Keith Ellison's wanting to swear in with a Quran "undermines American Civilization"

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[quote name='Dennis Prager']America, Not Kieth Ellison, Decides What Book a Congressman Takes His Oath On

Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the first Muslim elected to the United States Congress, has announced that he will not take his oath of office on the Bible, but on the bible of Islam, the Koran. He should not be allowed to do so -- not because of any American hostility to the Koran, but because the act undermines American civilization.
First, it is an act of hubris that perfectly exemplifies multiculturalist activism -- my culture trumps America's culture. What Ellison and his Muslim and leftist supporters are saying is that it is of no consequence what America holds as its holiest book; all that matters is what any individual holds to be his holiest book.
Forgive me, but America should not give a hoot what Keith Ellison's favorite book is. Insofar as a member of Congress taking an oath to serve America and uphold its values is concerned, America is interested in only one book, the Bible. If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress. In your personal life, we will fight for your right to prefer any other book. We will even fight for your right to publish cartoons mocking our Bible. But, Mr. Ellison, America, not you, decides on what book its public servants take their oath.
Devotees of multiculturalism and political correctness who do not see how damaging to the fabric of American civilization it is to allow Ellison to choose his own book need only imagine a racist elected to Congress. Would they allow him to choose Hitler's "Mein Kampf," the Nazis' bible, for his oath? And if not, why not? On what grounds will those defending Ellison's right to choose his favorite book deny that same right to a racist who is elected to public office?
Of course, Ellison's defenders argue that Ellison is merely being honest; since he believes in the Koran and not in the Bible, he should be allowed, even encouraged, to put his hand on the book he believes in. But for all of American history, Jews elected to public office have taken their oath on the Bible, even though they do not believe in the New Testament, and the many secular elected officials have not believed in the Old Testament either. Yet those secular officials did not demand to take their oaths of office on, say, the collected works of Voltaire or on a volume of New York Times editorials, writings far more significant to some liberal members of Congress than the Bible. Nor has one Mormon official demanded to put his hand on the Book of Mormon. And it is hard to imagine a scientologist being allowed to take his oath of office on a copy of "Dianetics" by L. Ron Hubbard.
So why are we allowing Keith Ellison to do what no other member of Congress has ever done -- choose his own most revered book for his oath?
The answer is obvious -- Ellison is a Muslim. And whoever decides these matters, not to mention virtually every editorial page in America, is not going to offend a Muslim. In fact, many of these people argue it will be a good thing because Muslims around the world will see what an open society America is and how much Americans honor Muslims and the Koran.
This argument appeals to all those who believe that one of the greatest goals of America is to be loved by the world, and especially by Muslims because then fewer Muslims will hate us (and therefore fewer will bomb us).
But these naive people do not appreciate that America will not change the attitude of a single American-hating Muslim by allowing Ellison to substitute the Koran for the Bible. In fact, the opposite is more likely: Ellison's doing so will embolden Islamic extremists and make new ones, as Islamists, rightly or wrongly, see the first sign of the realization of their greatest goal -- the Islamicization of America.
When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization. If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9-11. It is hard to believe that this is the legacy most Muslim Americans want to bequeath to America. But if it is, it is not only Europe that is in trouble.

Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columinst for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
[/QUOTE]Who else thinks this guy's unbelievable?
It's people like him who want to limit people's freedom's because it will "undermine American civilization" who are doing the undermining.
 
It's a Catch-22 for me.

I can understand him not wanting to swear on the Bible (which was stated isn't required), because that's not the book he believes in. It's customary to do so, but not required. It could go a ways to extend the view of an 'understanding nation.'

However, this just seems to extend the divide between Muslims and others in this country. He and we are making a big deal out of it because he specifically does not want to do it. I've not seen one article about Jewish congresspeople having an issue.

Who's right? I am. Do it on the flag. That's what you should be held accountable to when you decide to declare an oath to defend our Constitution. The flag represents the people who will yank your ass out of there should you do something we don't like, God will judge you after that.
 
[quote name='LiquidNight']Who else thinks this guy's unbelievable?
It's people like him who want to limit people's freedom's because it will "undermine American civilization" who are doing the undermining.[/QUOTE]

I just can't understand the alarmist crap that comes out of people like Dennis Prager. It's the downfall of American civilization that somebody wants to take us up on this quaint idea of "religious freedom"!

Question: Does Joe Lieberman get sworn in on a Torah?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I just can't understand the alarmist crap that comes out of people like Dennis Prager. It's the downfall of American civilization that somebody wants to take us up on this quaint idea of "religious freedom"!

Question: Does Joe Lieberman get sworn in on a Torah?[/QUOTE]

Joe Lieberman gets sworn in on a stack of 8X10s of Joe Lieberman.

Prager does what he does because it sells. There is no room for reasoned debate anymorel; it is either "liberal cultural permissiveness is going to bring about the end of the world" or "conservative warmongering and fiscal concentration is going to bring about the end of the world."

In all caps, of course. "Sit down, shut up, and listen to someone who disagrees with you" is not a major angle in the political market. The one thing I respect Rick Santorum for is making a political ad this year featuring a buncha pro wrestlers, which, of course, served as a metaphor for washington. That's all it is; fake fighting and theater.
 
Anyone who would have a problem with this just doesn't get what makes America great IMO. And doesn't it make since to let the guy swear in on his holy book of choice? The point of the oath is for it be sincere and meaningful to the oath taker, right?
 
Call me crazy but I kind of agree with him. If everyone has sworn on the bible then he should have to use the bible too. Im not religous at all, but if I was in a position where there was a certain way things were done, then I would do it. he knew what he was getting into when he ran for office or whatever.
This douche bag wants to go cause controversy just cause hes an ass who cant follow a simple tradition. Either way, its just a book. Its the ceremony and the meaning that matters, not what book you do it on. So just use the damn Bible like everyone else.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']
Who's right? I am. Do it on the flag. That's what you should be held accountable to when you decide to declare an oath to defend our Constitution. The flag represents the people who will yank your ass out of there should you do something we don't like[/quote]

I like this idea. Keep Islam and Christianity out of the system.
 
Would they allow him to choose Hitler's "Mein Kampf," the Nazis' bible, for his oath?

How many times are ppl going to drag the Nazis into discussions where they do not belong? Seriously, he could have used the "Communist Manifesto" to get his point across - why the Nazis?
 
[quote name='DeathDealer']Call me crazy but I kind of agree with him. If everyone has sworn on the bible then he should have to use the bible too. Im not religous at all, but if I was in a position where there was a certain way things were done, then I would do it. he knew what he was getting into when he ran for office or whatever.
This douche bag wants to go cause controversy just cause hes an ass who cant follow a simple tradition. Either way, its just a book. Its the ceremony and the meaning that matters, not what book you do it on. So just use the damn Bible like everyone else.[/quote]Since it doesn't matter what book you swear in on, then why is he a "douchebag" for wanting to use his religious book?[quote name='The Constitution, Article II, Section 1']Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:whistle2:-"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." [/quote]Nowhere in that does it specify just what the elected official must swear to. Hell, it doesn't even require them to swear, they can affirm if they don't want to swear in God's name or if they don't believe in God.

[quote name='Transcript off of Paula Zahn Now on CNN, 2006 November 30'] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): Keith Ellison made history on election night by becoming the first Muslim ever elected to Congress. The 43-year- old Democrat and Detroit native was raised Catholic, but converted to Islam in college.
ZAHN: He's been an attorney, a political activist and a member of the Minnesota legislature. During the campaign, he pointed out that he's neither a cleric nor a religious scholar. But after getting elected with 56 percent of the vote in a racially-diverse Minneapolis district, Ellison said he wanted to use a Koran instead of a Bible when he's sworn in next January.

Both the Constitution itself and the very first law of Congress ever passed back in 1789 require all government officials swear or affirm an oath to protect the Constitution. There's no requirement to use a Bible to administer that oath.

President George Washington on his own used a Bible at his inauguration in 1789, but the next president, John Adams was sworn in using a law book. For more than a century now, presidents have all been sworn in with the Bible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

ZAHN: It is different for members of Congress. They usually take their oath of office twice, first all together on the House floor, during a big opening day ceremony without a Bible.

In a statement to CNN, Ellison says the U.S. Congress will not be changing the swearing in ceremony for Representative Ellison, nor has anyone asked them to.

The most likely place where Ellison would use his Koran would be during the unofficial swearing in photo sessions with the speaker of the House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The very notion of using the Koran instead of the Bible, even for swearing in, that is nothing more than a photo op has some people really upset, including one of my next guests.

Radio host and columnist Dennis Prager has written that a swearing in using the Koran would undermine the fabric of American civilization. He joins us tonight from Los Angeles, along with UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh. And here with me in New York is Daisy Khan, the executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancing. Welcome all.

Dennis, I want to start with you tonight and start off by reading a small part of the editorial you wrote, where you said "when all elected officials, take the oath of office, with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization. If Keith Ellison is allowed it change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America than the terrorists of 9/11."

How can you charge that someone expressing religious freedom would be causing the kind of damage that the 9/11 terrorists did?

DENNIS PRAGER, RADIO HOST: Well the issue isn't expressing religious freedom. As I also wrote in there, I would fight for his right to worship as a Muslim, to run for Congress as a Muslim. That's not the issue.

The issue is exactly as you put it earlier. What is the book that these people affirm as the central text of American life? Now some people will say the Constitution. But the Constitution derives its legitimacy from that Bible. Secular congressmen have all used the Bible. They don't believe in it.

Mormons do not ask for the book of Mormon. If a scientologist ran, would he ask for Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard)? If a racist ran, would he ask for Mein Kampf? We are starting a very unfortunate further unraveling of the fabric of American life. That's my worry.

ZAHN: Eugene, does the Constitution say anything about using a religion text when being sworn in for Congress?

EUGENE VOLOKH, UCLA LAW PROFESSOR: Well it actually does say a couple of things. First, it doesn't even require congressman to use any religious text or any religious component. It specifically provides that they may affirm, rather than swearing. That was for the benefit of people who have a religious objection to invoking God in an oath.

Quakers were a traditional example. And for example, President Herbert Hoover was sworn in without putting his hand on any book. So already we've departed from Dennis's vision of everybody swearing on the same book.

It also says no religious text shall be used for government office. And when you're required to swear on the book of a religion that is different from you, not traditionally you've done it, that would be an impermissible religious test. More importantly, the purpose of an oath....

ZAHN: ... OK, we've just lost Eugene. A quick reaction, Dennis from you, before we hear from Daisy?

PRAGER: Well, there's no religious test. The issue is what is the work that he wishes that we wish to affirm as our central text? There's no religious test. I want Muslims to run for office, I want atheists, I want Buddhists. It is no religious test of Keith Ellison. It is what decision does he wish to convey? What message to the American people? Do our values derive from the Bible or from the Koran? That is to me, the question. No religious test of Keith Ellison.

ZAHN: Does this show a disregard, do you think, on Mr. Prager's part for Muslims, Daisy?

DAISY KHAN, MUSLIM ADVANCEMENT OF SOCIETY: Well, I think the foundational values of America, our freedom of religion and freedom to express your religion and to practice in the way that you see your values. And I think what is important is this is a very proud moment for Americans, American Muslims and all Americans, and I think it is sad that somebody would try to ruin this moment for all of us by trying...

PRAGER: Am I ruining it for Mormons when I cite that Mormons don't use the "Book of Mormon". I'm not ruining -- I don't want to ruin it for anyone. I want to keep Americans united on one, basic thing. We are endowed by our creator with certain fundamental rights.

KHAN: And that is...

VOLOKH: That's not the purpose of an oath. The purpose of an oath is not affirm the correctness of the book that you use. The purpose of using a book is to invoke God as your witness and as a means of firming up your resolve to abide by the oath.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But Eugene, let me close with a final quote from Mr. Prager's editorial.

Let me close with this. Hang on, gentlemen, for one moment.

He says, "America is interested in only one book, the Bible. If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress."

Eugene?

VOLOKH: Well, for starters, the Constitution specifically says that you may refuse to use any book for. You may refuse even to give an oath. You may affirm. That's what Herbert Hoover did. Justice Goldberg, a Jewish Supreme Court Justice...

PRAGER: Herbert Hoover had a Bible.

VOLOKH: He affirmed. He didn't even swear an oath...

PRAGER: Herbert Hoover did. He just didn't swear by it, because I believe he was a Quaker. That's a very different story.

VOLOKH: Justice Goldberg used the Tanakh, the Jewish Bible.

PRAGER: Justice Goldberg used Old Testament, which is part of the American Bible.

(CROSSTALK)

VOLOKH: What you're saying about you have to use the same book...

ZAHN: Daisy, you get the final word tonight as we close out this...

VOLOKH: .. is already being violated.

KHAN: Well, I'm saying that America is great, and we have to uphold America's greatest values, which is coming together of all. You know, we're a multi-cultural, multi-religious society and we have to work together to create a good society. There are eight million Muslims in America now, 25 million Muslims living all over the West.

ZAHN: I understand. But you're saying he should be able to take the oath office on the Koran?

KHAN: Absolutely, because -- because, you know, an oath is something that is very important. And I think it's -- I think it's -- I think it's his integrity that he's speaking from, not a lack of integrity. And I think we should -- we should really...

ZAHN: We've got to leave it there. Sorry to have to cut you off. Commercial's ready to take us off the air.

Here's Daisy Khan, Eugene Volokh, Dennis Prager. Appreciate your time.
[/quote]Here's a transcript of an interview with Prager and a few others on Paula Zahn Now on 2006 November 30.
 
[quote name='wubb']And doesn't it make since to let the guy swear in on his holy book of choice? The point of the oath is for it be sincere and meaningful to the oath taker, right?[/quote]

I completely agree with that point. If the book holds no significance in this man's heart then neither would the act of putting his hand on it. A book or object of any sort isn't even necessary since it's merely an artificial way of putting someone in the right frame of mind to make an oath. Their word is all that matters.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']

However, this just seems to extend the divide between Muslims and others in this country. He and we are making a big deal out of it because he specifically does not want to do it. I've not seen one article about Jewish congresspeople having an issue.
[/QUOTE]


To be fair you did "borrow" our bible as yours, so we on swear in on the front part of yours.
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']To be fair you did "borrow" our bible as yours, so we on swear in on the front part of yours.[/QUOTE]

Funny that I would have put "bible" in quotes instead of "borrow".

I never understood the whole hand on the bible thing anyway. You are swearing an oath to protect and defend the constitution. Why not put your hand on that? Unless, of course, you don't really believe in it in the first place. I certainly have more faith in the Constitution and the men who wrote it than in any other piece of literature claiming to be the word of god.

Is my own honor not sacrosanct ? After all, I am made in god's image. If that's not enough for you to take me at my word, then fuck you and your bible. Good day sir - I SAID GOOD DAY!

Sip.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Joe Lieberman gets sworn in on a stack of 8X10s of Joe Lieberman.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

[quote name='bmulligan']I never understood the whole hand on the bible thing anyway. You are swearing an oath to protect and defend the constitution. Why not put your hand on that? Unless, of course, you don't really believe in it in the first place. I certainly have more faith in the Constitution and the men who wrote it than in any other piece of literature claiming to be the word of god.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. The constitution is probably the best choice for something like this, if you feel the need to put your hand on anything in the first place. The point, as has been said, is swearing your oath on something you take seriously.
 
[quote name='trq']Agreed. The constitution is probably the best choice for something like this, if you feel the need to put your hand on anything in the first place. The point, as has been said, is swearing your oath on something you take seriously.[/quote]

Talking about feeling the need to put my hand on something, I take Jessica Alba's breasts seriously.

Just swear me in on one of those puppies.
 
[quote name='camoor']Talking about feeling the need to put my hand on something, I take Jessica Alba's breasts seriously.

Just swear me in on one of those puppies.[/QUOTE]

You have my vote.
 
[quote name='trq']You have my vote.[/QUOTE]

You'll have every male in the US writing themselves in, and a large majority of lesbians.

The only significant voting bloc left will be heterosexual women.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You'll have every male in the US writing themselves in, and a large majority of lesbians.

The only significant voting bloc left will be heterosexual women.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I don't know. You don't think it'll be like kissing babies? All the ladies will see that and swoon. "Oh, that Camoor .... he's so virile! I'll vote for him!"
 
I meant that, if elected, one gets to be sworn in by cupping Jessica Alba's breast, every straight male and gay female will write themselves in. For every position.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I meant that, if elected, one gets to be sworn in by cupping Jessica Alba's breast, every straight male and gay female will write themselves in. For every position.[/QUOTE]

Oh.

Well ... that's still a positive in my book. We'd have to judge the merits of campaign promises based on whether we like them so much we'd pass up the chance to cop a feel on Jessica Alba. I bet nobody cares about anti-gay marriage amendments or whatever enough to possibly miss out. It'd be great. Whole fraternaties will put their votes behind guys with nicknames like "Moose." The Elks and the Shriners and the VWA will all vote for their oldest members. Have you no faith in the system, Myke? Jessica Alba's boobies could be the greatest thing to happen to democracy since diebold machines.
 
[quote name='trq']:lol:



Agreed. The constitution is probably the best choice for something like this, if you feel the need to put your hand on anything in the first place. The point, as has been said, is swearing your oath on something you take seriously.[/QUOTE]

Only problem is, the Constitution is under heavier lock and key and glass than boobies at the FCC. So, you'd be swearing in on a fake.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Only problem is, the Constitution is under heavier lock and key and glass than boobies at the FCC. So, you'd be swearing in on a fake.[/QUOTE]

Well, is it that important that it be the original? As long as the text remained the same? It's not like any of these guys have been swearing in on the bible in Aramaic or whatever. I'd think I'd still pick the constitution over the flag, if only because the flag seems to represent the country as a whole, whereas the constitution is more a written, codified version of our values. It's a slim distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.
 
There are a lot of people who would make the distinction of real v fake. Fake, it's just a Xerox. Real, people died for it. While it might be a discussion in semantics, it would be a discussion all the same.
 
[quote name='ananag112']What happened to separating religion and government? I still don't get the point of swearing on the bible.[/quote]

Apparently people think politicians are more truthful if they have their hand on a certain book. It has obviously never worked.
 
[quote name='ananag112']What happened to separating religion and government? I still don't get the point of swearing on the bible.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. bigdaddy's Constitution idea doesn't sound so bad.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']There are a lot of people who would make the distinction of real v fake. Fake, it's just a Xerox. Real, people died for it. While it might be a discussion in semantics, it would be a discussion all the same.[/QUOTE]

same thing goes for boobs
 
[quote name='ananag112']What happened to separating religion and government? I still don't get the point of swearing on the bible.[/QUOTE]
Tradition, probably.

I'd want to swear in on an issue of Archie's Digest, myself. And the whole Jessica Alba's breast thing, mentioned earlier. (Except with my penis sammiched between her breasts.)
 
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6718662&ft=1&f=1001

[quote name='NPR'] Newly elected Rep. Keith Ellison announced last month that he planned to take the oath of office with his hand on the Quran. The decision by the Minnesota Democrat, the first Muslim elected to Congress, drew criticism.

But now Ellison says he plans to use a copy of the Quran once owned by Thomas Jefferson. Michele Norris talks with Mark Dimunation, chief of the Rare Book and Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, who helped Ellison locate Jefferson's Quran.[/quote]

I never knew Thomas Jefferson hated America so much he owned a Qu'ran. I'm stunned that Ellison managed to set it up this way; while I'd prefer a flag/constitution/something nonreligious, this is a pretty interesting turn of events.
 
God the whole thought sickens me here's my idea the congressman - instead of putting thier hand on a book- hook up to a lie detector and then open it up to anyone they can find on the street and have the congressman answer as many as possible in some form of game show like lightning round and the congressman's sexuality, intelligence, and thier love of america is then debated based on a bell curve scale so all the near phsycotic talk show hosts can now just how long to beat a dead horse. Dang that's one long sentence I've got there. 'Kay politicalifictioness decomencing

and yeah the whole usinng Tj's copy is genius on his part
 
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