal. Even though they are essentially the same from the standpoint of currency (currency being what we value out of the item), we will seek the better value (ie the one that costs more to make) if all else is equal.

This is simply my understanding of it, anybody else with a different viewpoint is welcome to state their opinion, but please try to clearly state your argument and don't allow it to become like the comments on the Joystiq article ("What if Y is negative?" - Moron).

Another issue with this is Penny Arcade's Jerry Holkins truly disrespecting an important gaming news outlet and basically calling the editor (name escapes me as I type this) an idiot. His writing style has always been very conceited and using "big words" seems to be a ploy of his to say that "I may not have had a big college education but I know words". To write stuff like that and put it on your website, which millions of people read everyday, makes you look like an asshole. Not to say that he doesn't have a right to do so, but it makes him look like a dick. Needless to say, I like Gabe better. His writing style is much better suited for the gaming/regular world.

Hope that I see some comments on this. No matter what people say, if there are people discussing this, I'll be happier after my test that's going to rape me...
 
The fact that he decided he was going to get all intellectual and throw around Latin opens him up to abuse. No one knows what the hell he's talking about unless they took his logic class, so he's just talking down to everyone.

And as for the actual topic... it's far too simplistic. Example:

Sony makes a 40" TV that sells at $1200, and it cost them $800 to make.
Panasonic makes a 40" TV that sells at $1200 and cost them $1000 to make.

Assuming their functionality and quality are identical, would anyone make a decision on which to buy based on the manufacturer's cost? Why would they? Consumers don't care. I would be absolutely shocked if any retail employee could share a story where a customer was looking at a couple TVs, and his tie-breaking question was "So which TV cost more to make?"

As far as using that to describe the PS3 and Wii, it's completely irrelevant. All things are not equal with the two machines, so the value to the consumer is the determining factor. It's as if someone were to compare a DVD player and a boombox, because they both play CDs.
 
The joystiq article raises some good points IMO and is something I've considered myself, but as rodeo already said ceteris paribus (all other things being equal) never happens in the real world. Obviously in this case the main factors are/will be completely unequal (MSRP, console power, game line up).

What that means for me is that it will come down to which console has more games I want coupled with the total cost (not company profit margin) as my main buying factor.

Now if the more powerful sold-at-a-loss 360 and PS3 do translate into a better gaming experience that will perhaps lead me to spend the extra money to buy in. Just have to wait and see. 360 is already out and nothing so far has motivated me to spend the cash.

PA had the best line of all three articles with "When reading it, it may help you to know that "ceteris paribus" is Latin for look how fucking smart I am."
 
I want a cupcake. It costs fifty cents.

It also has sprinkles and cream filling.

There's also a cake. It costs 2 bucks.

But all I want is the cupcake. And the fucker selling me the cake won't cut me a fifty cent piece. He says I have to buy the whole cake. I'm also paying for the shitty pan it's in, which I'm just going to throw away.

The argument is that I am stupid to get the cupcake, despite that it appeals to me more (sprinkles and filling) and costs less.

That's a pretty atrocious argument.
 
I thought PA's response was a little harsh.

big20060515.gif
 
[quote name='Strell']I want a cupcake. It costs fifty cents.

It also has sprinkles and cream filling.

There's also a cake. It costs 2 bucks.

But all I want is the cupcake. And the fucker selling me the cake won't cut me a fifty cent piece. He says I have to buy the whole cake. I'm also paying for the shitty pan it's in, which I'm just going to throw away.

The argument is that I am stupid to get the cupcake, despite that it appeals to me more (sprinkles and filling) and costs less.

That's a pretty atrocious argument.[/QUOTE]
But that's not equal to you because you desire the cupcake more, thus that's the right decision. It's not saying that you're stupid to want the cupcake. The cupcake has a higher value in terms of your wants/needs.
 
[quote name='beerguy961']But that's not equal to you because you desire the cupcake more, thus that's the right decision. It's not saying that you're stupid to want the cupcake. The cupcake has a higher value in terms of your wants/needs.[/QUOTE]

But isn't that the dude's argument? That it basically boils down to bang for buck?

He's calling it "subsidy" when all he's really saying is "By buying a console ____ loses money on, you're gaining that money because you didn't pay for it."

The second argument he made is completely different from his first one. Now he's saying "there's only a certain price that you'd pay that equates to what you get." I.e., a tangerine Wii being $250 is no better than a white Wii being $200. Which is saying "why would you pay another $50 when it's only worth $200?"

You can't sit there and make up an argument about how a "rational gamer" only buys things that are "rationally worth it" because of a "subsidy." He's telling us that if we were given the opportunity to build our own consoles, we'd have to pay 400 + X to build a Premium 360. But since Microsoft is picking up the tab on the X, we're saving a bundle of money.

It doesn't work that way if one thing appeals to me more, and I feel that the price is worth it. He's saying Nintendo is cheating us because they make a profit, where as MS and Sony are handing us free money when we buy their system due to their losses.

That is insane. And throwing around an "all else being equal" line? Give me a break. The consoles obviously are the worst thing in the world to use that line on. They accomplish the same basic goal, but they do it all in different ways.

Now if MS, Sony, and Nintendo all sold pencils, and they were all made of wood and cylindrical and sharpenable, THEN we could pretend that they are all essentially equal since they all would be used in the same exact manner with the same exact goal in mind.
 
[quote name='beerguy961']

Another issue with this is Penny Arcade's Jerry Holkins truly disrespecting an important gaming news outlet and basically calling the editor (name escapes me as I type this) an idiot.
.[/QUOTE]

Joystiq isn't an important gaming news outlet.

I can't remember when Joystiq was given a big exclusive over Gamespy, 1up, IGN, Gamespot... oh wait, I do remember Joystiq's big "exclusive".

Seriously, when linking to news, it always comes from one of the big 4, and never something like Joystiq. Maybe because they just copy all their news from the big 4.

As of late, between the "exclusive" screw up and now this, Joystiq is really driving for attention these days.
 
Joystiq sucks shit.

And if you think Penny Arcade is being "pretentious" and "holier than thou" for using "BIG WORDS", it's ok if you don't get it.

It's not for you.
 
[quote name='B:L']Ham indeed. :hot:
[/QUOTE]

Oh c'mon. "It's not for you" was originally used in regards to Twisp and Catsby.

Yes, I am a nerd.
 
Copy and pasted from what I said in Wii forum:


If companies like Sony and Microsoft want to subsidize their consoles to the the point that they're losing money on every unit sold, shouldn't we (as rational consumers) want to take advantage of this built-in subsidy? All else equal, shouldn't a rational consumer choose the console with the largest built-in subsidy?

Yeah , that's what happens. That's why people buy electronics instead of food, right? Oh wait, there's that thing called marginal utility. All things being equal(as in the two consoles are IDENTICAL in every form), they would choose the cheapest console. Even if things aren't equal, which they're not, people buy things based on their utility within their budget line.

Sony and Microsoft are giving us free hardware when they sell each console at a loss. A gamer who wants the most computing power for his buck will naturally prefer the subsidized console, ceteris paribus. Whether this is ultimately healthy for Microsoft and Sony is another matter entirely. The ultimate profitability of a game manufacturer is no concern of ours, as gamers.

Yeah, the console is free. That's why you paid money for it, right? It's not that it's at a rate lower than its production cost or anything, it's free and my wallet just opened up and the money ran out. Again, people puchase within income restraints dependent on their marginal utlity. If the Ps3 was $60, but they hate Sony games, then it doesn't matter. If you could buy a super computer for 2 million dollars that's been subsidized by 200 million, would you? Get out your credit card, because by your logic you'd be a fool not to!
Also, Stop using the term "subsidy", because it's not. It's a fucking loss. If it were subsidized, someone would be paying them the extra $300 to sell their system at such a loss, and the last time I checked no one's doing that. The loss can be technically subsidized by software sales or microtransactions, but the amount would have to be greater than or equal to the loss, and with initial sales there's no subsidy and there's NO guarantee the lost revenue can be covered in the future (see Xbox division). In the way this is being used, it's incorrect and clearly something this person googled to try and sound smart.

One final point: if a company doesn't believe in its product enough to take a small loss at launch, what does this risk averseness say about executive confidence in the long-run prospects of the product? A larger, up-front investment indicates stronger confidence that a product will eventually be successful enough to pay for initial investment.

So, because a company wants to make a profit they have no confidence in their product? By your logic, shit everywhere should be dirt cheap. The Ps3 should only be $25. I mean, they're confident in it right?

Most comments below are ignoring the ceteris paribus stipulation of the argument. For this argument to work, one must assume that all else is equal. To put it another way, would you buy a Wii at $600 or at $100? You'd buy it at $100, because the $600 model is exactly the same. Most rebuttals are bringing in objections that violate the core stipulation.
I don't need to say anything here. The idiocy speaks for itself.



In Summation: Purchasing decisions are made based on utility within a consumer's budget line, not based on the "subsidy" of a product(which is incorrect here. It's not a subsidy, it's a fuckinging loss, no one is paying them the additional $300 to sell their console at $600). People don't buy things by taking the producer's bottom line into account. This type of baseless idiocy is what happens when people think that since they took introduction to MicroEconomics for a quarter and they remember what CETERIS PARIBUS, they're economists.
----------------------------------

The same guy posted a rebuttal saying that if there were two versions of the Wii, say the white one and an orange one, but they were exactly the same outside of color, but the white one was $250 and the orange one was$600 that everone would buy the white one. Unfortunately for him, that's also false because the utility you'd get from purchasing the orange one could be higher than what'd you'd get from purchasing the white one(maybe it matches your decor perfectly, or inspires you when you look at it). If it falls within his/her budget line, then the fact that it's cheaper is negated for that person. It's also important to remember that people will not buy something just because it's cheaper unless the goods are perfect subsitutes, and even then, that's not always true (for example, buying gifts).

I honestly don't know what point he's trying to prove.
 
The guy from Joystiq just wants everyone to know that he goes to the Wharton Business School at UPenn. He reminds everyone once a month or better.
 
[quote name='gofishn']The guy from Joystiq just wants everyone to know that he goes to the Wharton Business School at UPenn. He reminds everyone once a month or better.[/QUOTE]

In his case, D's get degrees. That's what happens when people think that because a school is Ivy it's good.
 
I side with PA, the Joystiq guy is being a douchebag. There's no "supposed to buy" anything, there's your own god damn opinion and needs. If I want to play Wii, which I do, I'm gonna f*ckin' buy a Wii. If I want to play PS3, which I do, I'm gonna f*ckin' buy a PS3. Already have a 360 ;)

Anyways, nobody should EVER be guilt tripped into buying a console just because someone is losing money on it. Sony and Microsoft have the ability to make up their losses as technology gets cheaper and they gain more and more royalties for more games being published on their systems. I love all three consoles, but I don't shed a tear for a single f*cking one of them.
 
I really don't care that two websites are fighting. Until they send robots that fight to the death, into the streets to battle it out. I'll be here typing at CAG.
 
[quote name='Graystone']I really don't care that two websites are fighting. Until they send robots that fight to the death, into the streets to battle it out. I'll be here typing at CAG.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I only care about PA for their comics. I don't care about Joystiq.
 
[quote name='Lobsterjohnson']I thought PA's response was a little harsh.

big20060515.gif
[/QUOTE]
lol

Who did that?
 
That Joystiq article was really bad. I mean no one wants to read that crap. Who cares how much they lose on the sale, they still made the sale.

Right now with their image being bad, they need to be more careful with what they post. It only reminds people their past F'ups.
 
[quote name='Strell']Oh c'mon. "It's not for you" was originally used in regards to Twisp and Catsby.

Yes, I am a nerd.[/quote]
The Exuberance is Insubstantial!

EDIT:The concept of value is nebulous at best.

Buying an item at below the cost to the producer isn't like getting free money. It's that logic that gets a 16 year old girl in trouble with her first credit card: "Look how much I saved!"
 
The original article is just crap. Probably not even worth responding to. Its unfortunate that someone did, and gave it more attention than it ever deserved.

Author not only assumes ceteris paribus, he criticizes people for not making the same assumption in their rebuttals. Making an argument based on a competely flawed (and absurd) premise, then asking everyone to simply accept your premise, just doesn't work. Good luck doing that in the boardroom.


Vladimir: If the Earth had no air, we could make a killing selling it. Lets start selling some right now and make a fortune.

Exec: But, theres air everywhere. In fact, we're breathing it right now.

Vladimir: You're ignoring my premise! Don't rebut me unless you assume my premise is 100% correct!


He's assuming that all 3 systems deliver performance in direct proportion to their cost to manufacture, and that performance = enjoyment. The system that loses the most money may not deliver the best performance, and the system with the best performance may not deliver the most entertainment. This is a statement that I would be embarrassed to make on an internet message board, let alone in an article on a 2nd tier videogame website.
 
In response to OP, logically, no one will EVER cross paths with a squirrel. Getting on a squirrel's bad side is the last thing you want to do in life.
 
There's nothing funnier than reading the crying between someone who constantly has to prove that they're smart despite not going to college, and someone who constantly tries to prove they're smart because they are in college. They both sound like idiots. Eh, at least I like the charity work PA does, if nothing else.
 
Found this at the bottom of PA's latest post.

"He's not some partisan out to score points for the "home team," or some Soviet dipshit like we've had to contend with recently."
Click to expand...

Tell us how you really feel Tycho...

And people wonder why I think those two are complete idiots.
 
[quote name='daphatty']And people wonder why I think those two are complete idiots.[/quote]And we're still wondering...

Although I have my guesses, seeing as how you're condemning GABE also for Tycho's argument. :booty:
 
[quote name='daphatty']
And people wonder why I think those two are complete idiots.[/QUOTE]

Naw. I resolved the fact that you were a useless troll in anything PA related a while ago.

You're the VanillaGorilla of PA hating.
 
[quote name='B:L']And we're still wondering...

Although I have my guesses, seeing as how you're condemning GABE also for Tycho's argument. :booty:[/QUOTE]

Well, I suppose you are correct since Gabe isn't really involved. Unfortunately, you can't have one without the other.

[quote name='Strell']Naw. I resolved the fact that you were a useless troll in anything PA related a while ago.

You're the VanillaGorilla of PA hating.[/QUOTE]

Lies! Exagerrations!

I've only really stated that "they aren't really as funny as people think" and I usually accompany that with "they are very talented comic artists though." Hey, at least I give credit where credit is due.
 
I heard the guys from Joystiq are douches. But hey, that's rumors for you. I don't really want to read much into this, because to be honest I'm not interested. All I know is Penny Arcade is good. Not VG Cats good, but good none the less
 
I could careless about this. But, I agree with DaPhatty about Tycho. His posts' are nearly unreadable. To whomever said stfu about Tycho's reading and quite crying because you can't understand. I understand it. And it sucks. I have no idea why he writes seemingly "simple" blog-posts as if they were exerpts from some thesis statement. Take this for example:

"All the news about Nintendo's newest "thiing" is on the table, and now - with great consternation - the Internet responds. We obtained a digital audio recorder to make recording podcasts for you a straightforward enterprise, and I think we're close, but our extended meditation on today's facts and figures was somehow devoured by the machine I have just described. So, I'll try to remember the stuff that stood out."

I can't believe he used all those words to simply tell us that they bought a recorder to make a podcast about their thoughts about the Wii, but were unable to because the said recorder malfunctioned.

Initially, there was a period where we ridiculed the new system's strange desire to tell us what the weather was like. You would have heard us slowly come to the realization that this feature (like the included news ticker) would be completely profound to people who are not us. He had a relative who relied upon the - brace yourselves, brothers and sisters - WebTV of all things, and it was a simple matter to imagine that person turning on the system in the morning to grab headlines and catch the weather. They don't check the weather, as I might, on some Windows Mobile 5.0 doodad. Doodads make them... uneasy. "

Again. Why use so many words to tell readers that he is not interested in the various non-gaming functions of the Wii, such as the news ticker or weather report, but other users might be?

He is an author of a damn blog. His primary audience are gamers. I'm not trying to insult the intelligence of gamers, but C'MON. Gabe's posts are short, concise, to the point, and "smart" in regards to writing. Does anyone think Gabe is a moron for this? Of course not. /rant over.
 
Its always entertaining with PA gets into squabbles with people. Like Jack Thompson. And that business with SoE sent them like a thousand Krispy Kremes
 
[quote name='A Happy Panda']I could careless about this. But, I agree with DaPhatty about Tycho. His posts' are nearly unreadable. To whomever said stfu about Tycho's reading and quite crying because you can't understand. I understand it. And it sucks. I have no idea why he writes seemingly "simple" blog-posts as if they were exerpts from some thesis statement. Take this for example:

"All the news about Nintendo's newest "thiing" is on the table, and now - with great consternation - the Internet responds. We obtained a digital audio recorder to make recording podcasts for you a straightforward enterprise, and I think we're close, but our extended meditation on today's facts and figures was somehow devoured by the machine I have just described. So, I'll try to remember the stuff that stood out."

I can't believe he used all those words to simply tell us that they bought a recorder to make a podcast about their thoughts about the Wii, but were unable to because the said recorder malfunctioned.

Initially, there was a period where we ridiculed the new system's strange desire to tell us what the weather was like. You would have heard us slowly come to the realization that this feature (like the included news ticker) would be completely profound to people who are not us. He had a relative who relied upon the - brace yourselves, brothers and sisters - WebTV of all things, and it was a simple matter to imagine that person turning on the system in the morning to grab headlines and catch the weather. They don't check the weather, as I might, on some Windows Mobile 5.0 doodad. Doodads make them... uneasy. "

Again. Why use so many words to tell readers they he is not interested in the various non-gaming functions of the Wii, such as the news ticker or weather report, but other users might be?

He is an author of a damn blog. His primary audience are gamers. I'm not trying to insult the intelligence of gamers, but C'MON. Gabe's posts are short, concise, to the point, and "smart" in regards to writing. Does anyone think Gabe is a moron for this? Of course not. /rant over.[/QUOTE]


Thank you! This has been my argument all along. Glad to see I'm not the only one.
 
[quote name='daphatty']Thank you! This has been my argument all along. Glad to see I'm not the only one.[/quote]The mindless mob forms...

Yeah, you're right! And why did Johnathan Swift use all those words just to say that we should eat babies in his modest proposal!? He should have just came out and said it so I could read it easier!!!

Of course, I guess not everyone could stomach good satire. But it's no reason to condemn someone for their literary methods.

Again,

It's not for you.
 
[quote name='B:L']The mindless mob forms...

Yeah, you're right! And why did Johnathan Swift use all those words just to say that we should eat babies in his modest proposal!? He should have just came out and said it so I could read it easier!!!

Of course, I guess not everyone could stomach good satire. But it's no reason to condemn someone for their literary methods.

Again,

It's not for you.[/QUOTE]

Then why do you keep trying to convince everyone it's good satire? They don't like it, you do... is that simple enough for you?

Anyway, back to the original topic. I never took the Joystiq post as advice for consumers or related to consumers in any way. I read it as an analyzation of the companies involved (Sony, Nintendo, MS), in which case it was an interesting read.
 
[quote name='daphatty']
Lies! Exagerrations!

I've only really stated that "they aren't really as funny as people think" and I usually accompany that with "they are very talented comic artists though." Hey, at least I give credit where credit is due.[/QUOTE]

With comments like this?

:p

I'd dig up more but I'm lazy...

And guys, seriously. Like any good celebrity of any medium and degree, Tycho employs a schtick. Hell, everyone uses one on the 'net. It's a personal voice.

If you don't like that style, you don't like that style. But when you overlay that with insults and such, then you're losing your original intention.

You might not like Picasso, but it doesn't change the fact that he was talented. There's a difference.
 
[quote name='Strell']
And guys, seriously. Like any good celebrity of any medium and degree, Tycho employs a schtick. Hell, everyone uses one on the 'net. It's a personal voice.
[/QUOTE]

Strell knows better than anyone ;)

You're a celebrity... to me
 
[quote name='slimpip']Then why do you keep trying to convince everyone it's good satire? They don't like it, you do... is that simple enough for you?[/quote]Look, kid. I don't need someone using an avatar that I had 6 years ago tell me what I'm trying to do, especially when they're absolutely wrong.

Strell said it best. There's no need to condemn something as idiocy just because you don't like it. I'm just trying to convince them of the same fact.

Besides, you're talking to the wrong guy. They're the ones that wanted simplicity.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']Strell knows better than anyone ;)

You're a celebrity... to me [/QUOTE]

*Response involving the word wang or cock*

ITALICS INSERTED HERE
 
[quote name='Strell']*Response involving the word wang or cock*

ITALICS INSERTED HERE[/QUOTE]

:rofl: oh, some classic Strell, how I missed thee.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']:rofl: oh, some classic Strell, how I missed thee.[/QUOTE]

Aww dammit. I totally underutilized the word "inserted" up there. That was another cock joke in the making.
 
[quote name='Strell']Aww dammit. I totally underutilized the word "inserted" up there. That was another cock joke in the making.[/QUOTE]

I definitely would have liked to have seen some of that hot litearary play on words action .

How the hell do you spell Literarrrary??
 
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