Minimum Wage....Yeeeehaaaa!

Kirin Lemon said:
Won't somebody please think of the people who want to work for less!!
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Nobody WANTS to work for less, but as Mr Silk was pointing out, some people actually realize that they do not possess the skills or productivity to provide $15/hour to a business. They would be willing to work for what value they could produce until they either upped their education/skills or productivity. See the video that I posted at the start of the thread. Pelosi has unpaid interns who are willing to work in order to better their skills and knowledge base. I would prefer a state by state minimum wage if we are FORCED to have one. It makes more sense to be based on a region's cost of living versus a national standard.

Of course, all of this work talk is moot if we continue to expand our welfare state and make incentives for people NOT to work.

 
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Hey, here's a plan, let's increase the cost of paying employees.  Employers will just absorb the costs and won't do other things to cut costs that screw employees even more...

Right guys?  Right?  Uhhh... guys?

 
egofed said:
Nobody WANTS to work for less, but as Mr Silk was pointing out, some people actually realize that they do not possess the skills or productivity to provide $15/hour to a business. They would be willing to work for what value they could produce until they either upped their education/skills or productivity.
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Businesses don't exactly invest in their employees anymore nor have they ever really done so on a large scale. Someone that gets tuition reimbursement that works 9 to 5 is going to have a pretty hard time getting that college degree, ya dig?

See the video that I posted at the start of the thread. Pelosi has unpaid interns who are willing to work in order to better their skills and knowledge base. I would prefer a state by state minimum wage if we are FORCED to have one. It makes more sense to be based on a region's cost of living versus a national standard.
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:roll: Political internships, hell, unpaid internships in general, are taken up by kids that have parents that can afford to pay their living expenses and the realm of the upper class; not some kid from the ghetto that has to work their way up from nothing. Use your freaking brain.

And btw, minimum wage IS regulated by the states, but only a handful are tied to the thinnest facade of the cost of living whereas most states wouldn't even bat an eyelash at having no wage floor to relive the glory days of the industrial revolution. The reason why we have a minimum wage is because we all know that businesses can't be trusted to pay their lowest employees fairly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0




Of course, all of this work talk is moot if we continue to expand our welfare state and make incentives for people NOT to work.
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herpa derpa
 
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dohdough said:
Businesses don't exactly invest in their employees anymore nor have they ever really done so on a large scale. Someone that gets tuition reimbursement that works 9 to 5 is going to have a pretty hard time getting that college degree, ya dig?

:roll: Political internships, hell, unpaid internships in general, are taken up by kids that have parents that can afford to pay their living expenses and the realm of the upper class; not some kid from the ghetto that has to work their way up from nothing. Use your freaking brain.

And btw, minimum wage IS regulated by the states, but only a handful are tied to the thinnest facade of the cost of living whereas most states wouldn't even bat an eyelash at having no wage floor to relive the glory days of the industrial revolution. The reason why we have a minimum wage is because we all know that businesses can't be trusted to pay their lowest employees fairly.
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My previous employer has paid for education of some of our staff including my manager. We were a pretty small company, now imagine what Google or Facebook do for their employees.

A few years back I worked as an intern and supported myself by working 2 jobs. I did not see a dime from my parents. If these kids from ghettos can't work their way up then they only have themselves to blame.

That might have been the case if it was 1800s. I have a hard time believing that it would happen in modern America. I do have a hard time believing that you trust the government so much especially after everything that happened in the last decade.

 
dohdough said:
Businesses don't exactly invest in their employees anymore nor have they ever really done so on a large scale. Someone that gets tuition reimbursement that works 9 to 5 is going to have a pretty hard time getting that college degree, ya dig?

:roll: Political internships, hell, unpaid internships in general, are taken up by kids that have parents that can afford to pay their living expenses and the realm of the upper class; not some kid from the ghetto that has to work their way up from nothing. Use your freaking brain.

And btw, minimum wage IS regulated by the states, but only a handful are tied to the thinnest facade of the cost of living whereas most states wouldn't even bat an eyelash at having no wage floor to relive the glory days of the industrial revolution. The reason why we have a minimum wage is because we all know that businesses can't be trusted to pay their lowest employees fairly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0




herpa derpa
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A boss doesn't owe anything other than an accepted wage agreed upon by the worker, Doh. You have to invest in yourself. Having the gov't force everyone else to make your life better is BS. Use your freaking brain....

And minimum wage is NOT regulated by the states as long as big daddy federal gov't steps in to enforce a limit. Ask any weed shop in California, Colorado, etc that has been raided by the FEDERAL gov't.

Businesses pay their employees by the value they produce and the supply of workers available to do that job. Sounds fair? Stocking store shelves or cleaning toilets are important jobs, but can be done by almost anyone. Running a code on your grandma and successfully reviving her is a bit more complicated and specialized. Would you deem it fair if both of these employees received the same pay?

Should sports stars, actors, singers, and celebrities be paid in the millions and not CEOs?

 
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mrsilkunderwear said:
My previous employer has paid for education of some of our staff including my manager. We were a pretty small company, now imagine what Google or Facebook do for their employees.
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Let me use a simplistic idiom that even YOU might be able to understand: exceptions are not the rule.

A few years back I worked as an intern and supported myself by working 2 jobs. I did not see a dime from my parents. If these kids from ghettos can't work their way up then they only have themselves to blame.
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Yeah, if Usain Bolt can run so fast, why can't everyone, amirite?

That might have been the case if it was 1800s. I have a hard time believing that it would happen in modern America. I do have a hard time believing that you trust the government so much especially after everything that happened in the last decade.
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1800's??? Are you dense? Businesses, especially in food service, are still getting away with it. There are articles in the local paper every few months about workers getting stiffed by their employers to the tune of thousands of dollars...EACH. You know who gets them their money? The government.

Unlike you, I don't see government through the ideological lens that it can only do wrong as if it's some monolithic entity.


egofed said:
A boss doesn't owe anything other than an accepted wage agreed upon by the worker, Doh. You have to invest in yourself. Having the gov't force everyone else to make your life better is BS. Use your freaking brain....
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LOLZ...yeah...coming from someone that works for the fire department, that's RICH. Second generation public employee paid to make people's lives better wants the government to stop making people's lives better.

And minimum wage is NOT regulated by the states as long as big daddy federal gov't steps in to enforce a limit. Ask any weed shop in California, Colorado, etc that has been raided by the FEDERAL gov't.

Businesses pay their employees by the value they produce and the supply of workers available to do that job. Sounds fair? Stocking store shelves or cleaning toilets are important jobs, but can be done by almost anyone. Running a code on your grandma and successfully reviving her is a bit more complicated and specialized. Would you deem it fair if both of these employees received the same pay?
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And what happens when a prison rents out labor at pennies to the dollar or when there's a surplus of labor? Any shithead can do the work, you say? Well why NOT pay people $1 an hour if an employer has the market cornered? If that's what the labor market has to accept because there's no other opportunities, then what? Can't exactly move if you're making $1 an hour. Go to school? Well that costs money too and while you're racking up all those hours just to survive, when is there really time for school?

Fire fighters don't really "produce" any value. Is fire fighting profitable? How much value is there if there isn't a profit to be made? Sounds more like you just like getting government handouts to me! Or how about the military or the police? What do they produce? It's not like they can do an IPO. According to your own convoluted logic and understanding of "value," your own profession is useless. Using your logic, who gives a shit if grandma codes when she probably isn't producing anything anyways. Who needs janitors when you can clean your own damn toilets!

Should sports stars, actors, singers, and celebrities be paid in the millions and not CEOs?
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Always looking at the small picture eh? A-Rod made over $100 mil. How much do you think MLB made off him? Do you think he was paid even half the value that he produced? I'm a bean counter. Do I make or sell a product on the market that brings in anything close to what it costs to employ me? I guess my boss is just throwing money away when he can just count those damn beans himself!
 
@mrsilk, have you ever spent time in the ghetto? Or even live in a big urban environment to comprehend how hard it really is. I'm not trying to make excuses for anybody, individuals are capable of anything but when your already 50 paces behind everybody else the task does seem overwhelming.

 
It's amazing how short sighted people can be.

Raising minimum wage to $15/hr would be DEVASTATING to so many physical good industries. You take a business like McDonald's, where I'm guessing the majority of its employees outside of corporate employees and franchise owners make much less then $15 and mandate that now everyone must make $15/hr and what do you think that does to the cost of their goods?

And it's not just because they must pay their employees more... it's because the farms where they get their beef must pay the employees more and the facilities that process the beef must pay their employees more and the distribution channels (packaging, truck drivers, etc.) must pay their employees more and you're looking at a $5 menu instead of a $1 menu.

And that goes for just about all food service industries as well as super markets.

The federal government has no business waiving a magic wand and declaring that on a certain date minimum wage should  be raised from $X to $Y where if the difference between the two is more then 10% - 20%.

They should have done small incremental increases every 5-10 years to account for inflation and see what effect it had on the overall economy / workforce before ever considering something as outlandish as raising it by 100%. 

What the federal government should be doing is offering incentives to companies that pay its employees a certain amount or give their employees incentives to pursue educational advancement.

I mean college tuition already increases each and every year... what do you think would happen to tuition across the country if now the people that actually make colleges and universities run (ground crew, maintenance, food servers, work study) started making $5-$8/hr more?

And as if the cost of gas isn't already high enough....

Besides we could pay people millions of dollars and they'd still end up broke (Vince Young, Allen Iverson, Mike Tyson.... [seeing a trend?]). It all boils down to education and sound judgement. People that have it can live comfortably off $10/hr and people that don't will end up bankrupt even if they pull in 20 million a year.

 
Funny - all this "should" talk and yet, only one person has even attempted to talk about the actual numbers.  Some folks would rather go back to their old MO of making personal attacks because they know they have absolutely nothing real to back up their position.

I'll just wait here while someone brings some kind of evidence that raising the minimum wage helps the overall poverty level.  I won't hold my breath.

 
It's been funny to see arguments devolve to "we should pay everybody lots of money, they'll get out of poverty" vs. "if we pay everybody lots of money, that will include black people and they're lazy!" It's basically utiopia vs. overt racism.

I don't have a horse in this race.

 
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skiizim said:
@mrsilk, have you ever spent time in the ghetto? Or even live in a big urban environment to comprehend how hard it really is. I'm not trying to make excuses for anybody, individuals are capable of anything but when your already 50 paces behind everybody else the task does seem overwhelming.
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I lived in Bronx and Brooklyn when I first moved to this country. When my family first immigrated to this country, we only had each other and a $1000 to our name. How many paces would you say I was behind? I am not saying it was easy getting to where I am today but that is life and people should only count on themselves. Obviously it would be great to get help from others but it should be out of want and not force.

dohdough said:
Let me use a simplistic idiom that even YOU might be able to understand: exceptions are not the rule.
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Just because not every employer is willing to help their employee does not mean we should force them nor expect a government handout.

Yeah, if Usain Bolt can run so fast, why can't everyone, amirite?
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Well I guess, that is the government decides to built robot legs for everyone. Obviously everyone has a right to good robot legs.

1800's??? Are you dense? Businesses, especially in food service, are still getting away with it. There are articles in the local paper every few months about workers getting stiffed by their employers to the tune of thousands of dollars...EACH. You know who gets them their money? The government
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It happens but not as often as you would think. Out of curiosity how many of these people are illegal? The reason for my question is because the only time I have heard of this happening on purpose is when the employee can be pushed around due to their status.

Unlike you, I don't see government through the ideological lens that it can only do wrong as if it's some monolithic entity.
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Oh my you still do not understand what a libertarian is. I want the government to exist, I am not an anarchist.

 
Why? Because then nobody would challenge your pretty little gov't run utopian ideology? I just ask you to substantiate a claim of racism that you made against me. I know this is just a goofy message board, but I still think that you would have enough character to back up a statement that you make about someone.

 
egofed said:
Why? Because then nobody would challenge your pretty little gov't run utopian ideology? I just ask you to substantiate a claim of racism that you made against me. I know this is just a goofy message board, but I still think that you would have enough character to back up a statement that you make about someone.
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It's okay. Clearly when you give the unskilled and uneducated (the bulk of those that work minimum wage jobs) more money they do wise things like invest it and create long term wealth. This is how things work. You can see this in all the examples of professional athletes and lottery winners who had nothing and then took their new found riches and became wealthy...

...wait a minute...

I wouldn't waste your time engaging Msut though. He likes to employ the "I don't have anything worthwhile to contribute so I'll deflect with the racism card" because clearly people like you and I only think that blacks and browns and yellows are poor and uneducated. Yep. I live in a state that is 95% plus white and it's that goddamn 5% that just screws everything up for everyone.

Their aren't any white welfare recipients in Maine. Not a single one.......

 
dohdough said:
Let me use a simplistic idiom that even YOU might be able to understand: exceptions are not the rule.

Yeah, if Usain Bolt can run so fast, why can't everyone, amirite?

1800's??? Are you dense? Businesses, especially in food service, are still getting away with it. There are articles in the local paper every few months about workers getting stiffed by their employers to the tune of thousands of dollars...EACH. You know who gets them their money? The government.

Unlike you, I don't see government through the ideological lens that it can only do wrong as if it's some monolithic entity.


LOLZ...yeah...coming from someone that works for the fire department, that's RICH. Second generation public employee paid to make people's lives better wants the government to stop making people's lives better.


And what happens when a prison rents out labor at pennies to the dollar or when there's a surplus of labor? Any shithead can do the work, you say? Well why NOT pay people $1 an hour if an employer has the market cornered? If that's what the labor market has to accept because there's no other opportunities, then what? Can't exactly move if you're making $1 an hour. Go to school? Well that costs money too and while you're racking up all those hours just to survive, when is there really time for school?

Fire fighters don't really "produce" any value. Is fire fighting profitable? How much value is there if there isn't a profit to be made? Sounds more like you just like getting government handouts to me! Or how about the military or the police? What do they produce? It's not like they can do an IPO. According to your own convoluted logic and understanding of "value," your own profession is useless. Using your logic, who gives a shit if grandma codes when she probably isn't producing anything anyways. Who needs janitors when you can clean your own damn toilets!

Always looking at the small picture eh? A-Rod made over $100 mil. How much do you think MLB made off him? Do you think he was paid even half the value that he produced? I'm a bean counter. Do I make or sell a product on the market that brings in anything close to what it costs to employ me? I guess my boss is just throwing money away when he can just count those damn beans himself!
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1. You are an idiot. :wave:

2. Value is derived from a good or service. Fire prevention, protection, and suppression are a service equated with value. Would businesses and citizens desire to live in and pay taxes to a city without police and fire protection? My dept also handles the EMS side for the city. Yep, no value there..... ;)

3.A-Rod is paid at what his employer sees as his value. A-Rod could quit and start his own baseball league if he wanted. The employer takes on all the financial and legal risks. If a woman has a right to choose to end a life, then why should an employer not have the right to offer any wage he chooses?

4.Free time is value also. Your boss values not having to count his own beans so he pays you. Its not rocket science, bro.

5. I want gov't to make people's lives better, not enforce a tyrannical rule over every aspect of personal and business life.

 
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egofed said:
3.A-Rod is paid at what his employer sees as his value. A-Rod could quit and start his own baseball league if he wanted. The employer takes on all the financial and legal risks. If a woman has a right to choose to end a life, then why should an employer not have the right to offer any wage he chooses?
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Baseball and every major sport in the US is subject to a collective bargaining agreement which assures a salary floor ie minimum wage. However, the analogy is moot as athletes are highly skilled individuals who are the equivalent of CEOs. Furthermore they are represented by a labor union as well as an agent who has their best financial interest in mind. Their contracts are negotiated at arm's length (equal footing). So one could rightly argue that athletes are in fact a labor group which doesn't need all the gov't protection and oversight that they currently get because their interest are so well protected.

All this talk about unions gets us back to that old age conundrum. Do you allow all unskilled laborers to unionize and then in turn abolish minimum wage? That way these individuals have the necessary bargaining power to negotiate with their employer on equal footing. The way the system currently operates all the bargaining power lies with the business be it small or large.

 
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egofed said:
Why? Because then nobody would challenge your pretty little gov't run utopian ideology?
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What does that even mean? Personally I would love it if you "challenged" me. All you ever have are these rambling nonsensical screeds you presumably copy and paste from somewhere and anecdotes that you are probably just making up.

 
UncleBob said:
Aren't they allowed to unionize now?
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Technically you are correct but companies such as McDonald's, Walmart and even Amazon make it nearly impossible to unionize. In 2000 when Amazon call center employees (customer service) unionized, Amazon responded by closing down the call center. This year when their maintenance and electrical crew tried to unionize they hired a law firm that specializes in busting up unions. Essentially low wage employees face an uphill battle of having to organize industry wide rather than location by location.

That said, I'm not a fan of unions in today's marketplace because they are too slow to react to a rapidly changing economy and force employees to always negotiate from a perspective of the greater good rather than what's best for his or her bottom line.

 
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Msut77 said:
What does that even mean? Personally I would love it if you "challenged" me. All you ever have are these rambling nonsensical screeds you presumably copy and paste from somewhere and anecdotes that you are probably just making up.
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Accept this challenge: What did I say that made you call me a racist? Are you not understanding the simple question? Kind of like what is the highest percentage you would find acceptable for the gov't to take in a free citizen's income. Any answer there? You come off as a buffoon totally playing a liberal race card when someone disagrees with you.

 
kill3r7 said:
Baseball and every major sport in the US is subject to a collective bargaining agreement which assures a salary floor ie minimum wage. However, the analogy is moot as athletes are highly skilled individuals who are the equivalent of CEOs. Furthermore they are represented by a labor union as well as an agent who has their best financial interest in mind. Their contracts are negotiated at arm's length (equal footing). So one could rightly argue that athletes are in fact a labor group which doesn't need all the gov't protection and oversight that they currently get because their interest are so well protected.

All this talk about unions gets us back to that old age conundrum. Do you allow all unskilled laborers to unionize and then in turn abolish minimum wage? That way these individuals have the necessary bargaining power to negotiate with their employer on equal footing. The way the system currently operates all the bargaining power lies with the business be it small or large.
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My intention with that question was to see if anyone on here is in favor of a MAXIMUM wage. All the current talk of income inequality seems to only villianize CEO's, not other super wealthy people who do not create whole industries that employ people. I am not anti -union to the point of abolishing them, I am against a forced payment of dues collected so that a free person can work in a given field. I am also against union contracts that make firing an incompetent or even criminal employee very difficult if not impossible. See "Waiting for Superman" for a good example. I think many people here have the old moustache twirling, evil master criminal vision projected in their head as soon as the word "boss" is mentioned. Stereotyping is bad, right? :wall: Slavery and indentured servitude are illegal and passé. No one should legally be forcing a person to work for them. Having the gov't step into every interaction between people is not what I prefer.
 
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egofed said:
My intention with that question was to see if anyone on here is in favor of a MAXIMUM wage. All the current talk of income inequality seems to only villianize CEO's, not other super wealthy people who do not create whole industries that employ people. I am not anti -union to the point of abolishing them, I am against a forced payment of dues collected so that a free person can work in a given field. I am also against union contracts that make firing an incompetent or even criminal employee very difficult if not impossible. See "Waiting for Superman" for a good example. I think many people here have the old moustache twirling, evil master criminal vision projected in their head as soon as the word "boss" is mentioned. Stereotyping is bad, right? :wall: Slavery and indentured servitude are illegal and passé. No one should legally be forcing a person to work for them. Having the gov't step into every interaction people free people is not what I prefer.
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There would be no need for government intervention if the market self corrected. I know I'm being a bit naive in making that statement and I'm well aware there is an election coming up but at the crux of the issue is whether or not the government needs to step in. You are okay with the status quo while others think these folks deserve a bit more.

Speaking of unions here's an interesting tidbit. Basically Germany pays their car workers twice as much as they pay their American counterparts. The same can be said about Ikea and many other companies which operate overseas (unionized) vs US.

 
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egofed said:
Silk, I would suggest you refrain from answering any questions until Msutt backs up his racist claims.
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Silk is curiously silent, I figure English not being his first language would explain a lot for his posts.

Do you happen to remember when silk referred to Obama as Hussein the Arab?

 
Msut77 said:
Silk is curiously silent, I figure English not being his first language would explain a lot for his posts.

Do you happen to remember when silk referred to Obama as Hussein the Arab?
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Oh the ignorance. You just quoted Ego where he asks you to back the racist claims, yet you persist to continue personal the attacks. I am glad you got this far in life, its a real miracle.

 
So calling someone an Arab  (who isn't) is what exactly?

As for personal attacks, making vague allusions to "gov't run utopian ideology?" that isn't based on anything i said isn't an attack?

 
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Msut77 said:
So calling someone an Arab (who isn't) is what exactly?

As for personal attacks, making vague allusions to "gov't run utopian ideology?" that isn't based on anything i said isn't an attack?
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Ever heard of sarcasm?

Personal attacks:

Silk is curiously silent, I figure English not being his first language would explain a lot for his posts.
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I meant ego and silk. I meant they pretend not to be racists and every once in a while their true colors show.
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You know I've gone through some of our previous posting history and I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

 
*Gulp-as I appear to take silk and ego's side, Msut, you really haven't contributed much to the thread other than one liners debating what is sarcastic or not.

Anyhoo, living in Oregon, the minimum wage is just over $9/hr. I actually didn't realize that federal is $7.xx. If states consider cost of living in the specific area, then you would hope more expensive states like CA, NY, HI would all have higher minimum wages. I don't know if that's true or not. IMO, $7 is pretty low, but I don't know how many states only observe the federal minimum.

What the hell-here's the chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages

Wow, Oregon and Washington are the two highest in the country. Did not know that. Granted neither state is a big manufacturing destination, it's interesting to see that our min. wages are the highest. Not even that expensive of a state to live in.

 
Msut77 said:
zirk,

You are usually one of the good ones but if there was something to respond to in this thread I would.
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Nah, I appreciate that, and I think the same of you, but in this thread you are responding, just not with anything of value really. That's the part that surprises me. I usually get something out of your replies even if I disagree with it. The two buffoons who have taken the thread to lulz-worthy racist levels are obviously attention-seeking, while trying to sell it as actual discourse.

 
berzirk said:
Nah, I appreciate that, and I think the same of you, but in this thread you are responding, just not with anything of value really. That's the part that surprises me. I usually get something out of your replies even if I disagree with it. The two buffoons who have taken the thread to lulz-worthy racist levels are obviously attention-seeking, while trying to sell it as actual discourse.
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Berzirk, maybe you can tell me what comments I have made in this thread that can be construed as racist?
 
I made a reference to the mcdonalds min. wage "budget" a while back that no one chose to engage. that might have been fruitful.

 
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