University of Florida Eliminates Computer Science Department, Increases Athletic Budg

[quote name='GBAstar']I understand you don't like athletes. That is fine.[/QUOTE]

Ahahah

All your points are so full of shit. I don't have any problem with athletes, just like I have no idea if you have a problem with sciences or the liberal arts.

The rest of your post is anecdotal bullshit. Come back with some real numbers like Dmaul or GTFO
 
[quote name='camoor']Ahahah

All your points are so full of shit. I don't have any problem with athletes, just like I have no idea if you have a problem with sciences or the liberal arts.

The rest of your post is anecdotal bullshit. Come back with some real numbers like Dmaul or GTFO[/QUOTE]


Yeah i have a degree in biomolecular science so I must have a problem with the sciences....
 
[quote name='camoor']Read the thread.

We know there are a choice few schools that make money on football - but the vast majority are losers. Major losers.[/QUOTE]

I did read the thread. What I failed to see in your multitude of explanations is the fact that the UF Athletic Dept is different from many other Universities. Yes, it makes money (I saw you pointed that out), but it does not take funds from tax payers (I also saw you had a problem with that).

As an alumnus of UF, I actually have a vested interest in this and do care. Maybe you should have read what I said regarding the differences in the UAA and many other athletic departments before you demanding I read the thread.
 
I'll post the entire article and highlight the important parts. Obviously clicking on a link is too tough for you:

Sports save schools: Colleges are adding sports to boost revenue and increase enrollment

By John Raby, AP
Saturday, September 12, 2009

College short of cash? Just add lacrosse
FOREST GROVE, Ore. — Money killed Pacific University’s football program and money is bringing it back.

Seventeen years ago, the Boxers were losing, McCready Field was falling apart and football was draining the budget at the small liberal arts school west of Portland. Now Pacific is planning for a return next season to boost enrollment — and revenue.
Budget cuts in higher education make intuitive sense in a nation still suffering from almost two years of bad economic news.
Yet dozens of schools across the country are making the same decision Pacific did — to add sports rather than reduce them — and have done so for years, The Associated Press learned by reaching out to all 95 of the multisport conferences in the NCAA’s Divisions I, II and III.
Overall, the AP found those colleges plan to add a total of 174 new teams and drop 59 over the next two years.
The reasons aren’t always economic — complying with rules that demand gender equality in sports and that require Division III schools to carry a minimum of 12 sports starting in 2010 also play a role. However, the economy keeps popping up as an important and often critical reason for the expansion, particularly in Divisions II and III, where athletes often don’t receive scholarships.
Adams State in Alamosa, Colo., will add men’s golf, men’s soccer, women’s lacrosse and swimming teams for both sexes. It’s one of 11 Division II schools adding sports for economic reasons, the AP found.
Lake Erie College, east of Cleveland, is bringing on men’s and women’s lacrosse and men’s and women’s tennis this year, its first in Division II.
Georgia’s Columbus State is adding coed rifle, women’s golf, and men’s and women’s track in 2009-10, the largest single-year expansion in the Division II school’s history.
“There is a perception out there from Division I that adding sports just consumes all the money,” said Adams State athletic director Larry Mortensen. “But at our level it’s just the opposite — generating sports adds revenue. It generates enrollment.”
Lake Erie’s student-athlete population is expected to triple, boosting overall enrollment at the 1,200-student college and forcing the school to bolster its curriculum, athletic director Griz Zimmerman said.
For sport-loving students and their parents, the trend means more opportunities and college choices.
Freshman Meredith Howe had never heard of Lake Erie before she was contacted by the women’s lacrosse coach prior to her senior year at Jamesville-Dewitt High School near Syracuse, N.Y. Howe had looked at several colleges and none stuck out. She knew she didn’t want to attend a Division I school.
It turns out Lake Erie was the right fit.
“It was my favorite. It’s tiny but it’s quaint. It was a sweet deal,” Howe said. “I was kind of hoping to pick a school for the sport. I picked Lake Erie because since the program’s new, I would still have a life. Lacrosse wouldn’t be 24-7 for me.”
West Virginia Wesleyan will field a Division II women’s lacrosse team in spring 2011 that athletic director Ken Tyler estimates could generate up to $159,000 in its inaugural year for the 1,200-student college.
“That’s significant for a small private liberal arts school like us,” Tyler said.
Wesleyan plans to bring in 20 new athletes for the first season. Tuition and room and board for one year at the school is about $30,000.
The school says it will wind up in the black even after it divides scholarships worth a total of $150,000 among the athletes. The costs also include the team’s $27,000 budget and the $30,000 coach’s salary.
NCAA records show the number of college athletic teams has been increasing for years, and that while the recession scaled back some schools’ plans, it hasn’t stopped them from expanding.
Starting in 2010, Division III schools with enrollments of 1,000 or more must sponsor a minimum of 12 sports, up from 10 — six each for gender. A tenet of Division III membership is having a variety of athletic participation opportunities and “the legislation was adopted to really emphasize the importance of that philosophy,” said Dan Dutcher, the NCAA’s vice president for Division III.
Although the average Division III school has 16.5 varsity teams, as many as 35 colleges would have to add sports in order to meet the new minimum, Dutcher said. Most of the 35 have submitted plans showing “they’re well on the road to preparing for that increase.”
Pat Coleman, editor and publisher of the D3sports.com network based in Minneapolis, said just five Division III schools have dropped football since 1997, while an AP count found 24 Division III colleges that have either added it in the past decade or plan to soon.
“A school that starts football tends to bring out between 80 and 120 freshman for the first year. You have to look at the bottom line, in Division III, everybody’s paying tuition, they’re getting whatever they’re getting in financial aid, but the school isn’t giving scholarships,” Coleman said. “So that money goes to the bottom line.
“A lot of kids who play that first year don’t play all four years. Usually that graduating class that comes in at 120 ends up at about 20-25. But a lot of the kids stay at the school.”
LaGrange College in Georgia shows how the plan works.
The school decided to introduce football in 2006 to increase male enrollment. Although they were winless in their first two seasons, the Panthers finished 9-2 last season and were among the 32 teams that went to the division playoffs.
Along the way, they’ve brought in about 100 students each year, athletic director Phil Williamson said.
Offensive lineman Aaron Hill was even elected student body president last year. Hill originally intended to attend the U.S. Military Academy before a recruiting visit to LaGrange changed his mind.
“I’m a 5-11 offensive lineman. There’s not a big demand for me at places that give scholarships,” said Hill, a senior. “It was either go to a private school or don’t play at all.
“I wouldn’t have come to this school if not for football. It was exciting to think that we could build a tradition. We came in not knowing anything, crossing our fingers and hoping for the best.”
Back at Pacific, finances are a large part of the picture. Pledges are being sought from alumni, so that the school won’t need to tap its institutional budget for the estimated $1.5 million in startup costs. After that, the school hopes to eventually net about $500,000 a year from football.
The school hopes to attract as many as 90 young men to its student body of just over 3,000 by adding football in 2010.
“For us, it is going to be a way to avoid gloom and doom, to be perfectly honest, because we are a tuition-driven and enrollment-driven institution,” said Ken Schumann, athletic director at the Division III school. “So it’s going to be a big shot in the arm for us.”
When football was dropped, the school was competing in a conference with much bigger schools, which meant losing seasons and low interest. Next year, the Boxers will play against similar-sized colleges in the Northwest Conference.
Not everyone connected to the school is supportive, however. Rebecca Weaver, a 1998 graduate, says she doesn’t believe the sport is a good fit for the school, economically or philosophically.
“I guess the question is, do you want students to pick a college based on whether they have a football program?” she said.
But Jeff Grundon, who was a wide receiver for the Boxers and vividly recalls when the sport was dropped in 1992 — he was an assistant coach — believes that football will enhance the overall university experience.
“I’m excited for the school. I’m excited for the alumni,” said Grundon, who stayed at Pacific and works in the admissions office. “And I’m excited myself — just to go to the games, whenever that takes place, I’ll be right there.”
“It’s funny,” he added, “how things kind of repeat every so often.”
John Raby reported from Charleston, W.Va
 
[quote name='ufskenney']Maybe you should have read what I said regarding the differences in the UAA and many other athletic departments before you demanding I read the thread.[/QUOTE]

Uh oh Hulk angry.

I have no problem with UF, enjoy your football.
 
It's disguting because anyone familar with college athletics knows that there are many different "slush" funds that go by different names that have millions of dollars in them. This money is gained from donors, endorsements, facility rental fees, etc. that do NOT count as income for the athletic department but that money would NOT be there if it wasn't for the athletic department.
 
Article sources:
Adams State athletic director Larry Mortensen
sport-loving students and their parents
Pat Coleman, editor and publisher of the D3sports.com network based in Minneapolis
Offensive lineman Aaron Hill
Ken Schumann, athletic director at the Division III school
Jeff Grundon, who was a wide receiver for the Boxers

Wow what a fair-and-balanced article.

Until you can quote detached bean-counters, government subsidy watchdog groups, or even just someone who can read a simple balance sheet, don't bother embarrassing yourself any more. If I had wanted this drivel I could have just talked to the fratboy superfan with the beercan helmet.
 
Numbers are hard to find for smaller schools, but most probably do make money on their atheletic departments because they aren't spending tons like the big schools on absurd coaches salaries, top notch facilities, traveling to conference foes far away (the small conferences tend to be regional) etc., while helping increase enrollments as a lot of kids would rather go to a small school with some sports (to play themselves, or to watch) vs. some liberal arts school with no sports. It's not going to lure many from the big state schools, but a decent sports program helps them recruit students relative to other small schools.

But those numbers don't tend to get released as publicly as the D1 numbers so it's harder to get real evidence unfortunately. I'm sure it's out there, but one would have to dig for the data themselves as it's not going to hit the national media like the D1 schools.


Personally, I just find it all a case of misplaced priorities. Not just with the state spending for the schools getting subsidized, but also the private donations. It's very troubling to me that so many people would rather donate to their alma mater's athletic department than to the academics.

I mean I'm a huge fan of my alma mater's football and basketball teams, but I'd never donate a cent to them. There are far too many important causes out there to be donating money to college sports.

But hey, just another example of everything that's wrong with this country and why we're so quickly falling behind other nations in important areas like education and the sciences.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Numbers are hard to find for smaller schools, but most probably do make money on their atheletic departments because they aren't spending tons like the big schools on absurd coaches salaries, top notch facilities, traveling to conference foes far away (the small conferences tend to be regional) etc., while helping increase enrollments as a lot of kids would rather go to a small school with some sports (to play themselves, or to watch) vs. some liberal arts school with no sports. It's not going to lure many from the big state schools, but a decent sports program helps them recruit students relative to other small schools.

But those numbers don't tend to get released as publicly as the D1 numbers so it's harder to get real evidence unfortunately. I'm sure it's out there, but one would have to dig for the data themselves as it's not going to hit the national media like the D1 schools.


Personally, I just find it all a case of misplaced priorities. Not just with the state spending for the schools getting subsidized, but also the private donations. It's very troubling to me that so many people would rather donate to their alma mater's athletic department than to the academics.

I mean I'm a huge fan of my alma mater's football and basketball teams, but I'd never donate a cent to them. There are far to many important causes out there to be donating money to college sports.

But hey, just another example of everything that's wrong with this country and why we're so quickly falling behind other nations in important areas like education and the sciences.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I would be happy if they just fixed the D1 program. Don't know why we're talking about the smaller schools except that GBA keeps bringing it up and it's fun to watch him lose his shit.

But I think the bigger point is what I agree with most. I found it fitting that U of F was getting chastised for their short-sightedness by a professor in India. Whether or not you agree with this particular decision the message is clear - Americans value jocks over scientists, coaches over professors, and football over an educated work force.

I want this country to succeed in the next century, and we're not going to get there by spending less on education and more on entertainment.
 
[quote name='camoor']
I want this country to succeed in the next century, and we're not going to get there by spending less on education and more on entertainment.[/QUOTE]

I just don't see it changing anytime soon. The rampant capitalism has created a nation of hedonists who care more about being entertained and buying nice things than doing any thing productive and useful with their lives.

Add in the austerity dominated political climate and we're also unlikely to see any big increase in funding for education and research anytime soon as well.

Asia will be the leader in those areas in the next century, and we'll probably fall back behind some European nations as well as we already lag behind several in educational achievement.
 
Some good info at the following website: http://saveufcise.wordpress.com/

The good news is that it seems like there have been significant progress towards keeping the department intact.

And as for the earlier commenters who said CS is dime-a-dozen and that there are no jobs, software developers and engineers have very good job prospects moving forward:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm

Real computer science and software engineering is much more than indie developers working in their mom's basement hacking C++ code together for shitty $0.99 iphone apps.

IMHO the stupidity of the whole thing is that the administration is deciding to dissolve the CS department over this or that dollars, but are willing to trash literally decades of respect and recognition the program has worked so hard to build. Is it worth the $2 million in budgets to throw decades of recognition out the window? Not to mention the huge black mark they have put out for themselves demonstrating publically that they seem to have no real interest in keeping their computer science program on the cutting edge. If they're going to ditch their CISE program, one of the most profitable departments they have, what else are they willing to cut?

Ultimately I'm with dmaul here though- I too find it troubling that while UF athletics receive many millions in private donations, these donors don't seem as interested in supporting UF's educational program when it needs it most.
 
[quote name='Ruahrc']Ultimately I'm with dmaul here though- I too find it troubling that while UF athletics receive many millions in private donations, these donors don't seem as interested in supporting UF's educational program when it needs it most.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to bust on anyone for donating to their school, even if it's just the athletic program. People can do what they want with their money, and even if it's one of the more petty ways to make a donation it's still a donation to higher education.

I have a problem with the state subsidies of non-profitable football programs, and the college presidents who increasingly act like America's morally bankrupt CEOs (demanding huge pay, losing sight of the academic mission, treating the college budget like their own personal playground...)
 
[quote name='Ruahrc']Some good info at the following website: http://saveufcise.wordpress.com/

The good news is that it seems like there have been significant progress towards keeping the department intact.

And as for the earlier commenters who said CS is dime-a-dozen and that there are no jobs, software developers and engineers have very good job prospects moving forward:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm

Real computer science and software engineering is much more than indie developers working in their mom's basement hacking C++ code together for shitty $0.99 iphone apps.

IMHO the stupidity of the whole thing is that the administration is deciding to dissolve the CS department over this or that dollars, but are willing to trash literally decades of respect and recognition the program has worked so hard to build. Is it worth the $2 million in budgets to throw decades of recognition out the window? Not to mention the huge black mark they have put out for themselves demonstrating publically that they seem to have no real interest in keeping their computer science program on the cutting edge. If they're going to ditch their CISE program, one of the most profitable departments they have, what else are they willing to cut?

Ultimately I'm with dmaul here though- I too find it troubling that while UF athletics receive many millions in private donations, these donors don't seem as interested in supporting UF's educational program when it needs it most.[/QUOTE]

Where is all this recognition for their computer science program? How is it one of their most profitable programs? And no, I didn't visit the site, yet I also don't believe much information from that website to truly be objective. I'm looking at US News & World Reports Top 50 CS programs in the World. Nope, I don't see University of Florida. What I do see is 7 or 8 state institutions in the US not named University of Florida... It may be a fine school, even a fine program, but of all I've read on this nobody has mentioned UofF being nationally recognized for the computer sciences program. In fact the closest I've seen is it being said they have "an active research program". Also, all of this was brought on due to a budget shortage so I doubt the idea that they would gut "one of their most profitable departments."
 
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[quote name='Soodmeg']

It has been proven time and time again that athletics mostly football and basketball are almost the sole reason many non athletic programs get funded. [/QUOTE]

Where do people come up with this nonsense...
 
Fun fact, I never revisited the original article here. But Forbes has since posted two updates to clarify the situation. The first of which points out that the athletics budget is totally separate from the rest of the University's budget. So yeah, with the headline and all I'm starting to wonder if the Forbes writer was a computer science major...

Other fun facts on UofF's particular situation:

1) The state cut the University's budget by 30% over the past half-decade and yet they also approved a new "Florida Polytechnic University" which will operate "under the flag of science, technology, engineering and mathematics." This was done over the remains of University of South Florida's polytechnic programs.

1a) $0 is the amount the athletics department subsidizes from the university funds.

2) UofF has a low tuition compared to major public universities in other states. None of the major budget overhauls proposed have they included the possibility of dramatically increasing tuition like other major schools did when their states cut their budgets.

3) Their acceptance rate is (at least IMO) pretty low at 44%. Yet again no real talks for upping that rate for more money. Granted this would no doubt severely wound what academic rep they do have if they did that.

To me in this case, in seems as though the state of Florida is the "bad guy" here. The school was trying to balance all the cuts dealt to them by gutting a department that may in fact have to compete with a 12th Florida college in the near future. Also, it is all surprisingly unrelated to athletics (again at least in this case). Still, I agree with others and the original Forbes writer in that cutting an advancing technology field at this point in time is basically short-sighted.

Now the general athletics vs. academics debate may continue, for better of for worse...
 
Yeah, the reduction in state funding is the biggest problem in higher ed in recent years. Lot's of states have slashed funding 30% or more over the past 5 years or so which has made things bad for students as it means higher tuition, bigger classes, more classes taught by grad students and part time instructors etc.

And yeah, with the way the useless US News and other rankings are done, universities can't lower admission standards without dropping in the rankings. The rankings are pretty much BS and based mostly on gpa and test scores of incoming students and prestige rankings from other university admins and high school guidance counselors. They don't at all get at the quality of education given, career success of graduates etc.

Also, a lot of universities are at (or past) the max enrollment they can have with their current infrastructure. So some can't up enrollment as they just don't have the classroom space--much less dorm space.
 
It's just frustrating seeing funding for higher education slashed, as well as the sciences in general, yet spending (mostly private for big schools--and totally so for the top ones like UF) on trivial things like sports staying up and being increased in many places.

But again, it's just the fucked up priorities of the US in general. We're all about hedonism and just care about being entertained and enjoying life. We've lost the work ethic that made the country the world leader in innovation in the 20th century. But maybe it's not a bad thing. The world may be a better place with more countries stepping up to the plate. And I don't have the patriotism camoor has and really don't give a crap how the country does on the world stage going forward.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It's just frustrating seeing funding for higher education slashed, as well as the sciences in general, yet spending (mostly private for big schools--and totally so for the top ones like UF) on trivial things like sports staying up and being increased in many places.

But again, it's just the fucked up priorities of the US in general. We're all about hedonism and just care about being entertained and enjoying life. We've lost the work ethic that made the country the world leader in innovation in the 20th century. But maybe it's not a bad thing. The world may be a better place with more countries stepping up to the plate. And I don't have the patriotism camoor has and really don't give a crap how the country does on the world stage going forward.[/QUOTE]

I just think that for the past 60 years, US govt and corporations have treated workers better then most other countries and we have all reaped huge rewards because of this.

Most countries have nothing but a huge gap between the filthy rich and abject poverty, and it's sad to see Americans embrace that.

I get that America is declining, I just don't see any up-and-coming countries that will champion the benefits of a strong middle class.
 
[quote name='camoor']I just think that for the past 60 years, US govt and corporations have treated workers better then most other countries and we have all reaped huge rewards because of this.

Most countries have nothing but a huge gap between the filthy rich and abject poverty, and it's sad to see Americans embrace that.

I get that America is declining, I just don't see any up-and-coming countries that will champion the benefits of a strong middle class.[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree with that. Though I'd say a lot of European countries treat workers better and have more focus on work/life balance. More vacation days, longer maternity leave and paternity leave etc. Income inequality is probably worse than it was in the US a few decades ago, but people are generally not so materialistic and focused on money over there--much less emphasis on having a huge house, fancy car etc.

But it's definitely a problem with rising countries like China and India that have huge gaps between the rich and the poor, near slavery like conditions in factories etc.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']I agree, I am all for more eduction and I hate how the US is going in that topic but to just throw it all on the feet of a very easy and lazy target as college athletics is blah.[/QUOTE]

But it is a fitting target. As the USA Today data showed, most D1 schools are getting large subsidies from the state that could be going toward academics.

Lots of the budget cuts from the state could be offset if alumni donated to the general fund instead of the athletic department. And so on.

It's just a fitting example of our messed up priorities. Even within higher education, there are many who care more about their alma mater's sports teams than keeping their university strong academically so future generations get the same (or better) education that they got.

But the state subsidies are the real issue. Those simply should not exist. If college sports are going to exist, they should be funded entirely through the TV contracts, ticket and merchandise sales and private donations. Better yet, get the NFL and NBA paying to support the D1 schools rather than use them as a free minor league system.

We shouldn't have tax dollars subsidizing sports, much less at a time when public funding for higher education has been slashed 30%+ must places.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']But it is a fitting target. As the USA Today data showed, most D1 schools are getting large subsidies from the state that could be going toward academics. [/quote]

The terms "large" and/or "most" are subjective I suppose. In fact many D1 schools with large athletics programs are just like Florida in that the programs are big enough they can run off their own budgets. The latest data from ESPN shows that average percentage of total athletic dept. revenues that is subsidized from University funds for D1-A schools is 7%. So basically for every million the average D1 athletics program makes only $70,000 is taken from University subsidies. Over 20 programs take $0 in subsidies.

[quote name='dmaul1114']
Lots of the budget cuts from the state could be offset if alumni donated to the general fund instead of the athletic department. And so on.

It's just a fitting example of our messed up priorities. Even within higher education, there are many who care more about their alma mater's sports teams than keeping their university strong academically so future generations get the same (or better) education that they got.[/quote]

True, and I really agree. However, those budget cuts could be offset by many things and people who donate their money should have the right to say what they want to go towards, even if I think it's somewhat foolish. Though I believe that this trend of large budget cuts to state colleges and universities is incredibly short sighted. I don't know why legislators (and even the majority of the general public) cannot see the idea that putting in or cutting less from higher education oppertunities in your state is probably a better long-term investment than building a new government building or another unneeded highway construction project.

[quote name='dmaul1114']
But the state subsidies are the real issue. Those simply should not exist. If college sports are going to exist, they should be funded entirely through the TV contracts, ticket and merchandise sales and private donations. Better yet, get the NFL and NBA paying to support the D1 schools rather than use them as a free minor league system. [/quote]

I'm sort of on the fence here. I'd love to see NFL/NBA teams or whatever put more money into college athletics. But they are also a private corporation, and I wouldn't ask Google to fund Cal Berkeley just because they hire a lot of their graduates (I made that scenario up btw, though CEO Eric Schmidt did go there I think). Also, the question comes up about what to with all the other sports. After all it isn't football or men's basketball that kill athletic program's profits, it's sports that get no real recognition. Would you ask the NFL/NBA to support them as well?

In fact, the schools that subsidize little to no money from university funds are the majority of schools that provide the "minor league system" you talk about. The programs that bleed money are most often from the small conferences. When you think NFL draft you probably think Ohio State, LSU, etc., etc. You don't think of the schools subsidizing large amounts like Eastern Michigan University, Wyoming, University of Buffalo, etc. My solution? The NCAA should tighten reigns on the requirements to be a D1 program. Schools should have to meet certain financial benchmarks to become and maintain their D1 status. Which to be honest we may see at some point because these small conferences are disappearing giving way to super-conferences and I think that will eventually force some smaller schools out of D1.
 
Well, another way to deal with it would be simply for the NFL and NBA to run their own minor league systems to take kids right out of high school like MLB does. Rather than forcing them to go to college (or do whatever) for 1 year in NBA rules or 3 years in NFL rules.

If they'd done that to begin with, college sports probably wouldn't have become such big business. College baseball isn't all that popular or big money, and I think a lot of that has to do with most of the elite high school players going pro rather than to college.

Though having a minor league for the NFL and NBA wouldn't change things now since college football and basketball is so popular already. But at least it would keep the elite athletes who have no interest in learning or getting an education from wasting scholarships for 1-3 years because they either have to do that, play in another country or do something else in that time. They can start making money right away, and some more kids who don't have the talent to make it pro can get those scholarships and get a degree for playing college sports and being true student athletes.

The notion of a student athlete is a joke at the top programs. Especially with basketball since they only have to wait one year to go pro. They can just keep a 2.0 for the fall semester, and not worry at all about spring semester courses as the season's over mid-semester so they don't have to worry about being academically eligible since they have no intention of returning in the fall anyway. At least with football they have to stay three years so they have at least 5 semesters to have to stay eligible.
 
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[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']I'm sort of on the fence here. I'd love to see NFL/NBA teams or whatever put more money into college athletics. But they are also a private corporation, and I wouldn't ask Google to fund Cal Berkeley just because they hire a lot of their graduates (I made that scenario up btw, though CEO Eric Schmidt did go there I think).[/QUOTE]

I'd be happy if the NFL just bought their own stadiums instead of using my tax dollars.

I just think America needs to wake up. All of the 20th century bluecollar jobs are going to Asia. If we want America to be a nice place in the future we need to

1) Get the rich to pay their fair share in taxes and cleanup wallstreet (most important!)
2) Focus on the innovative research required to forge 21st century businesses and put America at the forefront of emerging opportunities
3) Create an educated, skilled workforce (whitecollar and bluecollar) that will be able to hold their own against the workforce of third-world countries with depressed wages and constant overtime

The UF story is largely symbolic - but it is useful as a metaphor for the greater forces at play here. Instead of taking up academic challenges in pursuit of long-term success we'd rather placate the mouthbreathers.

Having our knowledge centers cutting research and boosting funding of sports featuring neanderthal jocks beating the hell out of one another is the sad modern-day equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns.
 
[quote name='camoor']I'd be happy if the NFL just bought their own stadiums instead of using my tax dollars. [/quote]

I am certainly with you on this issue. I am for a city or state funding a small portion of new venue, but it should only be related to 2 things: how much the city uses for other events & a fair share of the returns on things like ticket sales. I know cities, especially the smaller markets, will use say a NFL stadium for all kinds of uses like concerts, conventions, expos, emergency centers, etc. But if the stadium is only being used as a venue for those things 25% of the time, then why should the city pony up more than 25%of the bill? Often times for new stadiums most cities/states foot probably 85-100% of the bill. And yes, it could mean some jobs stay in place, but especially in large markets those can be a small drop in a very big bucket.

Then there are the returns on things like ticket sales, merchandise, etc. In some cases the cities foot most of the bill to run the stadiums as well and their cut of the revenue is often just enough to cover those expenses let alone the cost of the actual venue. Which pretty much assures that the city will never payoff the bill on said venue. A part of me feels that city governments must bring in the worst negotiators they can possibly to draw up the details on these deals. Also at the very least things like building a new stdium should be put to a referendum for voters.

[quote name='camoor']
I just think America needs to wake up. All of the 20th century bluecollar jobs are going to Asia. If we want America to be a nice place in the future we need to

1) Get the rich to pay their fair share in taxes and cleanup wallstreet (most important!)
2) Focus on the innovative research required to forge 21st century businesses and put America at the forefront of emerging opportunities
3) Create an educated, skilled workforce (whitecollar and bluecollar) that will be able to hold their own against the workforce of third-world countries with depressed wages and constant overtime

The UF story is largely symbolic - but it is useful as a metaphor for the greater forces at play here. Instead of taking up academic challenges in pursuit of long-term success we'd rather placate the mouthbreathers.

Having our knowledge centers cutting research and boosting funding of sports featuring neanderthal jocks beating the hell out of one another is the sad modern-day equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns.[/QUOTE]

First, I have to say that even after Florida reversed their decision and chose to restructure the department instead of gut/kill it, the original decision still makes sense to me from a business standpoint. Does that mean I feel it works for every college? Hell no. In fact, many schools have no business involving themselves in the high cost of D1 athletics. But for Florida I can see the logic the Dean or president was using here. The state just cut your budget by 30% in a very short amount of time and on top of that the state is building a new polytechnic college (making 12 state colleges) that may well offer computer science or computer engineering programs. Meanwhile, the athletics department is making money hand over fist the past half a decade and operates on a separate budget free from the same cuts. I know standard practice as has been discussed is that athletic programs do jack to fund the rest of the school, but in looking up some other things on Florida's story I came across this article which I can't say if it's all that reliable but it had an interesting quote:

"The school themselves often benefit as well. Dosh notes that the Ohio State University, Louisiana State University and University of Florida football programs all gave money back to their respective schools to alleviate budget constraints and support various facility renovations."

Now, if that's at all true I can certainly see why someone could make a decision to increase the athletics budget while gutting an academic department. Granted, as I said before, I don't know if computer science was the smart choice, cutting a technology field does seem a bit odd in this day and age. I wonder if they cut like the Medieval studies department could they achieve the same result. So yes, it probably was symbolic, it's symbolic of how one thing may make good sense for one entity and not another. Then those with little knowledge of the full situation will jump on whatever side they feel like without being at all objective. And before I have to put up the flame shield, I'm not directing that at just this thread, but at the general response of even some in the media like the writer of the article in the original post.

Speaking of history, you bringing up Rome even if it was only metaphorical is interesting. Who wants to bet that back in ancient Rome or Greece they had this same debate? Somebody wanted to put more into academia and someone else was for bigger, better sports. The point is both have been part of pretty much every human society since man could add 2+2 and throw stuff really far, yet still both co-existed in every single one of those societies.
 
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[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']Then there are the returns on things like ticket sales, merchandise, etc. In some cases the cities foot most of the bill to run the stadiums as well and their cut of the revenue is often just enough to cover those expenses let alone the cost of the actual venue. Which pretty much assures that the city will never payoff the bill on said venue. A part of me feels that city governments must bring in the worst negotiators they can possibly to draw up the details on these deals. Also at the very least things like building a new stdium should be put to a referendum for voters.



First, I have to say that even after Florida reversed their decision and chose to restructure the department instead of gut/kill it, the original decision still makes sense to me from a business standpoint. Does that mean I feel it works for every college? Hell no. In fact, many schools have no business involving themselves in the high cost of D1 athletics. But for Florida I can see the logic the Dean or president was using here. The state just cut your budget by 30% in a very short amount of time and on top of that the state is building a new polytechnic college (making 12 state colleges) that may well offer computer science or computer engineering programs. Meanwhile, the athletics department is making money hand over fist the past half a decade and operates on a separate budget free from the same cuts. I know standard practice as has been discussed is that athletic programs do jack to fund the rest of the school, but in looking up some other things on Florida's story I came across this article which I can't say if it's all that reliable but it had an interesting quote:

"The school themselves often benefit as well. Dosh notes that the Ohio State University, Louisiana State University and University of Florida football programs all gave money back to their respective schools to alleviate budget constraints and support various facility renovations."

Now, if that's at all true I can certainly see why someone could make a decision to increase the athletics budget while gutting an academic department. Granted, as I said before, I don't know if computer science was the smart choice, cutting a technology field does seem a bit odd in this day and age. I wonder if they cut like the Medieval studies department could they achieve the same result. So yes, it probably was symbolic, it's symbolic of how one thing may make good sense for one entity and not another. Then those with little knowledge of the full situation will jump on whatever side they feel like without being at all objective. And before I have to put up the flame shield, I'm not directing that at just this thread, but at the general response of even some in the media like the writer of the article in the original post.

Speaking of history, you bringing up Rome even if it was only metaphorical is interesting. Who wants to bet that back in ancient Rome or Greece they had this same debate? Somebody wanted to put more into academia and someone else was for bigger, better sports. The point is both have been part of pretty much every human society since man could add 2+2 and throw stuff really far, yet still both co-existed in every single one of those societies.[/QUOTE]

You made a great point about stadiums - I fully agree.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's sad that the governor cut funding for the uni so severely, and that we're forcing our unis into thinking like cut-rate businesses.

We all reap the rewards when American universities forge new businesses out of cutting-edge research. We all reap the rewards when American university researchers come up with solutions to prominent social or medical issues. But higher education and research is not a commodity, these institutions need to be supported by our country to succeed. Other countries understand this, US used to understand this, but we're losing our way.
 
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