Terminator: TSCC... TERMINATED BY The T-FOX!

Did anybody else notice the "1337" on the glass door at the mall? I thought it was kind of cheesy hehe.

One thing that bothered me about last night's episode was when
Sarah Connor slaps the terminator in the face and doesn't even flinch (after the terminator kills Enrique). That would be akin to slapping a bowling ball as hard as you can and not hurting :lol:

Another thing that stood out for me was when Sarah found the dead soldiers. There were supposed to be four of them from the future, but one of the "dead" soldiers was an enemy terminator. I liked how they showed the last soldier still alive in the alley because that will add another interesting story arc in future episodes.
 
I just dont get this show at all. I want to like it but don't think I can just because it does not fit in with the movies. If T3 took place in 2004 then the war started in 2004 and was pushed back due to the events in 1 and 2. In one of the first two movies I'm about 99% sure they said the war starts in 1997 or 1999. I would think the events in T2 pushed it back. Yet the war still starts at the end of T3 but if in the show they go into the future past the ending to T3 then they should be in the war. Also John would have said somthing and it would have been known in T3 about all this.
 
[quote name='sendme']I just dont get this show at all. I want to like it but don't think I can just because it does not fit in with the movies. If T3 took place in 2004 then the war started in 2004 and was pushed back due to the events in 1 and 2. In one of the first two movies I'm about 99% sure they said the war starts in 1997 or 1999. I would think the events in T2 pushed it back. Yet the war still starts at the end of T3 but if in the show they go into the future past the ending to T3 then they should be in the war. Also John would have said somthing and it would have been known in T3 about all this.[/QUOTE]

Like most people the producers (etc.) behind the series pretend that T3 never happened. On the wiki entry they "stated that the events of Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines occur in an alternate timeline from that of the TV series".

Which is a nice way of saying that it never happened. The series is thought of a continuation of the plot line from T2. Things will get really interesting when the fourth terminator movie comes out depicting the "war of the machines" because they will have to pick a Judgement Day from one of the three existing ones, or pull the same bullshit move as everyone else and make up a new one.
 
maybe they can fix the terminator timeline because T3 was bad and seems out of place, Terminator is starting to get the Comics sindrome were different people change the original timeline, sometimes for better other times for worse, hope this is for better

[quote name='Deathmonkey']Like most people the producers (etc.) behind the series pretend that T3 never happened. On the wiki entry they "stated that the events of Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines occur in an alternate timeline from that of the TV series".

Which is a nice way of saying that it never happened.[/quote]
 
[quote name='sendme']I just dont get this show at all. I want to like it but don't think I can just because it does not fit in with the movies. If T3 took place in 2004 then the war started in 2004 and was pushed back due to the events in 1 and 2. In one of the first two movies I'm about 99% sure they said the war starts in 1997 or 1999. I would think the events in T2 pushed it back. Yet the war still starts at the end of T3 but if in the show they go into the future past the ending to T3 then they should be in the war. Also John would have said somthing and it would have been known in T3 about all this.[/QUOTE]

T1 kicks off the events. According to T3, events from T2 did push judgement day back. (However, the events that happened in T3 no longer exist).

It's only been two episodes so we don't have the details by far. By hi-jacking Sarah Connor from 1999 and pushing her forward to 2007, + resistance members in the present, it sounds like the show might offer a more concerted effort by future John to stop the events in the past rather than just delaying it (or maybe delaying it longer might be part of the plan). However, we don't know what this plan is esp. since Cameron (female terminator) doesn't follow instructions from either past John nor Sarah Connor, so there's stuff she's hiding from the two.

For all we know, resistance members have been sabotaging/delaying Skynet development. As shown in episode 2, terminators are being sent back to clean them up. I wonder if it's a game of chess being played from the future between Skynet and John Connor.

Since John dies in the future as mentioned in T3, maybe his future wife sent back the female terminator in order to alter the past enough for him to survive in the future (even if it means that she is no longer part of his life since that future timeline is essentially wiped out based on the TV show events).
Or it's inevitable they'll meet, although she'd be 8 years older than him :)

Lots of different possibilites (esp. "What is future John's plan?"). I'll keep watching to see if they manage to balance everything together into something interesting.
 
[quote name='gokou36']Yeah I know that, but how was Future John born in order to send Reese to the past? This is what I hate about time travelling plots. How can the future happen before the past.[/quote]

You're thinking too linearly. Without delving too deep into higher order physics & string theory, this is a predestination paradox. Basically, a future 'John' will always be born & a 'Kyle' will always be sent back to 1984. Just as Judgment Day will also always happen. You can delay it, alter it, etc. but the result will be the same. Here's an example from the wiki above:

"In the The Twilight Zone 2002-2003 revival, there is an episode in which the character goes back in time to assassinate Adolf Hitler while he is a baby. She kills the baby (whom she presumes to be actual Adolf Hitler), but the nanny (discovering the death), replaces the baby with a street gypsy's baby, and she presents this baby to the father as his own. The father proceeds to introduce this son to his guests as "Adolf", presumably the Adolf Hitler known to history in the first place."

This means that even if she didn't go back in time, there would always be a man named Adolf Hitler who would later go on to order Jewish genocide. It also possibly means that she herself is always fated to travel back & assassinate the wrong baby. There's also a possibility that it means that even if she went back in time and assassinated the 'replaced' baby as well, fate doesn't like to be thwarted and will resolve it somehow (the father is angry at the nanny and demands that she give up her own son... who grows up to be Hitler or the father grieves for his lost son, blames the Jewish nanny, adopts another son, and gives him the name Adolf and so on).
 
So much T3 hate. Am I the only one who actually liked the third Terminator movie? I mean, it doesn't measure up to the first two, T2 is my favorite for sure. But it wasn't terrible, not by any means.
 
I don't hate T3, but it was a bit of a letdown. It is in essence a retelling of T2. The Conners on the run (in this case John and his future wife) from an advanced version of a terminator protected by an older version that still manages to get the upper hand and win despite being "obsolete". Add a truck chase seen and a heavily armed Arnold shooting it out with the cops, and the resulting movie is almost T2 recreated.
 
I thought the second episode was way better, but I still have some problems:

- Casting isn't great.

- They're trying too hard to make the female terminator more human. I've seen Star Trek: TNG, I don't need to see the same plot again. And before you start talking about the humanization and relationship-building that went on in T2 (especially in the special edition of the film, which is much better), that was a 2 hour movie.

- It's also clear that they're setting up a romance between Feminator and John. Look, I'd fuck a robotic Summer Glau, too, but you're on the run from cyborg killing machines from the future. This is not a time for blowjobs.

- John Conner is played in almost the same way he was in T2, except since he's much older, it's way worse. The John character should have developed much more instead of becoming such a whiny bitch.

- Look, I know Linda Hamilton was fantastic in T2 as Sarah Conner, and it would have been stupid to try and replicate her performance, but still, they could have at least tried.

- They obviously blew the special effects budget on the first episode. I loved how Feminator went through a glass window and barely had a scratch. Nice.

- My balls aren't smacking against Summer Glau's chin and the chick who play's Sarah Conner's tongue isn't on my asshole.
 
Still not really digging the show, but I've made my peace with it being watchable enough to ride out the season. Episode 2 won big points with me for them explaining the ret-con of T3. The Feminator is starting to piss me off with the inconsistency in how the character is depicted. One moment she's hitting on John and showing off all these fancy emotions, then the next she's about to kill a cop for funsies. Also, I still can't get over what they've done to Sarah. It's sad that the network made them change the character to be that much of a departure from the original.

But I'll admit, throwing River out the window was fantastic.
 
I just remembered this, but I would've liked if they could've shown a short scene of Sarah changing her hair color to black at some point, and her Pescadero patient photo being consistent with her hair in the movies. I know it's not the same actress, but it's a small detail that would've worked toward enhancing the continuity.
 
[quote name='WhipSmartBanky']I just remembered this, but I would've liked if they could've shown a short scene of Sarah changing her hair color to black at some point, and her Pescadero patient photo being consistent with her hair in the movies. I know it's not the same actress, but it's a small detail that would've worked toward enhancing the continuity.[/quote]

It's a fucking time travel show spanning 25+ years, there is no real continuity in it, and never has been since T2.
 
I have this strange feeling that Cameron houses some dormant Skynet code that eventually will activate, up link to the net or some military network and Skynet will take over the world starting Judgment Day.
 
The story could coexist with T3, now I think about it. Me a friend have been discussing it. The Future John could have seen that the plan from T3 didn't work, and decided to try again, choosing to send back Cameron this time, and choosing to send her back earlier in time, when Sarah was still alive, hoping that with Sarah there to help, his teenage self can stop Judgment Day. He can keep trying and trying until he's successful, since he can apparently keep sending people back in time. Although, depending on what view you take of the whole time paradox issue, it might be impossible for him to stop it. But it's not like there are any proven 'laws' of time travel. It's completely theoretical. So it's silly to say that they're "breaking the rules" or something. Since time travel is completely fictional, it's up to them to decide how time travel works in the Terminator universe. If they want to say that in the Terminator universe, time travel doesn't cause paradoxes and people can change the past, that's their perogative! As long as they can maintain suspension of disbelief, they can use time travel as a plot device to tell a story that, so far, is pretty fun.

On a different note, who else thinks it's probable that Cameron is a mostly-human cyborg? Well, all of the Terminators are referred to as cyborgs, but, you know, Cameron might be more human than machine. I think in one of the books, one of the terminators was a human that was implanted with nanomachines and an endoskeleton. But then again, I only read the first book, and it was quite mediocre. And also obviously not canon. But I still think Cameron is going to end up counting as human, if for no other reason than to facilitate romance between her and John. Otherwise, it would be like John was dating an Aibo.

So, Cameron might end up being the Bionic Woman, but cooler. That would be ironic.
 
Wells theres a poster floating around with her naked dismembered torso hanging from the ceiling. If she is human at all it must only be the brain.
 
[quote name='Killer Rabbit']The story could coexist with T3, now I think about it. Me a friend have been discussing it. The Future John could have seen that the plan from T3 didn't work, and decided to try again, choosing to send back Cameron this time, and choosing to send her back earlier in time, when Sarah was still alive, hoping that with Sarah there to help, his teenage self can stop Judgment Day. He can keep trying and trying until he's successful, since he can apparently keep sending people back in time. Although, depending on what view you take of the whole time paradox issue, it might be impossible for him to stop it. But it's not like there are any proven 'laws' of time travel. It's completely theoretical. So it's silly to say that they're "breaking the rules" or something. Since time travel is completely fictional, it's up to them to decide how time travel works in the Terminator universe. If they want to say that in the Terminator universe, time travel doesn't cause paradoxes and people can change the past, that's their perogative! As long as they can maintain suspension of disbelief, they can use time travel as a plot device to tell a story that, so far, is pretty fun.

On a different note, who else thinks it's probable that Cameron is a mostly-human cyborg? Well, all of the Terminators are referred to as cyborgs, but, you know, Cameron might be more human than machine. I think in one of the books, one of the terminators was a human that was implanted with nanomachines and an endoskeleton. But then again, I only read the first book, and it was quite mediocre. And also obviously not canon. But I still think Cameron is going to end up counting as human, if for no other reason than to facilitate romance between her and John. Otherwise, it would be like John was dating an Aibo.

So, Cameron might end up being the Bionic Woman, but cooler. That would be ironic.[/quote]

Actually, I thought Cameron was a reprogrammed T-X since her eyes glow blue instead of red like the T-800 series or the 950. Then again, she doesn't have the mimetic alloy to shapeshift her hands into weapons so she might be a new class of Terminator.
 
[quote name='bigdaddy']How do we know that Girl Term is even a good term? She could be evil but not in the same way.[/quote]Yeah, she could string john along and then dump his ass and go do porn.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']You're thinking too linearly. Without delving too deep into higher order physics & string theory, this is a predestination paradox. Basically, a future 'John' will always be born & a 'Kyle' will always be sent back to 1984. Just as Judgment Day will also always happen. You can delay it, alter it, etc. but the result will be the same. Here's an example from the wiki above:

"In the The Twilight Zone 2002-2003 revival, there is an episode in which the character goes back in time to assassinate Adolf Hitler while he is a baby. She kills the baby (whom she presumes to be actual Adolf Hitler), but the nanny (discovering the death), replaces the baby with a street gypsy's baby, and she presents this baby to the father as his own. The father proceeds to introduce this son to his guests as "Adolf", presumably the Adolf Hitler known to history in the first place."

This means that even if she didn't go back in time, there would always be a man named Adolf Hitler who would later go on to order Jewish genocide. It also possibly means that she herself is always fated to travel back & assassinate the wrong baby. There's also a possibility that it means that even if she went back in time and assassinated the 'replaced' baby as well, fate doesn't like to be thwarted and will resolve it somehow (the father is angry at the nanny and demands that she give up her own son... who grows up to be Hitler or the father grieves for his lost son, blames the Jewish nanny, adopts another son, and gives him the name Adolf and so on).[/QUOTE]

I get what you're saying but you're still missing the father of the very first John Connor(the one that sends Reese back).
 
[quote name='gokou36']I get what you're saying but you're still missing the father of the very first John Connor(the one that sends Reese back).[/quote]

Then you don't get what I'm saying. There is no father. Kyle is the father. It's a closed loop. It will always happen. There's no preclusion that there is a 'first' father.
 
I watched a bit of T3 on FX as a refresher course for this show, and, bah gahd, am pleased they decided to kick T3 out of the cannon.

Plus, The Sarah Connor Chronicles has Summer Glau, and I fully support all former Whedonverse crew (see: Chuck). That, and I enjoyed this first episode. Sure beats American Gladiators.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Yeah, she could string john along and then dump his ass and go do porn.[/QUOTE]
...then go on American Gladiators and claim she was a "bull rider."
 
[quote name='chasemurata']I watched a bit of T3 on FX as a refresher course for this show, and, bah gahd, am pleased they decided to kick T3 out of the cannon.

Plus, The Sarah Connor Chronicles has Summer Glau, and I fully support all former Whedonverse crew (see: Chuck). That, and I enjoyed this first episode. Sure beats American Gladiators.[/QUOTE]


I am sad to say I just watched Firefly and Serenity this last week. I feel bad that it took me that long to buy and watch what has quickly become one of my favorite series. Its a shame that there will not be more to that universe. Whedon should write more comics for it.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Actually, I thought Cameron was a reprogrammed T-X since her eyes glow blue instead of red like the T-800 series or the 950. Then again, she doesn't have the mimetic alloy to shapeshift her hands into weapons so she might be a new class of Terminator.[/quote]

I also noticed her eyes glow blue like the T-X instead of red. But she doesn't have the liquid metal coating the T-X had. For example, if she had the liquid metal coating, she wouldn't have needed clothes to disguise herself as John. Plus, she doesn't have those built-in weapons.

I think it's obvious that her model is at least similar to the T-X. But I still think she's part human, and more human than just her brain. They made a big point of showing the audience that she could eat food. There's no real reason for a normal Terminator to be able to eat food. Installing an artificial gullet in T-X models is probably not that high on Skynet's to do list. She might have a human digestive tract, but the machine parts inside of her can sustain her without food. I guess I might be overthinking this, but they did make a point of her eating that one chip.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Then you don't get what I'm saying. There is no father. Kyle is the father. It's a closed loop. It will always happen. There's no preclusion that there is a 'first' father.[/QUOTE]

Yes i DO understand what you're saying. Your example earlier would mean that the 2 are not related by blood. The loop will only happen thereafter, it does not happen to the one before it. The loop still does not explain who the VERY first John's father is.
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']I am sad to say I just watched Firefly and Serenity this last week. I feel bad that it took me that long to buy and watch what has quickly become one of my favorite series. Its a shame that there will not be more to that universe. Whedon should write more comics for it.[/quote]

Ah yes, Firefly and Serenity. I miss the Whedonverse tons. :(

There is a Buffy Season 8 comic book out there, and Joss had a good run on the Astonishing X-Men comic book series. He has a new TV show coming up, with Dushku, to be precise. Woo! ^_^
 
[quote name='gokou36']Yes i DO understand what you're saying. Your example earlier would mean that the 2 are not related by blood. The loop will only happen thereafter, it does not happen to the one before it. The loop still does not explain who the VERY first John's father is.[/quote]
Then you still don't. As I said before, you're thinking too linearly where things have a beginning or end. There is no starting point. There is no beginning father. The loop exists without having a beginning. That example was to illustrate the idea of a pre-destination paradox. Pre- as in 'before or existing beforehand', destination as in 'end point of a journey or final point of fate', and paradox as in 'a logic statement or situation that contradicts itself'. A logic example of a paradox is the statement 'I always lie'. That statement contradicts itself because if I always lie then the only way for it to be true is for it to actually be false. Put together, you can loosely translate it into 'a pre-existing contradictory fate'. To reiterate the point, it's like a ring, you don't look for the 'beginning' or 'end' of a ring, a ring is always circular.

In this specific case, a Kyle will always go back in time and a John Connor will always be born regardless of any actions undertaken to thwart that cycle. Again, I repeat, there is no beginning and no end. It. Is. A. Loop. The loop doesn't explain who the very first John's father is because it is self-contradicting. To logically contradict itself is the whole point of it being a paradox.:bomb:

[quote name='Killer Rabbit']I also noticed her eyes glow blue like the T-X instead of red. But she doesn't have the liquid metal coating the T-X had. For example, if she had the liquid metal coating, she wouldn't have needed clothes to disguise herself as John. Plus, she doesn't have those built-in weapons.

I think it's obvious that her model is at least similar to the T-X. But I still think she's part human, and more human than just her brain. They made a big point of showing the audience that she could eat food. There's no real reason for a normal Terminator to be able to eat food. Installing an artificial gullet in T-X models is probably not that high on Skynet's to do list. She might have a human digestive tract, but the machine parts inside of her can sustain her without food. I guess I might be overthinking this, but they did make a point of her eating that one chip.[/quote]

The liquid metal is the mimetic alloy I was talking about. This is also how the T-X is able to have those built-in weapons. Whereas the T-1000 is all liquid metal, the T-X is a solid metallic skeleton with a full-body alloy coating. The alloy coating allows her to pass through time and the metallic skeleton allows her to hold her weapons inside her body.

I still think she's a full Termy. The artificial gullet I think is just another improvement by Skynet so their Infiltrators will be just that much harder to detect. If it helps them blend in better, I think Skynet would put it pretty high up its priority list. And it's not like Skynet can't multitask anyway since it's a distributed network-wide self-aware artificial intelligence. Making an artificial gullet is probably a minimal task to undertake.
 
All this time travel talk is giving me a headache.

Lets keep it civil people. It's a good show (so far) and lets just talk about what we know and what we think will happen to it pending a Cancellation from FOX. Seriously if they cancel one more show that's good, I am never watching FOX again.
 
[quote name='Killer Rabbit']So much T3 hate. Am I the only one who actually liked the third Terminator movie? I mean, it doesn't measure up to the first two, T2 is my favorite for sure. But it wasn't terrible, not by any means.[/QUOTE]

I didn't think it was bad at all. Some parts I did not like and T1 and T2 were alot better. I'm sure if Cameron made it, it would have been alot better. Unlike most fans I still count it as part of the movies so I don't see how the tv show can happen but if the tv show ends up not being crap I might change my mind.
 
jaykrue, I have to say I'm looking at it the same as gokou36. The first John can not be the son of Kyle. I see it like this

First John is born by someone else
Sends Kyle back into the past
Kyle gets Sarah Conner pregnent
Sarah has John only this time he is the son of Kyle.
In the future John sends Kyle back because he knows that Kyle is his father and is the one that has to be sent back.

The first John has to be born in order to send Kyle back. Kyle can not go back unless John is born. So someone else has to be his father in the first time line of events.
 
[quote name='sendme']jaykrue, I have to say I'm looking at it the same as gokou36. The first John can not be the son of Kyle. I see it like this

First John is born by someone else
Sends Kyle back into the past
Kyle gets Sarah Conner pregnent
Sarah has John only this time he is the son of Kyle.
In the future John sends Kyle back because he knows that Kyle is his father and is the one that has to be sent back.

The first John has to be born in order to send Kyle back. Kyle can not go back unless John is born. So someone else has to be his father in the first time line of events.[/QUOTE]


Nope. jaykrue explained it perfectly.

If you want to visualize it, draw a circle and put a line through it. The line is linear time, while the circle is Kyle.

In movie terms, I think you're thinking more of "Back to Future" type time travel which involves branching, and they avoid paradox at all cost.
 
[quote name='sendme']jaykrue, I have to say I'm looking at it the same as gokou36. The first John can not be the son of Kyle. I see it like this

First John is born by someone else
Sends Kyle back into the past
Kyle gets Sarah Conner pregnent
Sarah has John only this time he is the son of Kyle.
In the future John sends Kyle back because he knows that Kyle is his father and is the one that has to be sent back.

The first John has to be born in order to send Kyle back. Kyle can not go back unless John is born. So someone else has to be his father in the first time line of events.[/quote]
And again, I say, you're looking at things too linearly. As I've expressed time & time again, the nature of a predestination paradox is that it is naturally contradictory and circular - there's no beginning or end. There is no such thing as a 'beginning' kyle reese or a 'beginning' john. Even your example falls under that. Look at it carefully. Even if 'someone else' is the father of John, most likely he will be sent back in time to impregnate Sarah. According to predestination paradox, this person will most likely (but not necessarily) be named Kyle Reese since fate doesn't like itself to be thwarted. Sarah is fated to give birth to John Connor just as she is fated to be impregnated by someone from the future. The likelyhood of it being a person named Kyle is very high.

Were we to start discussing higher order physics then we can introduce other concepts such as string theory or multiple parallel time dimensions. Let's use your example. Say a different person is the father of John connor, all the events of T1-T3 happen. Call that Timeline 1. Now John sends back Kyle into 1984. But since he is affecting events here, Timeline 1 is no longer a possibility but still exists. You now have more than one timeline by virtue of a time traveler messing with things. One scenario is as laid out in Terminator 1 & Terminator 2 - Kyle impregnates Sarah only to die. Another is Kyle impregnates Sarah & lives. Now you have 3 timelines happening concurrently. Still another future is in which, Kyle dies but fails to impregnate Sarah and she is impregnated by someone else. That's 4 possible futures and so on and so forth. I won't go any further since the realm of possiblity is infinite. But the idea of multiple time dimensions is that anything you do at any point in time alters what dimension the time traveler exists but has no consequences for the previous timeline he came in. So, let's say the events of T1 & T2 happened as is and Skynet is effectively destroyed. That then means that all Kyle changed is a 'different' future & not his own timeline.

But how do you resolve such things? Well, there's an idea called Novikov's self-consistency principle which basically asserts that if an event exists and that would give rise to a paradox, or to any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero. Meaning there is probably no chance that timeline 3 & 4 exist. That says that time is not multiple, like in the case above, but rather like a river. Any rocks (time events such as Kyle traveling to the past) in its path, the river will go around and reform on the other side resulting in the same events happening. In this case, Kyle is destined to go to the past and Sarah is destined to be impregnated by him and John is destined to send Kyle back to the past. No significant changes are allowed. Judgment Day and the events leading up to it can be delayed (probably for an indefinite period) but it will eventually happen.

EDIT:

[quote name='greydt']Nope. jaykrue explained it perfectly.

If you want to visualize it, draw a circle and put a line through it. The line is linear time, while the circle is Kyle.
In movie terms, I think you're thinking more of "Back to Future" type time travel which involves branching, and they avoid paradox at all cost.[/quote]

Damn, I wish I'd just said that. :bomb:
 
[quote name='ITDEFX']All this time travel talk is giving me a headache.

Lets keep it civil people. It's a good show (so far) and lets just talk about what we know and what we think will happen to it pending a Cancellation from FOX. Seriously if they cancel one more show that's good, I am never watching FOX again.[/quote]

This show and House are pretty much the only reasons I ever tune in to FOX. Lord knows it isn't for their news programming....
 
[quote name='Killer Rabbit']This show and House are pretty much the only reasons I ever tune in to FOX. Lord knows it isn't for their news programming....[/quote]

You should try Bones, it's 100 times better than House. Plus you can watch the episode more than once and the show is still good.
 
[quote name='bigdaddy']You should try Bones, it's 100 times better than House. Plus you can watch the episode more than once and the show is still good.[/quote]

I have watched Bones. In no way was it better than House. I felt like I was watching an episode of Murder, She Wrote, with enough CSI thrown in to appeal to people under the age of 50.

Besides, I don't watch House for the drama or the mystery, although those are both fairly good for the type of pseudo-soap opera drama and murder mystery elements they have. I watch it because Hugh Laurie is awesome. He does a great delivery of some great lines.
 
[quote name='Killer Rabbit']I watch it because Hugh Laurie is awesome.[/quote]

It's the only reason why the show is on TV.

I like Bones for the storyline, it isn't the same thing every week like House, things move forward. As long as you have tried the show that's all I want, not enough people know of the show or give it a chance.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Then you still don't. As I said before, you're thinking too linearly where things have a beginning or end. There is no starting point. There is no beginning father. The loop exists without having a beginning. That example was to illustrate the idea of a pre-destination paradox. Pre- as in 'before or existing beforehand', destination as in 'end point of a journey or final point of fate', and paradox as in 'a logic statement or situation that contradicts itself'. A logic example of a paradox is the statement 'I always lie'. That statement contradicts itself because if I always lie then the only way for it to be true is for it to actually be false. Put together, you can loosely translate it into 'a pre-existing contradictory fate'. To reiterate the point, it's like a ring, you don't look for the 'beginning' or 'end' of a ring, a ring is always circular.

In this specific case, a Kyle will always go back in time and a John Connor will always be born regardless of any actions undertaken to thwart that cycle. Again, I repeat, there is no beginning and no end. It. Is. A. Loop. The loop doesn't explain who the very first John's father is because it is self-contradicting. To logically contradict itself is the whole point of it being a paradox.:bomb:[/quote]

No, YOU don't get what my question was from the beginning. I asked who the first John's father was and then you come and give this bs about pre-destination crap. There is ALWAYS a beginning, saying that there isn't is stupid.

So nobody knows who the first John's father is, lets just leave it at that.
 
[quote name='gokou36']No, YOU don't get what my question was from the beginning. I asked who the first John's father was and then you come and give this bs about pre-destination crap. There is ALWAYS a beginning, saying that there isn't is stupid.

So nobody knows who the first John's father is, lets just leave it at that.[/quote]

Then you're ignorant. You're trying to ask a metaphysical question that you think has a simple answer. Newsflash: it's a show about time travel. When discussing such things expect topics like predestination, paradoxes, multiple timelines, string theory, nth dimensional space, and other higher order physics terms to be used. And since that is the topic at hand, your question is a reflection of that. You ask who is the first John's father and I, again, reiterate that the reason nobody knows who the first John's father was is due to the idea that there is no first John's father. You seriously cannot come into a discussion about time travel & physics if you can't open your mind to the conceptual possibility of something that has no beginning. And that says more about your stupidity than anything else. I'm beginning to suspect you're probably not old enough to grasp such ideas.
 
[quote name='gokou36']No, YOU don't get what my question was from the beginning. I asked who the first John's father was and then you come and give this bs about pre-destination crap. There is ALWAYS a beginning, saying that there isn't is stupid.

So nobody knows who the first John's father is, lets just leave it at that.[/QUOTE]


Well, let's put it simpler:

1. You're born and your mom tells you that you're a product of her doing it with a dude the future version of you sent back.
2. You grow up, lead the fight vs. the robot army, and hey, there's the dude that is suppose to be your father.
3. You get the time travel device and send him back.

At #3, there's no final moment you'd go "PSYCH! I'm not sending you back!". If that happened, you would have never existed in the first place and none of it would have taken place. But it did happen, and that means you do send dad back to the past: that's the "pre-destination crap".

Another idea that's helps make sense of it is that the past, present and future exist. It might get tweaked and changed, but it all exists in the world of time travelling and you can jump from point to point - back or forward.

I think you're getting hung up on the idea that time barrels forward, and that the future doesn't exist yet until time reaches it, which requires the idea of a "first father". However, this type of thought would make movies like Terminator and Back to the Future incomprehensible.

The idea of pre-destination also follows with Judgement Day - it's almost futile to stop it because if it never happened, then terminators and Kyle would never have been sent back, etc. and that would be a paradox. Edit: Basically, Judgement Day will have to happen - it could be that Future John is just tweaking the results of the future, like keeping his mother alive, making preparations for humanity to rebound better after the robot war ends, etc.
 
[quote name='gokou36']No, YOU don't get what my question was from the beginning. I asked who the first John's father was and then you come and give this bs about pre-destination crap. There is ALWAYS a beginning, saying that there isn't is stupid.

So nobody knows who the first John's father is, lets just leave it at that.[/QUOTE]


Chill out....take a deep breath...have another hit.....listen to Jaykrue...you may learn something!
 
[quote name='gokou36']No, YOU don't get what my question was from the beginning. I asked who the first John's father was and then you come and give this bs about pre-destination crap. There is ALWAYS a beginning, saying that there isn't is stupid.

So nobody knows who the first John's father is, lets just leave it at that.[/QUOTE]

Chill out....take a deep breath...have another hit.....listen to Jaykrue...you may learn something!
 
[quote name='keithp']Chill out....take a deep breath...have another hit.....listen to Jaykrue...you may learn something![/quote]

Twice, even.:lol:

[quote name='ITDEFX']Dudes, what the hell did I just say? Keep it civil before this thread gets moderated.[/quote]

My last post was admittedly reactionary but I think I have been pretty civil up until then.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Then you're ignorant. You're trying to ask a metaphysical question that you think has a simple answer. Newsflash: it's a show about time travel. When discussing such things expect topics like predestination, paradoxes, multiple timelines, string theory, nth dimensional space, and other higher order physics terms to be used. And since that is the topic at hand, your question is a reflection of that. You ask who is the first John's father and I, again, reiterate that the reason nobody knows who the first John's father was is due to the idea that there is no first John's father. You seriously cannot come into a discussion about time travel & physics if you can't open your mind to the conceptual possibility of something that has no beginning. And that says more about your stupidity than anything else. I'm beginning to suspect you're probably not old enough to grasp such ideas.[/QUOTE]

LMAO, you're the one that keeps talking about this predestination crap and now you're calling me ignorant and not old enough to grasp the idea? Goodjob keeping it civil. Keep rambling about the same old thing gramps, because thats what you're doing.
 
From the Terminator Wiki Entry:
"The movie contains an example of a predestination paradox. The Terminator's mission is to go back in time and kill Sarah Connor, thereby preventing John Connor from being the leader of the resistance forces. However, had the Terminator not been sent back, Kyle Reese would not have been sent back to father John, preventing John from being born. The Terminator is also reverse engineered and used to create Skynet. By sending the Terminator and Kyle Reese back in time, Skynet and Connor ensure their own existence."

So it is all cyclical, or its just some poorly thought out sc-fi plot from the early 80's that was never expecting to have a sequel much less worry about the bickering over what is canon or what isn't.
 
[quote name='gokou36']LMAO, you're the one that keeps talking about this predestination crap and now you're calling me ignorant and not old enough to grasp the idea? Goodjob keeping it civil. Keep rambling about the same old thing gramps, because thats what you're doing.[/quote]

Please. If you were my grandkid, I'd smack your dad for raising someone so close-minded. I answered your question and with highly detailed explanations and if you can't accept that my answer potentially satisfies that question, that really does speak to your ignorance. Act high & mighty all you want, I'm not the one who looks stupid.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Please. If you were my grandkid, I'd smack your dad for raising someone so close-minded. I answered your question and with highly detailed explanations and if you can't accept that my answer potentially satisfies that question, that really does speak to your ignorance. Act high & mighty all you want, I'm not the one who looks stupid.[/quote]

True, but you're still egging him on.

Let's drop the time travel argument and stick to discussing the other parts of the show. We don't seem to be able to discuss paradoxes without name-calling, for whatever reason.
 
[quote name='Killer Rabbit']True, but you're still egging him on.

Let's drop the time travel argument and stick to discussing the other parts of the show. We don't seem to be able to discuss paradoxes without name-calling, for whatever reason.[/quote]

That's true. I just hate it when I'm trying to get an idea across but the person I'm trying to convey it to is not making any attempt at understanding. And would rather say my answer is "crap" instead of possibly learning something outside their own preconceived perceptions. It's like talking to a wall. But you're right and that's the last I'll speak of it to him.
 
[quote name='Deathmonkey']From the Terminator Wiki Entry:
"The movie contains an example of a predestination paradox. The Terminator's mission is to go back in time and kill Sarah Connor, thereby preventing John Connor from being the leader of the resistance forces. However, had the Terminator not been sent back, Kyle Reese would not have been sent back to father John, preventing John from being born. The Terminator is also reverse engineered and used to create Skynet. By sending the Terminator and Kyle Reese back in time, Skynet and Connor ensure their own existence."

So it is all cyclical, or its just some poorly thought out sc-fi plot from the early 80's that was never expecting to have a sequel much less worry about the bickering over what is canon or what isn't.[/QUOTE]

That wiki is incorrect. If the Terminator wasn't sent back and Kyle didn't go back, someone else would've been the father of John, just like how the first John was born. Now if Sarah was dead, then yes there would be no John.


[quote name='jaykrue']That's true. I just hate it when I'm trying to get an idea across but the person I'm trying to convey it to is not making any attempt at understanding. And would rather say my answer is "crap" instead of possibly learning something outside their own preconceived perceptions. It's like talking to a wall. But you're right and that's the last I'll speak of it to him.[/QUOTE]

Thats funny because I know exactly what you're trying to say and yet you were still trying to prove that there is no beginning. Lets see how long until you come back here and respond to this.
 
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