Pro-Choicers - Is *this* murder?

thrustbucket

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http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/570428.html

Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.

"I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique (ren-uh-LEEK') and the clinic owners.

The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision.

Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, called the allegations at best "misguided and incomplete" in an e-mail to The Associated Press. He didn't provide details.

The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.

"The baby was just treated as a piece of garbage," said Tom Brejcha, president of The Thomas More Society, a law firm that is also representing Williams. "People all over the country are just aghast."

Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

"It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics."

According to state records, Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York.

New York records show that Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings.

Several attempts to reach Renelique were unsuccessful. Some of his office numbers were disconnected, no home number could be found and he did not return messages left with his attorney.

Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. She declined an interview request made through him.

She concluded she didn't have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women's Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later.

Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department. She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006.

Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication.

The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.

"She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything."

The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.

Williams' lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby's umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message.

At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived.

An autopsy determined Williams' baby - she named her Shanice - had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity.

The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps.

The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique's license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.

Should prosecutors file murder charges, they'd have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said.

"Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual," Batey said. "And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case."

Is it murder?
If not, why?
If so, how?
 
That is so similar to abortion that I can't even figure it out! What a moral dilemma you have thrust upon me! I have to seriously ask myself: if I think abortion is ok, do I not also think that throwing a prematurely born baby out in a garbage bag is ok too?

Are you fucking serious?
 
[quote name='SpazX']That is so similar to abortion that I can't even figure it out! What a moral dilemma you have thrust upon me! I have to seriously ask myself: if I think abortion is ok, do I not also think that throwing a prematurely born baby out in a garbage bag is ok too?

Are you fucking serious?[/QUOTE]

Its thrust. Of course he is serious....seriously insane. The guy is so firm in his beliefs that he will twist things however they need to be twisted to feel justified.
 
I am 100% pro-choice, and this is murder. The doctor's staff fucked up and created a scenario where the fetus was to be removed from the mother's body prior to being terminated within the womb.

The fetus was essentially forced into the elements and as a result began to operate on its own separate from the mother, the beginning of life, in my eyes. The prosecution will be aiming to determine in the autopsy as to whether or not the baby took its first breath during this ordeal, and if it did I very much doubt that everyone in that office aside from the mother will be spending some time in jail.

I don't particularly see the doctor getting punishment aside from losing his license, he wasn't in the office. He may have ordered his assistants to dilate the mother prematurely (they should not be dilating her if he is not in the office, ready to go), but under no circumstances should anyone without a license be touching that woman unless it is to save her life.

~HotShotX
 
This wasn't murder at all. The little baby was just unwanted. Why should that woman have to live with a baby she didn't want. It's not her fault the abortion clinic messed up and didn't abort the baby right. That kid should not be her responsiblity.
 
Since this is a ridiculous thread and in honor of the news source.

Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo.
 
Definitely murder since it was alive outside the womb.

But interesting angle here is what happens if the baby lived? It was the abortion clinics fuck up that it lived. Should the mother still be responsible for the child in anyway? Or is it up to the clinic to deal with finding a home for the child since the mother didn't want it and it's their fault they screwed up the abortion?

And does the mother bear any responsibility for the murder, since it was an employee who cut the umbilical cord and stuffed it in a bag?
 
How long is 23 weeks?

Edit: BTW, while were on the subject... Why the fuck is nobody talking about that mother of "too many" that just had untenthplets and there's no father and she's broke with no job, but demanding to be a spokesman for children and earn millions just because she had all these babies?
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']How long is 23 weeks?[/QUOTE]

You seriously have to ask that?

23/4= 5.75.

So not quite 6 months. So just around the end of the 2nd trimester.
 
[quote name='SpazX']That is so similar to abortion that I can't even figure it out! What a moral dilemma you have thrust upon me! I have to seriously ask myself: if I think abortion is ok, do I not also think that throwing a prematurely born baby out in a garbage bag is ok too?

Are you fucking serious?[/quote]
I don't normally do this but what the hell...

/thread

Seriously thrusty, your threads just keep getting worse and worse. Take a couple laps or something.
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']I don't normally do this but what the hell...

/thread

Seriously thrusty, your threads just keep getting worse and worse. Take a couple laps or something.[/QUOTE]

Then put me on ignore already, I'd hate for you to suffer.
*************

So the consensus of this thread so far is that the difference between murder and legal birth control is a matter of seconds and centimeters.

As someone that sees no difference between crushing someones head inside a womb or being bled to death outside the womb after one breath 5 second slater, I find these answers somewhat interesting.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']And does the mother bear any responsibility for the murder, since it was an employee who cut the umbilical cord and stuffed it in a bag?[/QUOTE]

Unless there is more to the story than in the article, it seems like the mother is certainly not at fault (at least under the law, which allows murdering a baby before birth). But if the article is accurate the guy who cut the umbilical cord murdered the baby. The missing doctor obviously has some legal troubles as well, although not murder charges like the employee. How these butcheries are allowed to exist is our eternal shame.

[quote name='thrustbucket']I find these answers somewhat interesting.[/QUOTE]

Rule #1 in abortion debates: never expect pro-abortion rationalizations to make sense.
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']The "mother" obviously has no clue what she's doing since she got pregnant at 18...[/QUOTE]

Why did you put quotes around mother? (curious)
 
Just because she had a kid doesn't make her any smarter, more mature, and responsible. Like the mom with a 1000 kids...
 
Certainly detestable and people (sounds like the manager, not the doctor) should be charged.. but I have trouble clumping infanticide in with the murder of adults, I don't feel the killing of a premature baby deserves to be described with the same word as killing a conscious adult. If the allegations are accurate, it's certainly infanticide and disturbing.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']So the consensus of this thread so far is that the difference between murder and legal birth control is a matter of seconds and centimeters.

As someone that sees no difference between crushing someones head inside a womb or being bled to death outside the womb after one breath 5 second slater, I find these answers somewhat interesting.[/quote]

The point of an abortion is to not carry to birth a child which the mother does not want. If the baby has been born and the mother does not want it, then the baby is ______.

Fill in the blank (it's actually multiple words, if you're having trouble).

In that particular case the baby would actually be taken to some kind of intensive care and then it would probably die anyway, but if it made it, then you would _____.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']The missing doctor obviously has some legal troubles as well.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious what legal troubles you think he has.
 
My concept of the legality/illegality of abortion is this: if you're anti-abortion, you support the gov't forcing, by law, a woman to give birth. Here I thought Thrust n' his righty/libertarian homies are all about the individual triumphing over the big bad federalies.

Lawl.
 
[quote name='Hex']My concept of the legality/illegality of abortion is this: if you're anti-abortion, you support the gov't forcing, by law, a woman to give birth. Here I thought Thrust n' his righty/libertarian homies are all about the individual triumphing over the big bad federalies.
[/QUOTE]

It's more simple than that. My righty/libertarian sensibilities prioritize an individuals right to simply live over an individuals rights to choose and plan a convenient life. That's all.

Remember, one of the few things libertarians believe government should do is protect and defend the lives of the innocent, without clauses.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm curious what legal troubles you think he has.[/QUOTE]

If it's his clinic he may have legal issues with not being present in the room during an abortion. If he just works there then I doubt there are any legal issues and it would all be on the other employee who was present and the clinic owner/main doctor etc.
 
That's contingent upon whether or not it's legally determined that an "abortion" happened, due to the order of events. There's always potential for liability, no matter how farfetched. I'm just curious if there was something that isn't a logical jump I was overlooking.
 
Well the lady was there for an abortion, and the doctor wasn't present during the attempt.

I'd imagine there is some ramification/liability for the main doctor/clinic owner for not having a doctor present during an attempted abortion, a delivery or whatever it ends up being called.
 
[quote name='HovaEscobar']So you can't plan a convenient life with birth control?[/QUOTE]

Of course you can, and should. But abortion isn't birth control.
 
I'd talk about responsibility, but these days it's a waste of time. It's just you give them a reason to do it more without consequence they will.

Look at the lady with a 1000 kids...
 
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I hate the term "pro abortion." I don't think may people actively support or promote abortions.

I think most of us pro choice folks want to see everything possible done to prevent unwanted pregnancies and minimize abortions. Sex education, freely available birth control and condoms, promotion of adoption, etc. etc.

Supporting the legality of abortion doesn't mean you actively support the behavior. I think all drugs should be legalized, but that doesn't mean I'm pro heroin or pro cocaine etc.
 
The article makes it sound like murder, I think we need to hear more sides of the story though (emotions are high and the doc is innocent until proven guilty and all that)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm curious what legal troubles you think he has.[/QUOTE]

Malpractice at the very least. I'm not a lawyer, but I would expect he might have some responsibility for his staff's actions (perhaps this depends on what the policies and procedures were at his clinic).
 
[quote name='Hex']My concept of the legality/illegality of abortion is this: if you're anti-abortion, you support the gov't forcing, by law, a woman to give birth. Here I thought Thrust n' his righty/libertarian homies are all about the individual triumphing over the big bad federalies.

Lawl.[/QUOTE]

Of course, when you distort the picture enough, you get your viewpoint as written above. It's much more accurate to say if you're anti-abortion, you support the government not allowing the premeditated murder of unborn children. Of course, that reality sounds much worse than your rationalization above.
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']Just because she had a kid doesn't make her any smarter, more mature, and responsible. Like the mom with a 1000 kids...[/QUOTE]

Not that it matters much, but unfortunately you don't have to be smart, mature and responsible to be a mother.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Of course, when you distort the picture enough, you get your viewpoint as written above. It's much more accurate to say if you're anti-abortion, you support the government not allowing the premeditated murder of unborn children. Of course, that reality sounds much worse than your rationalization above.[/quote]

What color is the sky in your "reality"
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']If you are pro-abortion, isn't this just another example of why the morning after pill should be more readily available.[/quote]
yes but "pro-life" people usually don't take the time to understand the mourning after pill prevents the sperm from fertilizing an egg and thus preventing conception. No conception equal no life in almost anyway one views it. But hey let's just call it abortion too.
 
Could the child have survived being delivered 3-4 months early?

Not to imply that if it couldn't that it wasn't murder, but if it couldn't, I see nothing wrong with the end result, though the act could have been different.
 
"At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived."
 
What does that even mean?

Slim but legit?

The child only has a 2% chance of living but its a really solid 2%!

I'm guessing that's a quote from the article, so not trying to shoot the messenger, but wth.
 
[quote name='gareman']yes but "pro-life" people usually don't take the time to understand the mourning after pill prevents the sperm from fertilizing an egg and thus preventing conception. No conception equal no life in almost anyway one views it. But hey let's just call it abortion too.[/QUOTE]

Don't generalize. Some pro-life people may think that way, but I am pro-life and I think the morning-after pill should be widely available and its use encouraged. Every time the morning-after pill prevents a baby being killed later through abortion is a huge win for mankind.
 
Right. Not everyone who thinks abortion should be illegal also thinks the same thing about contraception. In fact, those types of people are our allies, in fact. Abortion is a black-and-white issue to some, and we may never convince elprincipe that abortion isn't murder.

So let's just not try, shall we? Instead, people like him are useful to discuss potential ways and means we agree on to try to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies such that abortions naturally decline. Not wholly political enemies in the slightest.

pro-life or pro-choice is a difficult and sometimes meaningless debate to have, I feel. Why not focus on what we all have in common: that we'd like people to want to have the children they become pregnant with.
 
[quote name='gareman']yes but "pro-life" people usually don't take the time to understand the mourning after pill prevents the sperm from fertilizing an egg and thus preventing conception. No conception equal no life in almost anyway one views it. But hey let's just call it abortion too.[/quote]

I admit that I never looked into how the morning after pill works. I know Dr. Drew from Love Line was a supporter and hated when people called it a form of abortion.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Don't generalize. Some pro-life people may think that way, but I am pro-life and I think the morning-after pill should be widely available and its use encouraged. Every time the morning-after pill prevents a baby being killed later through abortion is a huge win for mankind.[/quote]


that's why I said "usually", its completely anecdotal but every person whom I have talked to that is against abortion has been against the mourning after pill.

I do very much appreciate the fact that there are people out there that don't lump plan B in with abortion.
 
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