Shaq Retires

[quote name='berzirk']I completely disagree. If you put prime vs. prime of Hakeem vs. Shaq the numbers are very, very close. Shaq has a few more points, Hakeem has a few more blocks and steals and was a much better FT shooter. Both guys faded in their last 4 seasons.

I did mention Robinson as one of the most underrated centers already. I agree there, but saying that Shaq was clearly better than Hakeem doesn't have any statistical foundation. Both were incredible.[/QUOTE]

Career ORtg (points produced per 100 possessions):

Shaq: 113
Olajuwon: 108

Seasons with an ORtg of higher than 113:

Shaq: 8 (including a five year stretch from 1999-2003
Olajuwon: 1

Win Shares/48:

Shaq: .208
Hakeem: .177

Win Shares:

Shaq: 181.7
Hakeem: 162.8

PER:

Shaq: 26.4
Hakeem: 23.6

Career DRtg (this is where Hakeem has Shaq):

Shaq: 101
Hakeem: 98

Hakeem never led the NBA in PER, Win Shares per 48, or Win Shares. Shaq led the NBA in PER for five consecutive seasons, led in Win Shares per 48 twice and Win Shares twice, including a season where he led the NBA in offensive AND defensive win shares. To Hakeem's credit, he led the NBA in DRtg five times, and in defensive win shares four times. All said, Shaq has the statistical edge, and it isn't particularly close.

By all these metrics, Robinson annihilates both Shaq and Hakeem. You take Shaq's offense and Hakeem's defense, and put them in one player, and you'd still fall short of The Admiral.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']A lot of Chamberlain's statistical dominance can be explained by two things:

1. Pace. The NBA during his time was like today's game in fast forward. We're talking 15-20+ extra possessions per game.

2. Insane volume. Wilt racked up the following FGA: 32.1, 31.1, 39.5, 34.6, 28.7, 28.5. In consecutive seasons. In all, Wilt was rather inefficient.

Dwight Howard has put up comparable rebound rates to Chamberlain, and Rodman blows him out of the water.

In short, Chamberlain is NOT the Babe Ruth of basketball.[/QUOTE]

There was no shot clock. How could the pace be that much faster than today's game? Of course Wilt shot a ton. He was the best player on the floor nearly every night he played. How many shots did MJ shoot? I really don't know, I'm curious (edit-looks to be about 23). In one of Kareem's bizarre recent rants, he actually brings up another good point. During Wilt's days there were 18 teams. Far fewer men on the floor, so you can assume the overall depth of the league was greater.
 
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[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']Career ORtg (points produced per 100 possessions):

Shaq: 113
Olajuwon: 108

Seasons with an ORtg of higher than 113:

Shaq: 8 (including a five year stretch from 1999-2003
Olajuwon: 1

Win Shares/48:

Shaq: .208
Hakeem: .177

Win Shares:

Shaq: 181.7
Hakeem: 162.8

PER:

Shaq: 26.4
Hakeem: 23.6

Career DRtg (this is where Hakeem has Shaq):

Shaq: 101
Hakeem: 98

Hakeem never led the NBA in PER, Win Shares per 48, or Win Shares. Shaq led the NBA in PER for five consecutive seasons, led in Win Shares per 48 twice and Win Shares twice, including a season where he led the NBA in offensive AND defensive win shares. To Hakeem's credit, he led the NBA in DRtg five times, and in defensive win shares four times. All said, Shaq has the statistical edge, and it isn't particularly close.

By all these metrics, Robinson annihilates both Shaq and Hakeem. You take Shaq's offense and Hakeem's defense, and put them in one player, and you'd still fall short of The Admiral.[/QUOTE]

To me, a lot of these numbers are about as helpful as what is used to calculate BCS rankings, but assuming each and every category has merit, those numbers are exceptionally similar. Shaq scored 5 more points per 100 touches...OK...That means he's clearly better than the Dream? Also, as javery mentioned, Hakeem was playing against the best centers of the last 30 years, for the most part in their prime. Shaq faced Yao Ming, David Robinson, ehh..., ehh...Rik Smits...Ben Wallace..., ehem...Eric Dampier. The competition was stronger, the supporting cast of the Lakers (not the Magic though) were stronger, meaning you were more severely punished if you doubled the Diesel. They are very, very similar in terms of place in history.

Edit-I forgot Deke too. Mutombo was obviously a very good defensive center that both guys played against. Hard to nail down his prime since he played for 125 years, but anyhoo, Mutombo was better than B.Wallace
 
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[quote name='berzirk']In one of Kareem's bizarre recent rants, he actually brings up another good point. During Wilt's days there were 18 teams. Far fewer men on the floor, so you can assume the overall depth of the league was greater.[/QUOTE]

Today we may have more teams but we have players from all over the world in the league. Also, college basketball is much much much bigger so more people are playing and developing their skills and only a couple of guys each year have any kind of impact going to the NBA. I think the level of talent is way deeper now then back when Wilt played.
 
[quote name='Javery']Today we may have more teams but we have players from all over the world in the league. Also, college basketball is much much much bigger so more people are playing and developing their skills and only a couple of guys each year have any kind of impact going to the NBA. I think the level of talent is way deeper now then back when Wilt played.[/QUOTE]

This.

Times a million.

And its the same for the vast majority of major professional sports.
 
There's been a lot of discussion about his sporting ability, but I want to mention that even though he wouldn't often show it, Shaq actually seemed like a really nice guy off the court. He played the role and did the trash talkng and acted like he had this huge ego with the Superman thing etc, but I remember this small mention on some talk show where the poor father of a murdered girl (it was a really sad, horrible news story) mentioned how Shaq called him and paid for the funeral. Also I remember watching TMZ where they were filming him in some restaurant or something in LA, and I don't think he even realized the camera was on him, but he saw a homeless woman and asked her if she was hungry and offered to buy her some food. Just little things like that tell me the guy has a really big heart.
 
[quote name='berzirk']To me, a lot of these numbers are about as helpful as what is used to calculate BCS rankings, but assuming each and every category has merit, those numbers are exceptionally similar. Shaq scored 5 more points per 100 touches...OK...That means he's clearly better than the Dream? Also, as javery mentioned, Hakeem was playing against the best centers of the last 30 years, for the most part in their prime. Shaq faced Yao Ming, David Robinson, ehh..., ehh...Rik Smits...Ben Wallace..., ehem...Eric Dampier. The competition was stronger, the supporting cast of the Lakers (not the Magic though) were stronger, meaning you were more severely punished if you doubled the Diesel. They are very, very similar in terms of place in history.

Edit-I forgot Deke too. Mutombo was obviously a very good defensive center that both guys played against. Hard to nail down his prime since he played for 125 years, but anyhoo, Mutombo was better than B.Wallace[/QUOTE]

For context:

The difference between a Win Shares per 48 of .208 (Shaq) and .177 (Hakeem) is 16th and 45th all-time.

The difference between 181.7 Win Shares (Shaq) and 162.8 (Hakeem) is 8th and 17th all-time.

The difference between a PER of 26.4 (Shaq) and 23.6 (Hakeem) is 3rd and 16th all-time.

Shaq ranks 89th all-time in ORtg; Hakeem 230th.

Shaq, Kareem, and David Robinson are the only players in NBA history to lead in both offensive and defensive win shares in the same season.

Love Hakeem, but Shaq's just on another level.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']For context:

The difference between a Win Shares per 48 of .208 (Shaq) and .177 (Hakeem) is 16th and 45th all-time.

The difference between 181.7 Win Shares (Shaq) and 162.8 (Hakeem) is 8th and 17th all-time.

The difference between a PER of 26.4 (Shaq) and 23.6 (Hakeem) is 3rd and 16th all-time.

Shaq ranks 89th all-time in ORtg; Hakeem 230th.

Shaq, Kareem, and David Robinson are the only players in NBA history to lead in both offensive and defensive win shares in the same season.

Love Hakeem, but Shaq's just on another level.[/QUOTE]

But what the shit is a win share, and how meaningful is it actually?
 
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