VP Debate: Biden vs. Palin... Pt. 2, The Aftermath

[quote name='KingBroly']I'm pretty sure allowing a politician to make all your health decisions is much worse than anything you can dream up.[/quote]Is, um. Is anyone actually doing that this election, or did you just bring that up because you wanted to out-do Koggit's worst-case scenario?

If it's the latter, then you might as well bring up velociraptors with laser guns for all it matters - that's way worse than either.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I'm pretty sure allowing a politician to make all your health decisions is much worse than anything you can dream up.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for admitting that you have absolutely no understanding of Obama's healthcare plan by making such an irrelevant statement -- it keeps me from wasting much time on a lost cause.
 
Given what you've said here already, unless you specifically explain your problems with it, you're gonna have to excuse Koggit here for thinking that you have no idea what Obama's plan is.
 
One thing I find is that I don't really like it when a politician smiles as the opponent derides his/her policies.

It's almost as if that politician thinks of him/herself as "better" than their opponent.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']That is another thing Biden said that was misleading in the debate, calling McCain's plan a massive tax increase. Well, if you only include half his plan and leave out the $5,000 tax credit coupled with it, then it is a tax increase. But independent analysis of the plan has shown that most people would get a tax break, especially those less well off, under this plan. Biden claimed 20 million people would "lose their insurance" under McCain's plan, yet failed to mention 21 million would gain insurance another way, thus being a net gain. There are things to criticize, but they are just being dishonest about the whole thing.[/QUOTE]

the 20 million is the proposed number that would lose their work funded insurance plans. he went on to say those plans cost the employer an average of $12k annually, he then stated it would be difficult for those 20 million to acquire a $12k plan for the $5k credit mccain is proposing.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']not saying mccains plan is great, but obamas healthcare plans leaves me... skeptical.[/quote]

man

If any candidate did what you have Obama doing in your sig

I would follow him to the ends of the universe
 
[quote name='zoozilla']One thing I find is that I don't really like it when a politician smiles as the opponent derides his/her policies.

It's almost as if that politician thinks of him/herself as "better" than their opponent.[/quote]

Most, if not all politicians think they're better than the American people. End of discussion.
 
[quote name='zoozilla']One thing I find is that I don't really like it when a politician smiles as the opponent derides his/her policies.

It's almost as if that politician thinks of him/herself as "better" than their opponent.[/quote]

Agreed, I got that feeling in floods when watching the McCain/Obama debate, when Obama was taking everything "very seriously" and with an "srs business" expression, and McCain was smiling and grinning anytime he wasn't speaking. It drives me nuts that any politician can have the audacity to smile when discussing how much of a shithole our country has dug itself into.

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='paz9x']the 20 million is the proposed number that would lose their work funded insurance plans. he went on to say those plans cost the employer an average of $12k annually, he then stated it would be difficult for those 20 million to acquire a $12k plan for the $5k credit mccain is proposing.[/QUOTE]

I know, I was saying that they ignore the coverage increases while focusing only on the negatives, which is very misleading. I am not advocating McCain's plan at all.

Here is what looks like an unbiased summary:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.27.6.w472/DC1
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Here is what looks like an unbiased summary:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.27.6.w472/DC1[/QUOTE]

Wow -- I didn't think his plan could be any worse than I already perceived it to be, but it really is.

Currently, the nongroup insurance market is regulated at the state level, and local insurers, often Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans, are major players. Senator McCain's proposal envisions a relatively unregulated national market for nongroup insurance in which families would buy insurance on their own or as members of fluid, voluntary associations, such as churches or clubs. In this market, consumers could select insurers licensed in any state. With more choice and competition, he believes that costs would fall and service quality would increase.

Everything we know about nongroup insurance markets, however, suggests that this vision is wrong. Health care is the ultimate local good: it is provided face to face, between doctor and patient. Today, most health plans negotiate contracts with local providers, directly or through intermediaries. The only truly national plans are traditional indemnity plans that do not negotiate with local provider networks. Such plans were once the backbone of American health care. They lost out to more tailored plans, however, because they could not compete effectively. Without an informed local network, their prices were higher and quality was lower. There is no reason to think that this has changed.
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought of it this way before. I always thought of the deregulation as the one acceptable aspect of his proposal. But, no, his "plan" is complete shit through and through.
 
I think McCain and Palin are so obsessed with looking and acting average in every way. McCain reminds of the kooky old codger that lived down the street and Palin is nailing the harried hockey mom. These are people that live down the street. Then again, I can't think of anyone on my street that I would want to lead the free world.
 
[quote name='depascal22']McCain reminds of the kooky old codger that lived down the street... I can't think of anyone on my street that I would want to lead the free world.[/quote]
I don't know what you're talking about. Senor Cardgage was awesome!
 
Palin has a new attack on obama...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/04/palin.obama/index.html


I like this comment on CNN

"
October 4th, 2008 5:40 pm ET
I'm a little confused. Let me see if I have this straight…..
* If you grow up in Hawaii , raised by your grandparents, you're 'exotic, different.'
* Grow up in Alaska eating moose burgers, yours is a quintessential American story.
* If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.
* Name your kids Willow , Trig and Track, you're a maverick.
* Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable.
* Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you're well grounded.
* If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the first black
President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter registration drive that
Registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional Law
professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over
750,000 people, become chairman of the state Senate's Health and Human
Services committee, spend 4 years in the United States Senate representing a state
of 13 million people while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs,
Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees, you don't have any
real leadership experience.
* If your total resume is: local weather girl, 4 years on the city council and 6
years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people, 20 months as the
governor of a state with only 650,000 people, then you're qualified to become
the country's second highest ranking executive and next in line behind a man
in his eighth decade.
* If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while raising 2 beautiful
daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're not a real Christian.
* If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and then left your disfigured wife
and married the heiress the next month, you're a true Christian.
* If you teach responsible, age appropriate sex education, including the proper use of
birth control, you are eroding the fiber of society.
* If, while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no other option in sex
education in your state's school system while your unwed teen daughter ends up
pregnant, you're very responsible.
* If your wife is a Harvard graduate lawyer who gave up a position in a prestigious
Law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to
raise a family, your family's values don't represent America 's.
* If you're husband is nicknamed "First Dude", with at least one DWI conviction and
no college education, who didn't register to vote until age 25 and once was a
member of a group that advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your
family is extremely admirable.
OK, that makes it much more clearer now…
"
 
[quote name='SpazX']Well so far the debate seems to have had little to no effect on the polls.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I really think there are very very few people undecided. 99% have already decided who they are voting for, and nothing in the debates is going to change their mind.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Yeah I really think there are very very few people undecided. 99% have already decided who they are voting for, and nothing in the debates is going to change their mind.[/quote]

All the stats I've read say it's more like 10-15%

Generally these are low information people too - they don't read a newspaper and they only tune in late.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122324148242705731.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
 
[quote name='lilboo']Really?
I'd love for Obama to win, but I really don't see him winning--let alone by a landslide![/quote]
Honestly im thinking he just might. The McCain camp looks very lost right now all of their tricks are backfiring. He is down in the polls (I know Polls mean nothing) and almost every battleground state is showing Obama at a tie or winning.
 
[quote name='Sc4rfac3']Honestly im thinking he just might. The McCain camp looks very lost right now all of their tricks are backfiring. He is down in the polls (I know Polls mean nothing) and almost every battleground state is showing Obama at a tie or winning.[/quote]

Polls mean something. Due to margin of error few points on a poll may not mean much - but properly interpreted they can tell you quite a bit.
 
[quote name='camoor']Billy, that's great. I doubt you're going to get any retort, it punches too many holes in the strong resurgence of self-delusion gripping converatives desperately looking for a reason to support Palin.[/quote]

Good stuff. My neighbor in California turned out to be a registered sex offender. I talked with him on occasion, in a neighborly fashion. Does that make me a sex offender? Hope not.
 
No. It just brings your character into question because you associated with him. After all, you should properly vette anyone you ever have contact with just in case you end up running for President. Never mind if one of our candidates had only a five minute chat with the VP candidate. That's just the liberal racist sexist middle class loving corruption exposing media doing it's worse to discredit you.
 
I think that attack from Palin is going to hurt more than help her, look people who are voting for McCain already think he is a mooslim terrorist.
 
[quote name='camoor']Billy, that's great. I doubt you're going to get any retort, it punches too many holes in the strong resurgence of self-delusion gripping converatives desperately looking for a reason to support Palin.[/QUOTE]

its too bad shes using these hannity-esque attacks. im sure a lot of repubicans eat it up, but its not going to convince any of the people they need to win over, independents. id say most of those people know that this means nothing, i went to high school and even had classes with drug dealers, soooo you know what that means.
 
True that. At this point, most of the left and center are fed up with the bad attack ads.

Obama once ran a red light. That means he could've hit you and your family. That makes him a criminal that has no right to run this country. Vote McCain.

Obama used to buy weed from Pablo the Mexican. Pablo used that money to smuggle his pregnant wife and small children across the border. Thus, Obama supports illegal immigration and is out for your job. Vote McCain.
 
[quote name='billyrox']Palin has a new attack on obama...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/04/palin.obama/index.html


I like this comment on CNN

"
October 4th, 2008 5:40 pm ET
I'm a little confused. Let me see if I have this straight…..
* If you grow up in Hawaii , raised by your grandparents, you're 'exotic, different.'
* Grow up in Alaska eating moose burgers, yours is a quintessential American story.
* If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.
* Name your kids Willow , Trig and Track, you're a maverick.
* Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable.
* Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you're well grounded.
* If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the first black
President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter registration drive that
Registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional Law
professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over
750,000 people, become chairman of the state Senate's Health and Human
Services committee, spend 4 years in the United States Senate representing a state
of 13 million people while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs,
Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees, you don't have any
real leadership experience.
* If your total resume is: local weather girl, 4 years on the city council and 6
years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people, 20 months as the
governor of a state with only 650,000 people, then you're qualified to become
the country's second highest ranking executive and next in line behind a man
in his eighth decade.
* If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while raising 2 beautiful
daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're not a real Christian.
* If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and then left your disfigured wife
and married the heiress the next month, you're a true Christian.
* If you teach responsible, age appropriate sex education, including the proper use of
birth control, you are eroding the fiber of society.
* If, while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no other option in sex
education in your state's school system while your unwed teen daughter ends up
pregnant, you're very responsible.
* If your wife is a Harvard graduate lawyer who gave up a position in a prestigious
Law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to
raise a family, your family's values don't represent America 's.
* If you're husband is nicknamed "First Dude", with at least one DWI conviction and
no college education, who didn't register to vote until age 25 and once was a
member of a group that advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your
family is extremely admirable.
OK, that makes it much more clearer now…
"[/QUOTE]


Wow classic.
 
[quote name='sp00ge']Good stuff. My neighbor in California turned out to be a registered sex offender. I talked with him on occasion, in a neighborly fashion. Does that make me a sex offender? Hope not.[/QUOTE]

Your analogy would only apply if you knew he was a sex offender before hand, and did more than talk to him, you invited him over for bbq's and movies.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Did Obama invite Ayers over for BBQs and if he did, was it a neighborhood thing?[/quote]

And did they plan how to bomb certain targets? Ayers hasn't bombed anything for decades, which can only mean that he's cooking up something really good.
 
[quote name='SpazX']And did they plan how to bomb certain targets? Ayers hasn't bombed anything for decades, which can only mean that he's cooking up something really good.[/quote]

The beautiful thing is that he was never convicted. You really can be convicted in the public's eye and never lead a normal life afterwards.

So after all the hubbub, all they have is that Obama served on a board of a non-profit with Ayers and also that they were on a 6 person panel together. I'm sure Obama wasn't going to back out of those just because Ayers was going to be there. Also, why is everyone outraged that two Chicago intellectuals worked together a total of twice in a decade?
 
[quote name='depascal22']The beautiful thing is that he was never convicted. You really can be convicted in the public's eye and never lead a normal life afterwards.

So after all the hubbub, all they have is that Obama served on a board of a non-profit with Ayers and also that they were on a 6 person panel together. I'm sure Obama wasn't going to back out of those just because Ayers was going to be there. Also, why is everyone outraged that two Chicago intellectuals worked together a total of twice in a decade?[/quote]

Well he's a professor in Chicago anyway, which is bad enough. I guess that a possible domestic terrorist is a little worse in the Republicans' eyes than a liberal college professor, so they went with that.
 
[quote name='yukine']Homosexuals are mavericks.

McCain is a maverick.

Therefore, McCain is a homosexual.[/QUOTE]

So he doesnt have a dog house out back?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Well he's a professor in Chicago anyway, which is bad enough. I guess that a possible domestic terrorist is a little worse in the Republicans' eyes than a liberal college professor, so they went with that.[/quote]

The Obama campaign can just come back with Palin's husband being a secessionist. Since she was married to the guy, that association is a little more important.
 
Kids are off limits. The man that you choose to marry should be fair game especially if he's a former member of a party that wanted to secede from the union.
 
I don't think it will have enough of an effect to really need retaliation. Hopefully they just take the high road and debunk it then ignore it.
 
[quote name='depascal22']True. It's better to just stay calm and collected and make McCain and Palin look like the crazy irrational ones.[/QUOTE]

Definitely. They're coming across as desperate. Obama/Biden just need to take the high road, not make these types of silly attacks on McCain/Palin as doing so to keep up this image that the opposition is desperate and knows they can't win on the issues.
 
This week, the Obama campaign is planning a counterattack on McCain by talking about the Keating Five... Obama has always said that his campaign is about the future, and this happened 20 years ago, so why would they bring it up? They should've continued taking the high road...
 
Because that's what politicians do. If he does talk about it a lot, which he MIGHT do (smart if he doesn't) he could get burned on it because it goes against his message of hope and change and being bipartisan (magical word there) and not scaring away people from the other candidate (like he said in his convention speech).

People stay home because of negative messages. Especially, newly registered ones.
 
I think the best thing for the Obama campaign to do is to keep pushing the "More of the same" message. And how McCain and his campaign are trying to distract from the issues.
 
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