Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

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There is a simple reason health care in the United States costs more than it does anywhere else: The prices are higher.

That may sound obvious. But it is, in fact, key to understanding one of the most pressing problems facing our economy. In 2009, Americans spent $7,960 per person on health care. Our neighbors in Canada spent $4,808. The Germans spent $4,218. The French, $3,978. If we had the per-person costs of any of those countries, America’s deficits would vanish. Workers would have much more money in their pockets. Our economy would grow more quickly, as our exports would be more competitive.

There are many possible explanations for why Americans pay so much more. It could be that we’re sicker. Or that we go to the doctor more frequently. But health researchers have largely discarded these theories. As Gerard Anderson, Uwe Reinhardt, Peter Hussey and Varduhi Petrosyan put it in the title of their influential 2003 study on international health-care costs, “it’s the prices, stupid.”

As it’s difficult to get good data on prices, that paper blamed prices largely by eliminating the other possible culprits. They authors considered, for instance, the idea that Americans were simply using more health-care services, but on close inspection, found that Americans don’t see the doctor more often or stay longer in the hospital than residents of other countries. Quite the opposite, actually. We spend less time in the hospital than Germans and see the doctor less often than the Canadians.

“The United States spends more on health care than any of the other OECD countries spend, without providing more services than the other countries do,” they concluded. “This suggests that the difference in spending is mostly attributable to higher prices of goods and services.”

On Friday, the International Federation of Health Plans — a global insurance trade association that includes more than 100 insurers in 25 countries — released more direct evidence. It surveyed its members on the prices paid for 23 medical services and products in different countries, asking after everything from a routine doctor’s visit to a dose of Lipitor to coronary bypass surgery. And in 22 of 23 cases, Americans are paying higher prices than residents of other developed countries. Usually, we’re paying quite a bit more. The exception is cataract surgery, which appears to be costlier in Switzerland, though cheaper everywhere else.

Prices don’t explain all of the difference between America and other countries. But they do explain a big chunk of it. The question, of course, is why Americans pay such high prices — and why we haven’t done anything about it.

“Other countries negotiate very aggressively with the providers and set rates that are much lower than we do,” Anderson says. They do this in one of two ways. In countries such as Canada and Britain, prices are set by the government. In others, such as Germany and Japan, they’re set by providers and insurers sitting in a room and coming to an agreement, with the government stepping in to set prices if they fail.

In America, Medicare and Medicaid negotiate prices on behalf of their tens of millions of members and, not coincidentally, purchase care at a substantial markdown from the commercial average. But outside that, it’s a free-for-all. Providers largely charge what they can get away with, often offering different prices to different insurers, and an even higher price to the uninsured.

Health care is an unusual product in that it is difficult, and sometimes impossible, for the customer to say “no.” In certain cases, the customer is passed out, or otherwise incapable of making decisions about her care, and the decisions are made by providers whose mandate is, correctly, to save lives rather than money.

In other cases, there is more time for loved ones to consider costs, but little emotional space to do so — no one wants to think there was something more they could have done to save their parent or child. It is not like buying a television, where you can easily comparison shop and walk out of the store, and even forgo the purchase if it’s too expensive. And imagine what you would pay for a television if the salesmen at Best Buy knew that you couldn’t leave without making a purchase.

“In my view, health is a business in the United States in quite a different way than it is elsewhere,” says Tom Sackville, who served in Margaret Thatcher’s government and now directs the IFHP. “It’s very much something people make money out of. There isn’t too much embarrassment about that compared to Europe and elsewhere.”

The result is that, unlike in other countries, sellers of health-care services in America have considerable power to set prices, and so they set them quite high. Two of the five most profitable industries in the United States — the pharmaceuticals industry and the medical device industry — sell health care. With margins of almost 20 percent, they beat out even the financial sector for sheer profitability.

The players sitting across the table from them — the health insurers — are not so profitable. In 2009, their profit margins were a mere 2.2 percent. That’s a signal that the sellers have the upper hand over the buyers.

This is a good deal for residents of other countries, as our high spending makes medical innovations more profitable. “We end up with the benefits of your investment,” Sackville says. “You’re subsidizing the rest of the world by doing the front-end research.”

But many researchers are skeptical that this is an effective way to fund medical innovation. “We pay twice as much for brand-name drugs as most other industrialized countries,” Anderson says. “But the drug companies spend only 12 percent of their revenues on innovation. So yes, some of that money goes to innovation, but only 12 percent of it.”

And others point out that you also need to account for the innovations and investments that our spending on health care is squeezing out. “There are opportunity costs,” says Reinhardt, an economist at Princeton. “The money we spend on health care is money we don’t spend educating our children, or investing in infrastructure, scientific research and defense spending. So if what this means is we ultimately have overmedicalized, poorly educated Americans competing with China, that’s not a very good investment.”

But as simple an explanation as “the prices are higher” is, it is a devilishly difficult problem to fix. Those prices, for one thing, mean profits for a large number of powerful — and popular — industries. For another, centralized bargaining cuts across the grain of America’s skepticism of government solutions. In the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit, for instance, Congress expressly barred Medicare from negotiating the prices of drugs that it was paying for.

The 2010 health-reform law does little to directly address prices. It includes provisions forcing hospitals to publish their prices, which would bring more transparency to this issue, and it gives lawmakers more tools and more information they could use to address prices at some future date. The hope is that by gathering more data to find out which treatments truly work, the federal government will eventually be able to set prices based on the value of treatments, which would be easier than simply setting lower prices across-the-board. But this is, for the most part, a fight the bill ducked, which is part of the reason that even its most committed defenders don’t think we’ll be paying anything like what they’re paying in other countries anytime soon.

“There is so much inefficiency in our system, that there’s a lot of low-hanging fruit we can deal with before we get into regulating people’s prices.” says Len Nichols, director of the Center for Health Policy Research and Ethics at George Mason University. “Maybe, after we’ve cut waste for 10 years, we’ll be ready to have a discussion over prices.”

And some economists warn that though high prices help explain why America spends so much more on health care than other countries, cutting prices is no cure-all if it doesn’t also cut the rate of growth. After all, if you drop prices by 20 percent, but health-care spending still grows by seven percent a year, you’ve wiped out the savings in three years.

Even so, Anderson says, “if I could change one thing in the United States to bring down total health expenditures, it would definitely be the prices.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...280-in-france/2011/08/25/gIQAVHztoR_blog.html
 
That article nails it for me. There is no reason why health care in America should be so much more than other countries. I may be mistaken in this, but I once read that doctors cannot charge less for a procedure than they charge the government for Medicare/caid. As a result, even if a doctor wanted to charge $1 for an MRI, they would have to offer that same price to the gov't, which of course they would never do because Medicare/caid payment delays and paperwork is such a goddamned nuisance, docs despise dealing with them and feel justified charging them more since it's such a hassle. So the rest of us pay for the hassle that the system causes in higher costs for treatment.

I don't see why we can't have "safe liver" discounts for people who take actions not to be obese, have certain physical fitness standards, don't drink, have unprotected sex. Granted applicants will lie on all of those things, but then they are committing insurance fraud and there is recourse for the insurer. I get discounts on car insurance by not getting in wrecks, not getting tickets, and my car is better insured than my body. Is there a fat, whore (m or f), smoker, lazy lobby that prevents this from ever being implemented...well, other than Congress, which fits that description too.

To take it totally off topic, I have 4 close friends who just finished up residency and are now working doctors. Much like a complaint a college prof once brought up-professors are never required to take a course in teaching, just courses in their field of study meaning you could have brilliant people who teach like shit (which I'm sure we've all experienced), doctors never take courses in business. They study medicine, so the ins and outs of running a practice, dealing with insurance companies, the government, they learn on the job, or hire someone else to do it for them.

I hope every health insurance exec gets some horribly expensive disease and is left fighting their own company over fair payment of benefits. These people are a minor step above child rapists on the ladder of despicable crime.
 
It's just the nature of the US being the leading capitalist nation. When the majority of people's motivation is to make as much money as possible, costs for things skyrocket.

People mainly go into medicine to try to make money these days rather than to help people. Thus we have high prices, and a shortage of primary care physicians as people eschew that for higher paying specialist positions.

There's other shit that goes into as well, like our stupid litigation system that makes malpractice insurance cost a fortune.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']But but but talk radio told me a free market lowers prices...[/QUOTE]

Agreed that Limbaugh and his cronies babble about one-sided horseshit, but this isn't really a free market, if my understanding that doctors cannot charge whatever they want, is correct.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It's just the nature of the US being the leading capitalist nation. When the majority of people's motivation is to make as much money as possible, costs for things skyrocket.

People mainly go into medicine to try to make money these days rather than to help people. Thus we have high prices, and a shortage of primary care physicians as people eschew that for higher paying specialist positions.

There's other shit that goes into as well, like our stupid litigation system that makes malpractice insurance cost a fortune.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't it all start with the high cost of education to be a doctor? You need a 4 year degree to make millions as an insurance company exec. You need damn near a decade of schooling and practice before you can become a doctor. They have to recoup their expenses in the investment of their career too. I don't know, the docs I know got into medicine not because it paid great, but because they were passionate about it. Maybe they'll become disillusioned and spiteful as their careers progress, but for now, their intent is still patient care and giving back to society. Docs don't really make that much, take home.
 
I've said before, but I think programs which help pay for medical school and get a few years of service in return are a good idea. Help pay for someone's medical schooling and they spend a few years working in underprivileged areas in return.

And I don't think it's really fair to compare the schooling needed to rise in business with the schooling required to practice medicine. You're talking about running a business vs. potentially savings lives. If an exec runs a business into the ground it's just another failed business, if a doctor screws up caring for a patient somebody could die.
 
That would certainly help. No reason doctors should being going to med schools on free ride plus stipend assistantships like Ph Ds in most fields. And that's a more fair comparison (other than the lives at stake bit) since you're talking a minimum of 5-6 years beyond college to get a Ph D in most fields/programs.

The trade off has to be lower salaries with cost cuts passed on to patients and insurers though.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Doesn't it all start with the high cost of education to be a doctor? You need a 4 year degree to make millions as an insurance company exec. You need damn near a decade of schooling and practice before you can become a doctor. They have to recoup their expenses in the investment of their career too. I don't know, the docs I know got into medicine not because it paid great, but because they were passionate about it. Maybe they'll become disillusioned and spiteful as their careers progress, but for now, their intent is still patient care and giving back to society. Docs don't really make that much, take home.[/QUOTE]

If that is the case then why are so many doctors Republican?
 
[quote name='berzirk']Doesn't it all start with the high cost of education to be a doctor? You need a 4 year degree to make millions as an insurance company exec. You need damn near a decade of schooling and practice before you can become a doctor. They have to recoup their expenses in the investment of their career too. I don't know, the docs I know got into medicine not because it paid great, but because they were passionate about it. Maybe they'll become disillusioned and spiteful as their careers progress, but for now, their intent is still patient care and giving back to society. Docs don't really make that much, take home.[/QUOTE]
This is the same argument that HENRY's use when they say that $250k doesn't make them rich or it's that much money, which is a ridiculous argument because there's obviously not going to be much leftover after you spent most of it. I agree that the loans are huge, but they make more than a living wage that's above the median household income.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']That would certainly help. No reason doctors should being going to med schools on free ride plus stipend assistantships like Ph Ds in most fields. And that's a more fair comparison (other than the lives at stake bit) since you're talking a minimum of 5-6 years beyond college to get a Ph D in most fields/programs.

The trade off has to be lower salaries with cost cuts passed on to patients and insurers though.[/QUOTE]

But the take home pay isn't really as high as people are led to believe, especially if it's a private practice. They have the business expenses, the payroll, their own retirement and other benefits to cover, then pay themselves with the remainder, while keeping enough to re-invest and keep their practice up to date.

The only reason I compared it to a business exec (health insurance exec specifically) is because I think that's where the health industry gets so ruined. The insurance companies profit by screwing their customers as hard as possible, because the consumer doesn't have any choice, especially if they now have a pre-existing condition. The doctor will treat you. The health insurance company won't authorize payment, so to me, if we're talking about which person is more insidious, and overcompensated, it's the exec. The doc isn't making as much as that person, they went to school longer and paid faar more for their education. Being a doc, much like being a lawyer, isn't as glamorous or as high paying as many assume.
 
[quote name='dohdough']This is the same argument that HENRY's use when they say that $250k doesn't make them rich or it's that much money, which is a ridiculous argument because there's obviously not going to be much leftover after you spent most of it. I agree that the loans are huge, but they make more than a living wage that's above the median household income.[/QUOTE]

Henry's? I don't think I know the reference. I'm not talking about the doc needing to pay off his Lambo or mansion though, I'm talking about paying his/her business expenses from the revenue the office generates. Strictly in terms of business expenses, they have to pay a lot in order to stay in business, and have to buy in at a much higher level than people in other industries. With the higher risk, investment cost, and responsibility, it seems perfectly normal that they should expect to earn more than many other professions (maybe that's the part where you and I philosophically disagree...?)
 
Doctors should make a high salary due to the education required and what's at stake.

The system just needs fixed so they aren't charging $200-300 for a 10 minute sick visit appointment, thousands of dollars for tests that go for a few hundred bucks in other countries etc.

And that's the key. Other countries have good health care systems for a fraction of the cost of what we have here. So it's not like it's some unachievable, utopian ideal.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Doctors should make a high salary due to the education required and what's at stake.

The system just needs fixed so they aren't charging $200-300 for a 10 minute sick visit appointment, thousands of dollars for tests that go for a few hundred bucks in other countries etc.

And that's the key. Other countries have good health care systems for a fraction of the cost of what we have here. So it's not like it's some unachievable, utopian ideal.[/QUOTE]

100% agree. And to me, the fact that insurance payouts are what they are, either from Medicare/caid, or a private company, they need to charge that much to cover billing expenses, long payment terms, and the risk of no payment. I still go back to the question of why on earth are our costs for a procedure so much higher?
 
For the reasons you note. A lot of other countries have universal health care and thus have standard charges/payouts for things so doctors can't charge big fees and just take what they get from the various insurance they except. Also less office staff needed to deal with insurance claims and petitions etc. which cuts down on costs.

Also with different malpractice law suit policies, and I imagine doctors get paid less in a lot of other countries as well.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Henry's? I don't think I know the reference. I'm not talking about the doc needing to pay off his Lambo or mansion though, I'm talking about paying his/her business expenses from the revenue the office generates. Strictly in terms of business expenses, they have to pay a lot in order to stay in business, and have to buy in at a much higher level than people in other industries. With the higher risk, investment cost, and responsibility, it seems perfectly normal that they should expect to earn more than many other professions (maybe that's the part where you and I philosophically disagree...?)[/QUOTE]
High Earning Not Rich Yet.;)

Btw, we're in agreement that doctors should earn more as they provide one of the most important services period and this is why I think that doctoral studies should not only be more subsidized, but to subsidize more more care as it's a public good.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']But but but talk radio told me a free market lowers prices...[/QUOTE]

Complete lack of competition and consumer choice...

While doctors in other countries may make less, the doctor:patient ratio is probably wildly different as well just based on population. Since most other post industrial economies also have socialised or at least single payer systems for their medical deals, there is also significantly less overhead.

On the other hand, the Canadian system (for instance) simply wouldn't work in the US based on our population.
 
The healthcare system needs wholesale reform. The entire system needs to change from cost of medical school, to training, to our legal system, to the way hospitals operate, to patient care and preventative medicine. Then and only then can we mimick some of the European system. Obviously, no one wants such radical change so we do the best we can within the given constraints.
 
[quote name='nasum']Complete lack of competition and consumer choice...

While doctors in other countries may make less, the doctor:patient ratio is probably wildly different as well just based on population. Since most other post industrial economies also have socialised or at least single payer systems for their medical deals, there is also significantly less overhead.

On the other hand, the Canadian system (for instance) simply wouldn't work in the US based on our population.[/QUOTE]

I think that a Canadian style system could work in the US. My understanding is that healthcare in Canada is administered bY the provinces, and that costs (taxes) and availability of services differs in each province.

Why wouldn't the same be done in the US? The states would be required to have a universal healthcare system, but each state would get to make decisions on costs, number of hospitals, doctors, etc.
 
[quote name='chiwii']Why wouldn't the same be done in the US? The states would be required to have a universal healthcare system, but each state would get to make decisions on costs, number of hospitals, doctors, etc.[/QUOTE]

Great, there's going to be one doctor for the state of California with that plan.
 
[quote name='chiwii']I think that a Canadian style system could work in the US. My understanding is that healthcare in Canada is administered bY the provinces, and that costs (taxes) and availability of services differs in each province.

Why wouldn't the same be done in the US? The states would be required to have a universal healthcare system, but each state would get to make decisions on costs, number of hospitals, doctors, etc.[/QUOTE]

So wouldn't everyone just go to a cheaper state to have procedures done? If there was a policy in place to prevent that, then what happens if you're in a non-native state and you get sick or injured?

I'm not sure I understand why a single federal plan, or individual state plans are so desirable. Don't get me wrong, taking money away from the current insurance providers sounds terrific, but perhaps the only entity I distrust with my safety and health at the same level, is the federal government.

In fact, maybe I don't understand the fundamentals of the "Obamacare" bill. The mandatory insurance purchase is terrible to me, and as someone who is covered by an employer, but purchases private insurance for my wife and kids, our premiums increased like mad weeks after Obamacare went through. It's kind of like when the banks started trying to screw customers harder because of ATM fee laws.

What's wrong with keeping the healthcare for old/poor people available at a subsidy or free through the Feds, allow the government to be a health insurance company that can set it's rates at whatever it wants, then have people choose A) Whether they want insurance or not and B) who has the best value in a plan? Make the government's non-free insurance have to operate like a business, in the sense that they can't lose money in order to squash the other insurance companies, but if they want to make $1 profit each year, more power to them. I'd "buy" their insurance today if it were the best value. But this is all moot unless costs for medicine can decrease. Well, that and the fact that doctors hate billing Medicare/caid because of the headaches and poor payouts.

Bleh. I'm already seeing so many practical and political impediments to anything comprehensive and logical in the health industry that my thoughts couldn't or wouldn't be possible. This sucks. The only way this could be a bigger clusterfuck is if the military got involved.
 
To further rant, perhaps what we need is more transparency in healthcare. Have any of you ever asked for an estimate on costs for a procedure? I ripped up a bunch of ligaments in a finger in a sports injury, and I wanted to find out how much it would cost for the checkup, and Xrays. The doctor's office couldn't tell me. They could give me a code for that procedure, that I could then call a different department and after giving them my insurance information they could tell me a possible range, but only if my insurance company actually paid their 80% (assuming I met the annual deductable, which I hadn't).

We talk about calories on menus as important so we can make choices based on health. Why can't we see prices on things as they are offered in medicine? When my wife had a baby last time, she needed some Advil to deal with post birth contractions. I just figured that is normal stuff. Later, only after asking for an itemized bill, one goddamn advil was $10. We didn't have the option of asking how much it would cost, we just assumed they were taking care of us. Seriously?

...ok...I think I'm done ranting...for now.
 
[quote name='berzirk']So wouldn't everyone just go to a cheaper state to have procedures done? If there was a policy in place to prevent that, then what happens if you're in a non-native state and you get sick or injured?

I'm not sure I understand why a single federal plan, or individual state plans are so desirable. Don't get me wrong, taking money away from the current insurance providers sounds terrific, but perhaps the only entity I distrust with my safety and health at the same level, is the federal government.

In fact, maybe I don't understand the fundamentals of the "Obamacare" bill. The mandatory insurance purchase is terrible to me, and as someone who is covered by an employer, but purchases private insurance for my wife and kids, our premiums increased like mad weeks after Obamacare went through. It's kind of like when the banks started trying to screw customers harder because of ATM fee laws.

What's wrong with keeping the healthcare for old/poor people available at a subsidy or free through the Feds, allow the government to be a health insurance company that can set it's rates at whatever it wants, then have people choose A) Whether they want insurance or not and B) who has the best value in a plan? Make the government's non-free insurance have to operate like a business, in the sense that they can't lose money in order to squash the other insurance companies, but if they want to make $1 profit each year, more power to them. I'd "buy" their insurance today if it were the best value. But this is all moot unless costs for medicine can decrease. Well, that and the fact that doctors hate billing Medicare/caid because of the headaches and poor payouts.

Bleh. I'm already seeing so many practical and political impediments to anything comprehensive and logical in the health industry that my thoughts couldn't or wouldn't be possible. This sucks. The only way this could be a bigger clusterfuck is if the military got involved.[/QUOTE]
Going to another state for better care doesn't work for the same reason that moving to another state for job opportunites isn't possible for most people. I think it's fairly obvious that most of the red states would have shit care without federal funding and a region like New England wouldn't have as much of a problem, but there are a lot of people in the middle of the country that wouldn't really have an option.

Also, I think that having the public option be run like a business is not feasible. If they're going to take in the most vulnerable in the country, it's mostlikely not going to be self-sufficient without massive federal funding.

[quote name='berzirk']To further rant, perhaps what we need is more transparency in healthcare. Have any of you ever asked for an estimate on costs for a procedure? I ripped up a bunch of ligaments in a finger in a sports injury, and I wanted to find out how much it would cost for the checkup, and Xrays. The doctor's office couldn't tell me. They could give me a code for that procedure, that I could then call a different department and after giving them my insurance information they could tell me a possible range, but only if my insurance company actually paid their 80% (assuming I met the annual deductable, which I hadn't).

We talk about calories on menus as important so we can make choices based on health. Why can't we see prices on things as they are offered in medicine? When my wife had a baby last time, she needed some Advil to deal with post birth contractions. I just figured that is normal stuff. Later, only after asking for an itemized bill, one goddamn advil was $10. We didn't have the option of asking how much it would cost, we just assumed they were taking care of us. Seriously?

...ok...I think I'm done ranting...for now.[/QUOTE]
*sigh* Thing are a little different from the other side of the desk.

Depending on the office, the receptionist might not handle the actual insurance billing and just the patient billing, so they might not have access to your up-to-date insurance coverage, which is exactly what it sounds like. You'd be surprised at how many different plans there are even within the same insurance company, so it isn't exactly realist to expect them to know what kind of coverage you have and give you an estimate, not to mention all the complaints they'd get for giving the wrong one.

Secondly, every hospital has different policies regarding billing for stuff and a nurse or aid would probably have no idea what most things cost because they don't handle the accounts for the wings they work in. All they see are codes and not prices.
 
Here's an idea... Why not turn all hospitals into non profit organizations, subsidized by the federal government (ie tax payers). Based on a biannual physical you can get tax credits to reduce your tax base. Doctors can still operate a private practice for those who want to pay for "better" quality care. I think that's a fair compromise.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Going to another state for better care doesn't work for the same reason that moving to another state for job opportunites isn't possible for most people. I think it's fairly obvious that most of the red states would have shit care without federal funding and a region like New England wouldn't have as much of a problem, but there are a lot of people in the middle of the country that wouldn't really have an option.[/QUOTE]

I think he meant just taking a road trip across the border?

By Canada Care not working in the US, I mainly mean that our population is 10x theirs and therefore we would need at least 10x the amount of health care professionals. We'd have to bump up our end of that gap significantly.
Second, the wealth gap between citizens of the two countries is significantly larger in the US. The Canadian 1% isn't as significant, and their 99% isn't as large in actual number (obviously) so it's easier to play the "make the rich pay for it all" game for lack of a better definition.
Third, Canada's system works because it's have 28 years to get the kinks worked out. Going back to Zerk's notion of states handling health care payments through a centrally administered federal fund wouldn't work quite as well with 50 states vs 10 provinces and 3 territories. By default it will still be much more expensive to run this in CA compared to ND just due to population.
Fourth, Contrary to popular belief, private health insurance is available in Canada. Govt. Care is limited to basics and non-elective procedures. So if you're a dude that wants to be a lady (per dohdough's example a few pages back) that's either going to be 97% out of pocket (anasthesia or however you spell that and recovery care would be covered, but everything else is considered elective) unless you also take on private insurance.

For all those saying that we need to consider the nuclear option for US Health Care, I just don't get it. The main problem (as I see it) is two-fold. On one hand, insurance premiums are too damn high and on the other access to better premiums is tied to employment. A decent way to fix this would be to unhook insurance from employment and let it be sold by Geico and Progressive and their ilk. It opens "the market" to competition, gets employers off the hook (costs to employees can be offset in the same way they are now as an income tax deduction for medical costs up to 7% of your income [may as well raise that to 20% to make it better for employees]), increases the risk pool for insurers thus providing a better competitive environment, keeps payroll taxes funding Medicare/Caid, etc...
Yeah it's a free market answer but in this instance it actually has some pretty good legs.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Going to another state for better care doesn't work for the same reason that moving to another state for job opportunites isn't possible for most people.[/QUOTE]

Yah, I was talking about it as nasum notes. I'm in Oregon, would California, Washington, or Idaho have better prices? If so I'd gladly drive 8 hours to get my gall bladder removed.

Also, I think that having the public option be run like a business is not feasible. If they're going to take in the most vulnerable in the country, it's mostlikely not going to be self-sufficient without massive federal funding.

That's why I would exclude those eligible for free care, and make the rest of it run like a business. Otherwise it doesn't seem fair that the govt could operate at a loss, funded by tax payers, while other insurance companies have to make business decisions to hit shareholder targets.

Depending on the office, the receptionist might not handle the actual insurance billing and just the patient billing, so they might not have access to your up-to-date insurance coverage, which is exactly what it sounds like. You'd be surprised at how many different plans there are even within the same insurance company, so it isn't exactly realist to expect them to know what kind of coverage you have and give you an estimate, not to mention all the complaints they'd get for giving the wrong one.

But why can't they give me a list price. Tell me "the cost of an Xray is $45. If you want to know how much you would pay, go call your insurance company and find out what their coverage is."

I'm OK with that response. Send me to the billing department if you need to, but I should be able to make a phonecall and get an estimate for my procedure before I'm signed up to have it performed.

Secondly, every hospital has different policies regarding billing for stuff and a nurse or aid would probably have no idea what most things cost because they don't handle the accounts for the wings they work in. All they see are codes and not prices.

Perhaps I put too much emphasis on the office to answer my questions specifically. I could have been more general in saying I should be able to make a call and get a price quote, whether it's the doctor's office (which seems like the logical place to call, as I wouldn't call GM to find out what my local mechanic charges for repairs) or billing office, or other administrator's department. I don't think knowing what the costs could be upfront is an unreasonable request.

[quote name='nasum']I think he meant just taking a road trip across the border?[/QUOTE]

Yep
 
I think prices are so high in America because the consumer(the patient) is so detached from the actual purchase. The presents of insurance gives most people very little reason to inquire about or negotiate pricing since their out of pocket costs are largely predetermined by their insurance plan. The consumer also is far less likely to question whether or not that second or third test/opinion is actually necessary.

Also, the presence of insurance allows the medical industry to charge far more money than they could if it played a more limited role. If nobody had insurance, and just paid out of pocket, a hospital couldn't charge 10-15k a night for you to stay there because nobody could actually afford to pay that.

The problem is insurance isn't going away any time soon and has its place, especially for a long term and costly illness. I think what could help lower costs though is limiting the presence of insurance. I am a big proponent of HSAs(especially for young people) which have extremely low premiums but very high deductibles. If you are not sick in a given year you end up spending very little on medical expenses. If you do get sick you are still protected from going broke because of the limit on out of pocket expenses. But, what I believe they are effective in doing is getting the customer more interested and involved in the purchasing process. Since you actually have to pay for the test or visit, you are more likely to ask questions about the price and true necessity of the procedure. I also believe, we need far more transaperecy in pricing. As consumers, we should be able to easily find out how much that aspirin they are about to give us is going to cost (it's like 50 bucks in the er)

I use terms like customer and purchase rather then patient and care because the medical industry in the united states is a business, and as the consumers of the product it is important that we do not lose sight of what we are to the sellers--a profiting opportunity.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Yah, I was talking about it as nasum notes. I'm in Oregon, would California, Washington, or Idaho have better prices? If so I'd gladly drive 8 hours to get my gall bladder removed.[/quote]
Doesn't help in an emergency situation however. I'm sure as shit not driving 8 hours to get my fractured femur patched up.


That's why I would exclude those eligible for free care, and make the rest of it run like a business. Otherwise it doesn't seem fair that the govt could operate at a loss, funded by tax payers, while other insurance companies have to make business decisions to hit shareholder targets.
Death panels? You don't say.



But why can't they give me a list price. Tell me "the cost of an Xray is $45. If you want to know how much you would pay, go call your insurance company and find out what their coverage is."

I'm OK with that response. Send me to the billing department if you need to, but I should be able to make a phonecall and get an estimate for my procedure before I'm signed up to have it performed.



Perhaps I put too much emphasis on the office to answer my questions specifically. I could have been more general in saying I should be able to make a call and get a price quote, whether it's the doctor's office (which seems like the logical place to call, as I wouldn't call GM to find out what my local mechanic charges for repairs) or billing office, or other administrator's department. I don't think knowing what the costs could be upfront is an unreasonable request.

In a non-emergency situation this can easily be done. Can't recall the doctor here from a few pages back, but they know their billing codes and you can call your insurance provider to see what will be covered and what is left after your deductible.
When I tore my ACL I had the decision of getting it repaired or letting it be and getting a brace for activities. Surgery would have cost me the better part of $8k out of pocket when all was said and done, plus therapy, plus lost work time, plus pain meds, etc... The brace was about $1,250 or so out of pocket after coverage and the lost work time was roughly equivalent to a couple of extra long lunch breaks. So now I've got one of those crazy things like NFL lineman wear! Unfortunately it doesn't fit very well under my shinguards so I can't play hockey anymore.

The billing codes literally went down to getting an extra little rubber pad and having two spare straps on hand.

/csb
 
[quote name='berzirk']Yah, I was talking about it as nasum notes. I'm in Oregon, would California, Washington, or Idaho have better prices? If so I'd gladly drive 8 hours to get my gall bladder removed.
[/QUOTE]

Problem is the cost doesn't matter if it's covered by insurance.

I'm not going to drive to a cheaper state if my deductible is the same. Couldn't care less what my insurance gets stuck with. Which is caltab's point above.

But charges for stuff are absurd. My ENT and the hospital where I had my sinus surgery billed nearly $30,000 for it. Insurance only paid a fraction of that, but still was around $10K I think. I only paid around $75 in co-pays.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Problem is the cost doesn't matter if it's covered by insurance.

I'm not going to drive to a cheaper state if my deductible is the same. Couldn't care less what my insurance gets stuck with. Which is caltab's point above.[/QUOTE]

and this is a huge reason why the industry gets away with charging what they do, people just don't care about the price since they don't end up paying alot of it anyways
 
[quote name='nasum']Doesn't help in an emergency situation however. I'm sure as shit not driving 8 hours to get my fractured femur patched up.[/QUOTE]
No, it's definitely true. I used gallbladder surgery as the example, because that's something that isn't urgent (unless you're in the middle of a gallbladder attack, then you tell yourself you'd like someone to take it out with a chainsaw now). I would drive somewhere else for non-urgent care if it meant I paid less.

Death panels? You don't say.

I don't think I understood where that went. I was talking about making the government health insurance run like a business, but only including paying customers, not making the govt have to bring their profits down through free care, since health insurance companies couldn't compete like that.

In a non-emergency situation this can easily be done. Can't recall the doctor here from a few pages back, but they know their billing codes and you can call your insurance provider to see what will be covered and what is left after your deductible.

My process was much more involved. I'm not expecting my doctor's office or office administrator to tell me how much I would have to pay personally for a procedure, I just want to know the listed price. I can then talk to my insurance company to figure out how much is actually covered. I think I had to make 3-4 separate phone calls just to figure out how much a friggin xray is priced at, and even that was after someone at the insurance company not being too sure and saying something along the lines of I think it might be like "...well, you have insurance, so you don't need to worry about it, but I think it's somewhere around $X". There really isn't a central database with the medical code and price for that procedure at clinics and hospitals?

Whoops, and regarding dmaul's "The cost doesn't matter if it's covered by insurance" it absolutely does. I have a deductable. Will this procedure use up my entire deductable? If so, that's good to know. I have shitty 80/20 coverage (as does my family). If insurance covers 80% after my deductable, 20% is still a shit ton of money. Our daughter's birth cost somewhere around $5,000 out of pocket, after insurance, for a vaginal delivery, and staying one night.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Yah, I was talking about it as nasum notes. I'm in Oregon, would California, Washington, or Idaho have better prices? If so I'd gladly drive 8 hours to get my gall bladder removed.[/QUOTE]
Right. You have easier access because, and I'm assuming here, that you live close enough to states that would have a good enough healthcare system, whereas someone in like Mississippi, Arizona, or Utah would have little to no option. I'm not talking about your individual situation because I know you have options.

That's why I would exclude those eligible for free care, and make the rest of it run like a business. Otherwise it doesn't seem fair that the govt could operate at a loss, funded by tax payers, while other insurance companies have to make business decisions to hit shareholder targets.
But all government agencies operate at a loss at taxpayer expense?

But why can't they give me a list price. Tell me "the cost of an Xray is $45. If you want to know how much you would pay, go call your insurance company and find out what their coverage is."

I'm OK with that response. Send me to the billing department if you need to, but I should be able to make a phonecall and get an estimate for my procedure before I'm signed up to have it performed.

Perhaps I put too much emphasis on the office to answer my questions specifically. I could have been more general in saying I should be able to make a call and get a price quote, whether it's the doctor's office (which seems like the logical place to call, as I wouldn't call GM to find out what my local mechanic charges for repairs) or billing office, or other administrator's department. I don't think knowing what the costs could be upfront is an unreasonable request.
You're operating on the assumption that the left hand knows what the right hand is doing, but unfortunately, that's not always how it works. It would depend on how big the place was, if it was a franchise, medical software, access to real-time insurance information, office policy, and a whole convoluted mess of other things.

I'm not saying that asking the price is unreasonable, but that it's not as simple as literally punching the procedure code into a field and spitting out a price or looking it up in a fee schedule.


edit: looks like I'm late to the show.

edit2: The thing is that insurance companies don't set prices, only reimbursement rates based on precentages, level of procedure, and taxes. One office might charge $50 for an xray, another might charge $100, and some might charge $10. So it's no surprise that the insurance rep wouldn't really have a clue. And because of HIPAA, they can't go looking into someone else's account to see how much they were charged. In your particular case, you were probably dealing with someone that seems to just not know how much procedures cost.
 
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Not with the code and the price, but the doctor's office will know what billing codes they're going to use. Get those and call your insurance provider to find out what your costs will be based on those codes. It really isn't hard even in WI...

The death panels is more a joke than anything. When we're afraid that the govt is going to use death panels to deny care (since your doc is going to become a federale) yet we don't bother to remember that private insurance companies have a profit motive that sometimes involves denying claims.
 
[quote name='nasum']Not with the code and the price, but the doctor's office will know what billing codes they're going to use. Get those and call your insurance provider to find out what your costs will be based on those codes. It really isn't hard even in WI...

The death panels is more a joke than anything. When we're afraid that the govt is going to use death panels to deny care (since your doc is going to become a federale) yet we don't bother to remember that private insurance companies have a profit motive that sometimes involves denying claims.[/QUOTE]
That's why I laughed when the usual suspects started braying about death panels, as if private insurers don't already employ them through denying claims.
 
Yeah, the office might not know prices, but they will most certainly know the codes.

edit: Oh, and a $5000 ded is fucking horrible. It's a shame that they're even allowed to be sold.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']Right. You have easier access because, and I'm assuming here, that you live close enough to states that would have a good enough healthcare system, whereas someone in like Mississippi, Arizona, or Utah would have little to no option. I'm not talking about your individual situation because I know you have options.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I've only lived in California and Oregon, so I actually don't know what the health care situation is like much out of the Pacific NW. Heh, I can vouch for the ..."quality" of care in Oakland :p

But all government agencies operate at a loss at taxpayer expense?

True, but they usually aren't in direct competition with a private company (post office...anything else?) If the government created a "BHO" car brand to compete with BMW, then you could say that's unfair because they're using tax dollars to compete with a product, and could lose taxpayer's money just to beat the private company. Since no insurance company would be in a hurry to sign up poor people who couldn't afford care or premiums, it doesn't seem like the government should have to break even when considering them. Call it part of the acknowledged social safety net that we have in place. So take out the group that would make the govt health insurance company lose the most money, and compare the paying customer's business, to determine required operating profits/expenses.

I'm not saying that asking the price is unreasonable, but that it's not as simple as literally punching the procedure code into a field and spitting out a price or looking it up in a fee schedule.

yah, agreed. I don't know much about the ins and outs of medical billing, records, etc, it's just something that frustrates me terribly, and it seems like there has to be a common sense solution to it. I certainly don't know what it is though.
 
[quote name='berzirk']So wouldn't everyone just go to a cheaper state to have procedures done? If there was a policy in place to prevent that, then what happens if you're in a non-native state and you get sick or injured?
[/QUOTE]

I don't live in Canada nor do I know all the details of their system, but my understanding is that each province sets their tax rate. So, you pay for healthcare through your taxes, not at the hospital. The hospitals would still be required to stabilize anyone, regardless of what state they're from.


[quote name='berzirk']
In fact, maybe I don't understand the fundamentals of the "Obamacare" bill. The mandatory insurance purchase is terrible to me, and as someone who is covered by an employer, but purchases private insurance for my wife and kids, our premiums increased like mad weeks after Obamacare went through. It's kind of like when the banks started trying to screw customers harder because of ATM fee laws.
[/QUOTE]

How do you know that the premiums increased due to the passage of PPACA? Astronomical increases in health insurance premiums aren't new. That's been going on for years.

Could anyone that prefers a "free-market" system explain how those with pre-existing conditions should be handled? Also, should we keep Medicare for the elderly and disabled?
 
[quote name='berzirk']
Whoops, and regarding dmaul's "The cost doesn't matter if it's covered by insurance" it absolutely does. I have a deductable. Will this procedure use up my entire deductable? If so, that's good to know. I have shitty 80/20 coverage (as does my family). If insurance covers 80% after my deductable, 20% is still a shit ton of money. Our daughter's birth cost somewhere around $5,000 out of pocket, after insurance, for a vaginal delivery, and staying one night.[/QUOTE]

Obviously it depends on your insurance plan.

Mine doesn't have a deductible for most things (i.e. things that are medical necessities), just co-pays.
 
[quote name='chiwii']I don't live in Canada nor do I know all the details of their system, but my understanding is that each province sets their tax rate. So, you pay for healthcare through your taxes, not at the hospital. The hospitals would still be required to stabilize anyone, regardless of what state they're from.
[/QUOTE]

That's my understanding as well.

Necessary health care is totally universal. You pay your taxes and don't pay anything for needed medical care (non-elective procedures).
 
[quote name='chiwii']How do you know that the premiums increased due to the passage of PPACA? Astronomical increases in health insurance premiums aren't new. That's been going on for years.[/QUOTE]

I definitely don't have scientific proof. The fact that ours did, and two different co-workers with families on different private plans did at the same time either means it was collusion, or it was a result. Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't think it was a mere coincidence.


Could anyone that prefers a "free-market" system explain how those with pre-existing conditions should be handled? Also, should we keep Medicare for the elderly and disabled?

I'm hardly a good candidate or full supporter of a free market system, but pre-existing conditions shouldn't be excluded from taking on new policies. They should have to pay a higher premium, but it shouldn't be an outrageous rate over the normal outrageous rate the rest of the public pays. I don't know much about Medicare because I'm not old or disabled, but I would think we should keep those programs too...well, actually we should scrap it and set it up differently, by cutting unreasonable requirements, payment terms and conditions that the programs make doctor's offices abide by, but there should be free or heavily subsided health care for the elderly who can't afford it, or the disabled that can't afford it. Hey, this could be paid for by the government's new health insurance company that is optional!
 
The economic down turn has caused a lot of people's share of their premiums to go up.

Our actual premiums haven't gone up, but the portion I pay went up as the state cut back the portion they were contributing by a couple percent. Many private employers have done the same as their profits went down.

Do you know if your overall premium went up, or just that your month payment toward it went up?
 
[quote name='dohdough']Yeah, the office might not know prices, but they will most certainly know the codes.

edit: Oh, and a $5000 ded is fucking horrible. It's a shame that they're even allowed to be sold.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I termed it wrong, or you misunderstood? It's 80/20 coverage, so after the deductable, we were out of pocket $5,000. That means the hospital charged about...$25,000? Holy shit.

I think the deductable is $500.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The economic down turn has caused a lot of people's share of their premiums to go up.

Our actual premiums haven't gone up, but the portion I pay went up as the state cut back the portion they were contributing by a couple percent. Many private employers have done the same as their profits went down.

Do you know if your overall premium went up, or just that your month payment toward it went up?[/QUOTE]

Me? The monthly premium on my wife and kid's private insurance went up. My employer pays no part of their coverage. My employer fully pays my premiums.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Maybe I termed it wrong, or you misunderstood? It's 80/20 coverage, so after the deductable, we were out of pocket $5,000. That means the hospital charged about...$25,000? Holy shit.

I think the deductable is $500.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I completely brainsharted that one. I saw the $5000 figure and thought that it was the same shitty insurance as Whole Foods employees. It still shouldn't be legal though.
 
While the price on paper may be different, someone else is paying in the end.

The reason why meds are so expensive is because companies need to spend lots of money, research, staff, raw materials, to develop drugs, instruments, etc, to develop these things. Also, if you take into account the money that most other people in the world pay in taxes, the overall price of the daily life of a person would probably be more similar.
 
[quote name='daschrier']While the price on paper may be different, someone else is paying in the end.

The reason why meds are so expensive is because companies need to spend lots of money, research, staff, raw materials, to develop drugs, instruments, etc, to develop these things. Also, if you take into account the money that most other people in the world pay in taxes, the overall price of the daily life of a person would probably be more similar.[/QUOTE]
Actually, more money is spent on marketing than research. This was addressed in another thread, but most research comes from federal funding while private companies donate a pittance of the cost and take all the credit.
 
Prices are so high in America because of private insurance. Our per capita health care spending is the highest in the world and yet our access to care is garbage. This is because a ton of money is wasted on insurance companies as middlemen. This all goes away under a single-payer system, but of course this has never ever been seriously considered by the government.
 
Cost me $1400 without insurance to get 4 wisdom teeth taken out. How in the world can all the shit they used to do it cost $1400? I've known people that had to go to the hospital for minor shit and were charged $6 for ONE fucking aspirin. Yeah, aspirin, the same shit you can buy a hundred of for a couple bucks at the supermarket. Why is the most common medication so overpriced? What reason is there for that other than greed or subsidizing something else by overcharging for minor shit like gauze or a fucking TV in your room?

I fell and hurt my neck a while back, everybody said "go to the doctor" and I was like "that would bankrupt my ass." If I'm sick three continuous days my job requires a doctor note, which in order to get would cost more than I'd make for the missed day. A broken arm would literally put me into poverty. I've got a tooth bothering me right now that I know will need a root canal and a crown...that's $1800 without insurance from what I've been told. So I have to save up and fuck my stomach up in the meantime by taking 3-6 ibuprofen every day for months.

I wish it was like the olden days, where you just had to give the doctor a goat and shit was cool. You didn't need a loan or a job that didn't cut you off at thirtysome hours so they didn't have to give you health benefits.
 
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