Thousands Rally to Continue Massive Lawbreaking

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Thousands Rally For EDIT: Iillegal Immigrants' Rights

(CBS) PHOENIX Thousands of people across the country protested Friday against legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants, with demonstrators in such cities as Los Angeles, Phoenix and Atlanta staging school walkouts, marches and work stoppages.

Congress is considering bills that would make it a felony to be illegally in the United States, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border. The proposals have angered many Hispanics.

The Los Angeles demonstration led to fights between black and Hispanic students at one high school, but the protests were largely peaceful, authorities said.

Chantal Mason, a sophomore at George Washington Preparatory High, said black students jumped Hispanic students as they left classes to protest a bill passed the House in December that would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally.

"It was horrible, horrible," Mason said. "It's ridiculous that a bunch of black students would jump on Latinos like that, knowing they're trying to get their freedom."

Protester oblivious to the fact that, yes, they are a criminal.

In Phoenix, police said 10,000 demonstrators marched to the office of Republican Sen. Jon Kyl, co-sponsor of a bill that would give illegal immigrants up to five years to leave the country. The turnout clogged a major thoroughfare.

"They're here for the American Dream," said Malissa Greer, 29, who joined a crowd estimated by police to be at least 10,000 strong. "God created all of us. He's not a God of the United States, he's a God of the world."

Kyl had no immediate comment on the rally.

At least 500 students at Huntington Park High School near Los Angeles walked out of classes in the morning. Hundreds of the students, some carrying Mexican flags, walked down the middle of Los Angeles streets, police cruisers behind them.

The students visited two other area high schools, trying to encourage students to join their protest, but the schools were locked down to keep students from leaving, said Los Angeles district spokeswoman Monica Carazo.

In Georgia, activists said tens of thousands of workers did not show up at their jobs Friday after calls for a work stoppage to protest a bill passed by the Georgia House on Thursday.

That bill, which has yet to gain Senate approval, would deny state services to adults living in the U.S. illegally and impose a 5 percent surcharge on wire transfers from illegal immigrants.

Supporters say the Georgia measure is vital to homeland security and frees up limited state services for people legally entitled to them. Opponents say it unfairly targets workers meeting the demands of some of the state's largest industries.

Teodoro Maus, an organizer of the Georgia protest, estimated as many as 80,000 Hispanics did not show up for work. About 200 converged on the steps of the Georgia Capitol, some wrapped in Mexican flags and holding signs reading: "Don't panic, we're Hispanic" and "We have a dream, too."

Jennifer Garcia worried what would the proposal would do to her family. She said her husband is an illegal Mexican immigrant.

"If they send him back to Mexico, who's going to take care of them and me?" Garcia said of herself and her four children. "This is the United States. We need to come together and be a whole."

On Thursday, thousands of people filled the streets of Milwaukee for what was billed as "A Day Without Latinos" to protest efforts in Congress to target undocumented workers. Police estimated more than 10,000 people joined the demonstrations and march to downtown Milwaukee. Organizers put the number at 30,000.
Link

 

[bmulligan]

What's so wrong about entering the country legally? Is it too much to ask that you get a mexican passaporte and get an estampa put in it and apply for a work visa and green card? Why is this too much to ask?

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

[quote name='bmulligan']What's so wrong about entering the country legally? Is it too much to ask that you get a mexican passaporte and get an estampa put in it and apply for a work visa and green card? Why is this too much to ask?[/QUOTE]

my Spanish vocabulary will forever include the words passporte and estampa.

 

[alonzomourning23]

Yup, mass jailing of illegals (I assume that's the goal of making it a felony), just what the prison system needs.

[quote name='bmulligan']What's so wrong about entering the country legally? Is it too much to ask that you get a mexican passaporte and get an estampa put in it and apply for a work visa and green card? Why is this too much to ask?[/quote]

Because most are unable to recieve a green card. The u.s. only wants to take in so many at a time.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']The u.s. only wants to take in so many at a time.[/QUOTE]

Huh, no shit.

You mean we can't be a repository for every resident of Central America?

Who knew.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Huh, no shit.

You mean we can't be a repository for every resident of Central America?

Who knew.[/quote]

Thank you for supporting my argument against mulligan's point that they just don't hand out green cards to everyone who wants to come here. I'm not used to you backing me up.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

I am all for legal immigration. However we need to have some kind of limits or quotas in place. I'd go as far as the Dutch who now want a basic introduction to their culture and language.

There are sections of the country that would no doubt be shocked to discover that if they had to pay real salaries and wages to workers that their restaurant, landscaping and construction costs would go through the roof. I'm sure nationwide we'd hate the increase in produce prices.

That's the price we pay.

There are countless illegals here though that have never tried to go the legal route. bmulligan pointing that out is credible. I'm not really backing either of you, you both have points but we can't continue the current path unabated.

The biggest problem I have is not the jobs illegal's "take" because I don't think many Americans want to be dishwashers, lettuce pickers etc. The problem I have is giving them extended social services.

Complicated issue, no easy answers, but something needs to be done. We're finally seeing a debate start though that should have happened 25 years ago.

 

[evanft]

So, they rallied for Bush's warrantless spying program?

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I am all for legal immigration. However we need to have some kind of limits or quotas in place. I'd go as far as the Dutch who now want a basic introduction to their culture and language.

There are sections of the country that would no doubt be shocked to discover that if they had to pay real salaries and wages to workers that their restaurant, landscaping and construction costs would go through the roof. I'm sure nationwide we'd hate the increase in produce prices.

That's the price we pay.

There are countless illegals here though that have never tried to go the legal route. bmulligan pointing that out is credible. I'm not really backing either of you, you both have points but we can't continue the current path unabated.

The biggest problem I have is not the jobs illegal's "take" because I don't think many Americans want to be dishwashers, lettuce pickers etc. The problem I have is giving them extended social services.

Complicated issue, no easy answers, but something needs to be done. We're finally seeing a debate start though that should have happened 25 years ago.[/QUOTE]

I agree it's a great thing that this issue is finally being discussed at the national level, where it desperately needs action. Right now there are 10+ million illegals in the country and our legal immigration levels are some of the lowest in our history. This makes no sense. We should do the responsible and logical thing: clamp down on illegal immigration and those who exploit illegal immigrants by paying them under the table, while at the same time increasing legal immigration. There are plenty of people waiting to immigrate legally, with the necessary background checks, and who want to actually be citizens of this country and not simply Mexicans or Central/South Americans who send money home. We should take those who want to be Americans first.

As for the jails issue, you'd be surprised, alonzo, to learn that already illegal immigrants make up 30% (!) of the federal prison population already. Furthermore, there are other crime-related issues directly related to illegal immigration:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html

in 2000, for example, nearly 30 percent of federal prisoners were foreign-born

In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater.

ETC ETC ETC

Time to deal with this issue once and for all and create a fair and logical immigration environment. I haven't yet looked at Kyl's legislation, but I can't see the harm in bettering border enforcement. And Bush's guest-worker program is a joke when instead we should be increasing legal permanent immigration.

 

[crazytalkx]

Both of my parents were at one point illegal immigrants (mother from El Salvador and dad from Mexico) but managed to get their green cards and work an honest living. I do agree though that the majority/most of them do little to add to the country, I live near LA, isn't exactly pretty what's happened to that city over the years.

Make it easier for the "good ones" to get green cards and increase border security. We aren't all criminals, .

 

[alonzomourning23]

PAD, I wasn't saying anything on what we should do about immigration, simply that many of them do not have legal status simply because they cannot get it. I would argue that the likely reason some have not tried (and I have absolutely no idea was percentage that would be) is because they don't think they're going to get it anyway. Though I didn't think you were intentionally siding with me, just that you attacked without fully realizing what you were saying.

El, my point was that we already have overcrowded, underfunded prisons. Increasing the prison population with people who do not pose a threat to people isn't a route I want to take. That's what this is likely to do.

But, while illegal immigration itself may play some role in childrens likelihood of engaging in illegal crime due (as a result of socioeconomic status), there are also a lot of smugglers. I don't really think that's what's at issue here. If it was then these issues would be purely border control, but the goal is a crackdown on all forms of illegal immigration due to percieved harm on americans and the economy, not just the few who are here for illegal means.

Though, beyond what's already mentioned, crackdowns on the border pay into the hands of human smugglers, because those looking for work will need assistance. We'd capture more smugglers, but there would be side effects. Though, the main reason we have so many illegals is because the situation is much better here than in their home country. As long as extreme poverty and hopelessness exists, particularly in south america, we are always going to have problems with illegal immigration. We are simply dealing with the symptoms. There are things we can do in regards to more fair international policies but, in the end, the solution is far beyond our means.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']
El, my point was that we already have overcrowded, underfunded prisons. Increasing the prison population with people who do not pose a threat to people isn't a route I want to take. That's what this is likely to do.
[/QUOTE]

No, see, the point is that we DEPORT them. Making it a felony is, in effect, tagging them so that they can't re-enter. It's meaningless unless we can muster a semblance of security or control of the borders, but it is a good incentive to make the crossing legally instead of illegally if there are more penalties involved in an illegal entry.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']El, my point was that we already have overcrowded, underfunded prisons. Increasing the prison population with people who do not pose a threat to people isn't a route I want to take. That's what this is likely to do.[/quote]

What is your solution then? Shall we just deport them and have them try again to cross? And as my statistics (there are more where that came from) indicate, a lot of these people ARE a threat. Sure, most of them just want to cross and get a job, but a good many are dangerous criminals. Thus the need for stopping illegal immigration cold and increasing legal immigration, where people are subjected to background checks and not let in if they are violent felons.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']There are things we can do in regards to more fair international policies but, in the end, the solution is far beyond our means.[/QUOTE]

Disagree. We can fortify the border to stop illegal immigration, first of all. Less will come if they know they won't make it. Secondly we can increase legal immigration to address labor market issues.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='crazytalkx']Both of my parents were at one point illegal immigrants (mother from El Salvador and dad from Mexico) but managed to get their green cards and work an honest living. I do agree though that the majority/most of them do little to add to the country, I live near LA, isn't exactly pretty what's happened to that city over the years.

Make it easier for the "good ones" to get green cards and increase border security. We aren't all criminals, .[/QUOTE]

Exactly, make border security strong and let the honest non-criminal people who want to immigrate get their chance legally.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']What is your solution then? Shall we just deport them and have them try again to cross? And as my statistics (there are more where that came from) indicate, a lot of these people ARE a threat. Sure, most of them just want to cross and get a job, but a good many are dangerous criminals. Thus the need for stopping illegal immigration cold and increasing legal immigration, where people are subjected to background checks and not let in if they are violent felons.[/quote]

Impoverished children come with impoverished parents. Add into being illegal, the already present risk of criminal behavior increases. Your argument assumes that the people who chose to come here (the parents) are the ones in prison. You also ignore those involved in smuggling, and gang activity, who are likely to find their way around these protections anyway. The honest workers are the ones who are most easily stopped.

We can't stop illegal immigration completely unless other conditions are in place, and the implementation of such conditions require much more than the u.s. alone is capable of.

Disagree. We can fortify the border to stop illegal immigration, first of all. Less will come if they know they won't make it. Secondly we can increase legal immigration to address labor market issues.

Last I checked many smuggle people, drugs etc. past border patrol, not just through unguarded areas.

Honestly though, considering various other things that need our attention, immigration isn't high on my list other than to increase legal immigration.

 

[Indiana]

Yeah I don't understand the idea of it being a felony if you are here illegally. What good would that do? Put 11 million people in prision? That's really going to help our society. Why can't we come up for a way for people to enter the country legally and have these people made legal or sent back to whre they came from? I have no problem with making them all legal through some sort of federal documentation process.

 

[bmulligan]

Well, we could jail all the illegals and make them build the fence. Then make them stand on the mexican side before finishing the last partition and the barbed wire.

 

[redline]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Chantal Mason, a sophomore at George Washington Preparatory High, said black students jumped Hispanic students as they left classes to protest a bill passed the House in December that would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally.

"It was horrible, horrible," Mason said. "It's ridiculous that a bunch of black students would jump on Latinos like that, knowing they're trying to get their freedom."[/QUOTE]
It's time for enslaved hispanics to rise up and demand their freedom! We brought them to this country against their will, and now they should be made citizens of the USA as reparation. Give them liberty, or give them death!!

/sarcasm

 

[redline]

[quote name='bmulligan']Well, we could jail all the illegals and make them build the fence. Then make them stand on the mexican side before finishing the last partition and the barbed wire.[/QUOTE]
That wall in Escape from New York worked pretty well in keeping those pesky New Yorkers contained, I don't see why they couldn't build something like that.

 

[alonzomourning23]

It looks like you guys are losing:

WASHINGTON (AP) — As immigration rights activists rallied outside the Capitol, senators broke Monday from the House's get-tough approach by refusing to make criminals of people who help illegal immigrants.

The Senate Judiciary Committee adopted an amendment by Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., that would protect church and charitable groups, as well as individuals, from criminal prosecution for providing food, shelter, medical care and counseling to undocumented immigrants. (Related video: Senators take on immigration)

"Charitable organizations, like individuals, should be able to provide humanitarian assistance to immigrants without fearing prosecution," Durbin said.

Was this a sudden change of heart, of a fear of losing votes?

More than 500,000 people rallied in Los Angeles on Saturday, demanding that Congress abandon the House-passed measures that would make being an undocumented immigrant a felony and would erect a 700-mile fence along the 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-27-senate-immigration_x.htm

Judging by the sheer size of the outrage, protests like the one above being the best example, as well as opposition from their base (religious groups), me thinks it was the latter.

Though I think the best unintentional denouncement came from Bush:

[quote]"No one should play on people's fears or try to pit neighbors against each other," Bush said. "No one should pretend that immigrants are threats to America's identity because immigrants have shaped America's identity."

"No one should claim that immigrants are a burden on our economy because the work and enterprise of immigrants helps sustain our economy," the president said. "We should not give in to pessimism. If we work together I am confident we can meet our duty to fix our immigration system and deliver a bill that protects our people, upholds our laws and makes our people proud."[/quote]

edit: for some reason that last one won't go into quote form.

 

[crazytalkx]

I was walking around in my high school at brunch time and heard screaming. Turned around, saw a few hundred fellow students running towards the exit gates. I agree with Indiana, not the whole "lets make those filthy, stupid mexicans build a giant wall, roflcopter!"

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Impoverished children come with impoverished parents. Add into being illegal, the already present risk of criminal behavior increases. Your argument assumes that the people who chose to come here (the parents) are the ones in prison. You also ignore those involved in smuggling, and gang activity, who are likely to find their way around these protections anyway. The honest workers are the ones who are most easily stopped.

We can't stop illegal immigration completely unless other conditions are in place, and the implementation of such conditions require much more than the u.s. alone is capable of.[/quote]

Of course we can't stop it 100%, but we can certainly drastically reduce it from where it is, which is unbelievably high. And none of them are honest if they are here illegally, since they broke the law to be here in the first place.

Although your argument doesn't make much sense. Are you saying we should let everyone go because we might imprison people who commit the lesser crime of just crossing our borders illegally compared to the others we catch who are smuggling people, drugs, weapons, terrorists? That is not a position I think has any logic to it.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Honestly though, considering various other things that need our attention, immigration isn't high on my list other than to increase legal immigration.[/QUOTE]

This says it all I guess. we have 11+ million illegal aliens and 30% of federal prisoners are illegal, massive crime in areas like Los Angeles due to gangs illegally crossing the border, but hey, no big deal.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']Of course we can't stop it 100%, but we can certainly drastically reduce it from where it is, which is unbelievably high. And none of them are honest if they are here illegally, since they broke the law to be here in the first place.[/quote]

Who's would you respect more, the one who stays in extreme poverty, with severely malnourished kids (and there are areas of mexico like that), simply because they don't want to break an immigration law, or the one who goes to an area where they can make money and help their family live a better life?

Laws are there for the betterment of society. If they run counter to that goal in certain instances, then, morally (not legally), there isn't any obligation to follow them. This isn't a case of a parent becoming a hitman to feed his/her family, the act of being an illegal immigrant isn't harming anyone or infringing on the rights of other individuals.

Although your argument doesn't make much sense. Are you saying we should let everyone go because we might imprison people who commit the lesser crime of just crossing our borders illegally compared to the others we catch who are smuggling people, drugs, weapons, terrorists? That is not a position I think has any logic to it.

I'm saying that your solution will primarily affect the harmless illegal immigrants, the ones you complain about will find ways to get around it. I don't think it's wise to pour all that many into a project that simply going to slow the flow of people looking for jobs, instead of the ones coming here to engage in criminal activity.

This says it all I guess. we have 11+ million illegal aliens and 30% of federal prisoners are illegal, massive crime in areas like Los Angeles due to gangs illegally crossing the border, but hey, no big deal.

No, you jump to conclusions. What percentage of illegal immigrants make up the communities those illegals are in? Is there a significant difference in those communities, among people with similar socioeconomic statuses (or as close as possible), in incarceration rates?

Also, what percent of illegal immigrants were involved in organized crime? The ones smuggling people, drugs etc. are the hardest to stop, and the ones most likely to find their way around barries. Is the majority of the 30% those people?

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Who's would you respect more, the one who stays in extreme poverty, with severely malnourished kids (and there are areas of mexico like that), simply because they don't want to break an immigration law, or the one who goes to an area where they can make money and help their family live a better life?

Laws are there for the betterment of society. If they run counter to that goal in certain instances, then, morally (not legally), there isn't any obligation to follow them. This isn't a case of a parent becoming a hitman to feed his/her family, the act of being an illegal immigrant isn't harming anyone or infringing on the rights of other individuals.[/quote]

I just disagree with what I would call baseless assertions that illegally intruding on our borders "isn't harming anyone." It is. It's harming our country in many ways, from economic to national security.

And I respect people who apply for legal immigration and go through the process set up for it, not those who decide to take the law into their own hands and violate it because it's counter to their own personal immediate gain.

I don't see how our immigration laws are "counter to the betterment of society." Sounds like you're for open borders. Is that so?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']I'm saying that your solution will primarily affect the harmless illegal immigrants, the ones you complain about will find ways to get around it. I don't think it's wise to pour all that many into a project that simply going to slow the flow of people looking for jobs, instead of the ones coming here to engage in criminal activity.

No, you jump to conclusions. What percentage of illegal immigrants make up the communities those illegals are in? Is there a significant difference in those communities, among people with similar socioeconomic statuses (or as close as possible), in incarceration rates?

Also, what percent of illegal immigrants were involved in organized crime? The ones smuggling people, drugs etc. are the hardest to stop, and the ones most likely to find their way around barries. Is the majority of the 30% those people?[/QUOTE]

So again, your solution is not to clamp down on everyone because we might catch more minor criminals along with the major ones. Quite frankly, I think that's stupid. Obviously the biggest benefit is to catch the drug traffickers and human traffickers, but catching other illegals is good as well.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='alonzo']Who's would you respect more, the one who stays in extreme poverty, with severely malnourished kids (and there are areas of mexico like that), simply because they don't want to break an immigration law, or the one who goes to an area where they can make money and help their family live a better life? [/QUOTE]

The irony is that if they were in America and already citizens, these are the very people you consider the disenfranchised poor who live in squalor and should get public assistance to survive. So, a low paying illegal job is good enough for a poor bastard migrant mexican, but not good enough for an american citizen. Nice racist attitude you have there.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']I just disagree with what I would call baseless assertions that illegally intruding on our borders "isn't harming anyone." It is. It's harming our country in many ways, from economic to national security.

And I respect people who apply for legal immigration and go through the process set up for it, not those who decide to take the law into their own hands and violate it because it's counter to their own personal immediate gain.

I don't see how our immigration laws are "counter to the betterment of society." Sounds like you're for open borders. Is that so?[/quote]
[/quote]

Economic harm is not clear cut and can be argued either way. For example, without illegals that agricultural industry would take a massive hit.

But how is it harming our national security? The potential is there, but if we want to stop terrorists from entering we really need to beef up the canadian border. It's much easier for a terrorist to enter the u.s. through canada than it is through mexico, and in the past that's exactly what they've done. Hell, in washington state (and I believe in burlington, vt, or another new england city, as well) there is a place without a guarded border. A park is split between the 2 countries and people can cross on foot, without any checks, with the simple expectation that they return within the day. Of course, there's no way to ensure that they do.

If the goal is national security, we are focusing on the wrong border.

But why do we have laws? In my opinion, laws are there to ensure the betterment of society. Most of us would not look down upon a person for stealing bread, that they cannot afford, for the purpose of feeding their family. An individual crossing illegaly into the u.s. for the purpose of aiding his/her impoverished family isn't causing harm.

Laws and morality are very different things. Actions that are moral may not always be legal. There's a difference between sayings laws should not be enforced and saying someone is not morally obligated to follow them. A father who takes the risks of crossing into the u.s. illegally (and there are risks, and we know some do die in this process) to aid his impoverished family may very well be making a better moral decision than the one who continues to live with his impoverished family, simply because he does not want to break a law.

But, no, I'm not for open borders.

So again, your solution is not to clamp down on everyone because we might catch more minor criminals along with the major ones. Quite frankly, I think that's stupid. Obviously the biggest benefit is to catch the drug traffickers and human traffickers, but catching other illegals is good as well.

No. My point is you haven't explained that illegal immigrants are any more dangerous than similar impoverished populations we already have in the u.s. There are many different things that could use the funding, what makes the situation here more important than the rest? You need to show why this one is important enough that the funding should be directed there than to other areas.

The irony is that if they were in America and already citizens, these are the very people you consider the disenfranchised poor who live in squalor and should get public assistance to survive. So, a low paying illegal job is good enough for a poor bastard migrant mexican, but not good enough for an american citizen. Nice racist attitude you have there.

I'm sorry, I must have missed where I gave my views on how illegal immigrants should be treated once in this country. Also, I'm not aware that I ever defined who should be treated what way based on race/ethnicity.

Also, as I'm sure you know, there are many non hispanic illegal immigrants in this country, most notably about 50,000 illegal irish immigrants in this country. Rather interesting you only refer to mexicans.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Economic harm is not clear cut and can be argued either way. For example, without illegals that agricultural industry would take a massive hit.[/quote]

http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']But how is it harming our national security? The potential is there, but if we want to stop terrorists from entering we really need to beef up the canadian border. It's much easier for a terrorist to enter the u.s. through canada than it is through mexico, and in the past that's exactly what they've done. Hell, in washington state (and I believe in burlington, vt, or another new england city, as well) there is a place without a guarded border. A park is split between the 2 countries and people can cross on foot, without any checks, with the simple expectation that they return within the day. Of course, there's no way to ensure that they do.

If the goal is national security, we are focusing on the wrong border.[/quote]

Are you crazy? There are loads of illegal gangs operating along the Mexican border, smugging everything from people to drugs to weapons. I don't hear about these sorts of problems on the Canadian border, do you? You think 11+ million people entering our country with no background checks or controls on them whatsoever (we don't even know where they are, not to mention exactly how many and who they are) is not a threat to national security?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']But why do we have laws? In my opinion, laws are there to ensure the betterment of society. Most of us would not look down upon a person for stealing bread, that they cannot afford, for the purpose of feeding their family. An individual crossing illegaly into the u.s. for the purpose of aiding his/her impoverished family isn't causing harm.

Laws and morality are very different things. Actions that are moral may not always be legal. There's a difference between sayings laws should not be enforced and saying someone is not morally obligated to follow them. A father who takes the risks of crossing into the u.s. illegally (and there are risks, and we know some do die in this process) to aid his impoverished family may very well be making a better moral decision than the one who continues to live with his impoverished family, simply because he does not want to break a law.

But, no, I'm not for open borders.[/quote]

Glad to hear you're not for open borders.

Breaking the law for economic betterment of yourself is morally wrong. I sympathize with those in bad economic situations, and I believe the solution is to increase legal immigration from the very low level it is at right now.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']No. My point is you haven't explained that illegal immigrants are any more dangerous than similar impoverished populations we already have in the u.s. There are many different things that could use the funding, what makes the situation here more important than the rest? You need to show why this one is important enough that the funding should be directed there than to other areas.[/quote]

So showing that we have a massive criminal problem isn't enough to warrant enforcement, but it has to be compared to others to see if it's "more important"? How would you define that? Surely drug/gang/etc problems along the Mexican border are BIG BIG problems by anyone's definition (strangely maybe not yours). 30% of our prison population (remember, they're overcrowded because of this!) and 95% of unpunished murders in Los Angeles are big problems deserving our attention. You don't think so? What if 95% of unpunished murders in Boston were because they couldn't find the illegal aliens who committed them?

 

[alucard8319]

All the news coverage made me remember about this movie
http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/mf/frame...08568971&f=1808568971&mspid=1808570635&type=t

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html


Seems pretty clear-cut to me.[/quote]

It estimated that illegal immigrants fill a quarter of all agricultural jobs, 17 percent of office and house cleaning positions, 14percent of construction jobs and 12 percent of food preparation posts.

http://www.modbee.com/ag/story/11905431p-12674446c.html

Are you crazy? There are loads of illegal gangs operating along the Mexican border, smugging everything from people to drugs to weapons. I don't hear about these sorts of problems on the Canadian border, do you? You think 11+ million people entering our country with no background checks or controls on them whatsoever (we don't even know where they are, not to mention exactly how many and who they are) is not a threat to national security?

You are speaking of two different things. One, national security. The second thing you are talking about concerns public safety. You seem to be confusing the two.

More national security threats, and more non hispanics, enter through the canadian border. There are many holes in that border as well.

Breaking the law for economic betterment of yourself is morally wrong. I sympathize with those in bad economic situations, and I believe the solution is to increase legal immigration from the very low level it is at right now.

Why is it morally wrong? There's a significant difference between simply trying to economically benefit yourself, and trying to provide food and other necessities to your impoverished family. Why is an illegal immigrant in this situation morally wrong?

So showing that we have a massive criminal problem isn't enough to warrant enforcement, but it has to be compared to others to see if it's "more important"? How would you define that? Surely drug/gang/etc problems along the Mexican border are BIG BIG problems by anyone's definition (strangely maybe not yours). 30% of our prison population (remember, they're overcrowded because of this!) and 95% of unpunished murders in Los Angeles are big problems deserving our attention. You don't think so? What if 95% of unpunished murders in Boston were because they couldn't find the illegal aliens who committed them?

95% of outstanding murder warrants in LA are illegal immigrants. That isn't 95% of unpunished murders. This isn't overly suprising, many illegals do not permanently stay here anyway, and they likely flee if a problem arises. The americans have no place to run to. That doesn't signify that they're dangerous, just that they're less likely to be caught if something does happen.

But you have no demonstrated that illegal immigrants are a massive criminal problem. You have shown that illegals make up a large percentage of the prison population, but refuse to show any data indicating how similar u.s. populations are represented in crime statistics. You haven't shown that they're more dangerous than the american population they live along side of.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']http://www.modbee.com/ag/story/11905431p-12674446c.html[/quote]

Yes, and it's costing the government $11-22 billion a year. Not to mention that many of the jobs illegals take in areas like agriculture would have been mechanized years ago without illegals. Quite frankly, I'm surprised you in such support for these people basically being treated as disposable second-class workers in the fields, since no way are they being paid minimum wage or getting any of the protections that other workers in this country do.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']You are speaking of two different things. One, national security. The second thing you are talking about concerns public safety. You seem to be confusing the two.

More national security threats, and more non hispanics, enter through the canadian border. There are many holes in that border as well.[/quote]

You can lead a horse to water...what can I say, you don't see national security risks as national security risks. And to say more national security threats enter through the Canadian border is ludicrous, espcially when we don't even know who's entering through the southern border.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Why is it morally wrong? There's a significant difference between simply trying to economically benefit yourself, and trying to provide food and other necessities to your impoverished family. Why is an illegal immigrant in this situation morally wrong?[/quote]

It's morally wrong to break the law for money. I'm sure you'll agree in other cases this is true. Why is it different for illegal immigrants?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']95% of outstanding murder warrants in LA are illegal immigrants. That isn't 95% of unpunished murders. This isn't overly suprising, many illegals do not permanently stay here anyway, and they likely flee if a problem arises. The americans have no place to run to. That doesn't signify that they're dangerous, just that they're less likely to be caught if something does happen.[/quote]

Exactly, my friend, exactly. They commit crimes and disappear as they are undocumented, or they escape into Mexico. We all know there are many dangerous gangs operating along the border; just look at the lawlessness in places like Tijuana!

[quote name='alonzomourning23']But you have no demonstrated that illegal immigrants are a massive criminal problem. You have shown that illegals make up a large percentage of the prison population, but refuse to show any data indicating how similar u.s. populations are represented in crime statistics. You haven't shown that they're more dangerous than the american population they live along side of.[/QUOTE]

Illegal immigrants = 11 million people
Population of USA = 300 million people
Illegal population = 3.67%
Illegal prison population = 30%

So...10 times the prevalence in the prison population compared to the regular population. It's because, like I said, there are a lot of dangerous gangs and organized criminal groups operating along the border, which is why it's such a big problem, among other things.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']Yes, and it's costing the government $11-22 billion a year. Not to mention that many of the jobs illegals take in areas like agriculture would have been mechanized years ago without illegals. Quite frankly, I'm surprised you in such support for these people basically being treated as disposable second-class workers in the fields, since no way are they being paid minimum wage or getting any of the protections that other workers in this country do.[/quote]

But the health of the economy is not measured in that.

I seriously doubt many agricultural jobs, like picking raspberries and such, would be mechanized. But I'm not sure what agricultural jobs they do so I can't say much on that.

But, they can improve their families life by being here. I have no problem with the individuals, and it isn't hypocritical to not be outraged that the work they do here provides a better life than the work they did, or work they couldn't find, in mexico, argentina etc. Focusing purely on them, what good is it to send them to work (or not find work) legally int heir own country when their families situation would worsen?

You can lead a horse to water...what can I say, you don't see national security risks as national security risks. And to say more national security threats enter through the Canadian border is ludicrous, espcially when we don't even know who's entering through the southern border.

You are confusing criminal gangs, a threat to public safety, with national security risks.

But the canadian border is much easier to cross, both through actual port of entries and through unguarded territory. And terrorists, being primarily of no hispanic origin, don't blend in nearly as well when coming through mexico.

It's morally wrong to break the law for money. I'm sure you'll agree in other cases this is true. Why is it different for illegal immigrants?

It's morally wrong to steal bread because I thought it would be tasty and didn't want to pay. But is it morally wrong to steal it because I'm hungry and can't afford it?

The law isn't everything. If a mother or father heads and impoverished family, or even worse has malnourished kids, what moral reason is there for them not to illegaly enter another country that overrides the aid they can provide to their family?

Exactly, my friend, exactly. They commit crimes and disappear as they are undocumented, or they escape into Mexico. We all know there are many dangerous gangs operating along the border; just look at the lawlessness in places like Tijuana!

Escaping from being punished and committing more crimes is different. You seem to be using this to support the idea that they're dangerous, but all it does is show they're harder to punish than legal residents.

Illegal immigrants = 11 million people
Population of USA = 300 million people
Illegal population = 3.67%
Illegal prison population = 30%

So...10 times the prevalence in the prison population compared to the regular population. It's because, like I said, there are a lot of dangerous gangs and organized criminal groups operating along the border, which is why it's such a big problem, among other things.

Wow, that's a horrible comparison. I assume you believe people who live in kennebunkport, maine are statistically as likely to be imprisoned as those living in gary, indiana? Or Chicago? LA? I assume you think that all demographic groups, neighbordhoods etc. each produce the same amount of prisoners per capita?

Show me where illegals living in a place are more prone to violence or criminal activity (not regarding immigration violations) than populations sharing a similar socioeconomic status in those same areas.

 

[Sarang01]

[quote name='bmulligan']Well, we could jail all the illegals and make them build the fence. Then make them stand on the mexican side before finishing the last partition and the barbed wire.[/QUOTE]

Agreed and any people helping immigrants get in should be cracked heavily on, especially the businesses providing fradulent identification to have them work for them.
And PAD more people would work those jobs if they paid what they should.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']You are confusing criminal gangs, a threat to public safety, with national security risks.

But the canadian border is much easier to cross, both through actual port of entries and through unguarded territory. And terrorists, being primarily of no hispanic origin, don't blend in nearly as well when coming through mexico. [/quote]

They don't need to blend in. There are plenty of different nationalities coming across the southern border.

Included in this estimate are approximately 78,000 illegal aliens from countries who are of special concern in the war on terror.

http://www.cis.org/topics/illegalimmigration.html


[quote name='alonzomourning23']It's morally wrong to steal bread because I thought it would be tasty and didn't want to pay. But is it morally wrong to steal it because I'm hungry and can't afford it?

The law isn't everything. If a mother or father heads and impoverished family, or even worse has malnourished kids, what moral reason is there for them not to illegaly enter another country that overrides the aid they can provide to their family?[/quote]

No no no, you don't understand. These people have thousands of dollars to pay traffickers and gangs to help them across the border. The really poor people can't even get to the border; they're stuck in slums outside Mexico City or in other countries.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Escaping from being punished and committing more crimes is different. You seem to be using this to support the idea that they're dangerous, but all it does is show they're harder to punish than legal residents.[/quote]

So it's okay that we have a group of people who can violate the law here and not get caught, even when it comes to crimes like homocide? No big deal?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Wow, that's a horrible comparison. I assume you believe people who live in kennebunkport, maine are statistically as likely to be imprisoned as those living in gary, indiana? Or Chicago? LA? I assume you think that all demographic groups, neighbordhoods etc. each produce the same amount of prisoners per capita?

Show me where illegals living in a place are more prone to violence or criminal activity (not regarding immigration violations) than populations sharing a similar socioeconomic status in those same areas.[/QUOTE]

It's a good comparison. Illegal immigrants are more likely than Americans to be involved in the drug trade, human trafficking or be in dangerous gangs like MS-13 who are thought by many to have terrorist connections:

MS-13 and other illegal immigrant gangs are bringing in the illegals, drugs, heavy weapons, and possibly terrorists. The biggest threat from their members is contained in the multiple intelligence reports provided to Congress indicating that Al-Qaeda and MS-13 are now working together to smuggle terrorist operatives and materials into the US.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/9802

But gangs suspected of smuggling in weapons and terrorists aren't a national security threat, you say?

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']They don't need to blend in. There are plenty of different nationalities coming across the southern border.


http://www.cis.org/topics/illegalimmigration.html [/quote]

I stated that the canadian border is of greater risk to national security, and you show me statistics on illegals from "countries who are of concern", but fail to show me which border they came in from. Don't you think there's a problem with your argument that needs to be addressed?

No no no, you don't understand. These people have thousands of dollars to pay traffickers and gangs to help them across the border. The really poor people can't even get to the border; they're stuck in slums outside Mexico City or in other countries.

Many of which go to great lengths to accumulate that money, or beg richer, even american, relatives to support them. Yes, the poorest of the poor are more likely to be unable to afford it, and they're the ones more likely to cross without paying anything. Many of those who did have some money (particularly non mexicans) are robbed, extorted etc. of what little they brought with them before they actually reach the u.s. or the border.

And, besides, many of the traffickers go directly through the ports of entry. And, while not an argument against tracking down just a side effect, the more you crack down the more people are going to look towards those experienced in getting into the u.s. You will increase their business.

So it's okay that we have a group of people who can violate the law here and not get caught, even when it comes to crimes like homocide? No big deal?

This is so unlike you. You are actually comparing crossing into a country illegal with homicide? You normally are rational. What reason is there that would make you think illegal immigration, a crime where no one is directly harmed or, at best, the only one at risk is the person who wants to enter the u.s., is comparable to forcible taking someones life? One crime is essentially victimless (especially on the individual level) and one isn't.

Again, is it wrong to steal bread to feed your family if you can't afford to buy it? That should be an easy question, but I have to wonder after this response.

It's a good comparison. Illegal immigrants are more likely than Americans to be involved in the drug trade, human trafficking or be in dangerous gangs like MS-13 who are thought by many to have terrorist connections:


http://www.americandaily.com/article/9802

But gangs suspected of smuggling in weapons and terrorists aren't a national security threat, you say?

In the past, terrorists have made more attempts, and had more success that we know of, entering through canada.

But it isn't a good comparison. You are taking the entire population of the u.s., instead of breaking it down. You must compare populations with similar populations, comparing illegals living in L.A. tells you nothing when the opposite group has significant amounts of people living in rural and other areas that have very low crime rates. Illegals tend not to live in these areas.

To get a true picture of illegals you need to compare them to similar socioeconomic groups, any other way of studying their crime rate is flawed.

 

[Kayden]

[quote name='Alonzo']
If the goal is national security, we are focusing on the wrong border.[/quote]
Because we all know the true source of the danger to our country's security is Canadians. What with their funny speech and meny varieties of beer... they'll turn us all into alcoholics with speech impediments!


I fail to see where all the confusion comes into play. "We aren't criminals"? Well if you're an ILLEGAL immigrant, guess what; you are a criminal! Yay for common-ing-sense. Very black and white. You're either here legally and NOT a criminal, or you're here ILLEGALLY and are a criminal.

This should have dick to do with racism. Immigration laws weren't set up because white people hate latinos. However, they aren't being enforced because the majority of people that don't follow the laws are 'Mexican' and any attempt to remove them is seen as discrimination or harassment.

I really don't care if this comes off as a 'typical middle class white opinion'. Guess what? I'm a typical white, middle class American. I went to college, I have a job, I pay bills. I didn't master in poli-sci and minor in literature. I'm not here to shove my "I'm an 'enlightened' pretentous ass that knows more than you because I went to an ivy league school" opinion upon anyone and insist that everyone is ignorant because the system is unfair to our hyspanic brethern.

My tabs on my car recently expired and I wasn't notified of the renewal date; I was last time, but not this time. Therefore, I got a ticket in the middle of downtown in the middle of the night. Later I got another ticket ON MY WAY to get the tabs. I tried to tell the officer I was on my way to take care of the problem, but "the rules are the rules". Was it a dick move on his part? Yea. Was I pissed that I had $300 in tickets due to the fact that the state decided to stop sending renewal notifications? Hell yes! Was it still the law that I had to pay them? Yes.

Whats my point of the story? If you don't get it, you're retarded, but I'll tell you anyways. Whether or not we like the law, its still the ing law and we have to follow it.

'But they're showing that they as people dont like the law *blah blah blah* Goint to change *yadda yadda* listen to the people'

Is it possible for us to repeal existing immigration and prevent new legislation? Yes. However, why should we? Immigrants from just about every other country can follow these proceedures with no problems. Why should we not enforce them just because Mexicans... I'm sorry, "Hispanics", don't like them? The process isn't that hard. Doesn't this just prove they're lazy? (Joke... but not)

Another side story: My girlfriend is a manager for the restaurants at the MPLS airport. The majority of the people (90%+) that work there are from Somolia/Ethiopia/Poor African Country and aproximately 5% of them know passible English. These people can't construct a coherent sentence in English, yet they have obtained a legal status in the country AND FEDERAL clearance to work in an airport. [Side-side note, they actually tried to make GG learn their language. They said it only made sense since the majority already spoke it. These people have lived here about 5 years on the average... Reprehensible.]


Its midnight and I've forgotten my point. Deconstruct my post and make all the 'enlightened' quips you care to about how primitive my view is and how I'm culturally incensitive. Rest assured I really don't give a damn about what anyone supporting border jumps thinks. I want to shoot anyone that comes here illegally and then says they arent a criminal. News flash- you are.

Additionally, I'd like to know why hispanics go apeshit on this subject.
Person: I think illegals should be shipped back to their country.
'Hispanic American' Citizen: Why do have to be so racist? We aren't criminals!
Person: Are you an illegal alien?
HAC: Well... no...
Person: The what the hell makes you think I'm talking about you?

Why do naturalized hispanics get offended when people talk about taking action against illegal immigrants. Its not like "deport illegals" is code for "hispanics suck"


***
I know this sounded really condecending all assholish, but I really don't care. Why do white people always have to be the problem? Why do I have to feel guilty about being born a white American male? I don't get handouts, I can't have 12 kids and live on wellfare, I can't get a job solely because I'm a minority and I cant sue for losing a job because I have a dark skin color. But still I'm the bad guy for wanting others to follow the law and/or use a bit of common sense. I'd like to go to Japan. However I don't speak Japanese and I'm really too lazy to learn. So I wont be living there anytime soon. Additionally, I sure as hell wouldn't move to Japan, refuse to conform and then demand social services. Americans are seen as arogant bastards because they expect everyone to cater to them when they travel. However, when we refuse to cater the needs of every minority were the bad guys yet again, even when said minority is here illegally.


I'm tired and now I'm pissed. This country sucks. You're free to say anything you want... as long as it isn't going to offend someone or make them otherwise uncomfortable. The needs of the minority superceed the needs of the majority.

I say it all. Wipe the slate clean. I think its pretty clear a bipartisan democracy doesn't work... but then neither does communism... or a totalitarian dictatorship... Maybe the problem isn't that governments cant cater to the people, but that people are just too damn arogant, whiny, self-absorbed, hateful, resentful, greedy, stupid, lazy or any number of undesireable terms to deserve to still be on this planet.

now if you'll excuse me, I have to go put on mascara and read poetry in the dark with the rest of my coven.

 

[alonzomourning23]

Because we all know the true source of the danger to our country's security is Canadians. What with their funny speech and meny varieties of beer... they'll turn us all into alcoholics with speech impediments!

Canada is home to the most multicultural city in the world, Toronto. Vancouver is close behind. Canada isn't the rural backwater you seem to be suggesting.

I fail to see where all the confusion comes into play. "We aren't criminals"? Well if you're an ILLEGAL immigrant, guess what; you are a criminal! Yay for common-ing-sense. Very black and white. You're either here legally and NOT a criminal, or you're here ILLEGALLY and are a criminal.

If you want to determine how severe a crime is you don't start with that. You don't say "we know that those violating a certain law are dangerous to this country because they violate said law" that doesn't tell you much. I don't think anyone argue that simply having the status "illegal immigrant" is the issue, it's what that entails. The question here is what happens when we have people violating that law, so you have to look at what else they do.

Immigrants from just about every other country can follow these proceedures with no problems. Why should we not enforce them just because Mexicans...

Maybe someday I can tell you about all the illegal immigration from north africa, eastern europe and asia trying to get into the e.u., illegal immigrants in china and so on. If there is a large economic disparity between nations then people will often flee to those areas in numbers greater than legal immigration allows. Different regions simply have illegals from different countries.

Rest assured I really don't give a damn about what anyone supporting border jumps thinks.

It would be interesting if you could find where I said I supported them. I said that I don't support open borders, but my opinion on the issue of illegal immigration is essentially one of indifference.

[Side-side note, they actually tried to make GG learn their language. They said it only made sense since the majority already spoke it. These people have lived here about 5 years on the average... Reprehensible.]

I don't know what GG is, but trying to teach an adult a foreign language is very difficult. Adult brains aren't really equipped to learn language, and it gets harder the older you are. Those who do learn it often will have very heavy accents and are unlikely to every get a good grasp on syntax.

Whats my point of the story? If you don't get it, you're retarded, but I'll tell you anyways. Whether or not we like the law, its still the ing law and we have to follow it

So legal law is the same as moral law? All violations of legal laws are by definition immoral? And all violations are morally the same regardless of the reason?

Side-side note, they actually tried to make GG learn their language. They said it only made sense since the majority already spoke it. These people have lived here about 5 years on the average... Reprehensible.]

Teaching adults language is very difficult, and most will never really pick up the syntax and will have very strong accents. The older you are the harder it is.

I'm tired and now I'm pissed. This country sucks. You're free to say anything you want... as long as it isn't going to offend someone or make them otherwise uncomfortable. The needs of the minority superceed the needs of the majority.

If you offend someone then they have the right to offend you, don't they? Just because you have the right to say something, doesn't mean you can't be condemned for it. Last I checked even nazi's and the klan can hold public rallies. Honestly, I was at an anti-war protest one time and 2 skinheads showed up. They ended up recieving personal protection from 6 police men the whole time they were there.

Though, after reading your post, I get the feeling that I'm hispanic. That and you think I'm a pompous ass.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']I stated that the canadian border is of greater risk to national security, and you show me statistics on illegals from "countries who are of concern", but fail to show me which border they came in from. Don't you think there's a problem with your argument that needs to be addressed?[/quote]

I think your argument defies logic, since we have documented statistics of people from countries often associated with terrorism coming across the southern border. Search for statistics on "OTM" illegal immigrants ("other than Mexican").

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Many of which go to great lengths to accumulate that money, or beg richer, even american, relatives to support them. Yes, the poorest of the poor are more likely to be unable to afford it, and they're the ones more likely to cross without paying anything. Many of those who did have some money (particularly non mexicans) are robbed, extorted etc. of what little they brought with them before they actually reach the u.s. or the border.[/quote]

So instead of paying the fee and waiting in line since they can raise the money, it's morally justifiable to you if they just simply screw the law and break into our country illegally? Again, the poorest of the poor cannot make it up to the border even from central or southern Mexico, much less other Central American countries.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']And, besides, many of the traffickers go directly through the ports of entry. And, while not an argument against tracking down just a side effect, the more you crack down the more people are going to look towards those experienced in getting into the u.s. You will increase their business.[/quote]

What about cracking down on ALL illegal entry? We shouldn't even try because people will still try to enter illegally? I guess we shouldn't have laws against stealing because people still steal; in fact, it just makes it so the professional criminals are the only ones successful!

[quote name='alonzomourning23']This is so unlike you. You are actually comparing crossing into a country illegal with homicide? You normally are rational. What reason is there that would make you think illegal immigration, a crime where no one is directly harmed or, at best, the only one at risk is the person who wants to enter the u.s., is comparable to forcible taking someones life? One crime is essentially victimless (especially on the individual level) and one isn't.[/quote]

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I was discussing how 95% of outstanding warrants for homocide in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants, and how them being in a sense outside the law made it harder to find and prosecute these people, something which I thought you agreed with. Therefore, that is just another reason we should stop illegal immigration, because it leads to problems like that. I never made an argument that illegal immigration was the same as homocide.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Again, is it wrong to steal bread to feed your family if you can't afford to buy it? That should be an easy question, but I have to wonder after this response.[/quote]

This isn't at issue here. Quite frankly, as I said before, starving people are not the ones crossing the border. Poor is not the same as starving.

As a side note, I'm really proud of the fact that no one starves in this country unless they do it to themselves. Our generosity as a nation never ceases to amaze me.

As another side note, Mexico does not even accept any food aid, so it's hard to believe they have major food shortages as you suggest.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...df+mexico+"food+aid"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

[quote name='alonzomourning23']In the past, terrorists have made more attempts, and had more success that we know of, entering through canada.[/quote]

"That we know of" is the operative phrase, isn't it? And there just isn't the massive illegal immigration through our Canada border as there is with the Mexican one. After all, most of the terrorists you are talking about entered legally, so that is not an issue with illegal immigration, but one of visa controls.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']But it isn't a good comparison. You are taking the entire population of the u.s., instead of breaking it down. You must compare populations with similar populations, comparing illegals living in L.A. tells you nothing when the opposite group has significant amounts of people living in rural and other areas that have very low crime rates. Illegals tend not to live in these areas.

To get a true picture of illegals you need to compare them to similar socioeconomic groups, any other way of studying their crime rate is flawed.[/QUOTE]

Of course it's a good comparison. You want to selectively compare them with the portions of our society that are most prone to crime (poor people) instead of our society as a whole. Why? They are entering our society as a whole, not jjust shut in some ghetto.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='elprincipe']Of course it's a good comparison. You want to selectively compare them with the portions of our society that are most prone to crime (poor people) instead of our society as a whole. Why? They are entering our society as a whole, not jjust shut in some ghetto.[/QUOTE]

That's baloney. Poor people are not more prone to being criminals, criminals are more prone to being poor. There's a huge difference between those two statements.

 

[Kayden]

[quote name='bmulligan']That's baloney. Poor people are not more prone to being criminals, criminals are more prone to being poor. There's a huge difference between those two statements.[/quote]

They're poor/have nothing because they take things from others? They don't take things from others because they have nothing?

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Kayden']They're poor/have nothing because they take things from others? They don't take things from others because they have nothing?[/QUOTE]

Being "poor" by financial definition, doesn't mean you are going to become a petty criminal because of some etherial force that affects poor people. It's a conscious choice to go out and rob people instead of getting a job and working for your own subsistence.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='bmulligan']Being "poor" by financial definition, doesn't mean you are going to become a petty criminal because of some etherial force that affects poor people. It's a conscious choice to go out and rob people instead of getting a job and working for your own subsistence.[/QUOTE]

I don't think being poor makes you a criminal, but it does produce more of a temptation to be a criminal. Since some people are weak-minded and succumb to temptation even when they know they're doing something wrong/harmful (see: drugs, smoking), it is more likely that someone who is poor is going to be tempted to steal.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='elprincipe']I think your argument defies logic, since we have documented statistics of people from countries often associated with terrorism coming across the southern border. Search for statistics on "OTM" illegal immigrants ("other than Mexican").[/quote]

And non hispanic illegals don't go through the canadian border?

So instead of paying the fee and waiting in line since they can raise the money, it's morally justifiable to you if they just simply screw the law and break into our country illegally? Again, the poorest of the poor cannot make it up to the border even from central or southern Mexico, much less other Central American countries.

This assumes that anyone can become legal if they choose.

And you still haven't addressed the issue as to whether illegal activity is always immoral.

And many poor do have family in other areas supporting them.

What about cracking down on ALL illegal entry? We shouldn't even try because people will still try to enter illegally? I guess we shouldn't have laws against stealing because people still steal; in fact, it just makes it so the professional criminals are the only ones successful!

Unlike stealing, my point is that the cost of such a massive crackdown, and the likelihood that it would do much more to stop harmless illegals than dangerous ones, would mean it's not worth the cost.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I was discussing how 95% of outstanding warrants for homocide in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants, and how them being in a sense outside the law made it harder to find and prosecute these people, something which I thought you agreed with. Therefore, that is just another reason we should stop illegal immigration, because it leads to problems like that. I never made an argument that illegal immigration was the same as homocide.

I'm more concerned about preventing and stopping crime. Prosecuting it is secondary unless it pertains to the preventing it. You statistic only reflected prosecution rates.

This isn't at issue here. Quite frankly, as I said before, starving people are not the ones crossing the border. Poor is not the same as starving.

As a side note, I'm really proud of the fact that no one starves in this country unless they do it to themselves. Our generosity as a nation never ceases to amaze me.

As another side note, Mexico does not even accept any food aid, so it's hard to believe they have major food shortages as you suggest.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:kq4PNe9h3swJ:earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_library/country_profiles/agr_cou_484.pdf+mexico+%22food+aid%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

Well, the u.s. does have people starve because they are denied access to proper mental health treatment. But, as for mexico:

Approximately 40 percent of those born in Oaxaca live and work in other parts of Mexico, the United States, and Canada, leaving a disproportionate number of women and children in rural villages...

malnutrition still affects one of every four children under five years of age in urban areas and two of every five children under five in rural areas. As a consequence, one in five children between the ages of five and 11 suffers from anemia, as does one in every four pregnant women...

The same study shows that, in Oaxaca, 45.5 percent of children under five in rural populations of between 500 and 2500 inhabitants are of normal nutritional status (based on weight for their age), 31.3 percent are mildly malnourished, 18.7 percent are moderately malnourished, and 4.6 percent are severely malnourished. By comparison, in Sonora (a state in northern Mexico) these figures are 87 percent, 8.6 percent, 4.2 percent, and 0.2 percent, respectively.

Southern Mexico also has one of the highest rates, worldwide, of neural tube birth defects; these are severe defects of the face, brain, and spinal column, leading to high rates of miscarriage and infant death. The risks of developing these defects are reduced up to 75 percent if the mother consumes sufficient amounts of folic acid or folate before and during pregnancy.

http://www.puentealasaludcomunitaria.org/english/7.htm

Besides, this doesn't even address the non mexican illegals, which (I believe) are about 45%.

"That we know of" is the operative phrase, isn't it? And there just isn't the massive illegal immigration through our Canada border as there is with the Mexican one. After all, most of the terrorists you are talking about entered legally, so that is not an issue with illegal immigration, but one of visa controls.

How does this show the mexican border is more of a threat than the canadian one? How does it show that terrorists will enter this country illegaly?

Of course it's a good comparison. You want to selectively compare them with the portions of our society that are most prone to crime (poor people) instead of our society as a whole. Why? They are entering our society as a whole, not jjust shut in some ghetto.

So illegals normally come into the u.s., move into upscale suburbs, and send their kids off to private school? Of course not. They tend to occupy the same socioeconomic status as the poorest of americans, and they need to be judged on those terms.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']And non hispanic illegals don't go through the canadian border?[/quote]

Of course some do. But again, you're fooling yourself if you think there is a wave of illegal immigration coming from Canada 1/100th of the size of that coming through Mexico. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']This assumes that anyone can become legal if they choose.

And you still haven't addressed the issue as to whether illegal activity is always immoral.

And many poor do have family in other areas supporting them.[/quote]

Yes, they would have to wait in line like everyone else instead of trying to cut in line like illegals do.

Illegal activity isn't always immoral. Sorry if I was not clear. Obviously if you are starving and nobody will give you any food and you can't earn the food stealing a loaf of bread would be acceptable, but clearly this is an extreme example that is unheard of in the United States. So for all intents and purposes that argument is moot. You could make a good argument that blacks not leaving restaurants that were "white only" again may have been illegal but certainly not immoral.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Unlike stealing, my point is that the cost of such a massive crackdown, and the likelihood that it would do much more to stop harmless illegals than dangerous ones, would mean it's not worth the cost.[/quote]

Well, I guess we just disagree. I think I've laid out why I think it's a big problem, and I would also point out I think more people view it as a big problem in this country than don't.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']I'm more concerned about preventing and stopping crime. Prosecuting it is secondary unless it pertains to the preventing it. You statistic only reflected prosecution rates.[/quote]

How do you prevent crime if you don't stop the criminals? You don't think prosecuting murderers helps to prevent murder? Very strange (and factually incorrect) opinion.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']How does this show the mexican border is more of a threat than the canadian one? How does it show that terrorists will enter this country illegaly?[/quote]

Simple numbers. How many more illegals are coming through Mexico as opposed to Canada? Everyone knows it's hundreds of times more, and thus it's hundreds of times more likely there will be a threat coming in that way.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']So illegals normally come into the u.s., move into upscale suburbs, and send their kids off to private school? Of course not. They tend to occupy the same socioeconomic status as the poorest of americans, and they need to be judged on those terms.[/QUOTE]

I don't think so. You're attempting to skew the statistics in favor of your view by selective comparison. No doubt you'll accuse me of the same, but I think the facts bear me out.