NY Cigarette Tax to jump $1.60 more.

Knoell

Knoell

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Now I am not a smoker so this has no effect on me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/19/nyregion/19tax.html

But in NYC $5.85 tax on a single pack of cigarettes? The state tax alone would go from $2.75 to $4.35.(that is just tax mind you, full price would be over 10 dollars a pack.) Is there a point in which the state of NY (or any other state) is taking advantage of peoples smoking habit? Is there a point of taxation in which we can stop pretending their BS reasons of health care costs for smokers aren't plausible when they are simply doing it to cover a budget gap.

Also what are your thoughts on Indian Reservations not having to charge tax for cigarettes?
 
Wow.

>"The proposal would generate $440 million in revenue this year, helping close a state budget gap estimated at over $9 billion."

It'll help fill in about 1/20th of their budget gap. And I assume they've taken into account lost revenues from people who quit smoking or find other ways to obtain cigarettes.
 
We gave American Indians so fucking much. The least they can do is pay the federal government cigarette taxes. I'm curious why anyone would be opposed to that, considering how much we gave American Indians.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']And I assume they've taken into account lost revenues from people who quit smoking or find other ways to obtain cigarettes.[/QUOTE]

Politicians never do. That's why they're always surprised when revenue projections aren't met for any tax increase... and also why Dems don't believe in tax cuts.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']And I assume they've taken into account lost revenues from people who quit smoking or find other ways to obtain cigarettes.[/QUOTE]

This will not make many people stop smoking.
 
[quote name='IRHari']We gave American Indians so fucking much. The least they can do is pay the federal government cigarette taxes. I'm curious why anyone would be opposed to that, considering how much we gave American Indians.[/QUOTE]

You should actually do homework on the condition of the natives before commenting on how good they have it.

Unless you have been to foreign countries you've never seen the condition the current state of the natives are in. It's bad, really really bad.

Some other areas aren't really that far behind on cig prices though. Smoking is viewed in a negative so they can easily get away with raising taxes. Sucks for smokers.
 
[quote name='IRHari']We gave American Indians so fucking much. The least they can do is pay the federal government cigarette taxes. I'm curious why anyone would be opposed to that, considering how much we gave American Indians.[/QUOTE]

Do your research, reservations are chock full of good old regular american citizens buying tax free cigarettes (and gas). The Indians not paying the tax is not the problem, it is the regular old citizens who are avoiding it.

Around my area it is doing quite a bit of damage to local stores.

I had a brief idea of having to show ID when you purchase tax free items so that you could be charged tax, but why would reservations enforce that, they have a good thing going.
 
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[quote name='Knoell']reservations are chock full of good old regular american citizens[/QUOTE]

Do YOUR research, American Indians ARE good old regular american citizens. In fact, you might say they are the original old regular american citizens.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Do YOUR research, American Indians ARE good old regular american citizens. In fact, you might say they are the original old regular american citizens.[/QUOTE]

I am not seeing where I disputed this. At least in New York, most tribes do not charge sales tax on items purchased on their reservations. By regular Americans I mean ones who do not live on the reservation but come on the reservation to purchase items for the sole benefit of skipping the sales tax.

Are you searching for discrimination or bigotry in this too?
 
[quote name='Knoell']I am not seeing where I disputed this. At least in New York, most tribes do not charge sales tax on items purchased on their reservations. By regular Americans I mean ones who do not live on the reservation but come on the reservation to purchase items for the sole benefit of skipping the sales tax.

Are you searching for discrimination or bigotry in this too?[/QUOTE]

There's no need to search because it's painfully obvious where your racism and bigotry shine. By the use of "regular Americans" you're subscribing to the notion that Native Americans aren't your good old regular American citizens.

When you say "regular Americans" we all know what you mean.

And your little bit about having it good? If by that you mean high rates of suicides, illiteracy, domestic violence, alcoholism, and poverty, I guess you're right on the money. I mean who cares about that if they don't collect taxes when most Native Americans that live in reservations live in squalor.
 
I don't know how the various governments see reservations, but these folks consider themselves part of the "insert name of native american tribe" nation, if they're to see themselves this way, should they not be allowed to decide if they collect taxes or not?
 
[quote name='dohdough']There's no need to search because it's painfully obvious where your racism and bigotry shine. By the use of "regular Americans" you're subscribing to the notion that Native Americans aren't your good old regular American citizens.

When you say "regular Americans" we all know what you mean.

And your little bit about having it good? If by that you mean high rates of suicides, illiteracy, domestic violence, alcoholism, and poverty, I guess you're right on the money. I mean who cares about that if they don't collect taxes when most Native Americans that live in reservations live in squalor.[/QUOTE]

American Indians take pride in making themselves and their tribe distinct from America. Like Clak said they consider themselves part of their own tribal nation. That was my intention with that post, but you guys conviently turned it into racism.

You guys are jackasses for calling me a bigot again, you do not even know me.
 
[quote name='Knoell']American Indians take pride in making themselves and their tribe distinct from America. Like Clak said they consider themselves part of their own tribal nation. That was my intention with that post, but you guys conviently turned it into racism.

You guys are jackasses for calling me a bigot again, you do not even know me.[/QUOTE]

Oh we know you.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Oh we know you.[/QUOTE]

Yep now I am a bigot of muslims, american indians, and african americans. Care to add anyone else? It seems I am a bigot at every point in which you disagree with me. How convienent.
 
It's just that you jump through hoops to prove that you aren't a bigot while bemoaning everything that could possibly be taken away from "regular old Americans."

Wonder why that is?
 
[quote name='depascal22']It's just that you jump through hoops to prove that you aren't a bigot while bemoaning everything that could possibly be taken away from "regular old Americans."

Wonder why that is?[/QUOTE]

What am I bemoaning being taken away from "regular old Americans"?

I simply just don't think you understand my point about the reservations. I wasn't saying a single word about native americans not being taxed if they chose not to. I am talking about non-native american citizens who take advantage of that and go to the untaxed store rather than the taxed one down the road.

Anyways forget the whole reservation thing, you people are too trigger happy with race to discuss it.

What do you say about the cigarette tax in the state of new york rising to simply cover part of a budget gap?
 
I knew it was high already. Wasnt till like a month ago I realized how high it was. I was getting gas one night and saw these guys buying like Id say 50 cartons of cigarettes and carrying them out, on the way out I looked and they had NY plates on their car. I live in KY so name brand smokes are like 5.10 a pack and 3 something for the cheapass brands I think. So either they were putting them in the freezer for themselves or making a profit back home.

Guy I play WOW with, he is from canada and smokes and said before they were like 10 bucks a pack up there already.

I still dont see why its ok to tax cigarettes so badly. True they are bad for you and such but neither is a lot of other shit sold in stores. Its like cigarettes are some ugly thing for a person to do in this country and its considered a negative if you smoke. I used to smoke but now I dont, but I dont look down my nose at smokers just like I dont for people who drink too much. I just dont see the difference between taxing cigarettes so badly but not taxing like coke. Neither are necessary for life, they both arent exactly good for you, they are both just luxury products. I dont know if Im even making sense, I have a savage headache.
 
[quote name='gargus']I knew it was high already. Wasnt till like a month ago I realized how high it was. I was getting gas one night and saw these guys buying like Id say 50 cartons of cigarettes and carrying them out, on the way out I looked and they had NY plates on their car. I live in KY so name brand smokes are like 5.10 a pack and 3 something for the cheapass brands I think. So either they were putting them in the freezer for themselves or making a profit back home.

Guy I play WOW with, he is from canada and smokes and said before they were like 10 bucks a pack up there already.

I still dont see why its ok to tax cigarettes so badly. True they are bad for you and such but neither is a lot of other shit sold in stores. Its like cigarettes are some ugly thing for a person to do in this country and its considered a negative if you smoke. I used to smoke but now I dont, but I dont look down my nose at smokers just like I dont for people who drink too much. I just dont see the difference between taxing cigarettes so badly but not taxing like coke. Neither are necessary for life, they both arent exactly good for you, they are both just luxury products. I dont know if Im even making sense, I have a savage headache.[/QUOTE]

The reason people find it ok is because it is proven to be harmful to someone in any amount which soda isn't in moderation despite what some people believe, so they believe taxing it will have 2 effects. One being that it will help people make the decision to quit. Two being that it will help pay the healthcare bill that these people are costing the government.

Now if you agree with those two things fine whatever, but how does taxing them higher to close a budget gap fit in with any of the reasons sin taxes exist? In my eyes it doesn't and it is wrong. I would almost say it is criminal of the government to abuse and steal from people like that.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I am not seeing where I disputed this. At least in New York, most tribes do not charge sales tax on items purchased on their reservations. By regular Americans I mean ones who do not live on the reservation but come on the reservation to purchase items for the sole benefit of skipping the sales tax.

Are you searching for discrimination or bigotry in this too?[/QUOTE]

I don't know why everyone is getting all jumpy I thought it was clear what you meant. People do the same thing here in Az. They go to the res. to buy cigarettes tax free for slightly cheaper. The native americans sell them for a higher profit than surrounding stores because they are not paying the tax. That being right or wrong I don't care as I don't smoke.

When you said regular americans, I assumed that meant people who do not live in a special circumstance. Native americans living on a reservation are not living a normal american life style. The same could be said of military families living on a military base. It's not a put down to be outside of the regular circumstances.
 
[quote name='iwannadie']I don't know why everyone is getting all jumpy I thought it was clear what you meant. People do the same thing here in Az. They go to the res. to buy cigarettes tax free for slightly cheaper. The native americans sell them for a higher profit than surrounding stores because they are not paying the tax. That being right or wrong I don't care as I don't smoke.

When you said regular americans, I assumed that meant people who do not live in a special circumstance. Native americans living on a reservation are not living a normal american life style. The same could be said of military families living on a military base. It's not a put down to be outside of the regular circumstances.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, this is exactly what I meant. Im assuming they misunderstood, but shouting RACIST! on these forums seems to be the theme when they disagree. Don't be surprised if they start calling you racist because you live in Arizona which instituted a law they don't agree with which makes you racist.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Dude, I want you to explain your words. What is a regular american? If you don't want to explain it you shouldn't have used it.[/QUOTE]

I already have you idiot.

[quote name='Knoell']
American Indians take pride in making themselves and their tribe distinct from America. Like Clak said they consider themselves part of their own tribal nation. That was my intention with that post, but you guys conviently turned it into racism.
[/QUOTE]

Heres a quote from someone who actually understood what I was trying to say without their finger on the race card trigger.

When you said regular americans, I assumed that meant people who do not live in a special circumstance. Native americans living on a reservation are not living a normal american life style. The same could be said of military families living on a military base. It's not a put down to be outside of the regular circumstances.
Click to expand...

How many times are you guys going to call me racist before you stop and think for a second.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Dude, I want you to explain your words. What is a regular american? If you don't want to explain it you shouldn't have used it.[/QUOTE]

looks like a mod deleted my explanation.

It seems calling someone an idiot warrants a deletion where as calling someone a racist doesn't.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Because calling someone a racist (when they've proven themselves to be) isn't a slur.[/QUOTE]

One quote that is unmanipulated by your explanation of it that proves to me to be a racist. Just one. Please. Any one.
 
[quote name='Knoell']One quote that is unmanipulated by your explanation of it that proves to me to be a racist. Just one. Please. Any one.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to do what you do and talk about bikes now. Frustrating isn't it?
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm going to do what you do and talk about bikes now. Frustrating isn't it?[/QUOTE]

Thank you Sir, now don't call me a racist again please.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The reason people find it ok is because it is proven to be harmful to someone in any amount which soda isn't in moderation despite what some people believe, so they believe taxing it will have 2 effects. One being that it will help people make the decision to quit. Two being that it will help pay the healthcare bill that these people are costing the government.

Now if you agree with those two things fine whatever, but how does taxing them higher to close a budget gap fit in with any of the reasons sin taxes exist? In my eyes it doesn't and it is wrong. I would almost say it is criminal of the government to abuse and steal from people like that.[/QUOTE]

Cigarettes arent harmful in just "any amount" really. You have to smoke regullary for awhile before it starts effecting your health. Its not like you smoke and suddenly your disease ridden. Cigarettes dont even really cause cancer as to be believed, they may increase the risk but they certainly dont cause it, if that were true every person who took a puff off a cigarette would contract it right then and there with no exceptions. Oh yes they are definitely bad for you, but that takes chronic use for awhile. Its like the common misconception that drugs form a physical addiction and for a person to be truly physically addicted to drugs you are litterally almost dead by that point anyway and it takes years of heavy use to get there.

And stopping people from smoking helps healthcare costs how? People that have health related issues to cigarettes are not nearly as large of a group as say, diabetics are alone. Ive been a nurse for about 7 years now and smoking related health issues Ive seen are pretty small in relaity, mostly breathing issues. Ive seen far more people come into the hospital hurt from alcohol related accidents and Ive had I think 5 patients die infront of me from from liver damage from drinking while I have not ever seen a patient die from anything cigarette related.

Your taking the soda thing to far just so you have a reason to argue anyway. My point I plainly said was that coke is another form of sin anyway in that no one needs coke, it has absolutely no dietary benefit to it, its not exactly good for you or anything. Its the same thing as cigarettes in the sense that it has no benefit to anyone, its completely voluntary whether someone buys it or not and it exsists only for the sole purpose of pleasure and nothing else. My whole point was simply why is one taxed heavily but not the other when they are in the same class really.
 
Just to get back to the topic for a moment, I have a little story about big tobacco and tobacco taxes:

I live in Massachusetts and have smoked for several years. When I started smoking, a pack of cigarettes cost less than $4 for Malboroughs, which was around 1998. At one point, it was so ridiculous that for less than $5, you could get two fucking packs of cigarettes with a BOYO offer. After a while, taxes went up and cigarettes went to about $7 a pack a few years ago. Do you know what happened? The cigarette companies dropped the prices back down to meet the $5 price point.

The main point of this? That tobacco companies will do almost anything to get your ass hooked on their cancer sticks and make ridiculous amounts of money based at a ridiculous profit margin. Secondly, higher taxes won't scare anyone away because that's the nature of addiction. And finally, it's a regressive tax as it not only disproportionately target people with lower income, but the tobacco companies ALSO target and market to lower income urban areas as well.

On one level, I abhor the tax as I know people will spend their last few $$$ to get a pack of cigarettes, but on the brightside, it increases the barrier to entry into this horrible addiction.
 
[quote name='gargus']Cigarettes arent harmful in just "any amount" really. You have to smoke regullary for awhile before it starts effecting your health. Its not like you smoke and suddenly your disease ridden. Cigarettes dont even really cause cancer as to be believed, they may increase the risk but they certainly dont cause it, if that were true every person who took a puff off a cigarette would contract it right then and there with no exceptions. Oh yes they are definitely bad for you, but that takes chronic use for awhile. Its like the common misconception that drugs form a physical addiction and for a person to be truly physically addicted to drugs you are litterally almost dead by that point anyway and it takes years of heavy use to get there.

And stopping people from smoking helps healthcare costs how? People that have health related issues to cigarettes are not nearly as large of a group as say, diabetics are alone. Ive been a nurse for about 7 years now and smoking related health issues Ive seen are pretty small in relaity, mostly breathing issues. Ive seen far more people come into the hospital hurt from alcohol related accidents and Ive had I think 5 patients die infront of me from from liver damage from drinking while I have not ever seen a patient die from anything cigarette related.

Your taking the soda thing to far just so you have a reason to argue anyway. My point I plainly said was that coke is another form of sin anyway in that no one needs coke, it has absolutely no dietary benefit to it, its not exactly good for you or anything. Its the same thing as cigarettes in the sense that it has no benefit to anyone, its completely voluntary whether someone buys it or not and it exsists only for the sole purpose of pleasure and nothing else. My whole point was simply why is one taxed heavily but not the other when they are in the same class really.[/QUOTE]


I didn't say I agreed with sin taxes or the reasons for them, I was just telling you about the talking points for sin taxes. The soda thing was the same thing, people (not me) say that soda should be taxed because it has no benefit to anyone.

Although I don't know I believe that cigarettes aren't harmful for even a short amount of time, or that they don't cause cancer, I will say that it is the persons choice to drink alcohal, smoke, or drink soda and the government should not decide what is a "sin"
 
[quote name='gargus']Cigarettes arent harmful in just "any amount" really. You have to smoke regullary for awhile before it starts effecting your health. Its not like you smoke and suddenly your disease ridden. Cigarettes dont even really cause cancer as to be believed, they may increase the risk but they certainly dont cause it, if that were true every person who took a puff off a cigarette would contract it right then and there with no exceptions. Oh yes they are definitely bad for you, but that takes chronic use for awhile. Its like the common misconception that drugs form a physical addiction and for a person to be truly physically addicted to drugs you are litterally almost dead by that point anyway and it takes years of heavy use to get there.

And stopping people from smoking helps healthcare costs how? People that have health related issues to cigarettes are not nearly as large of a group as say, diabetics are alone. Ive been a nurse for about 7 years now and smoking related health issues Ive seen are pretty small in relaity, mostly breathing issues. Ive seen far more people come into the hospital hurt from alcohol related accidents and Ive had I think 5 patients die infront of me from from liver damage from drinking while I have not ever seen a patient die from anything cigarette related.

Your taking the soda thing to far just so you have a reason to argue anyway. My point I plainly said was that coke is another form of sin anyway in that no one needs coke, it has absolutely no dietary benefit to it, its not exactly good for you or anything. Its the same thing as cigarettes in the sense that it has no benefit to anyone, its completely voluntary whether someone buys it or not and it exsists only for the sole purpose of pleasure and nothing else. My whole point was simply why is one taxed heavily but not the other when they are in the same class really.[/QUOTE]

You're a nurse? Tell me which hospital so I know never to go there. There's so much bullshit in this post I don't know where to start. The only thing you have right is that smoking doesn't cause cancer directly, but that's a pretty damn thin line when it really screws you up physically. And being a nurse, you should know more than I do about the nature of addiction.

Another thing, from your list of pro-tobacco lobby talking points, you're either heavily addicted to cigarettes, never smoked in your life, or sucking down some heavy pseudo-libertarian kool aid.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The reason people find it ok is because it is proven to be harmful to someone in any amount which soda isn't in moderation despite what some people believe, so they believe taxing it will have 2 effects. One being that it will help people make the decision to quit. Two being that it will help pay the healthcare bill that these people are costing the government.

Now if you agree with those two things fine whatever, but how does taxing them higher to close a budget gap fit in with any of the reasons sin taxes exist? In my eyes it doesn't and it is wrong. I would almost say it is criminal of the government to abuse and steal from people like that.[/QUOTE]
I actually don't really care what smokers do to their bodies, so really that isn't my reason. My reason is that I have breathing trouble already and really hate it when some inconsiderate jackass lights up around me. Try walking into a building in the winter that doesn't allow smoking, there will probably be people smoking outside the door, it's great to walk through that shit every time you go in and out.
 
[quote name='gargus']Cigarettes arent harmful in just "any amount" really. [/QUOTE]
You got asthma?

edit- You're a nurse? Holy shit.
 
I have asthma and have trouble breathing due to pollution from cars. I want to create laws that make it illegal for people to drive cars. Or, at least, charge $5.85/gallon tax on gas.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I have asthma and have trouble breathing due to pollution from cars. I want to create laws that make it illegal for people to drive cars. Or, at least, charge $5.85/gallon tax on gas.[/QUOTE]

The funny thing is that if environmentalists could get away with that they would.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The funny thing is that if environmentalists could get away with that they would.[/QUOTE]

If our cities were built correctly, they could. Everyone should be able to walk to work and the market but America loves cars and driving because it's an expression of individual freedom.
 
[quote name='depascal22']If our cities were built correctly, they could. Everyone should be able to walk to work and the market but America loves cars and driving because it's an expression of individual freedom.[/QUOTE]

Not everyone wants to live in a city.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Not everyone wants to live in a city.[/QUOTE]

Then don't work, play, or shop in one. Everyone wants nice things for their cities but then they treat them like they're just there for work and a football team. It makes no sense. Are we a culture or are we just 250 million people scattered across a huge country?
 
So, does anyone actually have a problem with the government setting policy through taxation? I don't.
[quote name='UncleBob']I have asthma and have trouble breathing due to pollution from cars. I want to create laws that make it illegal for people to drive cars. Or, at least, charge $5.85/gallon tax on gas.[/QUOTE]
I dream of this every day. Imagine all the people. Living life in peace.

And paying for their fucking externalities.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I have asthma and have trouble breathing due to pollution from cars. I want to create laws that make it illegal for people to drive cars. Or, at least, charge $5.85/gallon tax on gas.[/QUOTE]
Aren't you cute...it's not like emissions are regulated at all or maybe the domestic auto companies have been fighting increases in efficiency and lower emissions for decades right?
 
[quote name='dohdough']Aren't you cute...it's not like emissions are regulated at all or maybe the domestic auto companies have been fighting increases in efficiency and lower emissions for decades right?[/QUOTE]

But not everyone wants to live in cities or drive fuel efficient cars right? Don't tell me what I can and can't drive. It's my God given right to pollute the atmosphere and pass on the bill of higher health costs to everyone.

The fact is, you should be pissed if people on your health care plan are smoking and/or doing other harmful things. Their bad decisions are costing you more money.

The higher the costs for the group, the higher the premiums go up right? You guys are all about the all mighty dollar and not taking an extra cent for anything but you're completely cool that someone sits there and smokes and is literally taking money out of your pocket? It makes no sense. We tax them accordingly to recoup some of that cost and you go apeshit just because it's the government doing it.

What would you suggest? Dropping every smoker from health plans and making them pay their own way? We see how well that works out. We all still end up paying for other people's mistakes.

How is that fair? Or do you guys even give a fuck about fair and just stick to your bullshit conservative principles that make no sense in the 21st Century?
 
[quote name='depascal22']But not everyone wants to live in cities or drive fuel efficient cars right? Don't tell me what I can and can't drive. It's my God given right to pollute the atmosphere and pass on the bill of higher health costs to everyone.

The fact is, you should be pissed if people on your health care plan are smoking and/or doing other harmful things. Their bad decisions are costing you more money.

The higher the costs for the group, the higher the premiums go up right? You guys are all about the all mighty dollar and not taking an extra cent for anything but you're completely cool that someone sits there and smokes and is literally taking money out of your pocket? It makes no sense. We tax them accordingly to recoup some of that cost and you go apeshit just because it's the government doing it.

What would you suggest? Dropping every smoker from health plans and making them pay their own way? We see how well that works out. We all still end up paying for other people's mistakes.

How is that fair? Or do you guys even give a fuck about fair and just stick to your bullshit conservative principles that make no sense in the 21st Century?[/QUOTE]
Ummm...he was being facetious and I was mocking him?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I have asthma and have trouble breathing due to pollution from cars. I want to create laws that make it illegal for people to drive cars. Or, at least, charge $5.85/gallon tax on gas.[/QUOTE]
I'll tell ya what cupcake, stick a catalytic converter on the ends of cigarettes and then we'll talk. At least vehicle emissions are regulated, and technology has been used to limit their emissions. Besides that, people do need transport, it's essential to modern life for most people. People don't need cigarettes for a damn thing.
 
A.) People don't need cars. It makes your life easier, yes. However, the human race survived a couple of years before cars were invented just fine.

B.) Auto emissions may be regulated, but let's take the emissions from all the vehicles in the US for one year and pit them against all the emissions from cigarettes in the US for one year. Now, I'm just guessing, but one of those stacks is going to be far bigger and much more dangerous than the other.
 
Hell, I'd be happy with auto emissions standards period.

My bad, dohdough. Knoell and Bob destroyed my sarcasm detector a long time ago.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Hell, I'd be happy with auto emissions standards period.

My bad, dohdough. Knoell and Bob destroyed my sarcasm detector a long time ago.[/QUOTE]
No worries...at this point, I can't tell if he's trolling or not...:D
 
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