The "Oil of Olay! All Day and Every Day!" Disco Inferno Wrestling Thread

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Kind of goes without saying, but...
There was a lot of angry and shocked wrestlers backstage at RAW last night during Triple H’s promo when he said there were no challenges in the locker room for he and The Undertaker. While the promo was being watched backstage, one prominent RAW star who was pissed off made the comment that Triple H just called everyone “jobbers.” Some of the talents understood that Triple H was trying to hype the match with Undertaker but at the same time, a lot of people were upset.
It’s said that Triple H came up with the promo last night and it was not written for him by creative.
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[quote name='Trakan']I don't know, man. Have you seen the last two episodes of Raw?[/QUOTE]

Did not see last night's and hated last week's show. I'll give you that.

This is periphery to the whole "this promotion sucks more/no, THIS promotion sucks more!" stuff we talk about incessantly. This is employees making their company look embarrassing as well as (most important) that they're too thin-skinned to let shit slide. You know what some douchebag who undeservedly earns what Jeremy Borash gets paid to do looks like when they have to respond to snide comments about their program? A meta-douchebag.

Same thing with Eric Bischoff a few months ago - he called in on some podcast that like 7 people listen to in order to tear the host (guest?) a new asshole for facebooking a comment that if Eric Bischoff had produced the deliverables to a real business that he did to TNA, he'd have been shitcanned in 3 months - so Bischoff got on the show and mocked the goofball.

That's bush league. I don't like that WWE doesn't treat wrestling fans like they exist, but TNA employees have gone out of their way to personally alienate fans. Not through shitty programming, but by being shitheads to fans. Online, no less.
 
[quote name='Trakan']I don't know, man. Have you seen the last two episodes of Raw?[/QUOTE]While I agree with you, TNA has had a worse track record by far then Raw has.

[quote name='Ultimate Matt X']How do I make spoiler tags? I have some Smackdown info if anyone is interested.[/QUOTE]
Put the word "spoiler" in brackets, with a /spoiler at the end of what you're trying to keep hidden.
 
Myke, this spoiler is for you

* The Undertaker comes out and says "The Streak" cannot be broken and hypes his upcoming Wrestlemania XXVII match against Triple H. He entered and exited to "Ain't No Grave" by Johnny Cash.

Though I wonder if they added some rain/lightning/gongs to it..which wouldn't bother me.
 
Okay here were go, some info from Smackdown:

-As already mentioned, Undertaker used the Johnny Cash song for his complete theme.

-Christian returned on Smackdown and replaced Rey in the dark match main event. Wonder why Mysterio wasn't there.

-Undertaker didn't bury The Corre or Kane like HHH did Sheamus on Raw.

-Cody Rhodes cut a pretty good promo on Rey Mysterio.

-The Corre attacked Big Show during his match with Kane, but then Kane attacked them for getting in his business.

-Crowd seemed pretty into everything, I felt it was a good show. Better than Raw anyway, but that is no real compliment.

-Cleveland "wisely" chanted USA during the Edge and Del Rio contract signing, heh.

-Lots of wrestlers getting heat by mentioning Lebron throughout the night.

-Curtis somebody won NXT. I honestly don't remember his full name. The heel was more interesting though.
 
Just so you guys know Borash has denied the message:
"@JeremyBorash
For the record, the many of you that know me online know I would never wish harm on anyone or anyone's family. Twitter has been contacted."
Click to expand...

edit: I should have watched the video 1st.. it says it right on there.
 
Can somebody PM me that may be able to help with No Mercy roms. I have and can help with the TNA vs ROH rom, but beyond that I don't really know where to look or what is available.
 
I was watching that video waiting for the fuckin' WCW and ECW guys to show up. I think I saw one snippet of Booker T. That's more what I was getting at.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']fuckin' A. Thanks guys!

Also, March 26th of this month marks the 10th (!!!) anniversary of the end of WCW Nitro.

Let's take a look back at how that feud ended:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ABYB2ObWzY

Boy, that's...wait, that's the end of the WCW/ECW vs WWF feud? Goddamn, that angle gets worse every time I watch it.[/QUOTE]
The Vince McMahon Show, starring Vince McMahon.
 
I watched that video tonight, thinking to myself, "what would it take for McMahon to admit WWF fucked up the biggest moneymaker in wrestling history in a way that nobody could have ever imagined?"

The only thing worse they could have done to it is bring back the 1997 NWA invasion angle, and put "Bodacious Bart and Bombastic Bob"-era Midnight Express in the middle of the...well, it doesn't seem fair to call it a squash...fucking obliteration (they were beaten to oblidicree, to paraphrase Shane Douglas) of DDP and Kanyon at the hands of Undertaker and Kane.

...and missus undertaker. michelle mccool number one, I mean.
 
[quote name='mykevermin'] (they were beaten to oblidicree, to paraphrase Shane Douglas)[/QUOTE]
You know, for years, I'd wondered just how exactly to spell that. Ever since I'd first heard it, I wanted to know how to spell it, and you sir have show me the way! Thank you!
 
I used to think WWE got too much criticism for how bad the Invasion was, but after reading some of the wrestling books I changed my opinion some. I agree that it was stupid as far as storytelling go, but I'm still not sure if it mattered that much money wise.

I think unless they were willing to buy out the major contracts of guys like Goldberg, Hogan, Sting, and Flair I think it was always doomed to not matter much financially. I know a lot of those guys showed up later, but they needed to show up right away. I'm also not sure how much it would have improved ratings/made money even if they did sign them though. WCW was already a dying brand. Internet "smart" fans would have cared, but I'm not sure about casual fans, they were already not watching WCW.

So yeah booking wise it was pretty stupid at times, but I'm not sure if done right if it really would have had a long term impact or at least enough of one to justify buying out some the WCW contracts that they would have needed to buy out to bring in the wrestlers.
 
Ric Flair showed up on tv the day after Survivor Series 2001.

the nWo showed up 3 months later.

Goldberg showed up...okay, he was 2003. About 1 year and a half later.

I think star power is a reasonable argument. But it's inadequate in the face of WWE's booking of the angle.
 
I get what you're saying about those guys showing up soon, but I think even just those 6 months were important. Now if the nWo could have showed up during the early days of the angle I think things could have been different. You're right that shit writing was the main reason it failed, but good writing with inadequate talent would have probably put WWE in the same financial situation a year or so removed from the angle.

Thinking about the nWo more, I think maybe a proper nWo invasion early on might have been the best decision business wise if they could have signed them to the angle early. Though I think Hogan would have turned face too soon no matter what they would have tried, so I don't think he could have added much to the angle.

Not getting Sting, Goldberg, and other primarily WCW guys (not the nWo) was their biggest mistake I think as far as giving the angle some drawing power. Though like I originally said, I'm not sure if financially it would have been worth the invest on their part.
 
From reading Jericho's book, it seems a lot of the WCW guys had trouble adjusting to the WWE style of work. The angle fell flat not only because none of the big money WCW guys were involved, but also because Vince McMahon didn't trust the WCW guys to do an adequate job in the ring.
 
All they really needed was Flair, Goldberg, and nWo. Sting never would have signed, and the other people they had would have been fine.

I still blame the whole fiasco on Buff Bagwell and that shitty fucking main event they tried to do with him and Booker. That to me was when the inVasion really died.
 
^ I hear that match cited a lot. But if someone is ready to pull the plug on a mutli-million-dollar investment over one match, then WWE should have gone out of business before Vince McMahon was even born. It's an excuse to justify McMahon stopping doing what he didn't want to do in the first place. Also, they were in Tacoma Washington that night - WCW, for as popular as it was, was still viewed as a "southern" promotion. Moreover, WWF fans had been taught to hate everything WCW since the "WWF: The New Generation" era w/ the Nacho Man short vignettes.

Buff/Booker is the fall guy in this whole exercise. It's not fair to point to that as the need for WCW to die. It was the first "WCW match" on WWF tv, FFS.

Now, whose fault is that - the WCW guys, or Vince McMahon?

People wanted to see WCW succeed. Not Vince McMahon's vision of what WCW should be. The legacy of Crockett promotions/NWA/WCW was full of excellent wrestling. To try to force that into WWE style wrestling is starting off with a wrong idea. WCW guys could work WCW style. Or pro wrestling style. Or whatever you want to call it that isn't WWE style.

Ask a David Lee Roth fan what they think of Sammy Hagar-era Van Halen. Although McMahon's treatment of WCW is more like Gary Cherone.

I'm sure McMahon didn't think the WCW guys could work a lick. But McMahon doesn't like pro wrestling, don't forget that. Remaking a company in your image is a terrible idea. There was tons of money to be made on that angle, you must be joking, Matt X. He spent $2 million to buy the entire *company* (which is a downright steal, and if you read the actual story about how Bischoff lost WCW to McMahon, a bit on the corrupt side, too), what's a little bit more?

Look at WWE right now: lacking star power. They spent money to bring in The Rock, Steve Austin and Trish Stratus (sorta), Kevin Nash and Booker T. Why couldn't they have done that then, other than simply not wanting to see it succeed?

WWE kept the idea going - even today - with the "brand split." The way their shows are all produced and overseen by the same people, the way they all have the same flow/pacing and format, they don't seem distinct. It's like going to see Man...Or Astroman? on tour when they had 3 or more bands simultaneously touring about 15 years ago. You're seeing the same thing as someone else at the same moment in another city, but you're also seeing something different only in terms of the persons performing.

The brand split is put-your-underpants-on-backwards stupid. Quick, name the Intercontinental champion. Ten seconds, no google. Can you? I can't. If you can (I think it's Kofi), name the last 4 IC champs. And who they beat.
 
Do I think there was a way it could've worked? Certainly. Do I think that it would've involved way more money and effort than Vince was willing to put in? Definitely. If he had ever been able to get past the idea of 'VICTORY!', that would've been the first step. As we all know, though, that was never going to enter the equation.

First and foremost, before any talk of WWE's bad booking, is the simple fact that WCW was a dead company. It didn't happen when Vince bought it, it was a progressive thing over the final year of the company. Fans stopped watching. No one cared. It was a joke. Once you've gotten down to the top names in your company being Booker T, Jeff Jarrett, and Scott Steiner you have a problem. The fans (both casual and IWC) wanted to see 1998 WCW vs. WWF. That was never in the cards. Since people had stopped watching, WCW evolved (or devolved, depending on your view) into something markedly different. The names and faces closely associated with WCW, mainly the big guys that jumped ship from WWF, were either gone or as good as.

To me, that was the first hurdle that WWF was never going to overcome. The WCW that 'invaded'? That wasn't far off from what WCW was when it died. Sure, we didn't have people like Flair or Sting, but the bulk of the regular talent was still there. Most relevant people had either had guaranteed contracts to sit out or had already jumped to WWF before WCW went downhill.

So, to do the question thing again... Do I think the Invasion would've been more successful if Flair, Sting, Hogan, Goldberg, and the nWo had shown up on that first night? Very likely. Do I think that WWF's booking still would've stunk? Definitely.

A key point to make is that even booked almost the same way, the angle would've gone over with those guys, because THAT'S the WCW people wanted to see. Had we been offered the nWo vs. WWF guys right away, people would've overlooked poor booking. Had they given us the matches we wanted between these guys, it would've gone over better, no question about it. But, what we got was bad booking involving people we didn't give two shits about. Did anyone really get excited about Booker T vs. The Rock? How about Scott Steiner vs. HHH? Let's flip the history and talk about, I don't know, The Rock vs. Kevin Nash. Austin vs. Goldberg. Flair vs. HHH. Angle vs. Hogan. Those matches would've carried the Invasion, no matter how poorly it was run.

Now, I fully blame WWF for bungling it. Once the McMahons became the focal point and they started fronting people like Austin and Angle, it was over. Done. Buried. As we all have talked about, a WCW/ECW invasion ended with two WWF guys in the ring. Against each other. To think that anything other than bad booking killed it is foolish. What I will assert, though, is that given what WWF was handed, I'm not sure *how* I would've booked that angle to make it as good as everyone wanted it to be. It was never going to live up to the hype as it was, but to cripple the feud by not having any of the guys that most people identified as 'WCW'? Dead in the water.

So, in essence, was the failure of the Invasion totally WWF's fault? Completely. Would it have gone over better if they had bought out some contracts? Definitely. At the end of the day, WWF screwed up, and they deserve full derision for that. However, with the crop of talent that came in, it was an uphill battle from the word 'go'. Booker/Bagwell is just the epitome of that. They could've had the match of the century and it would've meant nothing.
 
Hogan/DDP star
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AX03M1d5n0o

WWE's planning to release some mid-card talent in favor of FCW guys after Wrestlemania. You've got five choices.. who would you pick?

1. Great Khali
2. Chris Masters
3. JTG
4. R-Truth
5. Primo

I'm willing to bet that Tyson Kidd and DH Smith will be on the list.. and I know that Vickie was kayfabe fired, but maybe they'll actually get rid of both her and Chavo..
 
[quote name='Scorch']Hogan/DDP star
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AX03M1d5n0o

WWE's planning to release some mid-card talent in favor of FCW guys after Wrestlemania. You've got five choices.. who would you pick?

1. Great Khali
2. Chris Masters
3. JTG
4. R-Truth
5. Primo

I'm willing to bet that Tyson Kidd and DH Smith will be on the list.. and I know that Vickie was kayfabe fired, but maybe they'll actually get rid of both her and Chavo..[/QUOTE]


Tatsu, JTG, Primo, Masters and DH Smith



Triple H made the decision at Monday’s RAW to end his feud with Sheamus and do the angle where he put him through the table with a Pedigree. Triple H wanted to not forget about the feud with Sheamus but wants full focus on his current WrestleMania 27 storyline with The Undertaker.
Click to expand...

Seems like this could've been done a bit better, don't you think?
 
What they really should have done on that last Nitro was have them face WWF guys. Now THAT would have been the greatest night in the history of our sport...

Even if they just had the wCw guys at RAW and have them come out and cut promos would have been amazing. Where was RAw that night? I know Nitro was in Panama Beach.
 
Ok, so I'm going to put my two cents on the Invasion. For the life of me, I don't remember much of it at all though. I guess by then, the demise of WCW was killing my overall interest in wrestling so I really wasn't paying too much attention. That said...

Obviously, one of the big problems was the lack of main event talent that Vince brought in. Sting, the nWo, Goldberg, and Flair would have helped a lot. Hell, even just Goldberg would have done a ton for WCW. Bring him in, but keep him as the big monster. Even if WCW was still booked weakly, them having potentially the best guy on their team is a giant shot in the arm. I mean, with the way he was booked, who could actually take him down?

Another thing was, that for some reason, Vince saw this as just crushing the competition instead of building his empire. Why wouldn't you push some of those WCW guys? They were now his employees. Make them seem valuable so further down the road, they are useful. Buff is a perfect example. I really don't know what the general perception of him is, but I remember liking him back in the day. Why not make him a leader? Make him seem more important than he ever did in WCW? Instead, he literally disappeared after one match. I could have definitely seen this guy has someone who could have stuck around for a while.
 
[quote name='masked lemon']Where was RAw that night? I know Nitro was in Panama Beach.[/QUOTE]

If I remember Shane's speech that night correctly, I think it was cleveland ohio. Will never forget that speech.

I was loving invasion at the very beginning... It was exciting to see the WCW guys appear.. DDP's debut was freaking bad ass but they never put him over taker... They were a joke. The only one from the invasion angle that probably got over were RVD and Kidman.

Heck.. the most memorable monents were prob when RVD/DREAMER came out of the crowd and the RAW from the Garden where Booker attacked Vince.
 
Another reason I think the blame is heaped on Buff/Booker is actually a WWE-created fable (not being a conspiracy theorist, but let's be honest that a lot of wrestling history is WWE-created, and that doesn't require being on a DVD video) is because of what Buff did prior to the match. Evidently, a WWE Agent (Arn Anderson?) told Buff to not worry if the fans didn't know who he was (you saw Jim Cornette say the same thing to a jobber -Mike Modest?- in the film 'Beyond the Mat'). Buff...um...rebuffed the claim, and put himself over huge backstage. WWE being the political place that it is, well, that simply means Buff wasn't going to get anything, no matter how over he was or could have been.

I understand the need to knock someone down a pedestal if they walk in the front door thinking they're King Shit of fuck Mountain, but there's no need to bury someone to death and back. Or shitcan them.

WWE is a corporation, an organization, a publicly traded company whose primary concern should be bottom line. A company focused on bottom line shouldn't be concerned with employees thinking they're hot shit on a plate from day one. If they perform well and get over, they perform well and get over. There are plenty of egos backstage at any level of wrestling. In fact, I hear that this one guy is currently overseeing the booking process for the entire company as well as writing his own feuds. He even went so far as to book himself to reignite a potentially hot year-old-feud and end it within 15 seconds of reignition by killing his opponent dead. What kind of ego would do that? Man, I bet that guy gets shown the door, since he's clearly suffering from a Buff Bagwell-level of delusion.
 
I agree with a lot of that, but I also look at Bagwell's behavior that night as more of a 'last straw' than a one-off thing. I always got the sense that Bagwell was always sort of tough to deal with, and they actually just gave him a shot because they were lacking star power and, hell, he was under contract anyway. So, yeah, I do think that sometimes the 'taking people down a peg' goes too far, but I get the distinct sense that Bagwell was someone that deserved it. If anything, I was always more amazed that he was chosen for that spot in the first place, which to me illustrated just how shallow that WCW talent pool really was.
 
As far as Vince's investment I think it was more about his ego and getting the WCW library. Rightfully or not, I don't think Vince ever really saw the invasion as a big money maker. I mean I'm sure he didn't plan on losing money, but it's hard to speculate what his motivations were.

I still think Hogan/nWo couldn't have added much to the story because that fans would have turned him face too soon, like they did at WrestleMania 18. But who knows.

I like discussing the topic as its interesting to speculate on it all, but I still think without a much larger financial investment in the angle it wouldn't have had that big of an impact even with better booking.
 
^ I don't get the point about Hogan turning face. The whole point of invasion was to have two rival promotions. An entire *promotion* shouldn't be cast as a heel - when you do that and put the product on its own, the product fails. See also: NWO Nitro, NWO Souled Out PPV. That's another reason the angle died: the entire fucking *company* of WCW was cast as the heel. That doesn't make any fucking sense.

The point is that it was doomed from the start precisely because he was unwilling to make the financial investment to bring in the needed talent to boost the product.

Compare that with the money he's spending in 2010 to cover up for the fact that all the talent is retired and they're left with fuck-all for an upper card. Think of it this way: right now Miz is being buried as champ like Chris Jericho shoveling dogshit for Stephanie McMahon leading up to him dropping the belt to Triple H at whatever wrestlemania that was. 18, I think. Miz is an afterthought to the *real* feud: Cena-Rock.

Can you imagine what the hype level for Wrestlemania would be right now if Cena-Miz didn't have the Rock in the middle, and had to stand on its own, using the two wrestlers in the match?

Vince McMahon knows it would be insanity to leave those two to build to WrestleMania on their own. He responded in an appropriate way, spending money in the process. WWE is committed to making WM27 a success.

The same commitment, interest, and expenditure can not be said about the Invasion angle.
 
[quote name='masked lemon']Where was RAw that night? I know Nitro was in Panama Beach.[/QUOTE]
Cleveland, OH - I was there. Definitely a surreal moment to even hear Vince mention WCW on WWF television, let alone to simulcast the two.
 
Time again to show how out of the loop I am. Was Hogan seriously barred from using the "Hulk" name due to complaints from Marvel comics?
 
All this talk about invasions makes me think of the UWFi/NJPW angle. Anyone remember/read about that?


EDIT:

POSSIBLE Wrestlemania card spoilers:

- According to one source, here's what WWE has planned for WrestleMania 27 as of this week's creative meetings. Keep in mind things are always changing.

Special Guest Host: The Rock

WWE Title Match
John Cena vs. The Miz

World Heavyweight Title Match
Alberto Del Rio vs. Edge

The Streak on the Line
Triple H vs. The Undertaker

CM Punk vs. Randy Orton

John Morrison, Kelly Kelly and Trish Stratus vs. Dolph Ziggler, Layla and Michelle McCool

Wade Barrett, Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater and Justin Gabriel vs. Big Show, Kane, Kofi Kingston and Christian

Rey Mysterio vs. Cody Rhodes

Jerry Lawler vs. Michael Cole, Special Referee: Steve Austin
Cole's trainer Jack Swagger will be in his corner.

WWE United States Champion Daniel Bryan vs. Sheamus
Gail Kim will be in Bryan's corner while The Bellas will be with Sheamus.

* Another undetermined Divas match will also take place. There will be no Money in the Bank this year.

....fuck
 
I'm so glad there's no MitB this year. RVD winning it was the last time it wasn't a predictable situation. That was also the worst MitB match to boot.

UWFi/NJPW started out well but was painful from what I've read and seen. There was a Hashimoto/Takada match I really liked but MMA stuck around in NJPW for way too long after the interpromotional feud crumbled. I remember that was around the time I stopped having an active interest in puro, when Inoki would feed his wrestlers to MMA fighters from other promotions.
 
Fans knew WCW from when they were beating WWF, atleast. Even diehard WWF fans knew about the nWo, Goldberg, and Ric Flair. The problem is that the WWF purposely buried WCW from the get-go. They tried to pit WCW at its worst against WWF at its best.

I also don't buy that the fans didn't care. WCW workers were getting cheered for attacking WWF guys at first. That's when Vince's ego shifted into overdrive.
 
Here's something to ponder:

If Cole and Lawler are wrestling, who the fuck is going to be calling the match? There's no way in hell Vince would go with Booker, Striker, and Matthews to call the biggest PPV of the year.

I guess the logical choice would be JR, right?
 
[quote name='masked lemon']Here's something to ponder:

If Cole and Lawler are wrestling, who the fuck is going to be calling the match? There's no way in hell Vince would go with Booker, Striker, and Matthews to call the biggest PPV of the year.

I guess the logical choice would be JR, right?[/QUOTE]


There's also Josh Matthews, and perhaps Matt Striker.... Just sayin'
 
[quote name='ShinSolidus']There's also Josh Matthews, and perhaps Matt Striker.... Just sayin'[/QUOTE]

[quote name='masked lemon']Here's something to ponder:
There's no way in hell Vince would go with Booker, Striker, and Matthews to call the biggest PPV of the year. [/QUOTE]


... Just sayin'
 
[quote name='ShinSolidus']There's also Josh Matthews, and perhaps Matt Striker.... Just sayin'[/QUOTE]

Well yeah, but what about that announcer guy from Tough Enough and the former ECW guy who announces now....just sayin'
 
Or they could go with the guy who does backstage interviews and the guy who used to have the teacher gimmick... just sayin'
 
They should bring back these two totally underrated duos and have them call the match at the same time. Snow/Coach and Styles/Gertner. (Heat and ECW on TNN)
 
[quote name='davo1224']We need to get VPW2 online play going by the way. It's the same thing as No Mercy.[/QUOTE]

Except you have no idea what the hell the menu choices are because they're still in Japanese. Only the wrestler names got changed in that save file posted before.
 
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