Pro Wrestling discussion topic--WWE, AEW, ROH, Impact, New Japan, indies

I don't mind that Charlotte won, I'm happy with her being the first women's champ. I'm tired of the same "Ric does something" win. When he took the bump I thought it meant we'd get an actual ending. I would have been fine with Sasha not making it back to break it up without Ric's help. Make it a strong performance from Charlotte and Becky is out of the picture for a while and gets to work with the non-callup roster. 

I don't mind Roman being champ, but I don't care about him. Which is a problem for them. I'm more annoyed with the reliance on legends shitting on current performers. Rock builds Bray up before punking them. League stands tall and then gets owned by 3 guys that can barely move. I was amazed to see Austin actually giving stunners because I thought it was dangerous for him.

They're doing BOGO on shirts today, which is usually the only time I ever buy (because this is CAG, fuck regular price). But I'm going to wait for Raw to see if I actually want to give them any more money (although my gf will likely want Asuka and American Alpha shirts). Smarkamania can do a lot to make things better, but I have very little faith that they'll get much right.

 
The heels did get their comeuppance. Kevin Owens and Triple H.

So they booked just like you said, just not with the persons you wanted (I'm guessing).

EDIT: Yeah, I can get with you on the Rock shows up for his one-day-a-year payday to bury the entire Wyatt family. It's certainly got to fuck with the morale of the dudes on the road 300+ days a year that they have to roll over for Rocky.

 
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Last night was weird for me, I liked a lot of the in-ring action, the matches were overall pretty good and entertained me (the ME was not a great match, especially for a WM headliner) but the outcomes were baffling to me.  While it was cool to see and I was happy for him, Ryder winning makes less than zero sense and cheapens the IC title.  You know he won't hold onto it for long (I'd bet he loses it tonight on RAW) so what the hell does it accomplish?  Jericho beating Styles makes no sense on so many levels, Jericho lost 2 years ago to FANDANGO but beats Styles???  That's a great way to make your huge new acquisition look like a dope.  While I don't like Charlotte winning that one I can at least understand.  New Day losing makes them look bad, then on top of that they look like morons getting beat up by three retired HoFer's.  Shane losing seems to make the entire storyline worthless, although they could pull something off to fix that tonight.  That match really needed to have a run-in or two, some flavor added to it.  I really liked Corbin winning the Battle Royal, smart move there.  I don't hate Roman winning but they needed to have some kind of wrinkle thrown in, having him win cleanly without anything major happening was a huge goof on their part.  Overall the show was entertaining but the victors left a lot to be desired.

Also as a side note, I finally watched Takeover today, damn good show that was.  I haven't really watched NXT since last Summer so i'm new to a lot of the wrestlers there now.  The tag title match was really great, I've always liked Jason Jordan so I'm happy to see him as part of a great tag team.  Nakamura, Zayn was awesome but no surprise there.  Has Baron Corbin improved drastically in the last 9 months or is it just me?  I really liked his match with Aries, came off as very physical on tv.

 
I agree with KaneRobot and ZForce for the most part. I felt like WrestleMania should have been Sasha's big victory. Even a Becky Lynch win would have been perfectly fine.
 
Matt Young said:
I agree with KaneRobot and ZForce for the most part. I felt like WrestleMania should have been Sasha's big victory. Even a Becky Lynch win would have been perfectly fine.
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Everything about the build-up to the match was basically, "Get ready/excited for Sasha's big moment!" Ripping that away from fans after getting them excited for it just doesn't seem like good or clever storytelling to me. It's as if the finale of a show ended with no climax at all, because they didn't have any ideas for a new antagonist or story. So what we really got was, "Tune in next season for some more of this same thing you already saw!" Who would tune in to that show?

(We would, because we're masochists who love the pain.)

 
The disclaimer about fan reactions right at the start of the show? That's a bad sign of what they expect to happen.

 
mykevermin said:
I tuned in a few minutes in. What did I miss?
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Basically the announce crew were talking about how the post Wrestlemania Raw crowd is your non-traditional audience. That they are very vocal throughout the night. Basically saying "This crowd doesn't count. Don't listen to them."

I like the post Wrestlemania Raw crowd except for when they start doing the "We are awesome" chants. That's just irritating.

"This crowd cheers people they normally boo, and boo people they normally cheer." JBL has Vince's hand up his ass.

Don't mute our voices sign in the crowd. I like it.

 
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Yeah yeah yeah. I just heard them while Reigns was coming out. Using very deliberate language to dismiss the crowd - saying they're "passionate."

I mean, on one hand, maybe the figures don't lie. Maybe their numbers show Roman shirts flying off the shelves, and ratings going up for his segment and down for others. We don't see the figures they do. The public facing element of it - in particular the tampering with the crowd noise last night - woof, that just paints a picture of someone very overtly trying to not listen to the crowd. A company going so far as to actively say "you - we're not listening to you."

 
People need to just stop watching and cancel you subscription if they want change to happen. eah youll miss nxt for a while but you can live with it.

 
Liquid Metal said:
People need to just stop watching and cancel you subscription if they want change to happen. eah youll miss nxt for a while but you can live with it.
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Nope they can boycott the Network like I have for all but 3 months of its existence (2014 SS Sting through RR 2015) and watch NXT on Hulu. Even Takeover London/Dallas was on there after Tokyo/Brooklyn weren't. Plus EVERY NXT episode is on there, from all the game show years through the Florida years into the NXT rebranding.

Watching Takeover Dallas legally on Saturday night after coming back from my 2nd Magic The Gathering prerelease of the weekend was a welcome surprise.

 
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mykevermin said:
Why was the finish deflating? I saw a bunch of people bitching on twitter about it, too.
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There were also people complaining b/c "Charlotte needed a man to help her win."

IMO that's people looking for fuel to give Anita S. or something; it's just a reversal of the traditional heel champion w/heel manager gender roles. Steph handed HHH a sledgehammer an hour later and those same people didn't complain. How many female managers have won/retained championships for their male "employers" over the years.

Now if you critique it by saying Becky and Sasha should have had someone come to neutralize Flair from a psychological standpoint I can agree with that, but I'm assuming the finish was to make Sasha "look strong" since Flair pinned her down outside the ring.

I sense a several-month feud leading to a title change at MitB maybe? Don't think they'll wait for SS.

 
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I don't know... I just don't really like Ric getting physical with women his daughter's age and younger. Heck, Sasha Banks is young enough to be his granddaughter. It's also not like this was a one-off, this has been going on for months cuminating in the creepyness factor when he forcably kissed Becky Lynch (who is the same age as his daughter) not so long ago. I just find the whole thing creepy as fuck.​

That said, the match was good so even though I didn't like the finish, Flair grabbing onto Sasha didn't ruin the match for me. It just felt like Sasha's night and she was clearly the star of that match. I understand the logic behind having Ric Flair's daughter as the first Women's Champion, but Sasha Banks had the better match IMO.

I just don't like the creepy grandpa gimmick Ric Flair has going on right now.  

 
I think the "legend" of the Raw after Mania is getting deflated pretty quickly. This year and last really were not anything special. Yeah, the crowd is still up for it which is nice, but the only thing that felt fresh last night was Enzo/Cass. The Crews and Corbin debuts seemed totally pedestrian for incoming good guy and monster bad guy, respectively. Too bad, R.A.M. has been something fairly reliable since the Raw after WM 11.

Holy shit at the heat during that Reigns promo. That may be the angriest I've ever seen a crowd at a WWE show. They wouldn't even let the dude talk. I can't imagine the crowd reaction Rollins would have received if he was ready to go and interrupted him.

 
great to see some new blood called up.. and AJ rising... but for a post mania show it felt like something was missing. No big name debuts, etc.

 
MSUHitman said:
There were also people complaining b/c "Charlotte needed a man to help her win."

IMO that's people looking for fuel to give Anita S. or something.
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Anita Sarkeesian has been subjected to a boatload of absolutely despicable harassment, so maybe she's not the best person to bring up to try to discredit feminism?

I mean, let's be honest: wrestling historically treats women like absolute shit. Now that we're applauding match quality that doesn't take away that wrestling is incredibly sexist in the first place. Does that dude still post raw reviews here with all the tits and ass photos? He's been on my ignore list for ages.

That's not to say that I find feminist critiques of this match finish valid - IMO, Flair gonna Flair. It's a family legacy to cheat to win/retain titles, she's just keeping tradition alive (not to mention how many countless, countless men's titles he's helped dudes retain via interference). I find the feminist critique of this match finish wrongheaded, but I typically find feminist critique of pro wrestling is pretty spot on.

 
I like the WM and post Raw WM crowds. BUT there was absolutely no reason for them to crap all over the women's title segment. I don't care if they want to see Bailey or not, it was very disrespectful in a genuine good segment. 

Bailey - who, IMO, would need a gimmick change if called up. I highly doubt "the hugger" would be well received to non-NXT viewers. 

 
Cage017 said:
I like the WM and post Raw WM crowds. BUT there was absolutely no reason for them to crap all over the women's title segment. I don't care if they want to see Bailey or not, it was very disrespectful in a genuine good segment.

Bailey - who, IMO, would need a gimmick change if called up. I highly doubt "the hugger" would be well received to non-NXT viewers.
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I get what you're saying, but I think Bayley is the exception to the rule. She's that good.

Plus, NXT is really starting to bleed over into the main roster - in terms of audience I mean. It's still got miles and miles to go before it's the majority or even half of the audience at Raw, but it's a lot further along than it was at this time a year ago.

I also wouldn't say they really crapped on the segment. It was obvious Charlotte wasn't being particularly sincere in her speech and was leading to getting all heel-y by the end, and the crowd actually wound up being pretty respectful anyway after they got the singing out of their system.

Would have preferred Sasha or Becky to be the one people were yelling for, but whatever.

 
Cage017 said:
I like the WM and post Raw WM crowds. BUT there was absolutely no reason for them to crap all over the women's title segment. I don't care if they want to see Bailey or not, it was very disrespectful in a genuine good segment.

Bailey - who, IMO, would need a gimmick change if called up. I highly doubt "the hugger" would be well received to non-NXT viewers.
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I definitely don't think Bayley needs a gimmick change. She is arguably the most over babyface in the entire company and when she debuts on the main roster it will be a big deal. Everyone wants to get a hug from Bayley and I personally think she has the potential to be one of the faces of the company for years to come.

 
She's okay. Great entrance but not fond of her in ring work for the most part. Some of her moves look really weak and loose imo. She can work a match, i just wish her moves looked better and more brutal than they do.
 
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4thHorseman said:
She's okay. Great entrance but not fond of her in ring work for the most part. Some of her moves look really weak and loose imo. She can work a match, i just wish her moves looked better and more brutal than they do.
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Bayley doesn't need to be more brutal considering her character and having things like children cry when she loses and leave the arena. The times when she does (working the leg of Asuka, stomping on Sasha Banks while having her in a submission) work for the story in the ring, but overall she's fine where she's at I'd say. I Mean, people are all fine and accept that her finisher is just a belly to belly suplex so all the more reason I say she's good wrestling and character wise.

 
bardockkun said:
Bayley doesn't need to be more brutal considering her character and having things like children cry when she loses and leave the arena. The times when she does (working the leg of Asuka, stomping on Sasha Banks while having her in a submission) work for the story in the ring, but overall she's fine where she's at I'd say. I Mean, people are all fine and accept that her finisher is just a belly to belly suplex so all the more reason I say she's good wrestling and character wise.
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Brutal probably wasnt the best word to describe what I want. I just want them to look convincing. To me, they look bad (elbows in particular). Like, borderline "Diva" bad in terms of looseness. I just want them to look like a move that would actually be effective instead of something they should shrug off, and thats not something about her that has won me over.

Character wise? She is a fantastic face and shouldnt change that. I dont know if she has ever been heel before (I didnt start watching NXT until Owens turn on Zayne), but I cant picture her as anything other than a face.
 
4thHorseman said:
Brutal probably wasnt the best word to describe what I want. I just want them to look convincing. To me, they look bad (elbows in particular). Like, borderline "Diva" bad in terms of looseness. I just want them to look like a move that would actually be effective instead of something they should shrug off, and thats not something about her that has won me over.

Character wise? She is a fantastic face and shouldnt change that. I dont know if she has ever been heel before (I didnt start watching NXT until Owens turn on Zayne), but I cant picture her as anything other than a face.
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Bayley has always been a face in NXT. When she first started showing up on TV she was playing up the "I am a wrestling mark and I am stoked to be here" persona. She'd interact with legends and superstars with sheer excitement like a super fan meeting them for the first time. She hasn't ventured far from that path since.

 
I dunno, has she really done the "excited and hugging everybody" thing lately? Seems like she's less fangirlish and more...I dunno, "nice person who tries hard," if that's a gimmick.

I definitely don't watch NXT every week though, so correct me if I'm wrong. You're right that's it's not a major shift or anything, but she does seem a little less geeky now.

 
KaneRobot said:
I dunno, has she really done the "excited and hugging everybody" thing lately? Seems like she's less fangirlish and more...I dunno, "nice person who tries hard," if that's a gimmick.

I definitely don't watch NXT every week though, so correct me if I'm wrong. You're right that's it's not a major shift or anything, but she does seem a little less geeky now.
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You are right, she is definitely much less of a fan girl these days and she is also not as much of a geek.

 
4thHorseman said:
Brutal probably wasnt the best word to describe what I want. I just want them to look convincing. To me, they look bad (elbows in particular). Like, borderline "Diva" bad in terms of looseness. I just want them to look like a move that would actually be effective instead of something they should shrug off, and thats not something about her that has won me over.

Character wise? She is a fantastic face and shouldnt change that. I dont know if she has ever been heel before (I didnt start watching NXT until Owens turn on Zayne), but I cant picture her as anything other than a face.
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I Think she's fine in that regard as well. Then again comparing her to the dark ages of "Diva's Wrestling" where Laycool and Bella's and such were the draws of that division I can't see any flaws in her work style compared to them.

And watching Network, I enjoy how from mid 90's to mid-2000's that anyone who does kicks that aren't straight to the gut were considered to have "a martial arts background", while now people who do elbows and knees while standing or in a grapple they now have "a mixed martial arts background".

 
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A Bayley heel turn would probably be phenomenal and easy.  

Heeeeey Bailey, I wanna know, if you'll be my girl.  

Hell no!  What makes you fat, sweaty, pimple assed nerds think you'd have a chance with me?  I've just been using you to get over and get to the big time!

 
I don't think she could pull off rude well.

I do see her succeeding more like cuddle-you-to-death. Like the Elmyra character from Animaniacs, mixed with a little Mongo from Blazing Saddles.

 
KillerRamen said:
I thought she was from Pinkie, Elmyra and the Brain... :p
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mitch079 said:
A Bayley heel turn would probably be phenomenal and easy.

Heeeeey Bailey, I wanna know, if you'll be my girl.

Hell no! What makes you fat, sweaty, pimple assed nerds think you'd have a chance with me? I've just been using you to get over and get to the big time!
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Without actually saying as much, she already kind of has to do that when 30-something neckbeards with an aisle seat want to "hug" her on her entrance.

 
Her avoiding those cats make me like her more, actually.

bardrockkun, you win the world with that gif, buddy.

I'm humbled and admit my cartoon faux pas.

 
KaneRobot said:
Without actually saying as much, she already kind of has to do that when 30-something neckbeards with an aisle seat want to "hug" her on her entrance.
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Yeah, I remember seeing this at an NXT show recently, where some dude grabbed her for a hug despite her DEFINITELY not wanting to hug him and she just kind of had to grin and bear it despite how uncomfortable she was. Gotta be the worst part of the job.

 
I know I'm a week late, but I ended up going to Wrestlemania and enjoying the shit out of it. It was definitely one of the most fun events I've been to. I know the card was shit, and some of the matches didn't live up to the "hype", but overall as an experience, it was pretty cool. The pop that Austin got when that music hit -- fucking awesome. Cena's pop was on par, if not a little louder than Austin's. I had goosebumps during both just from being in that atmosphere and feeling the energy that both of them brought from the crowd.

I actually left after seeing Triple H's and Reigns' entrances to beat traffic. I had a 3 hour drive ahead of me, and didn't feel like waiting in the parking lot for half of the night -- plus we all knew the outcome and how the show would end.

That being said, I'll definitely be looking to go to Orlando for Wrestlemania 33.

Until then, NXT is coming to Oklahoma City next month. I already have my tickets, and look forward to seeing Nakamura, Balor, etc.

 
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