Why Aren't We Talking About Union Busting?
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eldergamer
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[quote name='camoor']Are you fine with American CEO compensation?[/QUOTE]
What does one have to do with another?
What does one have to do with another?
Trancendental
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[quote name='eldergamer']What does one have to do with another?[/QUOTE]
I see them as issues of overcompensation. Both unions and executives have an extraordinary advantage in contract negotitions, it's sadly unsurprising that a sizable percentage uses this advantage to enrich themselves at the expense of their employer. Unless controls are put in place, it will happen again and again.
I see them as issues of overcompensation. Both unions and executives have an extraordinary advantage in contract negotitions, it's sadly unsurprising that a sizable percentage uses this advantage to enrich themselves at the expense of their employer. Unless controls are put in place, it will happen again and again.
It's how politics work, what can we say? People give someone a lot of money and support and they expect something in return. I don't like it, but I doubt it will ever change. It's really no different than voting for someone and feeling betrayed later when they're elected. You felt like by voting for them they somehow owed you something.
mykevermin
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Eh, more an "I'm mad that they aren't representing their constituents like I thought they would."
People always get mad that they aren't being represented.
People always get mad that they aren't being represented.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?scp=1&sq=the%20high%20cost%20of%20low%20teacher%20pay&st=cse
Good column on the high cost of low teacher salaries, how teacher turnover hurts education etc.
Some tidbits that show the absurdity about the claims of teacher's being overpaid made earlier in the thread. Average starting salary across the country is $39,000. Average ending salary after 25 years is $67,000. In terms of turnover, 20% of teachers in urban districts quit each year, nationwide 46% of teachers quit before their 5th year.
Good column on the high cost of low teacher salaries, how teacher turnover hurts education etc.
Some tidbits that show the absurdity about the claims of teacher's being overpaid made earlier in the thread. Average starting salary across the country is $39,000. Average ending salary after 25 years is $67,000. In terms of turnover, 20% of teachers in urban districts quit each year, nationwide 46% of teachers quit before their 5th year.
[quote name='dmaul1114']http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/o...=1&sq=the high cost of low teacher pay&st=cse
Good column on the high cost of low teacher salaries, how teacher turnover hurts education etc.
Some tidbits that show the absurdity about the claims of teacher's being overpaid made earlier in the thread. Average starting salary across the country is $39,000. Average ending salary after 25 years is $67,000. In terms of turnover, 20% of teachers in urban districts quit each year, nationwide 46% of teachers quit before their 5th year.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit...they're bankrupting our country...haven't you heard!!!:lol:
Good column on the high cost of low teacher salaries, how teacher turnover hurts education etc.
Some tidbits that show the absurdity about the claims of teacher's being overpaid made earlier in the thread. Average starting salary across the country is $39,000. Average ending salary after 25 years is $67,000. In terms of turnover, 20% of teachers in urban districts quit each year, nationwide 46% of teachers quit before their 5th year.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit...they're bankrupting our country...haven't you heard!!!:lol:
Yeah, the other thing that struck me after reading that is how full of shit javery is on this.
He's bitching about how highly paid and well benefited teachers are in his area, and generally ranting against teachers because of assuming that's the norm, while in the past he's complained that he can't get by on his 6-figure salary in that area! So teacher's get paid too much in his area, while his salary is too low!
He lives in one of the most expensive places in the country, all salaries are going to be higher there and teachers are still underpaid relative to their value to society.
He's bitching about how highly paid and well benefited teachers are in his area, and generally ranting against teachers because of assuming that's the norm, while in the past he's complained that he can't get by on his 6-figure salary in that area! So teacher's get paid too much in his area, while his salary is too low!
He lives in one of the most expensive places in the country, all salaries are going to be higher there and teachers are still underpaid relative to their value to society.
depascal22
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It's all relative. Latrell Sprewell turned down millions because "he couldn't feed his kids."
thrustbucket
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[quote name='dmaul1114']
Some tidbits that show the absurdity about the claims of teacher's being overpaid made earlier in the thread. Average starting salary across the country is $39,000. Average ending salary after 25 years is $67,000. [/QUOTE]
I may just be a cold heartless bastard, but I don't see a problem with that salary range as a baseline for K-12. Especially combined with summer off.
Where I live, the starting is closer to 28k (yeah that's bad) but within 5 years many of them are close to 50k.
What is it you think a K-12 teacher should make exactly?
Some tidbits that show the absurdity about the claims of teacher's being overpaid made earlier in the thread. Average starting salary across the country is $39,000. Average ending salary after 25 years is $67,000. [/QUOTE]
I may just be a cold heartless bastard, but I don't see a problem with that salary range as a baseline for K-12. Especially combined with summer off.
Where I live, the starting is closer to 28k (yeah that's bad) but within 5 years many of them are close to 50k.
What is it you think a K-12 teacher should make exactly?
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[quote name='thrustbucket']I may just be a cold heartless bastard, but I don't see a problem with that salary range as a baseline for K-12. Especially combined with summer off.
Where I live, the starting is closer to 28k (yeah that's bad) but within 5 years many of them are close to 50k.
What is it you think a K-12 teacher should make exactly?[/QUOTE]
Can't speak for K-8, but I know 9-12 salaries are based on years and education level. I don't see any problem with someone on the top of the pay scale(15-20 years i think, with Masters degree + 60 credits/Ph.D) making upwards of 100k. Especially in districts that boast great schools and real estate reflects that.
Where I live, the starting is closer to 28k (yeah that's bad) but within 5 years many of them are close to 50k.
What is it you think a K-12 teacher should make exactly?[/QUOTE]
Can't speak for K-8, but I know 9-12 salaries are based on years and education level. I don't see any problem with someone on the top of the pay scale(15-20 years i think, with Masters degree + 60 credits/Ph.D) making upwards of 100k. Especially in districts that boast great schools and real estate reflects that.
K-12 teaching should require master's degrees in my opinion. And that should bump up the salaries. I'd say the national average should be around $50k starting out, $100K or so towards retirement. With salaries higher in urban areas with high cost of living and a bit lower in rural areas where it's dirt cheap.
And again with the "summers off" bullshit. Any decent teacher is working 40 hours a week most of the summer with redoing lesson plans, attending training seminars and meetings etc.
And the higher pay should come with more accountability for teachers, thus giving them more incentive to work through the summer to make sure they are doing the best possible job in the classroom.
The key thing right now is it's a high stress job with a lot of pressure to have your students hit test scores, all the bullshit of dealing with parents and administrators etc., and just doesn't pay well relative to that. You can get lower stress private sector jobs that pay as much or more, and that's why the turnover rate is so high.
Improving our education is the number 1 key to the US having any chance of remaining the world leader in innovation and the world economy. It's not going to happen if we don't find ways to attract a lot of the best and brightest students to go on to be teachers. As the turnover rates etc. show, we're not doing that now. There's little incentive to go be a teacher vs. going to law school or med school or an MBA program etc. And even if you want to teach, going on to a PhD and working as a professor is going to be more lucrative with starting salaries ranging from around $55K to $80K depending on field, area and school, with ending salaries over $100K in most fields, and well over in some like the hard sciences. Of course it comes with more stress than a K-12 job with the publish or perish pressure and the pressure to land grants, so it is a trade off.
But in any case, the key to saving education is getting bright people interested in being teachers, and one thing that has to happen for that to occur is getting salaries up so they're attractive relative to private sector jobs.
And again with the "summers off" bullshit. Any decent teacher is working 40 hours a week most of the summer with redoing lesson plans, attending training seminars and meetings etc.
And the higher pay should come with more accountability for teachers, thus giving them more incentive to work through the summer to make sure they are doing the best possible job in the classroom.
The key thing right now is it's a high stress job with a lot of pressure to have your students hit test scores, all the bullshit of dealing with parents and administrators etc., and just doesn't pay well relative to that. You can get lower stress private sector jobs that pay as much or more, and that's why the turnover rate is so high.
Improving our education is the number 1 key to the US having any chance of remaining the world leader in innovation and the world economy. It's not going to happen if we don't find ways to attract a lot of the best and brightest students to go on to be teachers. As the turnover rates etc. show, we're not doing that now. There's little incentive to go be a teacher vs. going to law school or med school or an MBA program etc. And even if you want to teach, going on to a PhD and working as a professor is going to be more lucrative with starting salaries ranging from around $55K to $80K depending on field, area and school, with ending salaries over $100K in most fields, and well over in some like the hard sciences. Of course it comes with more stress than a K-12 job with the publish or perish pressure and the pressure to land grants, so it is a trade off.
But in any case, the key to saving education is getting bright people interested in being teachers, and one thing that has to happen for that to occur is getting salaries up so they're attractive relative to private sector jobs.
It's a way to get them more training on teaching methods etc. than they get with a bachelors. And thus to help ensure that we're hiring good teachers (though some bad ones will always slip through the cracks--hence the need for a reasonable accountability system).
High school teaching is much more important than college teaching IMO, so we need to make sure they have proper training as teachers. That's where actual teaching is done, while 4 year colleges are more just scholars sharing knowledge with students who are basically doing guided self learning. K-12 is where the foundation of knowledge, learning ability etc. is built, so it's crucial to have the best possible teachers in those positions to make sure it gets done as well as possible. If one doesn't have the knowledge and skill base, ability to self learn and a desire to learn by the time they graduate high school, they're most likely not going to graduate college as too many go straight to a university when they aren't ready and should be at a community college first.
As for education level, professors have the extra education for sure--but it's in how to be researchers, not how to teach. I never had a single course in how to teach during my studies for my master's or doctoral degrees. And teaching doesn't factor much into my evaluations toward tenure beyond needing to keep my teaching evaluation scores at a reasonable level.
Community colleges are of course different, and should be hiring people on similar basis to high schools--i.e. people who are trained as teachers. As those places are more extensions of high school for people who still need taught and are not ready to do the guided self-learning required at 4 year universities. Thus they need true teachers who can do the remediation needed, instill the desire to learn etc. that some people didn't get out of their K-12 education. While also providing 2-year degrees to people who have no interest in doing a 4-year program.
High school teaching is much more important than college teaching IMO, so we need to make sure they have proper training as teachers. That's where actual teaching is done, while 4 year colleges are more just scholars sharing knowledge with students who are basically doing guided self learning. K-12 is where the foundation of knowledge, learning ability etc. is built, so it's crucial to have the best possible teachers in those positions to make sure it gets done as well as possible. If one doesn't have the knowledge and skill base, ability to self learn and a desire to learn by the time they graduate high school, they're most likely not going to graduate college as too many go straight to a university when they aren't ready and should be at a community college first.
As for education level, professors have the extra education for sure--but it's in how to be researchers, not how to teach. I never had a single course in how to teach during my studies for my master's or doctoral degrees. And teaching doesn't factor much into my evaluations toward tenure beyond needing to keep my teaching evaluation scores at a reasonable level.
Community colleges are of course different, and should be hiring people on similar basis to high schools--i.e. people who are trained as teachers. As those places are more extensions of high school for people who still need taught and are not ready to do the guided self-learning required at 4 year universities. Thus they need true teachers who can do the remediation needed, instill the desire to learn etc. that some people didn't get out of their K-12 education. While also providing 2-year degrees to people who have no interest in doing a 4-year program.
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Gov. Walker proclaims State Employee Recognition Day
By Brian Lambert | Thursday, May 5, 2011
If they gave medals for raw chutzpah, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker would be the new Michael Phelps. You heard that he's decreed a State Employee Recognition Day and has begun handing out State Employee Recognition Awards? The, uh, irony has the AFL-CIO ‘s Mike Hall blogging: “[W]hatever you decide to call Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's announcement ... just weeks after his long and bitter fight to eliminate [workers'] collective bargaining rights, it’s hypocrisy at its worst. ... Walker’s action comes just days after he appointed the partner in a union-busting Milwaukee law firm as the new commissioner and chairman of the Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission (WERC). That’s the state body that decides disputes between state workers and management and now with Wisconsin workers’ rights eroded is even more important.” It’s kind of like my neighbor Bob declaring “Deer Appreciation Day” after poaching a couple bucks.
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I'm speechless. This guy just has a really weird sense of humor and it's hard to get a bead on him...
By Brian Lambert | Thursday, May 5, 2011
If they gave medals for raw chutzpah, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker would be the new Michael Phelps. You heard that he's decreed a State Employee Recognition Day and has begun handing out State Employee Recognition Awards? The, uh, irony has the AFL-CIO ‘s Mike Hall blogging: “[W]hatever you decide to call Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's announcement ... just weeks after his long and bitter fight to eliminate [workers'] collective bargaining rights, it’s hypocrisy at its worst. ... Walker’s action comes just days after he appointed the partner in a union-busting Milwaukee law firm as the new commissioner and chairman of the Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission (WERC). That’s the state body that decides disputes between state workers and management and now with Wisconsin workers’ rights eroded is even more important.” It’s kind of like my neighbor Bob declaring “Deer Appreciation Day” after poaching a couple bucks.
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I'm speechless. This guy just has a really weird sense of humor and it's hard to get a bead on him...
bread's done