Koran Burning, Ground Zero Mosque: Same Shit?

IRHari

IRHari

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"To Pastor Jones and those who want to build the [so-called Ground Zero] Mosque," Boehner said (drawing an equivalence between Koran burning and the Cordoba House Project in lower Manhattan) "Just because you have a right to do something in America, does not mean it's the right thing to do. We're a nation of religious freedom -- we're also a nation of tolerance. I think in the name of tolerance, people ought to really think about the kind of actions they're taking."
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http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/boehner-koran-burning-unwise-video.php
 
The mosque in new york is not an issue of intolerance, at least not in the sense that the people building it are being intolerant. What exactly are they being intolerant of to Boehner?
 
Legally, there's little difference (aside from them stemming from different aspects of the constitution - i.e., property vs. speech).

But the difference I see is that there's plenty of room for debate w/r/t whether the mosque/community center in New York is insensitive, whereas there's *zero* room for debate with a planned mosque burning. One has a million plausible motives outside of insensitivity, and the other is the only possible reasoning.

So I hope that those who don't want to see the NYC mosque/community center built because it's "insensitive" will stand up to Terry Jones, his church, and their plans.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']

So I hope that those who don't want to see the NYC mosque/community center built because it's "insensitive" will stand up to Terry Jones, his church, and their plans.[/QUOTE]

Just like with the building of the mosque in NYC it is the guys right to do what he wants. If he wants to burn a bible, koran, whatever. It is quite a bit of a douchebag move, but he can do what he wants.

On the other hand even though people have no legal standing to stop him from doing it, they can protest, and ask him to not do such an insensitive thing.
 
I would agree with myke; those who think they're the same (regarding sensitivities) already see Park 51 as a Muslim supremacist sand in the eye douchy provocation.

EDIT: case in point, ^^^^this guy
 
[quote name='IRHari']I would agree with myke; those who think they're the same (regarding sensitivities) already see Park 51 as a Muslim supremacist sand in the eye douchy provocation.

EDIT: case in point, ^^^^this guy[/QUOTE]

Would burning flags be the same?
 
No need to go into it with Knoell on this one, I think we all get his general position on the topic, but I will point out that this Qur'an burning thing is hilarious.

One of the preferred ways for a Muslim to destroy a damaged Qur'an is to burn it. So these idiots are actually destroying the Qu'ran in one of the only respectable ways to do it. If they were throwing it in the trash, or taking it into a bathroom, they would actually be doing things that Muslims aren't allowed to do with one, but by burning it, they're disposing of it in the best way.
 
[quote name='iluvmywife']Wait, didn't Muhammed marry a six year old girl then consummated the marriage when the girl was 9?

Is that in the Koran?[/QUOTE]

No, but there is all this other wacky crap. For starters, it allows slavery. Bonus points if you sell your own daughter. Oh, and God forbid you wear a shirt that's only 50% cotton. No, really. Plus, if you work on Saturday, I have to kill you.

Oh wait, that's the Bible. Ah well, that's just part of the stuff noone reads anyway.
 
Just keep telling yourself, its a religion of peace...


Hot on the heels of "we'll blow up your shit if you burn our book," we now have "we'll blow up your shit if you move the site where we want to build our church:"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39073267/ns/us_news

Aside from the fact that this will galvanize the opposition to the church, it severely weakens the Imam's case (and anyone in this thread's case) about components of peace in the religion.


I mean, I'm sure if any other religion were planning building a church 2 blocks from where thousands of civilians were murdered by extremists of that same religion, asking a leader from that religion to move that site would of course naturally mean that more civilians should be murdered. Yeah, right.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Boehner is 100% correct. Just because you have the freedom to yell FIRE! in a crowded theater doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, nor are you entitled to do it without a consequence under freedom of speech.[/QUOTE]

You actually don't have the freedom to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']No, but there is all this other wacky crap. For starters, it allows slavery. Bonus points if you sell your own daughter. Oh, and God forbid you wear a shirt that's only 50% cotton. No, really. Plus, if you work on Saturday, I have to kill you.


Oh wait, that's the Bible. Ah well, that's just part of the stuff noone reads anyway.[/QUOTE]

You can't be serious, do you really believe that is the core message of the bible?

Two words, Sharia Law.

Also, Americans have died fighting for the American Flag, and people thought it ok for scum to burn it. Now, someone wants to burn a Koran and everyone is so upset.

I will not burn a Koran but if other people want to then that is their business. This is America and we still have some freedom.

Edit: Everything you quoted is in the old Testament, try reading the new Testament
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']You actually don't have the freedom to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

[quote name='iluvmywife']You can't be serious, do you really believe that is the core message of the bible?

Two words, Sharia Law.[/QUOTE]

You don't know much about Islam, do you?

Allow me to follow this question up with another (or several others): you know Sharia as a code of conduct for Islam exists independent of any clamor for "law," yes?

Yes? Oh, of course you do. So there's no need to tie a moral code to a few (most certainly not all) of followers of Islam who think it needs to become a legal code?

Insomuch, at least, as it pertains to the central attempt at your argument: i.e., contrasting the "core messages" of religious texts. As the internet once said, "you're doing it wrong."
 
[quote name='iluvmywife']You can't be serious, do you really believe that is the core message of the bible?

Two words, Sharia Law.

Also, Americans have died fighting for the American Flag, and people thought it ok for scum to burn it. Now, someone wants to burn a Koran and everyone is so upset.

I will not burn a Koran but if other people want to then that is their business. This is America and we still have some freedom.

Edit: Everything you quoted is in the old Testament, try reading the new Testament[/QUOTE]

This New Testament?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/VIOLENCENT

As others have adequately addressed, you're clueless about Islam. Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, just means it's not an educated one.

As you were.
 
I think the Jon Stewart quote says it best regarding the false equivalency between the Quran burning and mosque building: "A Christian is an extremist for burning the Quran, and a Muslim is an extremist for reading from it."
 
Is there anything sacrosanct remaining? I think burning any book is a sign of craziness, let alone the religious Koran. I might question many of the messages it contains (similar to berzirk's left field attacks on the old testament) but as long as the people who study it follow the Western way of life (personal freedoms, fair judicial system, etc.) and separate out the old and antiquated rules/practices then there's really no reason to desecrate the text or berate the followers (talking to you berzirk). Unfortunately, Islamic law (eye for an eye) is still being usedin many areas and needs to be brought into an open, 21st century forum. Burning the Koran is not the way to do this or 'get even' with the 9/11 attacks.

But we should also be condemning the reactions of 100s of Afghans burning US flags and chanting "Death to the Christians" as well as personal death threats targeted at Jones (even given his egregious intentions)
 
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[quote name='tivo']Is there anything sacrosanct remaining? I think burning any book is a sign of craziness, let alone the religious Koran. I might question many of the messages it contains (similar to berzirk's left field attacks on the old testament) but as long as the people who study it follow the Western way of life (personal freedoms, fair judicial system, etc.) and separate out the old and antiquated rules/practices then there's really no reason to desecrate the text or berate the followers (talking to you berzirk). Unfortunately, Islamic law (eye for an eye) is still being usedin many areas and needs to be brought into an open, 21st century forum. Just like our talk over this Koran burning and not like the 100s of Afghans burning US flags and chanting "Death to the Christians" [/QUOTE]

Please re-read my post and this thread. I linked to violence as quoted in the New Testament because another poster said that linking to violence in the Old Testament wasn't relevant to him. I made no qualifying statements about the Bible whatsoever, and I never have here. You either didn't read clearly, or intentionally wanted to lie about that. I'll assume the former, because I would like to believe you have no reason to intentionally twist my words to say something that I didn't even come close to saying.

And an eye for an eye is certainly antiquated, and thankfully no longer practiced in the United States. We've moved beyond that now and...oh sh*t, the death penalty just slapped me in the face!
 
The old testament? That jew book? Pffffttt.

That's what it sounds like to when someone tries to dismiss the old testament as if it doesn't exist or apply.

Since someone mentioned Jon Stewart, anyone who saw last night's Daily Show will get my above reaction.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Off topic, but if the bible really does say all those terrible things, why do people say it doesn't...?[/QUOTE]

Because they haven't read it don't read.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
Allow me to follow this question up with another (or several others)[/QUOTE]

Wow, thats not like you Myke.

I kid I kid (well kinda). On topic I think that burning the Koran is a terrible thing to do, for any reason, whether you are legally entitled to or not.
 
[quote name='iluvmywife']You can't be serious, do you really believe that is the core message of the bible?[/QUOTE]

No, and that's the point. The same kind of selectivist crap is being levied against Islam; just look at shit like this.

Moreover, I don't see why you're so stridently against the Old Testament. Did you not read that last passage I quoted? Totally outmoded, isn't it?
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Off topic, but if the bible really does say all those terrible things, why do people say it doesn't...?[/QUOTE]

Like most beliefs, they pick and choose what they want to follow. And it makes them look better if the negative stuff is never acknowledged.
 
"Just because you have a right to do something in America, does not mean it's the right thing to do."
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The dumb thing about this talking point is it can be used to argue against just about anything. "Just because you have a right to carry a firearm, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do!" "Just because you have a right to get an abortion, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do!" "Just because you have a right to eat a Big Mac, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do!"

It's such a flimsy argument.
 
The dude caved.

The pastor of a Florida church is adament that he was promised that officials planning an Islamic center near ground zero in New York would move it if he canceled his plans to burn Qurans on Sept. 11.

Pastor Terry Jones spoke again to reporters Thursday after Muslim leaders said they had only agreed to a meeting Saturday in New York to discuss the mosque's location.

Jones said he would be "very, very disappointed" if the mosque is not moved. He insisted that central Florida Imam Muhammad Musri told him four times in front of witnesses that the New York mosque leaders promised to move it.

Musri told The Associated Press he only offered to set up a meeting between Jones and the New York leaders. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf who is planning the mosque says there is no deal.
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[quote name='IRHari']Jones decided not to do it. End of outrage.

I'm debating whether to close this thread or not.[/QUOTE]
Not until The Donald gets some attention.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_bi_ge/us_nyc_mosque_trump
Trump also attached a condition to his offer: He said that as part of the deal, the backers of the mosque project would need to promise that any new mosque they constructed would be at least five blocks farther away from the World Trade Center site.
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Btw, I heard this guy speak on the radio earlier, why do so many people insist on pronouncing "Muslim" as "Moslum"? It makes them sound like inbred hicks.
 
[quote name='Clak']Btw, I heard this guy speak on the radio earlier, why do so many people insist on pronouncing "Muslim" as "Moslum"? It makes them sound like inbred hicks.[/QUOTE]

You talkin bout those Mohammedans?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Jones decided not to do it. End of outrage.

I'm debating whether to close this thread or not.[/QUOTE]

It's not over yet - apparently the stupid fucker still needs more media attention.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/florida.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=T2

A Florida pastor who called off a Quran burning said late Thursday he would "rethink our position" after a Muslim leader said the minister incorrectly announced that the proposed Islamic center near New York's ground zero would be moved as part of a deal.
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I still don't get why people care so much about this. It's some little church burning a book to try and be controversial (the same thing that the westboro nuts do with the whole protest funerals for soldiers crap). The media is blowing this waaaaaay out of proportion, but it's not that they ever do that :roll:.
 
It blows me away that we even know about this. This story is 100% media manufactured. They got bored and need some controversy to report on. The media is totally and completely responsible for any harm that comes from this.

How many times do religous books get burned? How many of them do we know about? How many of them do we WANT to know about?

The media should be put on trial for this if anyone gets harmed from giving this guy a voice.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']It blows me away that we even know about this. This story is 100% media manufactured. They got bored and need some controversy to report on. The media is totally and completely responsible for any harm that comes from this.

How many times do religous books get burned? How many of them do we know about? How many of them do we WANT to know about?

The media should be put on trial for this if anyone gets harmed from giving this guy a voice.[/QUOTE]

The mainstream media is doing what they're told to do: generate a distraction.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']The media should be put on trial for this if anyone gets harmed from giving this guy a voice.[/QUOTE]

I'm assuming you're being hyperbolic, the media still has first amendment rights.

As much of an ignorant bigoted attention-whore this preacher is, I don't know that we can stop him from burning the koran through the legal process. However I wouldn't be adverse to the government billing him for creating a spectacle and requiring special police security.
 
Based on thrusts previous posts on this, I'd assume he'd say just pass that bill right on to the media. Without the media creating such a huge "story" out of this nutjob, everyone goes on living their lives having no idea (unless some local paper covers it) that it even happened.
 
The media is totally responsible for this. Korans get burned all the time by nutjobs. Bibles get burned all the time by nutjobs. There is nothing that makes this nutjob special. The media is just needs to extend this Mosque story and they are doing it through this.

It really makes me livid. It's as if I stood on my roof and started shouting that I am going piss on the constitution next week. Nobody would give a shit. My neighbors wouldn't give a shit, it would just annoy them. But if some bored media outlet got wind of it and started a chain reaction of news vans showing up at my house, suddenly it's an international story that starts a massive shit storm. Total bullshit.

There is NOTHING unique or special about this story worth reporting on. The congregation this guy has is 60 people. 60 fucking people!

Any news org covering this story should be ashamed of themselves and better be made to realize they are directly responsible for anyone that might get killed because of this.
 
[quote name='camoor']However I wouldn't be adverse to the government billing him for creating a spectacle and requiring special police security.[/QUOTE]

Do we also get to bill those behind the mosque Community Center for creating a spectacle and requiring a police security? When groups organize large marches on Washington, do we get to bill them as well?
 
Are you guys honestly blaming the media for this? Really?

Some guy wants to burn 50 Korans but he's cool. It's really just the media that's blowing it way out of porportion, right?

What proportion would you suggest then? Is there a minimum amount of bigotry that must be present before the media is allowed to report on a story? Maybe it's 1000 copies of the Koran? Maybe if he has 250 members of his congregation? What if kids thrown a couple copies in?

Book burning of any kind isn't relevant. Is that your point? The media should just ignore the story of angry white bigots because it makes you guys look worse and worse every minute, right?
 
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