Official 2011-2012 NBA Season thread

[quote name='lordopus99']The trade still shows it was terrible.

Denver: 16-12 (5.5 games back in the West)
NY prior to Lin given his shot: 8-15

Amare and Melo are far from top 15 in my opinion. You have to play defense to be considered that high.

Fun Fact: NY is better without Melo/Amare than they are with them. 4-0.[/QUOTE]


Come the fuck off it jesus christ. Dude this is getting far too fanboy for me. I am glad I am not a fan of any one NBA team so I dont have to constantly walk around in a fantasy world.

Amare is one of the leagues best pick and roll PF.....so what does NY do the very second they get him? Oh...get rid of every PG on the team. "uhhhwaaaaa? Waaa why isnt Amare playing well? Duuurr."

Melo is not and has never been a point forward. He attacks from mid range via triple threat, post and iso. Why the hell do you expect him to run an offense? Oh wait its because you dont have any guards and he is the best player on the team so you just default to him so the gameplan turns into...watch Melo for 22 seconds.

Mikey D's system is horrid. He lucked out with having a 2 time MVP HOF lock and arguable one of the greatest passer not named Stockton in Steve Nash. You are surprised that the same system doesnt work with fucking Iman Shumpert and Mike Bibby? Not to mention you have NO DEPTH...Mike Bibby, Tony Douglas, Bill Walker, Jared Jefferies, Josh Harrellson? Yea teams really have to be scared of this second unit.


Are they playing well? No...but its clear with Lin that this gimmicky ass system only works with a PG that can be dominant.

People always try to rip on Melo and Stat for not playing defense but no one the team is known for defense other than T-Chan. Clearly Mikey D doesnt value it at all. Its not a "its all melos fault," the way the team is built is mind boggling. None of the stars that they have can run an offense...then you surround them with filler guys who dont create or play defense. Then you wonder why you are struggling.

Having a real PG in Lin will allow for Melo and Stat to get back to doing what they do best and should drastically bail out Mikey D piss poor gimmick of an offense. If you were not a jaded fanboy you would be excited to see all three play together. Also to further prove my point that Mikey D is just a bad coach is the fact they he didnt see this a while ago. Its not like Lin magically learned to play yesterday...clearly he just wasnt given any chances until now. Thats huge mark against the coaching staff and makes me question their ability to spot talent. (thats probably why you ended up with Jared Jefferies and Tony Douglas.)

(How many championships has he gone to again or even deep into the playoffs?)


EDIT: Oh wait I forgot to mention...do you guys remember 3 years ago when Denver was 2nd in the West come play off time. Correct me if I am wrong but they had Melo back then right? They also had....Billups and Andre Miller? They also had JR Smith, Howard and Nene. Awwww how having good guard play and competent backs up makes all the difference.
 
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If you don't think D'antoni is a great coach you are crazy. He didn't luck into Steve Nash, he took a thirty year old solid PG and turned him into an MVP. Do you really think Dallas would have let him go if they knew that Nash had this in his game? They saw someone who was good, not great, go to the desert and fucking light things up in the right system. If Sarver wasn't a fucking cheapskate they probably win the West at least twice and they have at least one ring.

D'antoni isn't a GM, so blaming him for the personnel he has isn't something he should take heat for. He didn't build this team. James Dolan and Isiah Thomas did (Donnie Walsh shouldn't take heat because he wouldn't have made the Melo deal and would have waited for the offseason to bring him to NY).
 
Lol @ the notion that Mr Pringles is somehow a good coach, yea his finals trips and rings speak volumes....oh wait you have to stress playing defense for that to happen. Knicks are still a 1st round exit if not a sweep thats if they even make the playoffs LOL
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Dude, the trade wasnt that bad. Lets stop with the bullshit unfounded hate on Melo and get down to the real problem.[/QUOTE]

Melo is consistently voted as one of the most overrated players in the league and one of the worst defenders by his peers. Maybe it seems that I am being unfair to Melo, but the reality is, they Knicks gave up stuff that you would give up for an elite player. Melo is not an elite player. He isn't LeBron or Kobe or Wade or Dirk. He cannot carry a team to any kind of legitimate playoff success. He has shown that time and time again. He just isn't good enough. And he is completely unwilling to adjust his game for the good of the team. Like him or not (I waver on him), D'Antoni has an offensive system, and it works. The proof is in how many points the Knicks have scored recently without their two stars on the floor. Melo grinds that entire offensive system to a halt.

The Knicks gave up multiple draft picks to get him, as well as Gallo. Gallo's efficiency ratings are almost the same as Melo's this year, except keeping him would have cost zero draft picks and less money. It was a terrible trade. Felton and Amare were building up a great rapport, and Gallo is still getting better, whereas Melo has obviously hit his prime. If the Knicks never made that trade, they could have possibly had a lineup along the lines of:

Felton
Fields
Gallo
Amare
Chandler

That lineup is as good as what they started the season with, with the added of bonus of not having Melo's contract and less draft picks. Perhaps the only good thing that has come out of this whole mess is Lin. The Knicks probably would have never signed him if things didn't break this way, because he was just an emergency signing after all of their guards got hurt. But as someone else pointed out, if he actually is the real deal, the Knicks probably won't be able to keep him. Thus, the life of being a Knick fan...
 
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Another LOL worthy thing i forgot about is Fields. Last time i checked he's still on his rookie contract and if hes on the upswing like everyone says he is and has potential theres another player you most likely wont be able to keep, cause of all the money tied up to melo amare chandler.
 
Don't get me started on Fields and the trade. He isn't the most talented guy in the world, but he has superior basketball instincts, which makes him a perfect fit in Super Mario's offensive system. There are a ton of opportunities to sneak into cracks when the defense breaks down. He was having a very good rookie season before Melo showed up. The offense become an isolation-fest, and Fields dropped off the map. One could argue that a lot of it had to do with rookie fatigue, but watching those games, you could see Fields struggling to find his place in an offense that revolved around Melo holding the ball for 10 seconds, as opposed to the ball being worked around and him slashing and cutting.
 
[quote name='renique46']Lol @ the notion that Mr Pringles is somehow a good coach, yea his finals trips and rings speak volumes....oh wait you have to stress playing defense for that to happen. Knicks are still a 1st round exit if not a sweep thats if they even make the playoffs LOL[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LT_C7o5ZGM

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...heck-devastating-it-robbed-phoenix-of-a-title

That doesn't happen and PHX makes the finals in 07. They would have murdered the Cavs.
 
One, didnt say Mikey D is a horrid coach I said his system is gimmicky and seemingly only works with dominant PGs which he clearly doesnt have in NY so his system becomes worthless . I do love the typical fanboy responds Casey, "if this would/wouldnt have happened they would be a Dynasty!!! Got to love facts that can not be commented on because they dont exist in reality. If Yao Ming wouldnt have been hurt he would have won 14 championships since it cant be proven other wise I guess its fact.

Two, its not even that I dislike any of the Knicks players per say...I just hate fanboy discussions. "Waaa my team drafted the wrong player...waaa why didnt they make a trade....waaaaa what did they make a trade....waaaa we are not number 1 so everything is wrong"

The glass isnt even half full, its cracked and doesnt hold water for you people. You are constantly in a cycle of over rating and under rating everyone and bitching about everything. How do you even have time to enjoy the sport?

Bigdaddybruces post is a perfect example of ridiculous fanboy regret. You are mad because your team broke up a fucking 29-53 team? A 32-50 team the year before that? Get the hell out of here, oh I forgot magical unforeseen potential = championship in the eyes of a jaded fanboy looking for scapegoats. Also I love how you just rule out the fact that Dano might be doing better because he is in a different system with different players and coaches. Nope, couldnt possible be that Karl system is just better.

Then the argument that Melo is not a good player is fucking stupid and just makes me shake my head. He only has made the playoffs in every season he has been in the league, constantly averages over well over 20 points a game 7 rebounds with 4 assit and at one point was top 5 in game winning shots. He is the 7th leading scorer in the league right now.


I just wish I could base all of my sports talk on magical scenarios that dont exist.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']One, didnt say Mikey D is a horrid coach I said his system is gimmicky and seemingly only works with dominant PGs which he clearly doesnt have in NY so his system becomes worthless . I do love the typical fanboy responds Casey, "if this would/wouldnt have happened they would be a Dynasty!!! Got to love facts that can not be commented on because they dont exist in reality. If Yao Ming wouldnt have been hurt he would have won 14 championships since it cant be proven other wise I guess its fact.

Two, its not even that I dislike any of the Knicks players per say...I just hate fanboy discussions. "Waaa my team drafted the wrong player...waaa why didnt they make a trade....waaaaa what did they make a trade....waaaa we are not number 1 so everything is wrong"

The glass isnt even half full, its cracked and doesnt hold water for you people. You are constantly in a cycle of over rating and under rating everyone and bitching about everything. How do you even have time to enjoy the sport?

Bigdaddybruces post is a perfect example of ridiculous fanboy regret. You are mad because your team broke up a fucking 29-53 team? A 32-50 team the year before that? Get the hell out of here, oh I forgot magical unforeseen potential = championship in the eyes of a jaded fanboy looking for scapegoats. Also I love how you just rule out the fact that Dano might be doing better because he is in a different system with different players and coaches. Nope, couldnt possible be that Karl system is just better.

Then the argument that Melo is not a good player is fucking stupid and just makes me shake my head. He only has made the playoffs in every season he has been in the league, constantly averages over well over 20 points a game 7 rebounds with 4 assit and at one point was top 5 in game winning shots. He is the 7th leading scorer in the league right now.


I just wish I could base all of my sports talk on magical scenarios that dont exist.[/QUOTE]

You blamed the coach for losing, I point out that there are mitigating circumstances (terrible owner, cheap plays by the Spurs). You then call me a fanboy of a team I dislike, but respect. All it shows is that you don't know how to argue and resort to cheap tactics.

You then point out that teams with losing records all deserve to be broken up, which is the dumbest thing ever written in this thread. Young teams grow and get better. It's how basketball works. You grow and get better. Look at the Thunder and how they went from shit and got better. Look at the Timberwolves. You basically just insinuated that those teams didn't know what they were doing because they were shit at one point.

Also you completely ignore the shit that D'antoni and Walsh were handed. They had a team with bad draft picks, terrible contracts, and no talent. It started getting better, and then Dolan listened to Isiah. Instead of paying attention to the situation in the league, Dolan said fuck it and did what he wanted. Everyone knew there was going to be a lockout and now because of that they are fucked by their salary cap situation with little chance to get better.

It boils down to the fact that they put a pick and roll force with an iso player and it doesn't work. This is a team that needs to install the triangle when they have the time this offseason because they have no shot without it.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']

Then the argument that Melo is not a good player is fucking stupid and just makes me shake my head. He only has made the playoffs in every season he has been in the league, constantly averages over well over 20 points a game 7 rebounds with 4 assit and at one point was top 5 in game winning shots. He is the 7th leading scorer in the league right now.


I just wish I could base all of my sports talk on magical scenarios that dont exist.[/QUOTE]

Eh, I just think he's overrated. He's good no doubt, but not as great as most people think he is, he definitely needs to be in the right system to succeed, somewhere he can dominate the ball and have a ton of iso plays run for him.
 
Who said Melo isn't good? Everyone is saying he is overrated, which he is. And he makes the playoffs? 16 teams make the playoffs in the NBA. That's more than half the league. A thoroughly ho-hum accomplishment, especially considering he's gotten out of the first round a grand total of one time, including "leading" one of only two 50-win teams to be swept in the first round.

By the way, Melo is 31st in the league in efficiency rating, behind such elite players as Marcin Gortat, Kyle Lowry, and Anderson Varejao. I might be willing to give him a pass, considering he's been playing hurt a bunch, but in this shortened NBA season, just about no one is playing to their potential or at full strength. And in the four previous seasons, he's been 15th, 14th, 32nd, and 13th.
 
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Melo may have a knack for putting the ball in the basket, but that's about it. He doesn't play quality defense and he takes plays off. He's overrated because he's a one way player in a two way game.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']You blamed the coach for losing, I point out that there are mitigating circumstances (terrible owner, cheap plays by the Spurs). You then call me a fanboy of a team I dislike, but respect. All it shows is that you don't know how to argue and resort to cheap tactics.

You then point out that teams with losing records all deserve to be broken up, which is the dumbest thing ever written in this thread. Young teams grow and get better. It's how basketball works. You grow and get better. Look at the Thunder and how they went from shit and got better. Look at the Timberwolves. You basically just insinuated that those teams didn't know what they were doing because they were shit at one point.

Also you completely ignore the shit that D'antoni and Walsh were handed. They had a team with bad draft picks, terrible contracts, and no talent. It started getting better, and then Dolan listened to Isiah. Instead of paying attention to the situation in the league, Dolan said fuck it and did what he wanted. Everyone knew there was going to be a lockout and now because of that they are fucked by their salary cap situation with little chance to get better.

It boils down to the fact that they put a pick and roll force with an iso player and it doesn't work. This is a team that needs to install the triangle when they have the time this offseason because they have no shot without it.[/QUOTE]


I hate this topic so much but I am going to respond to this to clarify.

First, I am not really trying to debate this topic which is why it seems like I am turning to cheap tactics. I find this whole, "dump on Melo" truly trite and easy as its mostly fanboys with typical knee jerk crap.

Now, we are actually saying almost the same thing. I am not just blaming the coach, I am simply saying it cant be a Melo hate fest when clearly there are more things going on. The GM, the system, the players, the coaches...whatever..its a little bit wrong with all of it.

This is what Bruce is doing. Its all melos faults, he isnt a winner, look at is EFF, we would win more without him....blah blah bullshit bullshit kneejerk kneejerk.

Now, you are wrong, I have never said losing teams deserve to be broken up. I am saying that you cant complain when a shit team gets broken up. Now that is the dumbest thing in the world. Your car hasnt worked in 10 years yet you get mad when someone towed it? You cant have it both ways. How does one both bitch about a loosing team AND bitch when they try to acquire star players? Whether it works out or not is irrelevant and a different topic. Thats not what people are trying to prove...they are trying to somehow convince everyone that Melo is the worst player of all time when clearly he is not.

Now, I dont really care what Wash and Mikey D were handed, with all teams I want to see them make decisions to improve and compete. The trade clearly was them trying to improve so I have no qualms about it. I am ripping on them because it seems like they havent made any adjustments to the roster they have. That gimmicky offense only works with PG it seems....you didnt have any...so why are you still trying to run it? Adjust and run something else, you lucked out that Lin (who you somehow missed this entire time) can run it so I guess its a moot point for now.

So in closing, we are saying about the same thing, although I dont understand how you can say that the team needs to install a triangle offense (which would work) yet somehow not blame the coach for a bad system. Evaluate the strengths that your players have and adjust to them. Melo isnt a point forward, Stat is a pick and roll PF, clearly that doesnt work without a PG which you didnt have until now. I fully blame Mikey D for not adjusting.


The Knicks have a lot of problems....trying to blame it all on Melo is retarded but more importantly the constant pessimist attitude is what really irks me about this topic. Instead of being excited that you now have a PG to run the offense with Melo and Stat you bitch about them coming back. It gets old really fast. By the way they havent beaten anyone of any real stat yet. Net, Jazz, Wizs, Lakers (they lost to the Jazz and just barely beat the Raptors..they are not that dominant) and T-Wolves.

In my personal opinion with Lin I think the Knicks will start being really competitive. Be excited god damn it. I dont know how people even enjoy sports anymore when all they do is bitch about it.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']
Two, its not even that I dislike any of the Knicks players per say...I just hate fanboy discussions. "Waaa my team drafted the wrong player...waaa why didnt they make a trade....waaaaa what did they make a trade....waaaa we are not number 1 so everything is wrong"[/quote]
To be a fanboy, you have to first like a team. Not sure why you continue to bring this term since to my knowledge none of us are knick fans.

The trade clearly was them trying to improve so I have no qualms about it.
Click to expand...
Still trying to figure that angle out as well. Melo's offense is iso. D'Antoni's offense is slash/go. Offensively, he doesn't fit the system. Melo doesn't play defense so that wasn't going to help. At least Amare, with his total lack of defense, plays well into the offensive system run by the coach.

I will prefix... Melo is a decent scorer. Nowhere near his contract. Key word: Overrated.

Melo isnt a point forward, Stat is a pick and roll PF, clearly that doesnt work without a PG which you didnt have until now.
Click to expand...
Was Felton an elite point guard outside this system? No. Did this system make him look like an elite point guard? Yes.

As for this season, they have Mike Bibby. He is a proven point guard. Not the best but fully capable of running a team in this type of offense. So to say this was the reason is crap.

Enter Lin. Dropped by 2 teams. Now looking like an elite point guard. When Melo comes back with his iso, Lin's numbers drop. See Shumbert. Guaranteed.
 
[quote name='lordopus99']To be a fanboy, you have to first like a team. Not sure why you continue to bring this term since to my knowledge none of us are knick fans.


Still trying to figure that angle out as well. Melo's offense is iso. D'Antoni's offense is slash/go. Offensively, he doesn't fit the system. Melo doesn't play defense so that wasn't going to help. At least Amare, with his total lack of defense, plays well into the offensive system run by the coach.

I will prefix... Melo is a decent scorer. Nowhere near his contract. Key word: Overrated.


Was Felton an elite point guard outside this system? No. Did this system make him look like an elite point guard? Yes.

As for this season, they have Mike Bibby. He is a proven point guard. Not the best but fully capable of running a team in this type of offense. So to say this was the reason is crap.

Enter Lin. Dropped by 2 teams. Now looking like an elite point guard. When Melo comes back with his iso, Lin's numbers drop. See Shumbert. Guaranteed.[/QUOTE]

Melo is not the problem. Up until a week ago we lacked a PG who could run D'Antoni's system. ( Fun fact, Linsanity would have never occurred but for Melo asking D'Antoni to play Lin.) Melo will be fine. He's never going to be a point forward or great passer of the ball, but he's a great score in the mold of old school 80's SFs. He needs a pg to feed him the ball when he's in a position to score. Lin and Davis will do this effectively while keeping everyone else happy.

D'Antoni system essentially requires a PG who can beat his man off the dribble and can dish the ball to either corner for the open 3 or take it to the hoop. Where he fails as a coach is that 1) he refuses to alter his offensive system to suit his roster; and 2) his offensive system always leaves the team vulnerable defensively. As a Knicks fan I'm excited to see what the next two months hold in store.
 
[quote name='kill3r7']Melo is not the problem. Up until a week ago we lacked a PG who could run D'Antoni's system. ( Fun fact, Linsanity would have never occurred but for Melo asking D'Antoni to play Lin.) Melo will be fine. He's never going to be a point forward or great passer of the ball, but he's a great score in the mold of old school 80's SFs. He needs a pg to feed him the ball when he's in a position to score. Lin and Davis will do this effectively while keeping everyone else happy.

D'Antoni system essentially requires a PG who can beat his man off the dribble and can dish the ball to either corner for the open 3 or take it to the hoop. Where he fails as a coach is that 1) he refuses to alter his offensive system to suit his roster; and 2) his offensive system always leaves the team vulnerable defensively. As a Knicks fan I'm excited to see what the next two months hold in store.[/QUOTE]


Hmm...this is almost exactly what I said.....well play good sir.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Hmm...this is almost exactly what I said.....well play good sir.[/QUOTE]

Sorry. I was short on time so I didn't read all the posts above. I was merely responding to the other poster. As a Knicks fan I'm tired of people blaming Melo for all the teams shortcomings. Yes, it is true that the Knicks would have been better had Melo signed during the offseason but that was not happening. Furthermore, there isn't a team in the entire league that would not benefit from the addition of 3 very good players and a young center.
 
You know, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone in this thread ever said that everything is Melo's fault. What everyone is saying is that it was a bad trade...and it was. I would love to see one legitimate analyst who thinks that the Knicks made out in that Melo trade. Before it, they were an ok team. Since it, they've been an ok team. The difference is, they had more draft picks and less money tied up in a massive, long-term contract. And if you don't think those draft picks are important, just look at what the Knick brain trust has done with in their last two drafts. Both Fields and Shumpert are integral parts of their rotation, and neither one was that high of a pick (Fields in the 2nd round and Shumpert in the middle of the 1st). If anything, Fields was the steal of the last few drafts. If nothing else, the Knicks know how to make the most of later draft picks, and the three that they gave away for Melo likely would have led to at least one legitimate player.

EDIT: Oh, and I nearly forgot Josh Harrellson. Late 2nd round by NO that Knicks got for cash. And he was averaging 5 points and 4 rebounds in about 18 minutes before he got hurt.
 
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[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']It's crazy. He turns the ball over way too much, but considering what they had at point guard, Lin is still a massive upgrade.[/QUOTE]

Yep. And that's something that will improve with time as he gets more experience. Going to get TOs from a PG playing in the NBA for the first time.
 
Weird stretch for the Magic the past few weeks. Lost 6 of 8 the latter part of January. Now have won 6 out of 8 this month (including a win over the Heat), with the two losses coming in OT (Clippers and Hawks).

Hard to figure this team out this season.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']You know, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone in this thread ever said that everything is Melo's fault. What everyone is saying is that it was a bad trade...and it was. I would love to see one legitimate analyst who thinks that the Knicks made out in that Melo trade. Before it, they were an ok team. Since it, they've been an ok team. The difference is, they had more draft picks and less money tied up in a massive, long-term contract. And if you don't think those draft picks are important, just look at what the Knick brain trust has done with in their last two drafts. Both Fields and Shumpert are integral parts of their rotation, and neither one was that high of a pick (Fields in the 2nd round and Shumpert in the middle of the 1st). If anything, Fields was the steal of the last few drafts. If nothing else, the Knicks know how to make the most of later draft picks, and the three that they gave away for Melo likely would have led to at least one legitimate player.

EDIT: Oh, and I nearly forgot Josh Harrellson. Late 2nd round by NO that Knicks got for cash. And he was averaging 5 points and 4 rebounds in about 18 minutes before he got hurt.[/QUOTE]

The Knicks were going to sign another max K superstar before the start of this season. At which point they would have no cap space remaining to resign Chandler. Additionally, Fields might have been relegated to the bench so Galo (who by the way we would have to resign for a nice chunk of change) could start. The starting lineup would consist of

PG - Felton
SG - Galo/ Fields
SF - Melo/ Random max K star/ Galo
PF - Amare
C - Mozgov/ Marc Gasol

So if you think that lineup is significantly better than what the Knicks have now you are deluded. This teams fate was sealed 3 years ago when Walsh decided to create enough cap space for two superstars. From that moment on everything the Knicks did was in furtherance of that goal. Picks and players became expandable to achieve said goal. So no, I don't think the Melo trade was bad. The team hasn't performed well so far but it's a process. The vision remains the same. Lin has just sped up the process. He is a playmaker who can run D'Antoni's system. Thus, making everyone around him better. Lin has been a huge find and has been playing out of his mind, but what's really helped during this winning streak is the defensive effort put forth every night. The team has played significantly better defense without Melo and Amare. Now they have to figure out a way to do so with those guys in the lineup. This is where D'Antoni has to earn his money.

P.S. Also the draft is an absolute crapshoot. For every Fields or Harrellson there is always a Jordan Hill or Jerome Jordan.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that, at the time of the trade, no one knew how the new CBA would shakeout. Many people thought a franchise tag and hard cap were around the corner. So getting a top 10 player on your team was key going forward.
 
I will take that challenge but first I want you to explain to me why it was a bad trade.

Firstly, Denver isnt actually doing as well as every anti melo trade guy seems to make it seem. The Nuggets are sitting in 6th place at 17-12, New York is 14-15. Hardly the disaster people are making it out to be. Let me remind everyone that a Melo lead Nuggets team made it to 2nd in the conference and they have never been out of the playoffs.

I mean, what did New York do of any reward before the Melo trade that you are hanging your hat on? I dont get it. It seems as though most people who think it was a bad trade are ironic extremely overrating what they had. I mean you are pretending its 1998 all over again when the Bucks drafted then traded Dirk for Tractor Traylor.

Its like you are valuating unknown factors while disregarding known facts. The fact is that New York was shit before the trade....now they are mediocre with a better "magically" potential having 1 superstar 1 star and now 1 pretty damn good PG.

Denver was at best 2nd in the conference and made the play offs every year and now they are mediocre with some "magically potential juice" that everyone seems to want.

You are going to have to better explain your reasoning for it being such a bad trade again because I am just not getting it. Until Dano starts leading the team to a powerhouse record in the west and gets them out of the first round of the playoffs you are going to have to come up with a better answer.
 
Again, it's not that it was a bad trade as far as trades go. Just that they probably could have landed him in the offseason as a free agent, and then picked and chose which of the supporting cast they wanted to keep around him and Amare.

But since they pulled the trade, they lost of a lot of supporting cast, so they struggled last year, and were struggling this year until Lin emerged out of nowhere. With Lin's emergence, everything my be fine and dandy now. But before they were struggling as Amare is only good with a great point guard to run the pick and roll against. And there's only so much an ISO player like Carmelo can do for a team.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']
You are going to have to better explain your reasoning for it being such a bad trade again because I am just not getting it. Until Dano starts leading the team to a powerhouse record in the west and gets them out of the first round of the playoffs you are going to have to come up with a better answer.[/QUOTE]

Well, until we see what the future picks turn out to be, no one can really say with certainty that it was a bad trade or not. When it comes out in the wash, Melo was traded for Galo, Mozgov, and Chandler. It's really the picks to me that they overcompensated with.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Another guy who thinks professional sports are played like 2K or fantasy. Move along...[/QUOTE]

Is that the best you got?
 
[quote name='docvinh']Well, until we see what the future picks turn out to be, no one can really say with certainty that it was a bad trade or not. When it comes out in the wash, Melo was traded for Galo, Mozgov, and Chandler. It's really the picks to me that they overcompensated with.[/QUOTE]

They traded Melo for Galo, Mazgov and picks. NY was not going to have money to sign Chandler so he was gone at the end of the season.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Again, it's not that it was a bad trade as far as trades go. Just that they probably could have landed him in the offseason as a free agent, and then picked and chose which of the supporting cast they wanted to keep around him and Amare.

But since they pulled the trade, they lost of a lot of supporting cast, so they struggled last year, and were struggling this year until Lin emerged out of nowhere. With Lin's emergence, everything my be fine and dandy now. But before they were struggling as Amare is only good with a great point guard to run the pick and roll against. And there's only so much an ISO player like Carmelo can do for a team.[/QUOTE]

Dmaul, I agree with the gist of your argument but there was a lot of pressure on Walsh to acquire a second star player. The NY media was riding him pretty hard. IMO, Walsh was of the opinion to wait until the summer to sign Melo and trade the other pieces for CP3. However, I think Zeke and Dolan forced his hand. At the end of the day the Knicks were going to have to acquire another star player. So the trade hurt us short term but it guaranteed us a second star player. The Knicks situation was not very different from what the heat did. The main difference being the Heat got way better players.
 
People keep forgetting New Jersey pretty much forced the knicks hands in pulling the trigger on the melo deal so they couldnt wait till the off season when jersey was ready to make a deal for melo AND melo was gonna sign the extension with them as well
 
[quote name='renique46']Against another shitty team no less![/QUOTE]

Sort of a lame argument, which seems to be the only thing people have left to say. These are all NBA teams. Anyone who can put up double-double after double-double is a legitimate player. I don't care if they are bad teams or not. Also, what was the reasoning behind him tearing about the Lakers? LA's a shitty team?
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Sort of a lame argument, which seems to be the only thing people have left to say. These are all NBA teams. Anyone who can put up double-double after double-double is a legitimate player. I don't care if they are bad teams or not. Also, what was the reasoning behind him tearing about the Lakers? LA's a shitty team?[/QUOTE]

They're old and were on the second night of a back-to-back. The point still stands, though. He's on an amazing run.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Sort of a lame argument, which seems to be the only thing people have left to say. These are all NBA teams. Anyone who can put up double-double after double-double is a legitimate player. I don't care if they are bad teams or not. Also, what was the reasoning behind him tearing about the Lakers? LA's a shitty team?[/QUOTE]

Derek fisher, nuff said
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']I will take that challenge but first I want you to explain to me why it was a bad trade.[/quote]
Melo wanted to go to NY. He made that clear. They tradied away their future for a guaranteed in the offseason. It was plain stupid. Starbury stupid. This is hands down why this trade was horrible for NY.

Firstly, Denver isnt actually doing as well as every anti melo trade guy seems to make it seem. The Nuggets are sitting in 6th place at 17-12, New York is 14-15. Hardly the disaster people are making it out to be. Let me remind everyone that a Melo lead Nuggets team made it to 2nd in the conference and they have never been out of the playoffs.
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Was it just Melo? That team had Chauncey Billups, JR Smith, and Nene. Only Nene currently remains on the team. Melo still kept Billups last year and never got anywhere close to Denver's record.

I mean, what did New York do of any reward before the Melo trade that you are hanging your hat on? I dont get it. It seems as though most people who think it was a bad trade are ironic extremely overrating what they had. I mean you are pretending its 1998 all over again when the Bucks drafted then traded Dirk for Tractor Traylor.
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It is the future. Guys that are great role players that can grow. The picks that could get them other good players. That is what they gave up for a non-defensive scorer that was planning on joining them in offseason anyways.

Its like you are valuating unknown factors while disregarding known facts. The fact is that New York was shit before the trade....now they are mediocre with a better "magically" potential having 1 superstar 1 star and now 1 pretty damn good PG.
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PG almost cut for the third time since entering the NBA, living on a coach at his brothers. Luck made that happen since the team was doing bad enough to try him out.
1 Superstar who wasn't part of the trade (Amare)...

So where did Melo fit in?
With Melo, the Knicks are 9-12 (excluded last since he only play 5 min). That isn't mediocre.

Denver was at best 2nd in the conference and made the play offs every year and now they are mediocre with some "magically potential juice" that everyone seems to want.

You are going to have to better explain your reasoning for it being such a bad trade again because I am just not getting it. Until Dano starts leading the team to a powerhouse record in the west and gets them out of the first round of the playoffs you are going to have to come up with a better answer.
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They were going to lose him anyways and pulled off a good trade. What they got out of it was the future... Dano, a solid shooter/starter and picks to expand the team.

Remember they are playing this level missing both JR Smith and Wilson Chandler (due to China contracts). Getting these guys back adds scoring.

Pull the facts... Lebron left Cleveland and it crumbled the franchise. Melo (#1 scorer on team) left with Billups (#2 scorer on team) and Denver was still a plus .500 playoff team.

PS Melo's last playoff season with Denver was a first round knockout; they were the higher seed.

[quote name='kill3r7']At the end of the day the Knicks were going to have to acquire another star player. So the trade hurt us short term but it guaranteed us a second star player. The Knicks situation was not very different from what the heat did. The main difference being the Heat got way better players. [/quote]
Different situation. Lebron signed offseason and at a reduction of his max so they already had their two superstars. Bosh had to be signed/dealt in order to get in. To NY, they had room to sign two superstars in the offseason. They choose to take Melo via the sign/trade and gave away their future in order to get Melo his top dollar.

[quote name='dmaul1114']Magic continue playing well of late, beat the 76ers 103-87 behind 27 points from Ryan Anderson.[/quote]
Anderson has been a bright point. I wish Dwight would just decide so the team could proceed. JJ has even been on record talking about how the trade stuff has clouded the team chemistry/leadership.
 
The Heat gutted their roster much in the same way the Knicks did via the trade. Regardless of whether the Knicks signed or traded for Melo, the end result would have been the same. Wilson Chandler would be allowed to walk at the end of the season. Most likely Galo, Felton and picks would be on the trading block. Probably not enough for CP3. Maybe enough to acquire a center. We wouldn't have been able to sign Chandler. At the end of the day the team would be about the same.
 
At this point I doubt they trade Dwight based on comments the owner made last week or the week before.

I think he may still leave, but I think the owner has mostly given up on trades since none of the offers have been very good. Guess he hopes that they can convince Dwight to stay in the offseason. i.e. make a push to get Deron Williams in Orlando, combined with the fact that Orlando can pay him more than any other team due to the free agency contract rules.
 
[quote name='kill3r7']The Heat gutted their roster much in the same way the Knicks did via the trade. [/QUOTE]

The difference was that they gutted the roster to free up cap room to go out and sign guys like Mike Miller, as well as keep people like Haslem, to put a solid supporting cast together.

They just got rid of players they didn't want anymore, and replaced them with ones they thought fit better around the big 3.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The difference was that they gutted the roster to free up cap room to go out and sign guys like Mike Miller, as well as keep people like Haslem, to put a solid supporting cast together.

They just got rid of players they didn't want anymore, and replaced them with ones they thought fit better around the big 3.[/QUOTE]

No they gutted their entire roster in hopes of signing the big 3. Only after signing the big 3 did they use the mid level exception to sign Miller. And the vet min to retain Haslam and a bunch of other vets. The Knicks would have had to do the same in order to acquire their version of the big 3. Be it CP3, Melo and A'mare or Melo, A'mare and Howard. The end result is still the same. From here on out both teams will be acquiring cheap pieces to fill out their roster since they are over the salary cap.
 
[quote name='kill3r7']No they gutted their entire roster in hopes of signing the big 3. Only after signing the big 3 did they use the mid level exception to sign Miller. And the vet min to retain Haslam and a bunch of other vets. The Knicks would have had to do the same in order to acquire their version of the big 3. Be it CP3, Melo and A'mare or Melo, A'mare and Howard. The end result is still the same. From here on out both teams will be acquiring cheap pieces to fill out their roster since they are over the salary cap.[/QUOTE]
Miami used their draft pick and got Cole who has paid off for them. The Knicks gave away those. Either way, Miami kept starters Wade, Anthony, and Chalmers and resigned both Jones and Haslem. Far from the gutting the roster like the Knicks did.

[quote name='dmaul1114']At this point I doubt they trade Dwight based on comments the owner made last week or the week before.

I think he may still leave, but I think the owner has mostly given up on trades since none of the offers have been very good. Guess he hopes that they can convince Dwight to stay in the offseason. i.e. make a push to get Deron Williams in Orlando, combined with the fact that Orlando can pay him more than any other team due to the free agency contract rules.[/quote]
Totally agree. I just wish Dwight would make his intentions clear so the teammates can trust him as a leader again.
 
[quote name='lordopus99']Miami used their draft pick and got Cole who has paid off for them. The Knicks gave away those. Either way, Miami kept starters Wade, Anthony, and Chalmers and resigned both Jones and Haslem. Far from the gutting the roster like the Knicks did.[/QUOTE]

A) Miami has a year head start on the Knicks.

B) Where do you think Shumpert and Harrellson came from?

C) Miami had no one on their roster after signing the big 3. Yes they retained certain pieces for way less than market value but they only did so after locking up the big 3.
 
[quote name='lordopus99']
Totally agree. I just wish Dwight would make his intentions clear so the teammates can trust him as a leader again.[/QUOTE]

Problem is, he's probably gone. So that's not going to help the leader angle.

I hope not, but I think he would have committed to staying by now if there was anyway he was going to.

I only see him staying if they:

1. Land Deron Williams before Howard signs somewhere else.
2. Fire Stan Van Gundy
3. Promise to give Howard more say in personnel moves (since that was his biggest gripe.

Big risk on 1 since they'd have to wait until the off season and risk Howard signing elsewhere first.

I'd have no problem with 2, but not sure the ownership will do it as they seem to like it. And it's hard to argue with his record. I'd be fine with him if he got an assistant to bring in a new offense.

Three I have issues with as that's the managements job. Player's should have no role beyond giving some input on who they'd like. Otherwise, shut up and play or just go elsewhere in free agency.
 
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