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[quote name='superdry']Mamoru-kun is being redone for the PS3. Not so much as a bullet-hell shooter, but more like Pocky and Rocky (Kiki Kaikai).

Just to add to the discussion:
CAVE and 5pb wanted to release games on XBLA, but Microsoft denied them (something about cutting down on faithful arcade ports for XBLA)...thus the games getting a retail release. In way, it was a blessing getting these game as retail packages instead of downloading them. It jives more with the collector mentality shmup players have.

I do wonder why MS ok'd Guwange for XBLA....[/QUOTE]It's probably the same story... as a console loses it's new "shine" after it's initial release, the platform owner can't be as picky, they just want the money to keep flowing. IIRC back when the 360 launched all the 360 games had to run at at least 720p native. Now you've got games like Halo that run at a lower resolution. Regardless of whatever politics are involved... as long as we get more Cave games on XBLA I'm down for that. :)
 
[quote name='sherisdoppel']Not really. Sony had Cave had a trouble.
Sony requires any shooters to achieve certain "quality" and apparently they don't think of Cave's shooters as one of the kind.
They are very strict about this type of genre.[/QUOTE]

Q: A lot of my readers asked why isn’t Cave releasing games on (insert platform here). Instead of listing those out, why did Cave pick Xbox 360 and iPhone OS as their primary platforms?

A: With regards to the Xbox 360, CAVE’s main target is the domestic audience. Here in Japan, the Xbox 360 has the largest concentration of shooter players, and that’s the main reason we keep releasing games for it. Guwange is a new business model for us, and we will be testing the XBLA waters with its release.

...

Q: Since it was requested so much by my readers I have to ask… why isn’t Cave releasing games on PSN?

A: We don’t think there are more users who are interested in our games on PSN than there are on XBLA.
Click to expand...
Source Granted there's most likely more to it than what Cave is letting on to...
 
[quote name='insektmute']Hella excited for my copy to show up. Between this and Espgaluda II being region-free, and Guwange and DeathSmiles being localized, I'm really hoping this is a sign that Cave wants to bring more over. I won't get my hopes up, but it would especially nice if we could get Pink Sweets & Muchi Muchi Pork and/or DoDonPachi Daifakkatsu over here.[/QUOTE]

I was hoping Aksys would have worked out some kind of long term deal with Cave, but it seems they just went for one and done with Deathsmiles. Very disappointing, as Deathsmiles started to get people interested in the shmup genre again only for the US to stagnate with the releases (again.)

I'm sure Cave would like to release more games over here but they would need to team up with a US publisher to do it for the disc based releases.
 
[quote name='animalspinners']I was hoping Aksys would have worked out some kind of long term deal with Cave, but it seems they just went for one and done with Deathsmiles. Very disappointing, as Deathsmiles started to get people interested in the shmup genre again only for the US to stagnate with the releases (again.)

I'm sure Cave would like to release more games over here but they would need to team up with a US publisher to do it for the disc based releases.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I was disappointed that didn't develop into a more regular partnership. As much as I like seeing Guwange come out over here too, it's unfortunate that a lot of arcade games are being relegated to XBLA/PSN instead of getting a proper disc release.

Then again, considering how often I run across comments about a game being "too Japanese" or whining that 2D sprites look "jaggy", it's not too surprising. IGN's cringe-inducing review of DeathSmiles says a lot about the state of things.
 
[quote name='insektmute']Yeah, I was disappointed that didn't develop into a more regular partnership. As much as I like seeing Guwange come out over here too, it's unfortunate that a lot of arcade games are being relegated to XBLA/PSN instead of getting a proper disc release.

Then again, considering how often I run across comments about a game being "too Japanese" or whining that 2D sprites look "jaggy", it's not too surprising. IGN's cringe-inducing review of DeathSmiles says a lot about the state of things.[/QUOTE]

Well I don't understand why they can't print up the games that are already disk released in JP? Futari is already ported and just need to be localized. Deathsmiles 2 already done just needs to be localized....etc
 
[quote name='joshnorm']Well I don't understand why they can't print up the games that are already disk released in JP? Futari is already ported and just need to be localized. Deathsmiles 2 already done just needs to be localized....etc[/QUOTE]

Cave does not have the money to handle publishing duties in the US. They need a publisher to help them localize, make the discs and to secure the store space needed for this. That stuff doesn't come cheap.

These games are so niche that most publishers don't want to take a chance. Aksys took a chance but had to pad the game out with a bunch of extras just to get sales.
 
[quote name='animalspinners']Cave does not have the money to handle publishing duties in the US. They need a publisher to help them localize, make the discs and to secure the store space needed for this. That stuff doesn't come cheap.

These games are so niche that most publishers don't want to take a chance. Aksys took a chance but had to pad the game out with a bunch of extras just to get sales.[/QUOTE]

I highly doubt the crappy cd and the faceplate made anyone that wasn't planning on purchasing the game buy the LE. There's a standard edition now anyways that is selling alright.
 
To be honest, and especially if the download games are going to be as cheap as Guwange, I'd much rather Cave's games come over as XLBA titles. Mind you, I love Deathsmiles, but i really don't know that a disc based release was necessary. Heck, I have it on my HDD anyway, but I still have to put the disc in to play it. I'd rather it was just a download, and one I'd paid $10 for. $10 is a lot less then $50/$30. I'm not planning to sell the game, so resaleability isn't relevant to me in this case, and if I ever lose my hard drive (I mean, if it fails) I'm going to have to buy a replacement copy of the game because mine is pretty badly scratched (due to having kids :). I'm not really feeling the love for the DVD format for Cave shooters.

P.S. M. Bug Panic is pretty damn fun on iOS. Highly recommended if you have an iOS device. Totally different from other Cave games and also very different from normal "dual-stick shooters". Really fun. Perhaps not as challenging as the hard core Cave players might want, but for me it's perfect.

P.S.S. I put in an order for Mushihimsama Futari Ver. 1.5 the other day, but it won't ship until the Pokemon Black/White soundtrack is available. Hope it isn't too long of a wait....
 
[quote name='animalspinners']I was hoping Aksys would have worked out some kind of long term deal with Cave, but it seems they just went for one and done with Deathsmiles. Very disappointing, as Deathsmiles started to get people interested in the shmup genre again only for the US to stagnate with the releases (again.)

I'm sure Cave would like to release more games over here but they would need to team up with a US publisher to do it for the disc based releases.[/QUOTE]

It hasn't been that long since Deathsmiles came out. My guess? Aksys worked out a deal for one title, because they didn't want to commit themselves to more not knowing whether the market would support it. The question now is whether the market supported Deathsmiles to the extent that Aksys was hoping or not.

If it did, and they want to license more . . . hey, Aksys is a small company, and localizing a game takes time and effort. They're not going to just start pouring them out like they're nothing, it'll take a little while. It might not be the first thing on their plate or their top priority either. But if it was successful, I think we'll see more when they can get to it.

If it wasn't as successful as they hoped, then who could blame them for not wanting to do more?

Alternately, Cave seems to be trying to work direct inroads into the US iPhone/iPod/iPad market. Maybe they're intentionally holding onto the licenses themselves in case they want to do so with the XBox 360 market as well.
 
[quote name='insektmute']
Then again, considering how often I run across comments about a game being "too Japanese" or whining that 2D sprites look "jaggy", it's not too surprising. IGN's cringe-inducing review of DeathSmiles says a lot about the state of things.[/QUOTE]



That's a more generous review than hardcore shmup fans have given the game.
 
[quote name='insektmute']Then again, considering how often I run across comments about a game being "too Japanese" or whining that 2D sprites look "jaggy", it's not too surprising. IGN's cringe-inducing review of DeathSmiles says a lot about the state of things.[/QUOTE]

Dude, Guwange is as eastern as LotR is western, and Deathsmiles practically bent over backwards for the pedo market. You can't aim directly at the niche and then complain when mainstreamers don't take you seriously.

And IGN's review is pretty typical of what I would expect an average gaming magazine to give a shmup. There's simply not a lot to say about the dot-dodging genre unless you worship at the altar of scoring systems and 1ccs, and only the folks in that tiny niche give a rat's ass.

The average player would clock Deathsmiles in probably 15-20 continues at least. For someone like that, for whom the 1cc is probably a joke, to tell him you're supposed to grind at it until you get a 1cc or a better score, he'll tell you where you can stick the disc and expect you to give him his $50 back, minus the dollar or three he would have slammed into the arcade machine. It's absurd to expect such a thing.

Like I said, you can NOT go full bore into the niche and then turn around and cry that you're not getting messianic reception from gamers who aren't already cuddling their imported EG2s and Mushihmamdsighmaie disks as they drift off to bullet riddled dreams. The sheer ARROGANCE of shmup fans in this regard irks me to no end.
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']Deathsmiles practically bent over backwards for the pedo market. [/QUOTE]


:speaktothehand: Please tell us you're not serious.
 
[quote name='animalspinners']Cave does not have the money to handle publishing duties in the US. They need a publisher to help them localize, make the discs and to secure the store space needed for this. That stuff doesn't come cheap.

These games are so niche that most publishers don't want to take a chance. Aksys took a chance but had to pad the game out with a bunch of extras just to get sales.[/QUOTE]

But ASKY will put out Ultra Naughty Editions of RPGs.... I am not complaining I just think that Deathsmiles must have sold to expectations. Its a niche title so they had to expect

[quote name='crunchewy']To be honest, and especially if the download games are going to be as cheap as Guwange, I'd much rather Cave's games come over as XLBA titles. Mind you, I love Deathsmiles, but i really don't know that a disc based release was necessary. Heck, I have it on my HDD anyway, but I still have to put the disc in to play it. I'd rather it was just a download, and one I'd paid $10 for. $10 is a lot less then $50/$30. I'm not planning to sell the game, so resaleability isn't relevant to me in this case, and if I ever lose my hard drive (I mean, if it fails) I'm going to have to buy a replacement copy of the game because mine is pretty badly scratched (due to having kids :). I'm not really feeling the love for the DVD format for Cave shooters.

P.S. M. Bug Panic is pretty damn fun on iOS. Highly recommended if you have an iOS device. Totally different from other Cave games and also very different from normal "dual-stick shooters". Really fun. Perhaps not as challenging as the hard core Cave players might want, but for me it's perfect.

P.S.S. I put in an order for Mushihimsama Futari Ver. 1.5 the other day, but it won't ship until the Pokemon Black/White soundtrack is available. Hope it isn't too long of a wait....[/QUOTE]

I load a bunch of my shit on my HD but I still would rather get a physical copy of something so that it wont go away (Doom, UK3, Smash TV being examples).

Yea I know there are work around to getting the XBLA games if you deleted them but its a pain and I would rather just have a phy copy.

[quote name='arcane93']It hasn't been that long since Deathsmiles came out. My guess? Aksys worked out a deal for one title, because they didn't want to commit themselves to more not knowing whether the market would support it. The question now is whether the market supported Deathsmiles to the extent that Aksys was hoping or not.

If it did, and they want to license more . . . hey, Aksys is a small company, and localizing a game takes time and effort. They're not going to just start pouring them out like they're nothing, it'll take a little while. It might not be the first thing on their plate or their top priority either. But if it was successful, I think we'll see more when they can get to it.

If it wasn't as successful as they hoped, then who could blame them for not wanting to do more?

Alternately, Cave seems to be trying to work direct inroads into the US iPhone/iPod/iPad market. Maybe they're intentionally holding onto the licenses themselves in case they want to do so with the XBox 360 market as well.[/QUOTE]

I hope something comes out of it. I would like to see Death Smiles 2 over here.
 
[quote name='joshnorm']I believe the reason was because they were allowed to port them over in straight ports while PS3 wanted something else. I could be wrong about that but I think I read that somewhere (which means it could be absolute BS)[/QUOTE]Part of it has to do with the very low development cost (and free dev kits) many gave to Japanese developers. For smaller devs like Cave, it works out well for them.

Cave's games sell to a limited audience regardless, so its not like having them on PS3 or Wii would lead to much bigger sales (compared to a JRPG).
 
[quote name='ninja dog']That's a more generous review than hardcore shmup fans have given the game.[/QUOTE]

Most hardcore shmup fans think that Deathsmiles US version shouldn't even exist. According to Aksys, CAVE went back and tweaked the game by removing some slowdown for the US release that exists in the Japanese release.

Now, the hardcore are complaining about no 4:3 mode for Guwange. But, that is a more legitimate complaint though.
 
[quote name='superdry']Most hardcore shmup fans think that Deathsmiles US version shouldn't even exist. According to Aksys, CAVE went back and tweaked the game by removing some slowdown for the US release that exists in the Japanese release.

Now, the hardcore are complaining about no 4:3 mode for Guwange. But, that is a more legitimate complaint though.[/QUOTE]


well, slowdown is usually pretty welcome in shmups, sometimes even necessary. I have yet to play the game though...no 360 at the moment.


I'm pretty satisfied by their iPhone output, to be honest. Pretty amazing ports. I just wish there was a Futari port!
 
[quote name='superdry']Most hardcore shmup fans think that Deathsmiles US version shouldn't even exist. According to Aksys, CAVE went back and tweaked the game by removing some slowdown for the US release that exists in the Japanese release.

Now, the hardcore are complaining about no 4:3 mode for Guwange. But, that is a more legitimate complaint though.[/QUOTE]

I just look at it as a different game/version. They separated the leader boards as well.
 
[quote name='superdry']Most hardcore shmup fans think that Deathsmiles US version shouldn't even exist. According to Aksys, CAVE went back and tweaked the game by removing some slowdown for the US release that exists in the Japanese release.

Now, the hardcore are complaining about no 4:3 mode for Guwange. But, that is a more legitimate complaint though.[/QUOTE]

It's not just the hardcore. I'm only a casual shmup player, I'm more interested in 1CC'ing the game than going for a big score but even I know that Cave made the game worse by taking out the slow-down. It's not about being arcade perfect for the sake of being arcade perfect - it just gives the game a certain quality and by removing it the game just isn't as good. Anyone who's played Futari should know how important slow-down is to the experience.

The 4:3 Guwange complaints are plenty legitimate too, but I think that's exclusively to the hardcore because the game is perfectly playable, some people just don't see it as a PCB replacement when the game gives you a smaller screen ratio on that kind of setup.

The game looks great on my tate'd monitor :cool:
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']Like I said, you can NOT go full bore into the niche and then turn around and cry that you're not getting messianic reception from gamers who aren't already cuddling their imported EG2s and Mushihmamdsighmaie disks as they drift off to bullet riddled dreams. The sheer ARROGANCE of shmup fans in this regard irks me to no end.[/QUOTE]

There's nothing wrong with making games that appeal strictly to a niche audience, and I don't think anyone expects those types of games to be embraced by the mainstream. The problem is when mainstream sites review a game like DeathSmiles, disregard things like the scoring system, burn through credits and just write it off as another generic shmup that can be finished in 20 minutes. These are the sort of people who have no business writing about these kinds of games, just as I don't have any business reviewing sports games or romance novels.
 
[quote name='insektmute']There's nothing wrong with making games that appeal strictly to a niche audience, and I don't think anyone expects those types of games to be embraced by the mainstream. The problem is when mainstream sites review a game like DeathSmiles, disregard things like the scoring system, burn through credits and just write it off as another generic shmup that can be finished in 20 minutes. These are the sort of people who have no business writing about these kinds of games, just as I don't have any business reviewing sports games or romance novels.[/QUOTE]
But this is still about the quality of review that comes out of sports games and the like.

This guy had fun with the game, enjoyed it for what it was, but will probably never, EVER 1cc it. So why would he care about a shmup's absurdly complicated scoring system? Not even enough have come out in America for people to get a handle on them an compare anyway. People still think Ikaruga's was good, for pity's sake.
 
I didn't like Ikaruga much. I had the disc a few years ago or some such amount of time, but sold it. I just couldn't get into the switching colors or whatever it was you had to do in that game - I'm forgetting now. I found it annoying rather then fun. I might give it another try at some point, though. Perhaps I just didn't give it enough of a try.

What are people talking about here when they say "slowdown" here? Isn't slowdown bad, and if so, why would removing it be a bad thing? What am I missing?
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']
So why would he care about a shmup's absurdly complicated scoring system?[/QUOTE]


I love it. Having to learn probably 5 to 10 rules about a scoring system = absurdly complicated.

But I guess this is to be expected in a time where the only rule in most games is that you're about to die because blood is splattering all of the screen and there's a heartbeat sound in the background.


[quote name='crunchewy']
What are people talking about here when they say "slowdown" here? Isn't slowdown bad, and if so, why would removing it be a bad thing? What am I missing?[/QUOTE]


slow down is usually intentional in bullet hell shmups. So when the screen gets carpeted in bullets and you have millimeters of space you have to navigate to avoid death, the game slows down to give you a bit more precision, instead of having a screen full of bullets take you out instantly when the game is running at a full 60fps. Makes for some pretty fun and intense moments. Also, you'd need superhuman eyesight and reflexes to pass some bullet patterns without slowdown.
 
These sort of games are quite hard, and slowdown can make dodging some of insane bullet patterns easier. It throws off the balance, because in the Japanese version, a section might be navigateable, but become significantly harder in the NA version because it was "improved". I've never played the Japanese one so I didn't think it was that big a deal. Death Smiles is relatively easy for a Cave game (though certainly not easy in the grand scheme of things.)

The worst things Cave games do is refuse to tell the player how to actually play their game. The Deathsmiles manual was surprisingly decent, but Guwange doesn't mention ANYTHING about the scoring system, assuming that the player is going to hang around forums and arcades and watch replays to figure out the best way to play properly. There's nothing wrong with building that kind of community, but it does give the impression that these games are disposable, which is usually why they're rated as such.
 
Ah, I see. I like (US) Deathsmiles a lot and think the difficulty is just about right. Which is not to say that I can 1cc it. I haven't, but it's fun trying. I like Guwange, but so far only in the much, much easier 360 mode. The arcade modes are so damned hard - they make my head want to explode. :) However, I will get to those once I've 1cc'd 360 mode. I came darned close to doing that last night.
 
[quote name='discoalucard']These sort of games are quite hard, and slowdown can make dodging some of insane bullet patterns easier. It throws off the balance, because in the Japanese version, a section might be navigateable, but become significantly harder in the NA version because it was "improved". I've never played the Japanese one so I didn't think it was that big a deal. Death Smiles is relatively easy for a Cave game (though certainly not easy in the grand scheme of things.)

The worst things Cave games do is refuse to tell the player how to actually play their game. The Deathsmiles manual was surprisingly decent, but Guwange doesn't mention ANYTHING about the scoring system, assuming that the player is going to hang around forums and arcades and watch replays to figure out the best way to play properly. There's nothing wrong with building that kind of community, but it does give the impression that these games are disposable, which is usually why they're rated as such.[/QUOTE]



Ok, that's fair enough. They definitely don't explain the scoring system in their in-game tutorials. but once you find an explanation, it's not like the games are seriously complicated.

They have a survey about the iPhone version of Dodonpachi Resurrection
on their site and I made a big stink about how they need to include scoring system info in the game. I have a feeling that part of the fun of these games to Japanese shmup fans is figuring out the scoring system, which I can sort of understand, but I don't like that, personally.
 
[quote name='crunchewy']Ah, I see. I like (US) Deathsmiles a lot and think the difficulty is just about right. Which is not to say that I can 1cc it. I haven't, but it's fun trying. I like Guwange, but so far only in the much, much easier 360 mode. The arcade modes are so damned hard - they make my head want to explode. :) However, I will get to those once I've 1cc'd 360 mode. I came darned close to doing that last night.[/QUOTE]

I can 1cc everything except the gorge and the ice palace but I'm still trying to get my score up(mainly ex off since I said I can't do the ex levels)

It's funny because I am not the hugest Ikaruga fan either but that may have to do with me not understanding how the scoring works.
 
[quote name='crunchewy']Ah, I see. I like (US) Deathsmiles a lot and think the difficulty is just about right. Which is not to say that I can 1cc it. I haven't, but it's fun trying. I like Guwange, but so far only in the much, much easier 360 mode. The arcade modes are so damned hard - they make my head want to explode. :) However, I will get to those once I've 1cc'd 360 mode. I came darned close to doing that last night.[/QUOTE]

Also I noticed you are playing offline not score attack your leaderboards don't go up so you might want to switch.
 
[quote name='clickpow']Also I noticed you are playing offline not score attack your leaderboards don't go up so you might want to switch.[/QUOTE]

I didn't see any scores from you. I thought I was playing onilne. I picked Score Attack mode. How do you switch to online?
 
[quote name='ninja dog']slow down is usually intentional in bullet hell shmups.[/QUOTE]"Intentional" may not be the right word. It makes it sound (to me at least) like the developers want to have slowdown in their game. It's more of a side-effect of the hardware being pushed too far than anything else.

[quote name='discoalucard']The worst things Cave games do is refuse to tell the player how to actually play their game. The Deathsmiles manual was surprisingly decent, but Guwange doesn't mention ANYTHING about the scoring system, assuming that the player is going to hang around forums and arcades and watch replays to figure out the best way to play properly.[/QUOTE]This is my number one issue with both DeathSmiles and Guwange. Cave really doesn't have an excuse on Guwange, all it would have taken is another 2-3 pages in the in-game tutorial to explain things. I've been really impressed to the extensive customization options Cave gives you in the game, but to skimp on something simple like complete instructions is literally baffling. They put all this work into fleshing out the scoring system only to leave players in the dark about how things work. You're basically forced to watch top player's replays to see how they work the scoring system. I guess they want players to feel a certain sense of reward in discovering things for themselves.
 
[quote name='Thrinn']"Intentional" may not be the right word. It makes it sound (to me at least) like the developers want to have slowdown in their game. It's more of a side-effect of the hardware being pushed too far than anything else.
[/QUOTE]


I'm just repeating the rest of my post, but um...many sections of bullet hell shmups would be pretty much impossible without it. I know it's weird to think of a defect as intentional in a game, but they want it in there and so do fans. The graphics in these games aren't taxing at all and the slowdown sections could easily be full speed on the 360, but they aren't.
 
[quote name='ninja dog']I'm just repeating the rest of my post, but um...many sections of bullet hell shmups would be pretty much impossible without it. I know it's weird to think of a defect as intentional in a game, but they want it in there and so do fans. The graphics in these games aren't taxing at all and the slowdown sections could easily be full speed on the 360, but they aren't.[/QUOTE]

This is from a Cave interview...
Most of Cave titles experience slowdown from the hardware aspect, but there are some of our games which emulate this via software. With the iPhone version of the game, we have not ‘replicated’ the slow-down of the arcade version. If slow-down is occurring, it is literally slowing down on the hardware.
Click to expand...
It seems like they intentionally enforce slowdown when porting a game to a more powerful platform for the sake of maintaining the exact feel of the original in some cases, but it appears that they're moving away from this stance.
[quote name='superdry']According to Aksys, CAVE went back and tweaked the game by removing some slowdown for the US release that exists in the Japanese release.[/QUOTE]

That gives the impression that Cave would like as little slowdown as possible.

As for the fans wanting it, I think it's more to do with them wanting a faithful port rather than a helping hand. This is about as "hardcore" as genres get. It's always seemed to actually making the game harder when bullets change their speed without notice, when they suddenly speed up when coming out of a period of slowdown.
 
[quote name='ninja dog']I'm just repeating the rest of my post, but um...many sections of bullet hell shmups would be pretty much impossible without it. I know it's weird to think of a defect as intentional in a game, but they want it in there and so do fans. The graphics in these games aren't taxing at all and the slowdown sections could easily be full speed on the 360, but they aren't.[/QUOTE]

This is from a Cave interview...
Most of Cave titles experience slowdown from the hardware aspect, but there are some of our games which emulate this via software. With the iPhone version of the game, we have not ‘replicated’ the slow-down of the arcade version. If slow-down is occurring, it is literally slowing down on the hardware.
Click to expand...
It seems like slowdown is not intentional on the original versions of the game, but it is on some of the ports. They appear to intentionally enforce slowdown when porting a game to a more powerful platform for the sake of maintaining the exact feel of the original in some cases, but it appears that they're moving away from this stance.
[quote name='superdry']Most hardcore shmup fans think that Deathsmiles US version shouldn't even exist. According to Aksys, CAVE went back and tweaked the game by removing some slowdown for the US release that exists in the Japanese release.[/QUOTE]

That gives the impression that Cave would like as little slowdown as possible.

As for the fans wanting it, I think it's more to do with them wanting a faithful port rather than a helping hand. This is about as "hardcore" as genres get. It's always seemed to actually making the game harder when bullets change their speed without notice, when they suddenly speed up when coming out of a period of slowdown.
 
[quote name='crunchewy']I didn't see any scores from you. I thought I was playing onilne. I picked Score Attack mode. How do you switch to online?[/QUOTE]

Maybe I didn't check all the game mode leaderboards because score attack is online.
I don't play 360 mode at all so I won't have a leaderboard for that.

I'll just message you on xbox since I don't want to get too off topic.

So on topic: I ordered my copy and it will be shipping on or around Nov. 26. Hopefully I get it before X-mas lol =(
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']This guy had fun with the game, enjoyed it for what it was, but will probably never, EVER 1cc it. So why would he care about a shmup's absurdly complicated scoring system? Not even enough have come out in America for people to get a handle on them an compare anyway.[/QUOTE]

It's fine if he doesn't personally care about 1cc'ing the game or the scoring system, but at the very least, those things should be acknowledged and taken into account. He's supposed to be a professional critic, and giving a superficial review and telling people it should have been a cheap XBLA download just strikes me as lazy.

Then again, I'm kind of anti-XBLA anyway and don't generally use reviews to help determine what to buy. I've never felt too comfortable having no solid way to backup what I buy and don't really trust that I'll be able to re-download that stuff whenever MS shuts down the service. I'd have bought it, but I'm pretty glad that most of these Cave games have gotten decent retail releases.

People still think Ikaruga's was good, for pity's sake.
Click to expand...
I never really understood the media obsession with Ikaruga, but I do find it kind of strange that anyone would compare it with DeathSmiles. Besides the more obvious differences, Cave shooters always struck me as a lot more approachable.
 
Just in this modern age, it's quite obvious that slowdown is caused by inefficient coding rather than actually stretching the hardware. Thousands of overlapped boolet sprites is nothing to display provided you plan properly for it in advance. That said, it's probably not as easy as Cave likes to write their engine to use that more efficiently.

I think it's not really a question of it being "intentionally" there as to whether it was just decided at the time that it wasn't worth fixing. Remember, pretty much no game developer is MASTER OF THE CRAFT IN TOTAL CONTROL OF MEDIUM AND MESSAGE. I would bet all of them are just working to get a project out the door in the deadline and so stuff gets left in or changed on whims depending on who was in what mood what week.

It's fine if he doesn't personally care about 1cc'ing the game or the scoring system, but at the very least, those things should be acknowledged and taken into account. He's supposed to be a professional critic, and giving a superficial review and telling people it should have been a cheap XBLA download just strikes me as lazy.
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Yeah, but again, to someone like him, those are barely concerns. He's not going to 1cc, and the ONLY people who give two shakes about the scoring system ALREADY KNOW ABOUT IT, and there's no way he can write interestingly about it even if he did go look it up online.

The reason he calls it not worth a retail release is obvious: To make the value worth $50, you have to replay it over and over and over and grind at it for a better score or for the 1cc. If you tell him that, he'll say, "Oh, so it's like Geometry Wars, for which I paid $10!"

The advantages of a disc release are obvious for lasting appeal, but, hell, I'm pretty sure I will be done with it and moving back to my MAME collection LONG before the XBLA service ends. For a reduced cost, reduced overhead, reduced barrier for entry, and ability to reach more people, XBLA is simply a better choice.
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']
Yeah, but again, to someone like him, those are barely concerns. He's not going to 1cc, and the ONLY people who give two shakes about the scoring system ALREADY KNOW ABOUT IT, and there's no way he can write interestingly about it even if he did go look it up online.

The reason he calls it not worth a retail release is obvious: To make the value worth $50, you have to replay it over and over and over and grind at it for a better score or for the 1cc. If you tell him that, he'll say, "Oh, so it's like Geometry Wars, for which I paid $10!"

The advantages of a disc release are obvious for lasting appeal, but, hell, I'm pretty sure I will be done with it and moving back to my MAME collection LONG before the XBLA service ends. For a reduced cost, reduced overhead, reduced barrier for entry, and ability to reach more people, XBLA is simply a better choice.[/QUOTE]

Great post, RollingSkull. You may have an M & M cookie. :)
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']Yeah, but again, to someone like him, those are barely concerns. He's not going to 1cc, and the ONLY people who give two shakes about the scoring system ALREADY KNOW ABOUT IT, and there's no way he can write interestingly about it even if he did go look it up online.[/quote]
Which basically establishes that the target audience is the lowest common denominator - that is, people who don't actively look for new and interesting things to play, largely stick to "safe" and widely marketed titles - and that most critics aren't very knowledgeable about something they're supposed to be experts on.

I don't disagree with that being the case, but it does serve to illustrate how pointless it is for these people to write about any game that deviates from the predictable and mainstream. If the writers don't care and the audience doesn't care, why bother?

I'm not saying everyone should bow down and worship shmups, and I'm not even a particularly rabid fan myself, but when so many people are reliant on sites like IGN to point them toward new games, it's no wonder the audience for them is so limited.
 
[quote name='insektmute']Which basically establishes that the target audience is the lowest common denominator - that is, people who don't actively look for new and interesting things to play, largely stick to "safe" and widely marketed titles - and that most critics aren't very knowledgeable about something they're supposed to be experts on.

I don't disagree with that being the case, but it does serve to illustrate how pointless it is for these people to write about any game that deviates from the predictable and mainstream. If the writers don't care and the audience doesn't care, why bother?

I'm not saying everyone should bow down and worship shmups, and I'm not even a particularly rabid fan myself, but when so many people are reliant on sites like IGN to point them toward new games, it's no wonder the audience for them is so limited.[/QUOTE]

Good grief what a sneering douche you come across as with that post, simply because some people don't see limitless joy in replaying a 40 minute dot-dodging game over and over and over until they have mastered every aspect of it.

These review sites you so condescend to are the SAME ones that practically deified Demon Souls, not to mention boosting many other unique games. Try Sin and Punishment 2, for instance. You'd be hard pressed to find a negative review of THAT. Even Deadly Premonition got as many boosters as it did haters, and even STILL it was damn near impossible to even read a negative review of that without coming out of it still ambivalent about the game.

Hell, your screed was only short a few lines sneering about "mindless brown casual regen health shooters" from being a picture perfect caricature of why so many jaded 20-something gamers are just completely intolerable.
 
Again I have to agree. It is perfectly okay not to like vertically-scrolling shooters, or to just casually enjoy them. Reviewers don't need to pass a genre affinity test to be qualified in their jobs. You just have to consider that their opinions and preferences may differ from yours and move on with your life.
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']Good grief what a sneering douche you come across as with that post, simply because some people don't see limitless joy in replaying a 40 minute dot-dodging game over and over and over until they have mastered every aspect of it.

These review sites you so condescend to are the SAME ones that practically deified Demon Souls, not to mention boosting many other unique games. Try Sin and Punishment 2, for instance. You'd be hard pressed to find a negative review of THAT. Even Deadly Premonition got as many boosters as it did haters, and even STILL it was damn near impossible to even read a negative review of that without coming out of it still ambivalent about the game.

Hell, your screed was only short a few lines sneering about "mindless brown casual regen health shooters" from being a picture perfect caricature of why so many jaded 20-something gamers are just completely intolerable.[/QUOTE]

Gee, didn't see a response like that coming or anything.

I'm not claiming that a reviewer has to be a master of the genre, but that in the interest of writing a useful review, it's important to at least acknowledge aspects of a game and write something a bit more in-depth than just summarizing the most superficial elements. Most reviews I run across of shmups and fighting games tend to do little more than that, which isn't too useful to anyone, considering that these types of games focus pretty heavily on challenging players to improve their skills.

I mean, take the DeathSmiles review. He mentions the gothic lolita art, that it has some cool bosses, summarizes the manual, that it has OK graphics, and some achievements. He could have looked at screenshots of the game and written that.

Contrast that with their review of Ikaruga, where the writer frequently emphasizes the challenge, that the game pushes you to memorize bullet patterns and improve your playing, talks about that these qualities might be off-putting to casual players, and so on. Is it perfect? No. Does it at least provide a clear enough picture of what the game has to offer that someone could develop a pretty good idea of whether or not to check it out? Yeah, I think so.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm a hardcore shmup fanatic who demands that everyone dedicate countless hours of practice in order to be deemed worthy, which isn't the case at all. I own only a very small number of shmups, and even taking MAME into account, I pretty much stick with Cave titles and a scattering of others like Soukyugurentai and Battle Garegga. I didn't even really get into these types of games until a couple of years ago, and only then because I stumbled across people talking about them on a couple of sites and got curious enough to check a few of them out on MAME.

I also have no idea what a "mindless brown casual regen health shooter" is.

You mentioned Demon's Souls as an example, and I think it's awesome how a lot of reviewers were pushing it...but notice that most of them didn't gloss over it and actually wrote something of substance, too.

In any case, we're pretty far off the original topic at this point, aren't we?
 
He probably didn't feel the need to say "The bullet patterns are tough and the game pushes you to be better." because that phrase itself is trite and practically meaningless. There's hardly a need among reviewers to define a bullet hell any more than you need to define what you expect of a Koei mashfest. What is there novel to write about in Deathsmiles? He mentioned the control of your familiar, four different characters with different familiar behaviors, the left/right shooting mechanic... what else is there to talk about? The scoring system is pretty much the only thing left.

And I certainly don't think nor care if you are a shmup fanatic or can't tell your Galaga from your Dodonpachi. It's your damn condescension that I can't stand, that just because he didn't meet your exacting specifications in describing every micron of the game that he's only peddling to those filthy plebian masses of gamers, the lowest common denominator, who wouldn't dare try something as innovative as GASP, an ARCADE SHMUP PORT.

And, yeah, we are, but INTERNETS ARGUING IS SERIOUS MOTHERfuckING BUSINESS
 
[quote name='Thrinn']"Intentional" may not be the right word. It makes it sound (to me at least) like the developers want to have slowdown in their game. It's more of a side-effect of the hardware being pushed too far than anything else.
[/QUOTE]

If I remember correctly, there is intentional and unintentional slowdown. Supposedly, CAVE removed unintentional slowdown from Deathsmiles US.
 
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