Judge Alito is the SCOTUS nominee

sgs89

CAGiversary!
I thought this nomination deserved its own thread (not the one posted by PAD about quotes changing over time).

Judge Sam Alito is a judge on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. Here is his bio:

http://air.fjc.gov/servlet/tGetInfo?jid=26

While some have called him Scalito, that really isn't fair. Judge Alito has some differences in judicial philosophy from Justice Scalia.

This will be an interesting confirmation process. Judge Alito is obviously qualified -- good credentials (if not to Roberts' level), has served as an appellate judge for over 10 years, etc. He did dissent from a case striking down a spousal notification law. That will become a center point of the debate, no doubt.

Let the games begin!
 
The Pennsylvania Spousal Notification law was signed into law by Bob Casey (D) who was strongly pro-life. So much so he was denied, several times, a speaking post at a DNC convention. Planned Parenhood v. Casey was the lawsuit that resulted from the legislative case. . At the time both houses of the Pennsylvania legislature were Democraticly controlled. It took several years to work this case through the courts to get to the 3rd Circuit.

It had nothing to do with getting a husband's permission or having him consent but informing him such a procedure took place. I really fail to see how that is intrusive on a woman's "right" to choose. Just as I see no sense in being opposed to parental notification of an underage girl getting an abortion. If parents are needed to sign off of field trips, tattoos, piercings why shouldn't they be needed to consent to an invasive medical procedure? If something goes terribly wrong and the child is injured you just know CYS or some county/state agency would be all over those parents for "neglect".
 
This is the case:

A dissenting opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 947 F.2d 682 (3d Cir. 1991), arguing that a Pennsylvania law that required women seeking abortions to inform their husbands should have been upheld. As Judge Alito reasoned, "[t]he Pennsylvania legislature could have rationally believed that some married women are initially inclined to obtain an abortion without their husbands' knowledge because of perceived problems--such as economic constraints, future plans, or the husbands' previously expressed opposition--that may be obviated by discussion prior to the abortion." Chief Justice Rehnquist's dissent from the Supreme Court's 5-4 [corrected] decision striking down the spousal notification provision of the law quoted Judge Alito's dissent and expressed support for Judge Alito's reasoning.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark'] Just as I see no sense in being opposed to parental notification of an underage girl getting an abortion. If parents are needed to sign off of field trips, tattoos, piercings why shouldn't they be needed to consent to an invasive medical procedure? If something goes terribly wrong and the child is injured you just know CYS or some county/state agency would be all over those parents for "neglect".[/QUOTE]

Because sometimes it is the father that has caused the pregnancy. In this case, notifying the parents would be disastrous.
 
In those rare instances permission should be awarded by a Judge. Some adult must have say over the welfare of a minor. I fail to see how adult involvement is "disasterous".
 
He'll be approved (unless he screws up the confirmation hearings royally). He's red meat for the religious right and he's not so horribly unqualified (ahem, Miers) that he would get blocked on the left. He's the kind of nominee I've expected all along form Dubya.

I'm not happy about it, just resigned to the inevitable.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']In those rare instances permission should be awarded by a Judge. Some adult must have say over the welfare of a minor. I fail to see how adult involvement is "disasterous".[/QUOTE]

And you think this will happen in secret? You think the abusive parent won't find out? It's not enough that the child in this case has been abused - now she has to go in front of a stranger and tell someone else that her daddy raped her. Mmmmm, nice compassion.

Allowing the abusive behavior to continue is disastrous, and that's what parental notification laws have the potential to do.
 
PAD linked to the Supreme Court decision.

Here is the text of Judge Alito's Circuit Court dissent (with a few footnotes omitted):

ALITO, Circuit Judge, concurring in part and dissenting in part.

I concur in the court's judgment except insofar as it holds that 18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 3209 (Supp.1991) (spousal notice) is unconstitutional. I also join all of the court's opinion except for the portions concerning Section 3209 and those interpreting Justice O'Connor's opinion in Hodgson v. Minnesota, 497 U.S. 417, 110 S.Ct. 2926, 2949-51, 111 L.Ed.2d 344 (1990), to mean that the two-parent notification requirement without judicial bypass imposed an "undue burden" and was thus required to satisfy strict scrutiny.

*720 I.
As the court suggests, the crux of this case concerns the identification of the constitutional standard that the lower courts must now apply in cases involving laws regulating abortion. For the reasons carefully explained in the court's opinion, I agree that Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, 492 U.S. 490, 109 S.Ct. 3040, 106 L.Ed.2d 410 (1989), and Hodgson changed the law that we are bound to apply and that the test set out in Justice O'Connor's opinions now represents the governing legal standard.
My disagreement with the majority regarding a single provision of the Pennsylvania Abortion Control Act, 18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 3201 et seq. (1983 & Supp.1991), results from disagreement about the portion of Justice O'Connor's two-part test that must be applied to this provision. Under that test, as the majority explains, a law that imposes an "undue burden" must serve a "compelling" state interest. By contrast, a law that does not impose an "undue burden" must simply be "rationally" or "reasonably" related to a "legitimate" state interest. The majority holds that Section 3209 constitutes an undue burden. The majority therefore applies the first prong of the two-part test and strikes down Section 3209 on the ground that it does not serve a "compelling" interest. I do not believe that Section 3209 has been shown to impose an undue burden as that term is used in the relevant Supreme Court opinions; I therefore apply the second prong of the two-part test; and I conclude that Section 3209 is constitutional because it is "rationally related" to a "legitimate" state interest.
Although the majority and I apply different prongs of this two-part test, I see no indication that we disagree concerning the conclusion produced when either prong is applied to Section 3209. If the majority is correct that Section 3209 must satisfy heightened scrutiny, I agree that its constitutionality is doubtful. Similarly, I do not interpret the majority opinion to mean that Section 3209 cannot satisfy the rational relationship test. Indeed, the majority acknowledges that Section 3209 serves a "legitimate" interest. See majority opin. at 715, 716. Thus, my major disagreement with the majority concerns the question whether Section 3209 imposes an "undue burden," and I will therefore turn to that question.

II.
A. Justice O'Connor has explained the meaning of the term "undue burden" in several abortion opinions. In Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), she wrote that "an 'undue burden' has been found for the most part in situations involving absolute obstacles or severe limitations on the abortion decision." She noted that laws held unconstitutional in prior cases involved statutes that "criminalized all abortions except those necessary to save the life of the mother," inhibited " 'the vast majority of abortions after the first 12 weeks,' " or gave the parents of a pregnant minor an absolute veto power over the abortion decision. Id. (emphasis in original; citations omitted). She suggested that an "undue burden" would not be created by "a state regulation [that] may 'inhibit' abortions to some degree." Id. She also suggested that there is no undue burden unless a measure has the effect of "substantially limiting access." Id. at 463, 103 S.Ct. at 2509, quoting Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678, 688, 97 S.Ct. 2010, 2017, 52 L.Ed.2d 675 (1977) (emphasis added in Justice O'Connor's opinion).
Justice O'Connor reiterated the same analysis in Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 476 U.S. 747, 106 S.Ct. 2169 (1986). She wrote (id. at 828, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting)):
An undue burden would generally be found "in situations involving absolute obstacles or severe limitations on the abortion decision," not wherever a state regulation "may 'inhibit' abortions to some degree."
*721 She also criticized the majority for taking an approach under which "the mere possibility that some women will be less likely to choose to have an abortion by virtue of the presence of a particular state regulation suffices to invalidate it." Id. 476 U.S. at 829, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (emphasis added).
Justice O'Connor's application of the undue burden test in several cases further illustrates the meaning of this test. In Hodgson, 110 S.Ct. at 2950-51, Justice O'Connor found that no undue burden was imposed by a law requiring notice to both parents or judicial authorization before a minor could obtain an abortion. Justice O'Connor reached this conclusion despite statistics adduced by Justice Marshall to show that mandatory parental notice may inhibit a significant percentage of minors from obtaining abortions (id. at 2953-54) (Marshall, J., dissenting) and despite the district court's finding, noted in Justice Marshall's dissent, that the judicial bypass option "so daunted" some minors that they felt compelled to carry to term (id. at 2959, quoting 648 F.Supp. at 763).
Justice O'Connor has also suggested on more than one occasion that no undue burden was created by the statute upheld in H.L. v. Matheson, 450 U.S. 398, 101 S.Ct. 1164, 67 L.Ed.2d 388 (1981), which required parental notice prior to any abortion on an unemancipated minor. Instead, she has stated that this statute merely inhibited abortions to "some degree." Thornburgh, 476 U.S. at 828, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting); Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). In dissent in Matheson, Justice Marshall argued that the statute would result in substantial interference with abortions sought by minors. He wrote (450 U.S. at 398, 101 S.Ct. at 1164) (Marshall, J., dissenting) that "the minor may confront physical or emotional abuse, withdrawal of financial support or actual obstruction of the abortion decision." These harms are almost identical to those that the majority in this case attributes to Section 3209. See majority opin. at 711-12. See also Planned Parenthood Association v. Ashcroft, 462 U.S. 476, 505, 103 S.Ct. 2517, 2532, 76 L.Ed.2d 733 (1983) (O'Connor concurring and dissenting) (statute requiring parental consent or judicial authorization "imposes no undue burden").
Finally, Justice O'Connor has concluded that regulations that simply increase the cost of abortions, including regulations that may double the cost, do not create an "undue burden." See Akron, 462 U.S. at 434-35, 103 S.Ct. at 2494-95 (maj. op.); at 466-67, 103 S.Ct. at 2511-12 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). Justice O'Connor reached this conclusion even though it seems clear that such increased costs may well deter some women.
Taken together, Justice O'Connor's opinions reveal that an undue burden does not exist unless a law (a) prohibits abortion or gives another person the authority to veto an abortion or (b) has the practical effect of imposing "severe limitations," rather than simply inhibiting abortions " 'to some degree' " or inhibiting "some women." Thornburgh, 476 U.S. at 828, 829, 106 S.Ct. at 2213, 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). Furthermore, Justice O'Connor's opinions disclose that the practical effect of a law will not amount to an undue burden unless the effect is greater than the burden imposed on minors seeking abortions in Hodgson or Matheson or the burden created by the regulations in Akron that appreciably increased costs. Since the laws at issue in those cases had inhibiting effects that almost certainly were substantial enough to dissuade some women from obtaining abortions, it appears clear that an undue burden may not be established simply by showing that a law will have a heavy impact on a few women but that instead a broader inhibiting effect must be shown.
In this case, the plaintiffs, who made a facial attack [FN1] on Section 3209, did not *722 prove that this provision would impose an undue burden. Section 3209 does not create an "absolute obstacle" or give a husband "veto power." Rather, this provision merely requires a married woman desiring an abortion to certify that she has notified her husband or to claim one of the statutory exceptions.



The plaintiffs also failed to carry their burden [FN2] of proving that Section 3209 if enforced would have the kind of broad practical impact needed to establish an "undue burden" under the opinions discussed above. Clearly the plaintiffs did not substantiate the impact of Section 3209 with the degree of analytical rigor that should be demanded before striking down a state statute. Cf. Akron, 462 U.S. at 463, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting) (citation omitted) (courts should exercise " 'deliberate restraint' " before finding an undue burden " 'in view of the respect that properly should be accorded legislative judgments' "); id. at 465, 103 S.Ct. at 2511.




At the outset, it is apparent that two factors imposed a low ceiling on any showing that the plaintiffs could have made. First, as the district court found, the "vast majority" of married women voluntarily inform their husbands before seeking an abortion. Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 744 F.Supp. 1323, 1360 (E.D.Pa.1990). Indeed, in the trial testimony on which the district court relied, the plaintiffs' witness stated that in her experience 95% of married women notify their husbands. App. at 701. Second, the overwhelming majority of abortions are sought by unmarried women. [FN3] Thus, it is immediately apparent that Section 3209 cannot affect more than about 5% of married women seeking abortions or an even smaller percentage of all women desiring abortions.





The plaintiffs failed to show even roughly how many of the women in this small group would actually be adversely affected by Section 3209. As previously noted, Section 3209 contains four significant exceptions. These exceptions apply if a woman certifies that she has not notified her husband because she believes [FN4] that (1) he is not the father of the child, (2) he cannot be found after diligent effort, (3) the pregnancy is the result of a spousal sexual assault that has been reported to the authorities, or (4) she has reason to believe that notification is likely to result in the infliction of bodily injury upon her. If Section 3209 were allowed to take effect, it seems safe to assume that some percentage of the married women seeking abortions without notifying their husbands would qualify for and invoke these exceptions. The record, however, is devoid of evidence showing how many women could or could not invoke an exception.



Of the potentially affected women who could not invoke an exception, it seems safe to assume that some percentage, despite an initial inclination not to tell their husbands, would notify their husbands without suffering*723 substantial ill effects. Again, however, the record lacks evidence showing how many women would or would not fall into this category. Thus, the plaintiffs did not even roughly substantiate how many women might be inhibited from obtaining an abortion or otherwise harmed by Section 3209. [FN5] At best, the record shows that Section 3209 would inhibit abortions " 'to some degree' " or that "some women [would] be less likely to choose to have an abortion by virtue of the presence" of Section 3209. Thornburgh, 476 U.S. at 828, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). [FN6] And even with respect to these women, the plaintiffs did not show that the impact of Section 3209 would be any greater or any different from the impact of the notice requirement upheld in Matheson. Consequently, the plaintiffs failed to prove that Section 3209 would impose an undue burden.




Proving that a woman violated the law due to a false statement concerning one of the exceptions would also be hard. As noted (see footnote 4, supra ), the Commonwealth would have to prove that the woman did not "believe [the statement] to be true" (18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 4904(b) (1983)). Consequently, if a woman certified that she did not notify her husband because he was not the father, the Commonwealth would have to prove that she subjectively believed that the husband was the
father. Or, if a woman certified that she did not notify her husband because she had reason to believe that this would lead to the infliction of bodily injury upon her, the Commonwealth would have to prove that the woman subjectively believed that she would not be harmed. It seems likely, therefore, that Section 3209, if allowed to take effect, would be widely evaded and infrequently enforced and would consequently be less likely to produce either the good or bad effects that the opposing parties claim.



FN6. The plaintiffs' proof may be separated into five categories. First, they offered testimony that a spousal notification requirement would sometimes delay an abortion or necessitate an extra trip to the abortion provider (see 744 F.Supp. at 1360). But as the majority properly concludes in rejecting identical objections to the 24-hour waiting period required by Section 3205(a) (see majority opin. at 706-07), these potential effects do not amount to an undue burden. See Akron, 462 U.S. at 472-74, 103 S.Ct. at 2515-16 (O'Connor, J., dissenting).


Second, the plaintiffs offered testimony that the exceptions in Section 3209 would not cover a case in which a woman did not want to notify her husband for fear that he would retaliate in some way other than the infliction of bodily injury upon her, such as by subjecting her to
psychological abuse or abusing their children (see 744 F.Supp. at 1360- 62). The plaintiffs, however, do not appear to have offered any evidence showing how many (or indeed that any actual women) would be affected by this asserted imperfection in the statute.


Third, the plaintiffs introduced general evidence about the problem of spouse abuse (see 744 F.Supp. at 1361). They offered widely varying statistics concerning the dimensions of the problem, as well as evidence that battering occurs in all socioeconomic groups and is sometimes fatal. This proof, while documenting the existence of a broad national problem, provides no basis for any estimate of what is relevant here--the impact of Section 3209.


Fourth, the plaintiffs offered evidence that "mere notification of pregnancy is frequently a flashpoint for battering" (see 744 F.Supp. at 1361). This proof indicates when violence is likely to occur in an abusive marriage but provides no basis for determining how many women would be adversely affected by Section 3209.


Finally, the plaintiffs offered the opinion of one of their witnesses that most battered women would be psychologically incapable of taking advantage of Section 3209's fourth exception, i.e., the exception for cases in which the woman has reason to fear that notification will lead to the
infliction of bodily harm upon her (see 744 F.Supp. at 1363). However, the plaintiffs failed to show how many of the women potentially affected by Section 3209 (married women seeking abortions without notifying their husbands) are victims of battering. Thus, the opinion offered by their expert, even if taken at face value, merely describes the likely behavior of most of the women in a group of unknown size. Clearly, then, this evidence does not show how many women would be inhibited or otherwise harmed by Section 3209. I cannot believe that a state statute may be held facially unconstitutional simply because one expert testifies that in her opinion the provision would harm a completely unknown number of women.


Needless to say, the plight of any women, no matter how few, who may suffer physical abuse or other harm as a result of *724 this provision is a matter of grave concern. It is apparent that the Pennsylvania legislature considered this problem and attempted to prevent Section 3209 from causing adverse effects by adopting the four exceptions noted above. Whether the legislature's approach represents sound public policy is not a question for us to decide. Our task here is simply to decide whether Section 3209 meets constitutional standards. The first step in this analysis is to determine whether Section 3209 has been shown to create an undue burden under Supreme Court precedent, and for the reasons just explained it seems clear that an undue burden has not been established.
B. This conclusion is not undermined (and may indeed be supported) by the portion of Justice O'Connor's opinion in Hodgson regarding the constitutionality of the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass. The majority in this case interprets Justice O'Connor's opinion to mean that this requirement imposed an undue burden and did not serve a "compelling" interest. Majority opin. at 696. I interpret Justice O'Connor's opinion differently. I do not read her opinion to mean that the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass constituted an undue burden. Rather, I interpret her opinion to mean that this requirement was unconstitutional because it was not reasonably related to a legitimate state interest. Thus, I do not believe that her opinion (or the Court's holding) supports the majority's conclusion in the present case that the spousal notification requirement in Section 3209 imposes an undue burden.
In Hodgson, Justice Stevens wrote the lead opinion discussing the unconstitutionality of the two-parent notification requirement without judicial bypass, and Justice O'Connor joined most of Justice Stevens' opinion (see 110 S.Ct. at 2949 (O'Connor, J., concurring). Thus, in interpreting Justice O'Connor's position, it is helpful to begin with the relevant portions of Justice Stevens' opinion.
Two portions of Justice Stevens' opinion, Parts III and VII, are most important for present purposes. In Part III, Justice Stevens discussed the applicable constitutional standard. Nowhere in this portion of his opinion (or indeed in any portion of his opinion) did Justice Stevens make reference to "strict," "exacting," or "heightened" scrutiny or any of the terminology associated with that level of review. Instead, he concluded that the statute failed to satisfy even the least demanding standard of review. He wrote (110 S.Ct. at 2937): "Under any analysis, the ... statute cannot be sustained if the obstacles it imposes are not reasonably related to legitimate state interests."
In Part VII of his opinion, Justice Stevens explained (id. at 2945) why the two-parent notice requirement did not "reasonably further any legitimate state interest." Thus it seems clear that Justice Stevens' opinion concluded that the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass was unconstitutional because it failed some variant of the rational relationship test.
In my view, Justice O'Connor's opinion in Hodgson did not subject this requirement to a more exacting level of scrutiny. Although Justice O'Connor did not join Part III of Justice Stevens' opinion (in which he discussed the general constitutional standard that he applied), Justice O'Connor wrote as follows (110 S.Ct. at 2949-50 (emphasis added)):
It has been my understanding in this area that "f the particular regulation does not 'unduly burde[n]' the fundamental right, ... then our evaluation of that regulation is limited to our determination that the regulation rationally relates to a legitimate state purpose." .... It is with that understanding that I agree with Justice Stevens' statement "that the statute cannot be sustained if the obstacles it imposes are not reasonably related to legitimate state interests."
I interpret this to mean that Justice O'Connor agreed with Justice Stevens that the challenged statute should be judged under the rational relationship test. I do not think that she would have expressed general agreement with Justice Stevens' statement of the governing legal standard if she believed that the statute imposed an *725 undue burden and was thus required to satisfy an entirely different legal standard. I also do not think that she would have concluded that the statute created an undue burden without explaining the basis for that conclusion. Moreover, Justice O'Connor joined Part VII of Justice Stevens' opinion, in which, as previously noted, Justice Stevens concluded that the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass was not "reasonably" related to any "legitimate interest." I do not think that Justice O'Connor would have joined this portion of Justice Stevens' opinion if her position regarding the constitutionality of the provision was based on a fundamentally different analysis. Thus, I conclude that Justice O'Connor found the two-parent notice statute unconstitutional under the rational relationship test. This must mean either (a) that she did not believe that this requirement constituted an undue burden or (b) that she did not find it necessary to reach that question because she believed that the requirement could not even pass the rational relationship test. In either event, her position in no way undermines my conclusion that Section 3209 has not been shown to create an undue burden. [FN7]


FN7. In the portion of her opinion concluding that the two-parent notification requirement with judicial bypass was constitutional, Justice O'Connor wrote (110 S.Ct. at 2950 (emphasis added)): "In a series of cases, this Court has explicitly approved judicial bypass as a means of tailoring a parental consent provision so as to avoid unduly burdening the minor's limited right to obtain an abortion." I interpret this statement to mean that a judicial bypass option prevents a consent requirement (which would otherwise amount to an absolute veto) from creating an undue burden. This statement is therefore fully consistent with my view that Justice O'Connor did not find that an undue burden was created by the two-parent
notice requirement without judicial bypass.



III.
Since Section 3209 has not been proven to impose an undue burden, it must serve a "legitimate" (but not necessarily a "compelling") state interest. The majority acknowledges that this provision serves a "legitimate" interest, namely, the state's interest in furthering the husband's interest in the fetus. See majority opin. at 715, 716. I agree with this conclusion, and I do not think that this point requires extended discussion.
The Supreme Court has held that a man has a fundamental interest in preserving his ability to father a child. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541, 62 S.Ct. 1110, 1113, 86 L.Ed. 1655 (1942). The Court's opinions also seem to establish that a husband who is willing to participate in raising a child has a fundamental interest in the child's welfare. Michael H. v. Gerald D., 491 U.S. 110, 123, 109 S.Ct. 2333, 2342, 105 L.Ed.2d 91 (1989); Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U.S. 246, 98 S.Ct. 549, 54 L.Ed.2d 511 (1978); Caban v. Mohammed, 441 U.S. 380, 99 S.Ct. 1760, 60 L.Ed.2d 297 (1969); Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U.S. 645, 92 S.Ct. 1208, 31 L.Ed.2d 551 (1972). It follows that a husband has a "legitimate" interest in the welfare of a fetus he has conceived with his wife.
To be sure, the Supreme Court held in Planned Parenthood of Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52, 67-72, 96 S.Ct. 2831, 2840-43, 49 L.Ed.2d 788 (1976), that a potential father may not be given the legal authority to veto an abortion, and thus the Court apparently held that the potential father's interest was not "compelling." But the Court did not question the legitimacy of this interest. On the contrary, the Court wrote (id. at 69, 96 S.Ct. at 2841 (emphasis added)): "We are not unaware of the deep and proper concern and interest that a devoted and protective husband has in his wife's pregnancy and in the growth and development of the fetus she is carrying." See also id. at 93, 96 S.Ct. at 2852 (White, J., dissenting) ("A father's interest in having a child--perhaps his only child--may be unmatched by any other interest in his life"). Since a "deep and proper ... interest" appears indistinguishable from a "legitimate" interest, it seems clear that a husband has a "legitimate" interest in the fate of the fetus.
This interest may be legitimately furthered by state legislation. "tatutory regulation of domestic relations [is] an area *726 that has long been regarded as a virtually exclusive province of the States." Sosna v. Iowa, 419 U.S. 393, 404, 95 S.Ct. 553, 560, 42 L.Ed.2d 532 (1975). See also Moore v. East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 499, 97 S.Ct. 1932, 1935, 52 L.Ed.2d 531 (1977); Scheinberg v. Smith, 659 F.2d 476, 483-94 (5th Cir.1981). Accordingly, Pennsylvania has a legitimate interest in furthering the husband's interest in the fate of the fetus, as the majority in this case acknowledges.

IV.
The remaining question is whether Section 3209 is "rationally" or "reasonably" related to this interest. Under the rational relationship test, which developed in equal protection cases, "legislation carries with it a presumption of rationality that can only be overcome by a clear showing of arbitrariness and irrationality." Hodel v. Indiana, 452 U.S. 314, 331-32, 101 S.Ct. 2376, 2386-87, 69 L.Ed.2d 40 (1981). This test does not permit the invalidation of legislation simply because it is "deemed unwise or unartfully drawn." U.S. Railroad Retirement Board v. Fritz, 449 U.S. 166, 175, 101 S.Ct. 453, 459, 66 L.Ed.2d 368 (1981). Legislation does not violate this test simply because it produces some adverse effects. Id.; Lindsley v. Natural Carbonic Gas Co., 220 U.S. 61, 78, 31 S.Ct. 337, 340, 55 L.Ed. 369 (1911). As the Court wrote in Dandridge v. Williams, 397 U.S. 471, 485-86, 90 S.Ct. 1153, 1161-62, 25 L.Ed.2d 491 (1970):
"The problems of government are practical ones and may justify, if they do not require, rough accommodations--illogical, it may be, and unscientific." Metropolis Theatre Co. v. City of Chicago, 228 U.S. 61, 68- 70 [33 S.Ct. 441, 443, 57 L.Ed. 730 (1913) ]....
... [The rational-basis standard] is true to the principle that the Fourteenth Amendment gives the federal courts no power to impose upon the States their views of what constitutes wise economic or social policy.
See also Dallas v. Stanglin, 490 U.S. 19, 25-27, 109 S.Ct. 1591, 1595-96, 104 L.Ed.2d 18 (1989); Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc., 473 U.S. 432, 439-40, 105 S.Ct. 3249, 3253-54, 87 L.Ed.2d 313 (1985). Rather, "those challenging the legislative judgment must convince the Court that the legislative facts on which the classification is apparently based could not reasonably be conceived to be true by the governmental decisionmaker." Vance v. Bradley, 440 U.S. 93, 111, 99 S.Ct. 939, 949, 59 L.Ed.2d 171 (1979). See also Hancock Industries v. Schaeffer, 811 F.2d 225, 238 (3d Cir.1987).
Even assuming that the rational relationship test is more demanding in the present context than in most equal protection cases, that test is satisfied here. The Pennsylvania legislature could have rationally believed that some married women are initially inclined to obtain an abortion without their husbands' knowledge because of perceived problems--such as economic constraints, future plans, or the husbands' previously expressed opposition-- that may be obviated by discussion prior to the abortion. In addition, the legislature could have reasonably concluded that Section 3209 would lead to such discussion and thereby properly further a husband's interests in the fetus in a sufficient percentage of the affected cases to justify enactment of this measure. Although the plaintiffs and supporting amici argue that Section 3209 will do little if any good and will produce appreciable adverse effects, the Pennsylvania legislature presumably decided that the law on balance would be beneficial. We have no authority to overrule that legislative judgment even if we deem it "unwise" or worse. U.S. Railroad Retirement Board v. Fritz, 449 U.S. at 175, 101 S.Ct. at 459. "We should not forget that 'legislatures are ultimate guardians of the liberty and welfare of the people in quite as great a degree as the courts.' " Akron v. Akron Center For Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 465, 103 S.Ct. at 2511 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Missouri, K. & T.R. Co. v. May, 194 U.S. 267, 270, 24 S.Ct. 638, 639, 48 L.Ed. 971 (1904). Clearly, the plaintiffs have not shown that "the legislative facts on which [the statute] is apparently based could not reasonably be conceived to be true by the governmental decisionmaker." *727 Vance v. Bradley, 440 U.S. at 111, 99 S.Ct. at 949. Thus, Section 3209 is rationally related to a legitimate state interest and may not be invalidated under the Supreme Court's abortion precedents. [FN8]
 
[quote name='yeah-yeah']And you think this will happen in secret? You think the abusive parent won't find out? It's not enough that the child in this case has been abused - now she has to go in front of a stranger and tell someone else that her daddy raped her. Mmmmm, nice compassion.

Allowing the abusive behavior to continue is disastrous, and that's what parental notification laws have the potential to do.[/QUOTE]

In that instance the child would be removed from the home by court order. No ifs ands or buts about it.

That is compassion. It gets them out of the environment that got her pregnant!

Your logic = Lacking
 
Reasons against spousal notification:

1. The kid ain't his.
2. When he finds out that she had an abortion and didn't tell him, he's going to fucking kill her, literally.
3. It's step one in giving him power to force her to carry the baby to full term. I dare you carry a bowling ball you never wanted in your stomach for 9 months and come back and support it.

Reasons against parental notification:

1. History shows when parents find out their daughter is pregnant many of them don't hug and support them, but kick them out.
2. She's 'Daddy's Girl.'
3. Welcome home, 'Shotgun wedding' we missed you!
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']In that instance the child would be removed from the home by court order. No ifs ands or buts about it.[/quote]

Yeah, it's that simple and happens that easily. Hey what's your address? I, too, would like to live in fairy-tale land.
 
Let's remember that what Judge Alito was addressing in the Casey case was not whether spousal notification was a good policy, but rather whether it was constitutionally permissible for the PA Legislature to enact such a provision. I think sometimes this critical point gets lost. I may not support the provision, but I may believe it is constitutional for the people to enact such a law.
 
[quote name='sgs89']Let's remember that what Judge Alito was addressing in the Casey case was not whether spousal notification was a good policy, but rather whether it was constitutionally permissible for the PA Legislature to enact such a provision. I think sometimes this critical point gets lost. I may not support the provision, but I may believe it is constitutional for the people to enact such a law.[/QUOTE]


Which exactly highlights the fallacy of the "I'll just interpret the constitution" answers in the nomination process. Personal opinions affect how you judge the Constitution.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Which exactly highlights the fallacy of the "I'll just interpret the constitution" answers in the nomination process. Personal opinions affect how you judge the Constitution.[/QUOTE]

To a degree, yes. After all, any human interpretation is necessarily impacted by the particular make-up of the interpreter. It is unavoidable.

I think the key is for judges, to the very best of their ability, to minimize their own personal views. Some do a better job than others. Indeed, some are relatively unashamed about engaging in results-oriented jurisprudence. The best judges are those that really take to heart the limited role of the judiciary carved out by our constitutional system.
 
[quote name='sgs89']To a degree, yes. After all, any human interpretation is necessarily impacted by the particular make-up of the interpreter. It is unavoidable.

I think the key is for judges, to the very best of their ability, to minimize their own personal views. Some do a better job than others. Indeed, some are relatively unashamed about engaging in results-oriented jurisprudence. The best judges are those that really take to heart the limited role of the judiciary carved out by our constitutional system.[/QUOTE]

Which is why, I would imagine, despite a handful of potentially liberal-scaring arguments, I'll withold judgment until a track record of reasonable or unreasonable decisions is shown. He has the qualifications, but if he's a Bork-like character, I'll be skeptical.

I'm torn on the PP v Casey debate on many sides, and I don't think that his dissent is yet enough for my liberal kin to scream bloody murder. I think it is a complex issue, and I don't think that it's easy (or even reasonable) to legislatively permit or deny women the opportunity to notify their spouse (although I'm more lenient toward parental notification measures). At any rate, none of that has much to do with the constitutional applicability of the ruling. So far, PP v Casey, and anybody holding judgment on Alito because of it, is making much ado about nothing.

If he's deserving of the "Scalito" moniker, then that dissenting opinion will look like a bedtime story to liberals in the coming weeks.

Bush seems to be making a push to get him confirmed before 2006. Is that reasonable?
 
I don't think Alito will be confirmed this calendar year. I think the process will be relatively bloody -- certainly more so than John Roberts' process. First, he is replacing Sandra Day O'Connor -- a "moderate" -- while Roberts replaced WHR, a conservative. Second, he is known more as a hard-line conservative than Roberts was.

All that being said, I think he will ultimately win confirmation in January of 2006.
 
Politically I think there's a 50/50 chance he's confirmed this year. Not on an up or down vote but procedurally. Without knowing the specifics of the Congressional schedule I know they break for Thanksgiving and Christmas but how many days are they in session in between? If you have 5 legislative weeks between now and January 1 I don't think there will be enough time.

The "he's replacing O'Connor" statement is completely without merit intellectually. Politically it's a different matter. There's nothing that ensures a consistent political judicial philosphical makeup in the Constitution. There's no need for previous balance to be honored or adhered to. If that was the case we might as well pull the plug on all elections right now. After all, it interferes with consistency.

The "he's replacing O'Connor" mantra and talking point will be bandied about by the losers in political life; Democrats. I would love to see how they'd react to those talking points with a Democratic controlled Senate and White House and Scalia or Thomas resign. Think they'd still care about consistency of the SCOTUS? Oh hell no.

As I've said before and will say again. Elections have consequences.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Wow, startling comeback. Your razor like wit and well developed accumen certainly delivered a knockout logical blow.[/QUOTE]

My point is that these situations are not always cut-and-dried as you seem to think they are.

In that instance the child would be removed from the home by court order. No ifs ands or buts about it.

So you're saying that in ALL cases where there a parent is sexually abusing a child that the child is ALWAYS removed from the household? And that it happens immediately so no further abuse takes place?

Why are you for parental notification? Are you for parental notification, or really just against abortion and will use whatever argument necessary to argue against abortion?
 
If parents are needed to sign off of field trips, tattoos, piercings why shouldn't they be needed to consent to an invasive medical procedure? If something goes terribly wrong and the child is injured you just know CYS or some county/state agency would be all over those parents for "neglect"

Reading comprehension, do you have any mother fucker?
 
PAD --

I wasn't suggesting that the "Alito replaces O'Connor" argument should have any merit, only that it will necessarily impact the confirmation process. I agree with you that it shouldn't matter.
 
My problem with parental notification is that having children effects a persons entire life. A 15 or 16 year old, who does not want a child, may be forced to raise one if their parent does not want them to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption. It also may force the child out of their current school, negatively effecting their overal education goals (such as the college they could attend), since many high schools do not allow pregnant students.

My problem with spousal notification is that is simply no legal business of her husband, whatsoever, what a wife does with her body. She's an adult and should be able to act as one. Having to tell her husband would, in some cases, cause her to carry the child even though she does not want to, even if it is still technically her choice. Even so, she should not have to involve him if she doesn't want to.

As for "elections have consequences", there's a reason the party that wins the election, overal, doesn't have absolute control. The other party stands in opposition to them and wields power based on their size.
 
Assuming Alito is confirmed, don't we then have a more balanced court?

Conservatives: Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Alito
Liberals: Ginsburg, Souter, Breyer, Stevens
Moderate: Kennedy

It doesn't get anymore balanced than that.
 
You fail to understand that spousal notification didn't give the husband superceding rights over the will of his wife. It merely required that he be made aware that such an action took place and be relayed to him. The law passed a Democratic Pennsylvania House and Senate and was signed into sate law by Robert Casey (D) in 1982.

Of course sex has consequences. Even if you're a teenager. Life is not consequence free. If you choose to cut school one day, no harm no foul. You choose to cut school 50 days a year you get held back, expelled or don't graduate and those 50 days haunt you the rest of your life. You decide to have sex at a young age unprepared for the potential for life changing consequences you should have to face the consequences of your action. Whether or not it's having to bring a baby to term and putting it up for adoption or raising it actions have consequences.

When I stop and think of all the stuff I got away with without consequence between 15 and 25 it chills my blood when I stop and think about what could have happened. Whether it was sex at a young age, underage drinking, DWI, unprotected sex etc. I am so far on the good end of the consequence free bell curve it's not even funny. However had I been caught in a bad situation as a result of my actions I would have owned up to them and dealt with them.
 
altiowned.jpg
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You fail to understand that spousal notification didn't give the husband superceding rights over the will of his wife. It merely required that he be made aware that such an action took place and be relayed to him. The law passed a Democratic Pennsylvania House and Senate and was signed into sate law by Robert Casey (D) in 1982.[/quote]

It's naive to think that no husband is going to influence (let alone force) his wife into carrying a child she does not want. Not every husband is going to just say "It's your body, you can do as you want". Even though it's not a particularly old law, it looks like a relic from the past where husbands dominated their wives.

Of course sex has consequences. Even if you're a teenager. Life is not consequence free. If you choose to cut school one day, no harm no foul. You choose to cut school 50 days a year you get held back, expelled or don't graduate and those 50 days haunt you the rest of your life. You decide to have sex at a young age unprepared for the potential for life changing consequences you should have to face the consequences of your action. Whether or not it's having to bring a baby to term and putting it up for adoption or raising it actions have consequences.

What good does it do, for the child or for the mother, to force someone to raise a baby they do not want? What benefit is there other than satisfying your strange sense of justice? Obviously it's not good for the mother to have her entire life dictated to her against her will (what happens when the mother wants an abortion but the parents won't allow it), and obviously it's not good for the baby to be born into an environment that does not want it. A baby should not be a punishment, but yet some want to make it one.

However had I been caught in a bad situation as a result of my actions I would have owned up to them and dealt with them.

Like all those "decent" men who married someone they didn't love because they got them pregnant. I had one of them in my family. He beat her up repeatedly and pulled a gun on her, 2 kids later they got divorced. His family kept telling him getting married was the right thing to do since he got her pregnant, but he said multiple times he didn't want to get married and that he didn't love her.

Many times making someone do "the right thing" is the worst you can do.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']However had I been caught in a bad situation as a result of my actions I would have owned up to them and dealt with them.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, just like here on the boards when you get caught posting incorrect information, you always apologize and stay to take your lumps. You NEVER simply disappear from that thread and then come back to post new incorrect information in another thread. Your sense of responsibility is just breathtaking, second only to Bush's.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Of course sex has consequences. Even if you're a teenager. Life is not consequence free. If you choose to cut school one day, no harm no foul. You choose to cut school 50 days a year you get held back, expelled or don't graduate and those 50 days haunt you the rest of your life. You decide to have sex at a young age unprepared for the potential for life changing consequences you should have to face the consequences of your action. Whether or not it's having to bring a baby to term and putting it up for adoption or raising it actions have consequences.

When I stop and think of all the stuff I got away with without consequence between 15 and 25 it chills my blood when I stop and think about what could have happened. Whether it was sex at a young age, underage drinking, DWI, unprotected sex etc. I am so far on the good end of the consequence free bell curve it's not even funny. However had I been caught in a bad situation as a result of my actions I would have owned up to them and dealt with them.[/QUOTE]

Onward christian soldier, you had sex - gave in to lust - you and your evil seed must be PUNISHED. Give me a break, you're the kind of guy who reads the scarlet letter and gets a hardon every time that Hestor Prynne gets screwed over.

As for underage drinking, assuming it's not to excess and you're not amish, what's the big freaking deal.

As for your truly evil deeds, I believe in karma, because for every evil deed that you have gotten away with, it has filled you with that much more hate and contempt for your fellow man.
 
It's amazing none of you will speak up and insist parents not be notified for piercings or tattoos but will completely support a minor making decisions for herself in regards to a medical procedure that is invasive, bloody and can result in infection, sterilization and other life altering consequences physical and mental in nature.

Sometimes I wonder the logic it takes to be one of you. The connections just never come to me.

[quote name='Quackzilla']
condomKS10544.jpg
[/QUOTE]

The hottest chick you could ever hope to score with approaches you and says you can bang her silly as long and hard as you wish for an entire weekend. However, she informs you she has AIDS and herpes. Will you trust a condom to save your life and keep you uninfected?

[quote name='Drocket']Yeah, just like here on the boards when you get caught posting incorrect information, you always apologize and stay to take your lumps. You NEVER simply disappear from that thread and then come back to post new incorrect information in another thread. Your sense of responsibility is just breathtaking, second only to Bush's.[/QUOTE]

Just what, pray tell, are the consequences in real life of a message board posting? Please, tell me how responsibility and consequences applies to anything any of us write here.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']It's amazing none of you will speak up and insist parents not be notified for piercings or tattoos but will completely support a minor making decisions for herself in regards to a medical procedure that is invasive, bloody and can result in infection, sterilization and other life altering consequences physical and mental in nature.

Sometimes I wonder the logic it takes to be one of you. The connections just never come to me.[/QUOTE]

So, unless the number of people accidentally tattooed and/or pierced has increased in recent years, I don't see quite how it's comparable to abortion.

This is, of course, completely ignoring the fact that your exceptional simplicity in thinking that either of the two are remotely comparable to abortions is downright head-spinning. The ramifications for things that occur as the result of flagrantly different circumstances are not comparable in the slightest, no matter how much your cognitive connection of the possible hygenic problems consequent may make you think so.
 
I'm not comparing the consequences of the two. I'm making an analogy that if you need parental notification and permission for things as stupid as a field trip, tattoos or piercings how can an abortion be viewed as any less serious or consequential as getting on a school bus and going to the zoo? It's a far more serious matter than any of the above yet abortion advocates insist it's not the concern of the parents. Well, if it isn't, why are the other things?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I'm not comparing the consequences of the two. I'm making an analogy that if you need parental notification and permission for things as stupid as a field trip, tattoos or piercings how can an abortion be viewed as any less serious or consequential as getting on a school bus and going to the zoo? It's a far more serious matter than any of the above yet abortion advocates insist it's not the concern of the parents. Well, if it isn't, why are the other things?[/QUOTE]

What happens when the father is the one who got the daughter pregnant in the first place?

Who is going to be forced to raise the child/put the child up for adoption if the girl has it - the girl or the parents?

As long as abortion is viewed by the courts as a legal medical procedure, how can the parents decide to block it? Should christian scientist parents be allowed to block their kids from receiving any medical procedures, at the risk of death or permanent injury, because the parents believe that their god will come down and cure their kids?

Where does the girl's rights start, and the parent's rights stop?

Notification... maybe. Permission - the heck with that.
 
It's simply due to the potential conflict that parental involvement could have. Telling a child that they cannot have a tattoo or piercing is inconsequential, and does not remarkably alter a person's life permanently (that is, unless you're preventing them from getting "fuck Disco" tattooe'd on their head, for a true hypothetical).

On the other hand, the consequences of parental notification for minor abortions are far greater and more permanent than any body modification; even you must admit that. As "parental notification" parallels "parental involvement," many children will be forced to bear their children, suffer social and psychological stigma, and have other more permanent associated issues (not the least of which would be the perpetuation of those stereotypical "welfare queens" that you so despise).

I think it's unfair to say it's "not a concern of the parents." That suggests that liberals think that a parent should stay entirely out of the sexual identity of their children, and that's simply not true. Your argument also incorrectly labels liberals' views of abortion as merely some trivial action, something people stop by the clinic to have done in between the coffee shoppe and yoga. Abortion is a serious matter; having them affects damn near everyone a person knows, socially. While I think it's one thing for a woman to have an abortion without notifying the father/husband (i.e., the fact that it's a tricky issue, that being a woman has the solitary choice to have an abortion, but if she has the child, the responsibility becomes mutual), and I'm very contingent on my feelings there, to get anyone outside of those responsible for causing the pregnancy involved or notified is a gross violation of privacy. *Even* for your child; speaking realistically, PAD, do you think, if you consider yourself a good parent (or a hypothetically good one) that (1) you could probably teach your daughter to behave in a way such that reduces her chances of becoming pregnant or (2) be a good enough parent such that you wouldn't be oblivious to this if it were to happen?

At any rate, that's my case, in shambles; I've got a major test Friday, so I'll be far more scatterbrained than usual until then.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']

Sometimes I wonder the logic it takes to be one of you. The connections just never come to me.
[/QUOTE]

Ditto.

Btw I bet you're the same type of Conservative who bitches about condom's being distributed in schools but wants to cut Welfare too. You want to have your cake and eat it too.
Oh and NOWHERE in what you say about responsibility do I see any inference that maybe she should choose adoption for the baby. You are genuinely an ass and a pig when it comes to women and this is coming from a Mysogynistic Feminist. I feel pity for any woman who was ever your g/f.
"Honey I was RAPED! Tough shit, it wasn't your choice but you're gonna have that baby anyway!".
edit: Btw overall I would prefer in most circumstances ESPECIALLY a woman using Abortion as Birth Control that she carries it to term however since it's HER body, not mine, then it's her choice and I'll respect that. Unfortunately you seem to want to force YOUR choice on her.
Oh yeah and it's really absurd we're even arguing this, that Republican Politicians even made an issue out of what is so clearly a woman's choice.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Just what, pray tell, are the consequences in real life of a message board posting? Please, tell me how responsibility and consequences applies to anything any of us write here.[/QUOTE]

Responsibility is responsibility. If you decide to pick and choose which responsibilities you'll own up to based on the consequences, then you're not a responsible person, period.

In terms of the consequences of your regular and repeated posting of incorrect information, followed by refusal to follow up and take responsibility for having posted said incorrect information - well, I think its pretty clear: you're simply not taken very seriously around here. Anything you post is automatically taken with a grain of salt because of your poor track record with regards for accuracy. If you took more responsibility in making sure that you only post accurate information, you'd most likely get a good deal more respect from many of the regular posters. As it stands, you're generally regarded as one step up from an outright troll.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']It's amazing none of you will speak up and insist parents not be notified for piercings or tattoos but will completely support a minor making decisions for herself in regards to a medical procedure that is invasive, bloody and can result in infection, sterilization and other life altering consequences physical and mental in nature.

Sometimes I wonder the logic it takes to be one of you. The connections just never come to me.
[/quote]

Call me when you have to parent a nose ring.

The hottest chick you could ever hope to score with approaches you and says you can bang her silly as long and hard as you wish for an entire weekend. However, she informs you she has AIDS and herpes. Will you trust a condom to save your life and keep you uninfected?

In reality you usually don't know who has std's and who doesn't. Therefore, it offers a lot more protection than wearing nothing.
 
[quote name='Drocket']Responsibility is responsibility. If you decide to pick and choose which responsibilities you'll own up to based on the consequences, then you're not a responsible person, period.

In terms of the consequences of your regular and repeated posting of incorrect information, followed by refusal to follow up and take responsibility for having posted said incorrect information - well, I think its pretty clear: you're simply not taken very seriously around here. Anything you post is automatically taken with a grain of salt because of your poor track record with regards for accuracy. If you took more responsibility in making sure that you only post accurate information, you'd most likely get a good deal more respect from many of the regular posters. As it stands, you're generally regarded as one step up from an outright troll.[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, the ever popular I hate what you think, I hate what you believe, I hate who you vote for, you're always wrong, you're a troll line.

Super.

The overwhelming majority, 90%+, of what I post here are articles from MSM publications. So now you're, in reality, questioning the credibility of the media. You don't like what they say? Oh it's PAD's fault! He's a troll! He posts inaccurate information! Well, if I do, I'm not the source of it. If you don't like it you have to look in the mirror and wonder just how objectively you consume and deceipher news and how it effects the country and the world.

Do you honestly think I post here for respect? Do you think I value any of your opinions? Nope.

More than anything this forum is a source of amusement for me. Every time you're baited into lock step predictable responses you never fail to let me down. Collectively the liberal, not progressive or any other more "electable" monicker, mindset of this board is as surprising to me as the rising of the morning sun.

There are two posters here worth their salt mykeyvermin and MrBadExample. They're the only two with a shred of reason and can at least discuss things intellectually as opposed to talking point partisan politics. The rest of you are pure unadulterated hacks. Yourself included Drocket.

The broad generalizations here, especially about me telling a GF she was raped and has to have the baby, are so laughably absurd as to not even deserve a proper response.

Why? Because I'm pro-choice.

However like anything else in life I believe in education, awareness and oversight (In the case of minors.) when it comes to the matter. I believe women should be told that there are groups that will provide free housing, medical care and provide an adoptive family. I believe that women should be counseled about the development of what is inside of them. That at week 11 vital organs are in place and by week 12 there are reflexes to the brain. That is not the sign of just some group of cells that should arbitarily be thrown aside.

However I know it's much easier for all of you to throw slings and arrows while collectively dismissing any viewpoint that doesn't square with yours. The great thing about this, to me, is that my side is winning the debates. My side is advancing a point of view. All that remains for the **AHEM** "left" is to defend their agenda of abortion on demand, whenever, where ever and for whom ever. Forget the fact that 40 million of them have taken place in 32 years. That number just isn't a telling fact!

What is it we're told? Moderation? We must compromise, come together and unite? Well apparently that only applies if everyone compromises, comes together and unites under the viewpoints of the far left extremeists that dominate this board and the mainstream Democratic party.

Keep generalizing and dismissing. It only makes me happier that this debate is so won that you're reduced to personal attacks, ad hominem statements and theorhetical what ifs.
 
Returning to topic...

The Democrats are floating the filibuster trial balloon. At the end of the day, I would be VERY surprised if they took that route. It has become clear that, barring some unforeseen disclosure about Judge Alito's past, the Republicans (i.e., the Gang of 14) would not stand for a filibuster in this situation. The result? Nuclear option.

I think either way, we will have Justice Alito in early 2006.
 
It's looking like Alito's nomination was a very shrewd political move for the White House. The Republicans are rallying behind Alito, and Dems are attacking him. I'm not saying his record is above reproach. He should be vigorously questioned just like any other nominee, but I wish they would wait until the confirmation hearings. Last week was one of the worst for Bush politically with Miers' withdrawal, Libby indicted (maybe more to come) and more fumbled hurricane relief. Dems should be harping on these issues and the larger one of why was Libby so obsessed with discrediting Joe Wilson (because he was undermining their weak justification for a war). Focusing on Alito now is just what the White House wants. Alito makes them look good. He's no John Roberts yet, but he's far from a Harriet Miers.

Maybe there is something in Alito's record that will discredit him enough to not be approved and maybe not. I just wish the Dems were going after all the low-hanging fruit that Dubya has provided right now.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Keep generalizing and dismissing. It only makes me happier that this debate is so won that you're reduced to personal attacks, ad hominem statements and theorhetical what ifs.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Ah yes, the ever popular I hate what you think, I hate what you believe, I hate who you vote for, you're always wrong, you're a troll line.

Super.

The overwhelming majority, 90%+, of what I post here are articles from MSM publications. So now you're, in reality, questioning the credibility of the media. You don't like what they say? Oh it's PAD's fault! He's a troll! He posts inaccurate information! Well, if I do, I'm not the source of it. If you don't like it you have to look in the mirror and wonder just how objectively you consume and deceipher news and how it effects the country and the world. [/QUOTE]

That's not really the problem. The problem is often your misinterpretation of what you post and the argument that stems from that.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you honestly think I post here for respect? Do you think I value any of your opinions? Nope.

More than anything this forum is a source of amusement for me. Every time you're baited into lock step predictable responses you never fail to let me down. Collectively the liberal, not progressive or any other more "electable" monicker, mindset of this board is as surprising to me as the rising of the morning sun.[/QUOTE]

And you're not?

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']There are two posters here worth their salt mykeyvermin and MrBadExample. They're the only two with a shred of reason and can at least discuss things intellectually as opposed to talking point partisan politics. The rest of you are pure unadulterated hacks. Yourself included Drocket..[/QUOTE]

Pot, meet kettle.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']The broad generalizations here, especially about me telling a GF she was raped and has to have the baby, are so laughably absurd as to not even deserve a proper response. [/QUOTE]

And you've never made broad generalizations?

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Why? Because I'm pro-choice.

However like anything else in life I believe in education, awareness and oversight (In the case of minors.) when it comes to the matter. I believe women should be told that there are groups that will provide free housing, medical care and provide an adoptive family. I believe that women should be counseled about the development of what is inside of them. That at week 11 vital organs are in place and by week 12 there are reflexes to the brain. That is not the sign of just some group of cells that should arbitarily be thrown aside. [/QUOTE]

Well, most people would agree with a lot of that if you were a little more tempered about it.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']However I know it's much easier for all of you to throw slings and arrows while collectively dismissing any viewpoint that doesn't square with yours. The great thing about this, to me, is that my side is winning the debates. My side is advancing a point of view. All that remains for the **AHEM** "left" is to defend their agenda of abortion on demand, whenever, where ever and for whom ever. Forget the fact that 40 million of them have taken place in 32 years. That number just isn't a telling fact![/QUOTE]

What exactly is "winning"? Abortion laws are still pretty liberal as far as I can tell, and a federal ban on abortion would require an amendment to the constitution, and you'd need 34 states for that. So the Supreme Court would have to overturn Roe v. Wade, and even then it would just become a state issue. of course, you could argue that a court that overturns Roe v. Wade would allow a federal ban on abortion to pass without a constitutional amendment, but a more conservative court is likely to uphold states' rights.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']What is it we're told? Moderation? We must compromise, come together and unite? Well apparently that only applies if everyone compromises, comes together and unites under the viewpoints of the far left extremeists that dominate this board and the mainstream Democratic party.[/QUOTE]

No. Moderation is the acceptance and advancement of ideas from both sides. Restrictions on abortion in the second and third trimester while still allowing the choice to be the woman's, for example, would be a moderate viewpoint.

And how in the hell do you define "far left extremist"? I mean, it seems to be that Nixon would fall under your definition.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Keep generalizing and dismissing. It only makes me happier that this debate is so won that you're reduced to personal attacks, ad hominem statements and theorhetical what ifs. [/QUOTE]

This is a god damn internet message board.
 
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