Mos Def being force fed like Gitmo detainees

[jputahraptor]

ou ignore the Geneva conventions which the terrorists don't subscribe to.

Prepare to be educated: "The Geneva Conventions are multilateral, international treaties. This means that they bind only those nation-states that have signed, ratified, and deposited their ratification with the United Nations"

-http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/exclusive-to-al-jazeera/the-geneva-conventions/the-geneva-conventions-to-whom-do-the-conventions-apply/615/

Thank you teacher, the point is a set of guidelines exists to follow for human rights in war. So America is the big bad but follows them. Terrorists use violence on anyone, enemy or civilian, and because they are not a country they do not follow these guidelines. These are good guidelines after all, right?

The point is that a ragtag group of militants killed thousands of civilians on 9/11 and have tried over and over since then.

OK, get ready for MIND:BLOWN...maybe we should try to figure out why they hate us and want to kill us? Maybe they're not fond of our foreign policy which oppresses many third world, specifically Muslim and Arab countries. Maybe it's the undying support for Israel, who has a worse human rights record than nearly any other country of the past 50 years. Maybe they don't care for their countries to be invaded by external powers, so their natural resources can be exported. It could be a lot of things. One thing it is not...they don't hate us for our freedoms. If any of your news sources tell you that, turn them off and read a book instead, because that specific channel is filled with morons.

I heard that same logic about the Bostom bombers, that they felt out of place and unloved. Who is they? This isn't a country remember, we established that these terrorists are independent. These are a small group that are opposing us. So did they organize and try to work something out? I am all for talking, compromises, did they try that. Because there have been disagreements between countries and sometimes things are handled in a civil way. But if they decided they needed to get our attention through violent means than their "demands" are kinda going on the back burner. Violence is usually a last resort, I must have missed Al-Queda at the UN meetings, I guess since they are a splinter group they didn't get a desk. While I get that we have done some bad things, I think the response was no different than a country attacking us, lobbing a few missles at us. We responded with force, there was no peaceful attempt, they don't like us working with Israel, to bad. I don't recall leading up to 9/11, the US being called out by the UN or any country for breaking any laws, yet I do recall us working with the UN after 9/11.

I guess they also don't like Spain or the UK, or Istanbul, or any of the other countries they attack. They are in Pakistan, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, damn a lot of countries must be bastards like us and they, hate HATE Israel, Well I guess other countries ed up to, either they are just as bad as us, or we are dealing with an irrational threat that kills out of hate, or maybe they don't like whites, who know, who cares. Have they ever wanted to make demands, to have us leave in exchange for peace?

Those captured are either soldiers of Al-Queda or are working with them and have intelligence. You can't excuse what one side does to their hostages because of the age, organizational structure, philosophy or some other reasoning

Do tell...what's a "soldier" of al Qaeda. What does their uniform look like? What gets issued? Who's their chain of command? What international organizations do they belong to.

Let me respond with a question, What did the Confederate Army of the South's uniform look like, were they issued or was their no standard? Guess they weren't soldiers, they were what then?

Of course you can hold to a different standard what one side does. That's what the Geneva Convention is all about. You should expect better from organized world superpowers than you do from...Belize. I expect better global actions from American, than I do Belize. We have the power, the resources, and the ability to harm the world far greater than Belize. If that's true with respect to Belize, then what if we start comparing to a band of terrorists who live in various regions around the world, inside of other countries?

There's a difference between what you can expect of a country in terms of power, resources etc, and treatment of prisoners, which is all my original post was about. You are taking this in a completely different direction. Excusing a side because of it's social or economic status in regards to treatment of POW"S is foolish. You are basically giving them a pass to take a soldier or civilian hostage and executing them for no logical reason as acceptable. You are advocating murder as acceptable because of a countries status as a world power. That speaks volumes of your "intelligence" you seem so proud of. You treat them like children who don't know any better than adults who are serial killers.

even though the US isn't actively engaged in what can be called terrorism, and is working with the governments of these countries in order to eliminate the threat.

That's open for ENORMOUS debate, and one that frankly, I don't think you have the background to be able to intelligently go in to. I would suggest that flying drones over neighborhoods in Yemen and killing civilians as collateral damage is outright terrorism. I would suggest that invading countries on falsified charges (WMDs) is terrorism. Remind me when and where I said God Bless Al Qaeda? I simply said that I expect less from them, than I do the US.

The US as terrorists belongs in its own thread. I am aware of what we do, I've said numerous times I am against drone strikes, something this administration continues to this day. Everything you bring up in that statement is valid, still your "intelligent" argument fails to reason how "I expect less from them" means you excuse them for the human rights violations they've done to hostages And going back to the video in the OP, how you seem more outraged at our response to dying prisoners vs. your casual attitude and accountability to nations or groups that murder civilians.

 

[willardhaven]

The quotes in this thread are all messed up. Damned new site.

 

[berzirk]

Willard-indeed. I despise it. I also found that there is a limit on how many quotes you can insert in a post. Bleh. Makes replying a chore.

-Jpuh-

Initially you were all bent that "al Qaeda" as though they were some multinational, organized group, rather than a collection of terrorists who likely don't even communicate with one another, wasn't following the Geneva Convention. When I pointed out to you that they are not a signatory to it, and therefore that point is relevant you basically reply with a "yah...umm...but."

The "Confederacah" overwhelmingly did have localized uniforms based on the materials that were at their disposal, but they were also trying to secede from the United States. Again with the false equivalencies my man.

You bringing up the Boston guys is exactly my point. That's what the "enemy" overwhelmingly is. Scattered groups (or individuals) of a handful of dudes that want to do harm. Why can't we charge these people with a crime or release them?

When you mention reasons why the US may be disliked, and the UN together in the same sentence, allow me to offer a possible reason why the International community might be a little annoyed by double standards. RE: United Nations Security Council:

"United States has used the veto on 82 occasions between 1946 and 2007; and since 1972, it has used its veto power more than any other permanent member"

"Since that time, it has become by far the most frequent user of the veto, mainly on resolutions criticizing Israel; since 2002 the Negroponte doctrine has been applied for the use of a veto on resolutions relating to the ongoing Israel-Palestinian conflict. This has been a constant cause of friction between the General Assembly and the Security Council. On 18 February 2011, the Obama administration vetoed resolutions condemning Israeli settlements."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power

So apparently UN resolutions are good, as long as the US doesn't issue the lone veto. Are you getting any hints on why the rest of the world considers us hypocrites?

You wrote: "we are dealing with an irrational threat that kills out of hate, or maybe they don't like whites, who know, who cares"

-And this is why you don't have an intelligent opinion on the topic. If you're constantly getting sick, would you prefer the doctor just give you whatever medicine for that illness, or would you prefer he look at root causes to improve your overall health? Finding out WHY people hate us so much, and WHY they are willing to kill us, kill themselves, and take other extreme actions is precisely how you resolve a conflict. Do you honestly mean it when you say "who know, who cares"? That couldn't be a less intelligent response. I want to know, and I do care. It allows us to be real in looking at our policies and figure out why over the past 20-30 years have we been so despised by such a large number of countries and groups.

Since you can't get your brain wrapped around why we should expect less of a group of scattered terrorists, compared to a country, a super-power at that, maybe I can try an analogy. It's not a complicated concept, but maybe this will work.

Let's say you put together a pretty good team of pickup basketball players. All of them are solid, maybe a couple played D1 ball in college at various schools. You decide to play against an NBA team. I expect them to be crushed, so if they only lose by 20 instead of 80, that's considered a bit of a moral victory. Nobody thought you'd win, but you kept it closer than expected.

I expect the organized team to perform better, behave better than the pickup squad, and show us all the right way to play the game. Who wouldn't compared to a bunch of weekend warriors playing pickup ball? Well, who wouldn't besides you?

 

[joeboosauce]

Thank you Willard for pointing that out to me. My crappy laptop has the white background for some reason. I'll repost my reply to JOEBOOSAUCE here (original post #34) and hope that shows up, I don't know if quoting was the problem, send me a PM or reply to let me know, thanks again.

Let's start off by making sure this quote that you said in quotes like it was me who said it... "Of course the sandniggers have WMDs. All darkies are evil and trying to constantly kill us." was never said by me nor is there anything that I've said that hinted or implied that view. In fact, it sounds like that is your view of how I or other conservatives or whites think. I'll dismiss the stupidity because I know the decision to go to war was voted on by an elected congress with I assume actionable intelligence and the reason to go to war had something to do with 9/11, terrorism, and possible WMD's and was not just somebody waking up one day and deciding to kill "darkies". I also made it pretty clear that I was never for any of these wars or GITMO and being only a teenager at the time who couldn't even vote in the 2000 election, don't see how I'm being lumped in with all conservatives or that I got off on us declaring war on "brown people". Believe it or not, conservatives can think for themselves and we are not a hive mind who all think one way, but thanks for generalizing, you are even less credible than you were if that is possible. Actually you must know or be Finger Shocker because I couldn't believe there could be more than one person on this site who could assume and lump millions of people together quite like he could.

You quote me twice in your post and it doesn't seem to catch me contradicting myself. What I said about Pearl was obviously a sarcastic response to a video which simplifys things and doesn't take into account what the prisoners did to get there. Do you know what they are being accused of or where they were caught because it sounds like you don't believe they did anything wrong so do tell. The two are connected in that they were both taken prisoner but one was killed for being a Jewish American (not even a soldier) while others are intentionally undertaking a hunger strike. Is that so hard to distinguish? Now why don't you explain how that reveals my "racist underpinnings" because the races are irrelevant if one side abuses and kills its prisoners and the other has to decide whether to force feed or let their prisoners die. Tell me where race even begins to play into this (and I ignored him being Jewish the first time). I also know that Obama can do something about Gitmo and has sat on his hands, so tell me how or where I'm a racist based on my original post. If anything, it seems like you are race baiting me and labeling me a racist based on your own racist views of conservatives or whites. And tell me how Democrats who have continued these wars since Obama took office are not racist for continuing these conflicts and not rectifying or undoing what those darn racist conservatives did. Sound like according to what you say, they are just as guilty?

Jupraptor,

1. You obviously don't know what the hell racism is.

"I assume actionable intelligence and the reason to go to war had something to do with 9/11, terrorism, and possible WMD's and was not just somebody waking up one day and deciding to kill "darkies"."

You have an infantile view of it which seems like "racism only exists when people use slurs, their is no such thing as internalizing ideas and of course not racism. How can you claim such ignorance to the fact that all the reasons to invade a SOVEREIGN NATION you mention were fabrications? The fact you and your ilk just lap it up like obedient dogs demonstrates the racial hatred that lies under the surface of Americans. A sane and unbiased person would not just simply accept such outright lies to commit the greatest war crime (per this itty bitty thing called int'l law). Why do racist white so easily believe that a black man is a criminal? Why do the same believe that brown men are the greatest threat and the greatest perpetrators of terrorism (when in fact they are not even according the official US definitions of terrorism). Because the leadership knows how to appeal to their minions.

2. ASS-umption central! Obama is a racist and perpetuates racist wars as you rightly point out!

Try to reflect on your views so you don't at least wear your bias on your sleeve. I don't lap up this Dem/Repub bullshit dichotomy. Their leaders are all racist neoliberal imperialists.

3. "I couldn't believe there could be more than one person on this site who could assume and lump millions of people together quite like he could. "

Hey ass-pirate, YOU are the one who supports blanket war against Muslims because you believe the lies your white leadership shoves into your mouth. And you do it obediently, lapping it up so wholeheartily! Good dog!

4. And as pointed out by others above, Daniel Pearl has nothing to do with Gitmo. The question really is WHY did you pick that example when there are PLENTY of other examples by NON-MUSLIMS that would be more applicable? See, it's your f-ing racist bias. You dumb ignorant religious zealot. The world pays for the ignorance of Americans such as yourself. Go learn YOUR OWN HISTORY. And its not in ancient scraps of paper about nonsense fairy tales.

 

[joeboosauce]

a

 

[jputahraptor]

Jupraptor,

1. You obviously don't know what the hell racism is.

"I assume actionable intelligence and the reason to go to war had something to do with 9/11, terrorism, and possible WMD's and was not just somebody waking up one day and deciding to kill "darkies"."

You have an infantile view of it which seems like "racism only exists when people use slurs, their is no such thing as internalizing ideas and of course not racism. How can you claim such ignorance to the fact that all the reasons to invade a SOVEREIGN NATION you mention were fabrications? The fact you and your ilk just lap it up like obedient dogs demonstrates the racial hatred that lies under the surface of Americans. A sane and unbiased person would not just simply accept such outright lies to commit the greatest war crime (per this itty bitty thing called int'l law). Why do racist white so easily believe that a black man is a criminal? Why do the same believe that brown men are the greatest threat and the greatest perpetrators of terrorism (when in fact they are not even according the official US definitions of terrorism). Because the leadership knows how to appeal to their minions.

2. ASS-umption central! Obama is a racist and perpetuates racist wars as you rightly point out!

Try to reflect on your views so you don't at least wear your bias on your sleeve. I don't lap up this Dem/Repub bullshit dichotomy. Their leaders are all racist neoliberal imperialists.

3. "I couldn't believe there could be more than one person on this site who could assume and lump millions of people together quite like he could. "

Hey ass-pirate, YOU are the one who supports blanket war against Muslims because you believe the lies your white leadership shoves into your mouth. And you do it obediently, lapping it up so wholeheartily! Good dog!

4. And as pointed out by others above, Daniel Pearl has nothing to do with Gitmo. The question really is WHY did you pick that example when there are PLENTY of other examples by NON-MUSLIMS that would be more applicable? See, it's your f-ing racist bias. You dumb ignorant religious zealot. The world pays for the ignorance of Americans such as yourself. Go learn YOUR OWN HISTORY. And its not in ancient scraps of paper about nonsense fairy tales.

1. So this is all a race war? A racially diverse country declared war on a country because it wasn't white? Your post just drips with race, I think you are the racist with the racist world views. Tell me your honest opinion of white people, by all means I'd love to hear it. I also assume that someone will call us out for creating 9/11. Read my post #36 again and try not to pop a vein in your forehead because you continue to bring up racial terms when this was never a racial debate. Put aside your race baiting hate for a minute and tell me what the hell to do with GITMO and their hunger strike, because you are just a babbling idiot spouting ignorant hate speech and making even the liberals on this site keep their distance from you.

2. You accuse me of assuming when I never said that Obama was a racist, only that he continues a war that he campaigned to stop and continues to keep GITMO open, find where I call him a racist, racist against whom? You make it sound like I have some say over our foreign policy, I am 1 in 3 in regards to voting in the right president, and I was a teenager when this all started, hardly in a position to refute what I was told, but I never claimed that our gov. doesn't do shady things, just that we can see no matter who the POTUS is, that what they do will never change.

3. Again false accusations don't fly with me. Where do I say I support an open war with Muslims? I want us to get the hell out of there. And take care of our own economy and helping countries with food and medicine. You know just putting these !!!!!!! everywhere doesn't add credibility to what you say, you actually have none.

4. Pearl has nothing to do with GITMO, he has everything to do with how THEY treated OUR citizens. Why should I bring up examples of Non-Muslims when we are talking about a conflict between us and a militant group that happens to be Muslim. As if every conflict since 1776 has been against "brown" people, I guess the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW1, WW2 weren't really white people, I guess we go where we are needed. And then you mock my religious beliefs, Who is the ignorant one here again, yeah you. I'd insult your beliefs but I think you only believe in yourself and that's just to easy.

 

[berzirk]

4. Pearl has nothing to do with GITMO, he has everything to do with how THEY treated OUR citizens.

This is still the part you don't get. Pearl was an American journalist, who happened to be Jewish, and wanted to go interview some of the most anti-American terrorists on the planet. Does that mean someone deserves to die? No. But it's a little like jumping in to a lion's cage with raw meat tied to your body, and condemning the lion for attacking. He entered somebody else's dojo, and lost his life over it. The prisoners at Gitmo were all picked up in their own back yard, by the world's biggest superpower, and remain there 12 years later.

 

[joeboosauce]

1. So this is all a race war? A racially diverse country declared war on a country because it wasn't white? Your post just drips with race, I think you are the racist with the racist world views. Tell me your honest opinion of white people, by all means I'd love to hear it. I also assume that someone will call us out for creating 9/11. Read my post #36 again and try not to pop a vein in your forehead because you continue to bring up racial terms when this was never a racial debate. Put aside your race baiting hate for a minute and tell me what the hell to do with GITMO and their hunger strike, because you are just a babbling idiot spouting ignorant hate speech and making even the liberals on this site keep their distance from you.

2. You accuse me of assuming when I never said that Obama was a racist, only that he continues a war that he campaigned to stop and continues to keep GITMO open, find where I call him a racist, racist against whom? You make it sound like I have some say over our foreign policy, I am 1 in 3 in regards to voting in the right president, and I was a teenager when this all started, hardly in a position to refute what I was told, but I never claimed that our gov. doesn't do shady things, just that we can see no matter who the POTUS is, that what they do will never change.

3. Again false accusations don't fly with me. Where do I say I support an open war with Muslims? I want us to get the hell out of there. And take care of our own economy and helping countries with food and medicine. You know just putting these !!!!!!! everywhere doesn't add credibility to what you say, you actually have none.

4. Pearl has nothing to do with GITMO, he has everything to do with how THEY treated OUR citizens. Why should I bring up examples of Non-Muslims when we are talking about a conflict between us and a militant group that happens to be Muslim. As if every conflict since 1776 has been against "brown" people, I guess the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW1, WW2 weren't really white people, I guess we go where we are needed. And then you mock my religious beliefs, Who is the ignorant one here again, yeah you. I'd insult your beliefs but I think you only believe in yourself and that's just to easy.

Here, I'll do you a big favor... Read Orientalism by Edward Said. That would be a good primer for you on racism and how it bleeds into a nation's foreign policy.

Again, you point out yet again your racist bias. Who is this elusive "THEY"??? These are people who are NOT terrorists and you compare them to terrorists. I wonder on what grounds?

So, I guess I'm the racist for pointing it out. "Race-baiter." The word Rush Lim-baa and the right-wing love to use to hide their lack of comprehension of a condition which still ails this country. Here's another great read with the preceding in mind: Racism Without Racists. But, we all know you guys don't read outside the ancient bible and what you lap up from Faux News (which isn't technically reading but for your kind, I guess it counts). PS Guess what kind you are?