Judge rules against 'intelligent design' in science class

Wow. Score one for science. Now if we can just score one for reason and human dignity twill be a happy holiday sure ‘nuff!
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/20/AR2005122001715.html

The opinion written by Judge John E. Jones III in the Dover evolution trial is a two-in-one document that offers both philosophical and practical arguments against "intelligent design" likely to be useful to far more than a school board in a small Pennsylvania town.

When evolution's defenders find themselves tongue-tied and seemingly bested by neo-creationists -- when they believe they have the facts on their side but do not know where to find them -- this 139-page document may be the thing they turn to.

"While answering this . . . compels us to revisit evidence that is entirely complex, if not obtuse," he writes, "after a six-week trial that spanned 21 days . . . no other tribunal in the United States is in a better position than are we to traipse into this controversial area." He makes plain his hope that many months of intellectual heavy lifting "may prevent the obvious waste of judicial and other resources which would be occasioned by a subsequent trial involving the precise question which is before us."

First, Jones writes, people would be well advised to remember that an argument against one thing cannot necessarily be interpreted as an argument for something else. For example, the fact that the fossil record is incomplete is not evidence that human beings must have been created in their current form.
The world, in other words, is not a zero-sum, dichotomous one in which a vote against one candidate equals a vote for another.

"Just because scientists cannot explain today how biological systems evolved does not mean that they cannot, and will not, be able to explain them tomorrow," the judge says.

Another logical failing cited by the court concerns one of intelligent design's central arguments: "irreducible complexity."

That argument states that some biological systems -- such as the bacterial flagellum, a whiplike appendage that offers some microbes a means of propelling themselves -- are made of components that, individually, do not have any purpose. Because there would be no evolutionary advantage for those individual parts, they must have arisen all at once -- and expressly for the purpose of serving in that complex organ.

But Jones notes that just because a complex organ cannot work today with one component removed, that does not mean the component did not evolve independently to serve a different purpose and later took on a new role when combined with other parts. The judge notes multiple examples involving the immune system, the blood clotting system, and even the bacterial flagellum itself, in which this appears to have been the case.

***
I think Judge John Jones (good Lord what a generic-sounding name) is being a bit optimistic in hoping that future attempts of religious groups to commandeer scientific/rational credibility for use in tending the flocks of the faithful might somehow be diverted from the nation's courtrooms...but I do feel that he is careful & precise in the wording of his ruling.

I am glad that he focused on the error of adopting an "either/or" approach to the issue...which is not scientifically sound. If two competing theories exist to explain some phenomena, an argument casting doubt on one theory is NOT "proof" for the other. Both theories can easily be wrong. Intelligent Design proponents focus on questioning Evolutionary models, but when when it comes time to explain how their own theory works, it dissolves into a laughably inadequate assumption that if Evolutionary models can't explain everything, then why can't you accept that...you know...*nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*...SOMEthing or SOMEbody...is the answer?
:roll:
 
Good lord, 139 pages! I'm all for people talking about how intelligent design is wrong, but 139 pages just seems to ridiculously long.
 
Pat robertson thinks judge Jones and the entire state of Pennsylvania are going to hell for rejecting god. I'm sure a tsunami is headed for the east coast right now...
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']One small step for the state of Pennsylvania and one large leap for scientific dogma.[/QUOTE]

Let me give you a little help here.

dogma - a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

The scientific theory of evolution is the opposite of dogma. It is an attempt by scientists to explain the evolutionary phenomena in the most logical way possible. However it is not accepted by scientists as incontrovertable fact (notice the word "theory")
 
[quote name='camoor']Let me give you a little help here.

dogma - a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

The scientific theory of evolution is the opposite of dogma. It is an attempt by scientists to explain the evolutionary phenomena in the most logical way possible. However it is not accepted by scientists as incontrovertable fact (notice the word "theory")[/QUOTE]

Clearly you don't even seem to understand the concept of scientific dogma.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Clearly you don't even seem to understand the concept of scientific dogma.[/QUOTE]

OK, why don't you explain how forbidding the teaching of intelligent design is scientific dogma.
 
Perhaps it's my nerddom, but the idea of "irreducible complexity" makes me laugh damn-near uncontrollably. I like to think of the concept being applied throughout history, and where we'd be as a society if we applied it realistically.
 
[quote name='camoor']Let me give you a little help here.

dogma - a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

The scientific theory of evolution is the opposite of dogma. It is an attempt by scientists to explain the evolutionary phenomena in the most logical way possible. However it is not accepted by scientists as incontrovertable fact (notice the word "theory")[/QUOTE]

Did you ever notice that in the Webster's Dictionary words can have more than one meaning? In a scientific discipline, a theory is a fact.
 
[quote name='coffman']Did you ever notice that in the Webster's Dictionary words can have more than one meaning? In a scientific discipline, a theory is a fact.[/QUOTE]

Oh, is that sarcasm I detect? Well how clever!

Too bad you are completely wrong.

As noted above, in common usage a theory is defined as little more than a guess or a hypothesis. But in science and generally in academic usage, a theory is much more than that. A theory is an established paradigm that explains all or much of the data we have and offers valid predictions that can be tested. In science, a theory is not considered fact or infallible, because we can never assume we know all there is to know. Instead, theories remain standing until they are disproved, at which point they are thrown out altogether or modified to fit the additional data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
 
Just ran across this article. The article is no longer normally available but is one of those ones that comes up when you hit the "cache" option in google.



And that's why Buell, the founder and president of the Texas-based Foundation for Thought and Ethics, publisher of the intelligent design textbook "Of Pandas and People," wants to intervene in a federal lawsuit against the Dover Area School District and its board.

An attorney for the 11 parents who filed the suit cross-examined Buell and chipped away at Buell's assertion that the Foundation is "not at all" a religious organization.......

Buell said he doesn't want the book to be synonymous with the school board because the board, judging from what he has read, wanted intelligent design in its biology classes for religious reasons.

And equating intelligent design -- and thus his book -- to religion would be "catastrophic," Buell said.........

Is organization religious? Buell said his organization is "not at all" Christian or religious in nature. But attorney Eric Rothschild with the Philadelphia-based law firm Pepper Hamilton pointed out that the not-for-profit organization's Internal Revenue Service tax exemption form says their primary purpose is "promoting and publishing textbooks presenting a Christian perspective."

Buell blamed the "error" on a new accountant who was "not even from the state of Texas."

He said he had never seen the form until Rothschild pointed out that his initials were on the bottom of one page.

The organization's Articles of Incorporation from the state of Texas also mention religion, Christianity and the Bible.

Buell blamed that on the attorney who filed the papers.

"So the accountant got it wrong and the attorney got it wrong?" Rothschild asked.

"That's true," Buell said.

Rothschild also brought forth several other examples of the foundation's possible religious ties, including an early draft of the book, which in its infant stages was titled "Biology of Origins."

The draft mentioned "creationism" frequently. But in the final copy of the book, after the title was changed, the word creationism was replaced with the phrase "intelligent design."



http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:s6_W2HhI8oIJ:www.yorkdispatch.com/Stories/0,1413,138%25257E10021%25257E2966761,00.html+%22The+draft+mentioned+%E2%80%9Ccreationism%E2%80%9D+frequently.+But+in+the+final+copy+of+the+book,+after+the+title+was+changed,+the+word+creationism+was+replaced+with+the+phrase+%E2%80%9Cintelligent+design.%E2%80%9D%22&hl=en



When a book can simply change the term creationism to intelligent design, why would anyone believe there is any difference?
 
Yes!

now i'm only really really fucking embarassed to be an american in europe as opposed to outrageously hiding my face in fucking shame for being from a back ass country!
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']Yes!

now i'm only really really fucking embarassed to be an american in europe as opposed to outrageously hiding my face in fucking shame for being from a back ass country![/QUOTE]
We call that progress under a Bush administration. :lol:
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Just ran across this article. The article is no longer normally available but is one of those ones that comes up when you hit the "cache" option in google. [/quote]

This is precisely why the federal judge who presided over the Dover case basically called those religious freaks "liars". So much for the 9th commandment (THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS).
 
[quote name='camoor']Oh, is that sarcasm I detect? Well how clever!

Too bad you are completely wrong.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory[/QUOTE]

No, actually wikipedia's definition is incorrect. After checking dozens of text books (chemistry, physics, and biology) I have found that those that define and discuss the definition of a theory state that a theory cannot be disproved because it has already passed all rigourous testing. That is why it is considered a theory, although the theory may be incomplete or may need to be improved.
 
[quote name='coffman']No, actually wikipedia's definition is incorrect. After checking dozens of text books (chemistry, physics, and biology) I have found that those that define and discuss the definition of a theory state that a theory cannot be disproved because it has already passed all rigourous testing. That is why it is considered a theory, although the theory may be incomplete or may need to be improved.[/QUOTE]

That paragraph would carry alot more sway if you actually cited your sources instead of cloaking them with the official-sounding label of 'chemistry, physics, and biology text books'.

Heck, this thread proves that there are "text books" that define creationism (oops I mean intelligent design) as a legitimate scientific theory.

How do you explain what happened to the scientific theory of Ptolemy's geocentric universe if scientific theories cannot be disproven?
 
[quote name='coffman']That is why it is considered a theory, although the theory may be incomplete or may need to be improved.[/QUOTE]
Which is why it cannot be considered "truth." It's really a semantic sleight of hand. Gravity is a theory, and one I hope to never seen disproven. The funny thing about science is that it never relies on proving something, but more on not being able to disprove something.

In statistical analysis, you sometimes have null hypotheses (there is no association between X and Y) and alternative hypotheses (there is an assocation between X and Y). You never accept either, but, rather either *reject* the null or *fail to reject* the null. Even the mathematics are based on chance. Briefly, you assume the null can be rejected to the extent that you prove that the probability of getting the data/results you got is *extremely* unlikely if there is no association (that is, if there was only a 1 in 100 chance of getting the data you measured if there was no association).
 
bread's done
Back
Top