LOST Season 5 Discussion - 5/13: The Incident -

[quote name='Darkchaos91']I thought Jacob's friend said something to Jacob in the very beginning about looking for a "loophole" while looking at the blackrock. Don't remember everything he said.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

So
the fake Locke was that guy from the beginning masquerading as Locke some how. Maybe he is the smoke monster, who knows

That part of the episode was ok. But the 1977 stuff and the ending were pretty lame IMO.
 
[quote name='johnnypark']I'm quite bummed they killed
Juliette, of course depending on the aftermath of the bomb and how it effects future events, we may see her again.



Well, it seems pretty clear
that Locke isn't Locke, and the Smoke Monster has often appeared as dead people. That would explain why the smoke-Alex told Ben to do whatever "Locke" said. The fact that Jacob referred to it as his loophole makes me think that this is correct.

That, and it would also explain why 2 people were allowed to enter. If Locke really is dead, that would make Ben the leader again by default, right? Meaning he really was allowed an audience with Jacob, but was deceived into killing him by the Smoke Monster.
[/QUOTE]

does anyone know what the guy answer when they asked what stood in the shadow of the statue

i thnk he said pee wee herman and then they all did that werid dance they always did when someone said the mystery word LOL

also why did they dump they body out, like he couldnt looked at the body in the case LOL
 
I agree with JohnnyPark.
Locke has to be smokey. Like Christian, he has become a Persona of Jacob's. Who says Christian's body isnt out there somewhere, they just never found it. It WAS smokey who said to Ben to do whatever "Locke" says, so that could've set up Jacob's demise. However, I really did hate to see Jacob killed off so soon after being introduced. I wanna see what he can do, dammit!
 
Yeah, that does make a lot more sense. If there's a "good" (Jacob) there has to be an "evil" (smoke monster), given all the biblical references.

Also reminds me of the various black and white analogies from the first season. Rose and Bernard (black and white) are now looking to be the Adam and Eve symbols. Locke teaching Walt backgammon...a duel between black and white.
 
Smokey or no, it was the guy from the beginning. He said he wanted to kill Jacob and said he'd some day find a loophole. At the end Jacob said "I guess you found your loophole."
 
[quote name='crunchb3rry']Yeah, that does make a lot more sense. If there's a "good" (Jacob) there has to be an "evil" (smoke monster), given all the biblical references.

Also reminds me of the various black and white analogies from the first season. Rose and Bernard (black and white) are now looking to be the Adam and Eve symbols. Locke teaching Walt backgammon...a duel between black and white.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps Smokey IS evil. He does tend to kill people that dont do what he wants, after all.

Edit: And who's to say the guy at the beginning wasnt one of smokey's personas?
 
Probably why Locke wasn't killed by smokey way back when, it knew he had to survive for Jacob to fall later.
Kinda sucks Jacob is gone already...he's pretty much shit outta luck since the only doctor on the island got blowed up on his excellent adventure.
 
Further Evidence that Smokey is evil...

The painting of Smokey & the Anubis... Jacob is good, supposedly. He lives with Anubis (or whatever the statue was). The painting could've shown a quarrel between 2 enemies, Smokey & the statue, AKA Jacob.

IDK if you guys follow me, but thats the best I can explain. Maybe Jacob is the "white" of the show, & Smokey is the "Black".
 
[quote name='crunchb3rry']Yeah, that does make a lot more sense. If there's a "good" (Jacob) there has to be an "evil" (smoke monster), given all the biblical references.

Also reminds me of the various black and white analogies from the first season. Rose and Bernard (black and white) are now looking to be the Adam and Eve symbols. Locke teaching Walt backgammon...a duel between black and white.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget that dream sequence early on, when Walt's looking around the camp and sees Locke with a solid white eye and a solid black eye, just like the backgammon pieces.
 
Maybe they will bring Walt to the Island again to replace Jacob.

I wonder what Jacob wanted Illana to do.. Did he know that his friend was going to 'become' locke?
 
I knew "the list" was given to Ben by Jacob. That's why all of them from the list went back to the 70s. Whatever they did was Jacob's plan all along.
Probably why he didn't just explain shit to Ben instead of telling Ben he had a choice then subtly insulting Ben to force the outcome the way he wanted. Jacob knew what he was doing, to become a martyr. Ben made a snide remark about Moses, when that's what Ben seems to have been all along, like a combo of Moses and Judas. I think Jacob had Illana do what she did so the people outside know they were betrayed, rather than forsake Jacob as the doppleganger planned all along.
 
Geezz Smokey (though accurately descriptive) is such a terrible moniker for the "bad guy"

i just keep thinking about an overweight bear wearing a ridiculous hat
d834smokey-bear-only-you-posters.jpg
 
[quote name='billyrox']Geezz Smokey (though accurately descriptive) is such a terrible moniker for the "bad guy"
[/QUOTE]

I think Essau is a more appropriate name for him.

From Genesis 27
38 And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;
40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.
41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.
 
[quote name='Segasonic01']
Edit: And who's to say the guy at the beginning wasnt one of smokey's personas?[/QUOTE]

After more thought, that's almost definitely the case.

Think back to when Ben was being judged in the temple. The picture showed Smokey fighting the Anubis.

Since we found out that
Jacob lives in the Anubis statue
and the guy at the beginning was clearly his long time enemy it all seems to fit together.
 
So 'The Others' are playing both sides basically? How can this smoke monster be summoned? The ash bounded Jacob to the cabin because it was black? Maybe Jacob will become Lapidus, which is why he was brought with Illana? Jacob will now be able to take on different bodies like his friend has?

I also didn't pay attention to the beginning when it shows Jacob wearing a white shirt and his friend wearing a black shirt in the beginning.
 
[quote name='Darkchaos91']So 'The Others' are playing both sides basically? How can this smoke monster be summoned? The ash bounded Jacob to the cabin because it was black?
[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing the ash kept smokey out of the cabin. That or smokey/the guy from the beginning, was trapped in the cabin by the ash and got freed some how. Maybe by posing as Christian Shephard and getting Claire to let him out last season or something.

Maybe Jacob will become Lapidus, which is why he was brought with Illana? Jacob will now be able to take on different bodies like his friend has?
Click to expand...
Good thought! That would explain the "he may be a candidate" thing from earlier in the episode.

I also didn't pay attention to the beginning when it shows Jacob wearing a white shirt and his friend wearing a black shirt in the beginning.
Click to expand...
Yep, tying into the black and white theme that's run since season one with Locke and Walt playing backgammon etc.
 
That statue is not Anubis. Anubis would weigh the heart of the dead on a scale, with a feather. If the heart was lighter than a feather, they would go on to "Heaven" and if it was not, it would be thrown to an alligator type creature. I don't remember what it's name was, but that's what the statue was. It had alligator teeth and all that. It wasn't the face of anubis.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I'm really sad that
the real Locke is truly dead
even though I've been thinking it for a few episodes.[/QUOTE]
That does suck. Locke is awesome, & dying would me he really did not have a purpose. However, if the bomb worked, it wont matter anyways ;)
 
[quote name='KongaKing']That statue is not Anubis. Anubis would weigh the heart of the dead on a scale, with a feather. If the heart was lighter than a feather, they would go on to "Heaven" and if it was not, it would be thrown to an alligator type creature. I don't remember what it's name was, but that's what the statue was. It had alligator teeth and all that. It wasn't the face of anubis.[/QUOTE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit
 
[quote name='KongaKing']That statue is not Anubis. Anubis would weigh the heart of the dead on a scale, with a feather. If the heart was lighter than a feather, they would go on to "Heaven" and if it was not, it would be thrown to an alligator type creature. I don't remember what it's name was, but that's what the statue was. It had alligator teeth and all that. It wasn't the face of anubis.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='ChibiJosh']http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit[/QUOTE]


I'm pretty sure it's
Taweret

Also, the hieroglyphic is of Anubis.
 
Definitely Ammit.

The whole Jacob-Locke/Smokey conflict seems familiar - two powers unable to directly confront each other so they use influence over man to do their bidding. So Smokey/Locke's loophole was getting Ben to do what he couldn't. This also reminds me of Widmore and Ben off the island.

I'm pretty confident that was Smokey we saw in the beginning, too. Although, I question who he took the form from. I'm still left guessing what Jacob's purpose is for bringing these people to the island. Not just the Oceanic folks, but everyone - for instance, the Black Rock crew.

Thought Alpert turned out to be more of a choad than I'd previously thought. He'd always seemed so mysterious, but it turns out he's always just been some dude taking orders from others.

Gut-wrenching watching Juliet and Sawyer there in the end. That was a tearjerker, kind of like the scene at the beginning of the new Star Trek. I have to say, I'm curious to see exactly what setting off the hydrogen bomb will do. Someone called out the reversed "LOST" image at the end, and that's pretty indicative that they're going to completely flip the script again next season.

It was great seeing Bernard, Rose and Vincent alive and kicking in their own private paradise. Once in a while the producers give us something to feel good about, and it looks like the Bernard and Rose story will play out well for them.

It was cool seeing how Chang lost his arm, and I liked it when Miles yelled Dad before rushing to help him.

Was it just me, or were there hints speckled througout that episode that maybe Juliet was pregnant? She kept holding her stomach, and she had a weird exchange of glances with Bernard when he offered her some tea.

Braum seems like a douche, but maybe they did that to throw us off the scent and lead us to believe that this 3rd party was evil - something they were obviously trying to do with the dark clothing.

Any ideas on why Richard can't age. I know he said it's because of Jacob, but there's got to be some other explanation.

I'll be ineterested to hear more theories on the soot around Jacob's hut and exactly who Jacob is. I like the thought behind Jacob being a young Christian Shepherd (particularly since he avoided Christian in his appearance to Jack at the hospital), but I don't see enough resemblance for that one to happen.
 
[quote name='jaso']Definitely Ammit.
[/QUOTE]


I haven't heard this one, the glyph was definitely Anubis. Why do you think Ammit over Taweret?

I got the pregnant vibe too, but it's definitely dead, if Juliet is not. My first thought for next season was everyone waking up in the present, minus Juliet. A final conflict between good (humans, Walt) and fake Locke is most likely where season 6 is headed.

Since Daniel went nuts I've been saying that they can only create the past by trying to change it, so I am pretty sure they caused the incident. I would love it if the story surprised me and their efforts actually worked though.

The biggest problem with my theory is that Richard said he watched them all die.
 
So when Locke was shot and left for dead in the mass grave would it be Smokey or Jacob that healed him? Maybe Jacob tried to heal Locke as much as he could because he knew that Locke would lead to his demise. Jacob also tried to kill Ben because he knew Ben would be the fatal hand. Thoughts?

Also; watching the old Locke episodes and all the talk of reunion and family of the island always bugged me. Maybe that will be explained in this final season.
 
What. The. fuck.

I have said that I hoped the ending would be different from the "spoilers" I unwittingly learned about, which said that the gang from 1977 would be sent back to 2007 and encounter themselves aged 30 years (the "small group" of Others in the Temple), because I wanted to be surprised. I would've enjoyed that ending a lot more than the real one, however.

The episode as a whole was very good, but after seeing 2 excellent endings on the last 2 season finales, this one was just a soul crushing letdown. Despite how awesome the first hour and 56 minutes of the episode was, I'll be left with a bad taste in my mouth for 8 months due to the Locke reveal, Jacob death, and the fact that nothing was shown after Juliet detonated the bomb (and how the fuck did it not detonate after falling hundreds of feet?). 3 horrible decisions. I went from thinking the show couldn't serve up a "miss", to losing almost all faith in regards to a satisfying conclusion to what was until that point the greatest television story ever told.

The good: I loved the Jacob flashbacks. Juliet dying was an expected (but the manner in which it happened was a surprise) but heart-wrenching occurrence. Beautiful work on the part of Josh Holloway and Elizabeth Mitchell. I probably would have cried, but I had friends over, heh. Phil's death was awesome, though I wanted Sawyer to kill him. Jacob seemingly bringing Locke back to life was a great moment. I enjoyed seeing Rose, Bernard, and Vincent, though how could a cabin 5 miles from the barracks not be found over the course of 3 years? I also liked the painting of the golden retriever in Jacob's cabin. I don't think it had any real significance, and may have been a subtle wink and nod to the theory that Vincent is Jacob, a theory which I propagated.

Like I said, great episode, but the ending was horrible. Maybe there will be a great payoff next season, but the ending was akin to a cannonball to the nutsack. I just hope they can redeem themselves. No matter how good everything has been, people's strongest impression will most often be based on how things end. And tonight, they did not end well.
 
[quote name='Matt Young']

I enjoyed seeing Rose, Bernard, and Vincent, though how could a cabin 5 miles from the barracks not be found over the course of 3 years? [/QUOTE]

I think that Jin did find them. He understood their wishes and let them live there in peace. He was probably supplying them with all that Dharma food.
 
[quote name='Matt Young']Like I said, great episode, but the ending was horrible. Maybe there will be a great payoff next season, but the ending was akin to a cannonball to the nutsack. I just hope they can redeem themselves. No matter how good everything has been, people's strongest impression will most often be based on how things end. And tonight, they did not end well.[/QUOTE]

Just the ending? The whole episode was two hours of meandering that went absolutely nowhere. Honesty, what of substance actually happened between the first scene and the last ten minutes? All I remember is a rehash of about a dozen things we already knew happened and then a lot of waiting around for everyone to get to the point they've been going to for episodes. And what's our resolution when they get there? SEE YOU NEXT YEAR.

They didn't resolve one fucking thing. You'd think maybe after five years they'd finally throw the audience a fucking bone for once and actually conclude at least one plot thread in the finale. I'd love to just say they'll get to it next year but I've already fallen for that line one too many times. Honestly, they've been spinning their wheels with regards to the primary mytharc since the beginning of season 3. So rather than putting more thought into speculating which Egyptian God the statute represents than the writers do in crafting entire storylines I think I'd rather just be done with their crap.

fuck this show and its bulllshit.
 
[quote name='Magehart']So when Locke was shot and left for dead in the mass grave would it be Smokey or Jacob that healed him? Maybe Jacob tried to heal Locke as much as he could because he knew that Locke would lead to his demise. Jacob also tried to kill Ben because he knew Ben would be the fatal hand. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I've got thoughts on that buried in a spoiler tag. I don't think Jacob tried to kill Ben. Far from it, I think it was Jacob's plan that Ben kill him. The new group (Illanna, etc.) along with Alpert seem to be almost like Templars, hence the speaking in code so strangers know they are allies. I think Jacob told Illanna to come to the island with the purpose of exposing the false Locke, then in a Jesuslike fashion, he becomes a martyr and his people are more loyal than ever rather than bailing out and following the false Locke.
 
the big picture here guys is that
we have to wait around 8 months to find out what happens next!:whee::whee::whee::whee::whee:
 
I liked the episode, quite a bit actually. I'm kinda surprised people are upset about being strung along and not getting a satisfying conclusion at the end... I mean, that's been the show's modus operandi since day one. Plus I don't think they can reveal one of the mysteries without spoiling the rest, which is why they're holding off.

I've never been good at catching on to some of the finer details, but I feel like I caught a few things in last nights episode:
-If Jacob's "rival" is smokey, then I guess that the "beautiful" smoke monster Locke saw way back when was Jacob. This would explain alot about the smoke monster too, perhaps he was somehow forced into servitude for the others by Jacob. All of those moments where he "judged" people like Eko was so he could find someone to use for his "loophole".

-Using Lapidus as a replacement body for Jacob seems possible. This new gang of people are obviously out to protect him, and it wouldn't be surprising that they have a plan B in case they didn't stop fake locke in time.

-I'm kind of surprised no one mentioned this yet, but did they possibly reveal that the whole shebang revolves around aliens? I'm sure it's been discussed at length, especially with the whole egyptian motif but Jacob's last words of "they're coming", coupled with a quick glance of heiroglyphics showing people worshipping something in the sky(which was out of frame) seems like a dead giveaway.
 
[quote name='eastshore4']I liked the episode, quite a bit actually. I'm kinda surprised people are upset about being strung along and not getting a satisfying conclusion at the end... I mean, that's been the show's modus operandi since day one. Plus I don't think they can reveal one of the mysteries without spoiling the rest, which is why they're holding off.

I've never been good at catching on to some of the finer details, but I feel like I caught a few things in last nights episode:
-If Jacob's "rival" is smokey, then I guess that the "beautiful" smoke monster Locke saw way back when was Jacob. This would explain alot about the smoke monster too, perhaps he was somehow forced into servitude for the others by Jacob. All of those moments where he "judged" people like Eko was so he could find someone to use for his "loophole".

-Using Lapidus as a replacement body for Jacob seems possible. This new gang of people are obviously out to protect him, and it wouldn't be surprising that they have a plan B in case they didn't stop fake locke in time.

-I'm kind of surprised no one mentioned this yet, but did they possibly reveal that the whole shebang revolves around aliens? I'm sure it's been discussed at length, especially with the whole egyptian motif but Jacob's last words of "they're coming", coupled with a quick glance of heiroglyphics showing people worshipping something in the sky(which was out of frame) seems like a dead giveaway.
[/QUOTE]

People want to have their cake and eat it, too.
In the final season, what mythologies does Lost have to clear up?

I'm thinking... The numbers, Christian Shepard's real body, the Swan's Blast Door map... lots of others but I can't name them.

Not ruling anything out from Lost, but aliens do seem really far fetched, even for Lost
 
got to wonder if blowing up the island did nothing

when sun asked Richard Alpert if he knew her husband he said he watched them all die.... Meaning he was on another island when the bomb when off, knowing they were all Dead.

Cant remember was the statue complete back in the 70s or just the foot.... Maybe the bomb destoryed it.


there has to be a reason why they showed Juliet sister.... Please dont do the bullcrap saying that now Juliet can time jump cause she was next to the exposion just like desmond was a few seasons back..

who knows , maybe next season they all will be running around naked


Best part of the entire series was when Hugo why desmond was running around the jungle naked lol


Funny thing the tv guide said it would answer alot of the questions... It did not answer crap

another thing. THe guy that locke kicks into the fire at the end says

THEY ARE COMING

Who is they, the people carriing the metal box or Jack and the others.... (remember that other person was the one who went back to make jack and the rest come back to the island- not locke)

LOcke might of been the smoke monster and its Jack and the others fate to kill the smoke creature once and for all
 
Amazing finale. Brilliant. Now from what I have seen so far this is what I think is going on. Jacob and this other entity/person aka Smoke monster are both on this island for a hell of a long time. The island is their own experiment. Jacob believes that people have the ability to do right and learn from their mistakes and not repeat their pasts. To not revert to a corrupt human nature and destroy themselves by being the way they were in their past. This other person on the island believes that humans cannot change. They simply repeat the cycle they have always done. This is the timeless bet and debate between Jacob and this other person. When Jacob decides to bring the ship from the 1700s to the island, they are restarting this premise. That if we appoint a leader and people from a varied walk of life, what will they choose? Free will, or what they have always done?

The other person tells Jacob that he wants to kill him. Jacob knows this but he reminds him that those are the rules, he cant kill Jacob, and Jacob probably cannot kill him. This is my opinion, but they are both fallen angels(some say gods). Sent to this specific magical island as for a reason. They cannot kill each other because those rules were set by whomever or whatever sent them their. So they conduct their own experiment on humans. Jacob is the good angel, this other angel is bad/evil. Jacob chooses the leaders for his experiments at a young age. He chooses Widmore, Ben, Locke to be leaders in his quest to prove that people WON'T destroy themselves through greed and corruption. He makes Richard ageless and a advisor to guide these chosen leaders into their positions. The first piece is set. Then, Jacob brings in all the other people he wants to be part of proving this other person wrong (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hugo, Sayid etc).

This other person believes that humans will destroy themselves on the island. More then that, he wants to kill Jacob. He has abilities as does Jacob. He can transport himself in the form of smoke around the island. He can take human form. He is the smoke monster. The smoke monster is described as the "security system" to the island. He determines who has lead a life that is worthy of being able to stay on the island (Ecko, Locke).

When he first encounters Locke, he lets Locke go. Locke remarks how wonderful it was. The Smoke monster read Lockes life and saw that he was a good person, but also knew Jacob had chosen him to be the next leader. He sets his plans in motion, he has to assume the image of a Leader to get close enough to Jacob to kill him. He appears in the form of Christian Shepard to Locke. To continue to guide him and direct him towards his leadership position. He gets Locke all the way to the point of believing in the island and what it can do. However he needs to take over Lockes likeness. When he visited Locke and read him in season 1, he could replicate all of Locke because he knew everything about him. So he is able to use time aspect of the island to tell Alpert to get Locke to kill himself in order to save the island and get everything "corrected". This is a lie. With Locke dead, he finally can assume Lockes body and get to Jacob.

As people have clearly stated, Ben is just a pawn. When fake Locke sent Ben in the temple he converted into the smoke monster becoming Alex and threatens to kill Ben if he does not blindly follow who Ben believes to be Locke. Ben is now the tool used to kill Jacob. He makes Ben believe that Jacob is at fault for all of his pain, suffering and Jacob deserves to be killed. So last night, when Ben kills Jacob, he finally does the job that Smoke monster wanted. This in turn changes everything. Jacob believed that humans have free will and would not revert to destruction. Smoke monster manipulates Locke and Ben to not only prove his point that humans are destructive even when given free will, but to be able to kill Jacob. Lot of people on this board already know this and understand it, but its just interesting to find all the common points and angles for the five seasons of this show.
 
I don't think Locke was ever meant to be the leader. It might have just been fake Locke's doing.

It's really depressing when you think about it, because Locke spent the whole show convinced he was special. Now that everyone is going on magical adventures and facing the secrets of the island, he's dead.
 
The point about that there is a big fight or struggle between Jacob and the unnamed enemy, I think it's hard to realize while watching the episode, but it's definitely apparent. Just curious how the average LOST viewer would actually realize this. I wouldn't have known the beginning scene would play an integral part until actually reading others' comments. =p

I don't think this finale was that bad. Just knowing the backbone of the island (Jacob/other dude or smokey) was a pretty big reveal. It makes you look at the whole series differently to see what each side did to prove their point. I guess it was bad if you wanted to know the aftermath of the incident (pretty much everyone)... On a much more physical standpoint, the island is still mysterious with the whole electromagnetic crap and wtf happens to the Losties. Will the plane crash never happen? Does Desmond play some type of major role into all of this? Ugh.

At the end, for some reason I was expecting LOST: The Movie to pop up rather than the black on white image we got instead. ;[
 
I am pretty sure Miles was correct, I've been thinking it since Daniel came up with his ridiculous plan. They created exactly what they were trying to stop. The only question is when does Richard "watch them all die".
 
I don't think anyone has mentioned this but when Faraday's mother was about to walk into the Dharma house, Richard knocks her out. Jack asks him what he is doing and Richard says "protecting our leader".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top