I rented Lego Pirates of the Caribbean on the 360 this past weekend for my kids. They loved it. They got about halfway through it. We are at home now, and I really don't want to head to a store to purchase a physical copy which requires me packing them into the car and spending about an hour (and the store isn't even far). I see it is up on XBOX live to download. What are they charging? $40 f'n dollars. The physical retail brand new copy costs $20. Ridiculous. I don't download games except on rare live arcade occurences. This is why. Anyone who thinks going straight download is a good thing is nuts.
Why I refuse to buy any games on demand (or however you want to put it)
- Thread starter schuerm26
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humancondition
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Yup, no competition means higher prices. I'm with you on this
Problem with all digital games is that they don't properly decrease in price like their retail counterparts do and frequently the kind of situation you just encountered is commonplace. Since (I assume the publisher is in direct control) regardless of how many copies it does or doesn't sell they aren't using up any physical space and therefore have zero incentive to lower the price in any normal timely manner.
Digital distribution is dumb. Pure and simple. And those who blindly embrace it are even dumber.
Digital distribution is dumb. Pure and simple. And those who blindly embrace it are even dumber.
It's all in the implementation though. I think most people can agree that Steam does digital distribution right for the most part. Not to mention you can buy codes from other retailers such as amazon that activate on Steam. If games on demand was more like that, it wouldn't be so utterly terrible.
limelight022
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Personally I just want the damn disc.
STILL waiting/hoping/praying for a DeathSmiles IIX disc release stateside.
STILL waiting/hoping/praying for a DeathSmiles IIX disc release stateside.
[quote name='limelight022']Personally I just want the damn disc.
STILL waiting/hoping/praying for a DeathSmiles IIX disc release stateside.[/QUOTE]
Im the same way. I want the disc. I just have never really needed or wanted to just download a game for the ease of it until tonight when my kids wanted to play it. For $20 I would have done it. $30 for 2 LEGO games I would have done that. $40 for a $20 retail game pissed me off and now Im not going to even contemplate downloading ANY game that I can buy in physical form.
STILL waiting/hoping/praying for a DeathSmiles IIX disc release stateside.[/QUOTE]
Im the same way. I want the disc. I just have never really needed or wanted to just download a game for the ease of it until tonight when my kids wanted to play it. For $20 I would have done it. $30 for 2 LEGO games I would have done that. $40 for a $20 retail game pissed me off and now Im not going to even contemplate downloading ANY game that I can buy in physical form.
Trancendental
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[quote name='ihadFG']It's all in the implementation though. I think most people can agree that Steam does digital distribution right for the most part. Not to mention you can buy codes from other retailers such as amazon that activate on Steam. If games on demand was more like that, it wouldn't be so utterly terrible.[/QUOTE]
Yeah digital distribution is not dumb.
As OP points out, if they set the correct price point they could really make some green.
When it comes to the PS3, I'm just concerned with losing the games once the machine dies. That's the nice thing about owning the disc - if the machine dies you can still play the game on the next one.
Yeah digital distribution is not dumb.
As OP points out, if they set the correct price point they could really make some green.
When it comes to the PS3, I'm just concerned with losing the games once the machine dies. That's the nice thing about owning the disc - if the machine dies you can still play the game on the next one.
[quote name='camoor']Yeah digital distribution is not dumb.
As OP points out, if they set the correct price point they could really make some green.
When it comes to the PS3, I'm just concerned with losing the games once the machine dies. That's the nice thing about owning the disc - if the machine dies you can still play the game on the next one.[/QUOTE]
None of the services tie you down to a machine anymore. It's all about the account and portability is becoming a bigger selling factor.
Someone can break into my house and quickly steal discs that collectively cost me thousands of dollars. If someone steals my Xbox I can just call Microsoft and tell them to kill everything on GUID X if it connects again and just transfer my account and redownload everything, including saves, to a new machine.
The complaint here isn't really about price. It's about convenience. The guy knew he could get the game cheap at a particular place but the closest place, actually in his own home in this case, has a lousy price. Weep, whine. So this is really a bitch about children demanding immediate gratification with no acknowledgement that Dad isn't made of money. Dad is mad because the digital download service isn't helping him avoid teaching the kids about real life.
We've come so far since the dark ages of less than a decade ago when digital downloads weren't yet a factor.
If you were really on top of things you'd long since have acquired every Lego video game for no more than $10 each. At that price they're a pretty reliable investment for distracting the kids.
As OP points out, if they set the correct price point they could really make some green.
When it comes to the PS3, I'm just concerned with losing the games once the machine dies. That's the nice thing about owning the disc - if the machine dies you can still play the game on the next one.[/QUOTE]
None of the services tie you down to a machine anymore. It's all about the account and portability is becoming a bigger selling factor.
Someone can break into my house and quickly steal discs that collectively cost me thousands of dollars. If someone steals my Xbox I can just call Microsoft and tell them to kill everything on GUID X if it connects again and just transfer my account and redownload everything, including saves, to a new machine.
The complaint here isn't really about price. It's about convenience. The guy knew he could get the game cheap at a particular place but the closest place, actually in his own home in this case, has a lousy price. Weep, whine. So this is really a bitch about children demanding immediate gratification with no acknowledgement that Dad isn't made of money. Dad is mad because the digital download service isn't helping him avoid teaching the kids about real life.
We've come so far since the dark ages of less than a decade ago when digital downloads weren't yet a factor.
If you were really on top of things you'd long since have acquired every Lego video game for no more than $10 each. At that price they're a pretty reliable investment for distracting the kids.
[quote name='epobirs']None of the services tie you down to a machine anymore. It's all about the account and portability is becoming a bigger selling factor.
Someone can break into my house and quickly steal discs that collectively cost me thousands of dollars. If someone steals my Xbox I can just call Microsoft and tell them to kill everything on GUID X if it connects again and just transfer my account and redownload everything, including saves, to a new machine.
The complaint here isn't really about price. It's about convenience. The guy knew he could get the game cheap at a particular place but the closest place, actually in his own home in this case, has a lousy price. Weep, whine. So this is really a bitch about children demanding immediate gratification with no acknowledgement that Dad isn't made of money. Dad is mad because the digital download service isn't helping him avoid teaching the kids about real life.
We've come so far since the dark ages of less than a decade ago when digital downloads weren't yet a factor.
If you were really on top of things you'd long since have acquired every Lego video game for no more than $10 each. At that price they're a pretty reliable investment for distracting the kids.[/QUOTE]
What a stupid post.
It is about price. They are charging DOUBLE for something I will not have in physical form. That means they don't have to pay for packaging, shipping and whatever extraneous costs that are involved with getting the game on disc and getting it where it needs to go.
Would you be annoyed if you went to ITunes and your favorite bands new cd was DOUBLE the price to download rather than just head to Walmart to get the CD? Pretty sure you would, because it makes absolutely no sense as to why it would be that price.
You don't think my kids got a lesson on real life last night when I said you can't have it because I'm not going to toss $40 for something that I can get someplace else for $20 and then resell for $10. Think the only person that needs a lesson on life is you Epobirs.
Someone can break into my house and quickly steal discs that collectively cost me thousands of dollars. If someone steals my Xbox I can just call Microsoft and tell them to kill everything on GUID X if it connects again and just transfer my account and redownload everything, including saves, to a new machine.
The complaint here isn't really about price. It's about convenience. The guy knew he could get the game cheap at a particular place but the closest place, actually in his own home in this case, has a lousy price. Weep, whine. So this is really a bitch about children demanding immediate gratification with no acknowledgement that Dad isn't made of money. Dad is mad because the digital download service isn't helping him avoid teaching the kids about real life.
We've come so far since the dark ages of less than a decade ago when digital downloads weren't yet a factor.
If you were really on top of things you'd long since have acquired every Lego video game for no more than $10 each. At that price they're a pretty reliable investment for distracting the kids.[/QUOTE]
What a stupid post.
It is about price. They are charging DOUBLE for something I will not have in physical form. That means they don't have to pay for packaging, shipping and whatever extraneous costs that are involved with getting the game on disc and getting it where it needs to go.
Would you be annoyed if you went to ITunes and your favorite bands new cd was DOUBLE the price to download rather than just head to Walmart to get the CD? Pretty sure you would, because it makes absolutely no sense as to why it would be that price.
You don't think my kids got a lesson on real life last night when I said you can't have it because I'm not going to toss $40 for something that I can get someplace else for $20 and then resell for $10. Think the only person that needs a lesson on life is you Epobirs.
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[quote name='Nogib']Problem with all digital games is that they don't properly decrease in price like their retail counterparts do and frequently the kind of situation you just encountered is commonplace. Since (I assume the publisher is in direct control) regardless of how many copies it does or doesn't sell they aren't using up any physical space and therefore have zero incentive to lower the price in any normal timely manner.
Digital distribution is dumb. Pure and simple. And those who blindly embrace it are even dumber.[/QUOTE]
About your last sentence:
Are you including pc games digital distribution in this?
Digital distribution is dumb. Pure and simple. And those who blindly embrace it are even dumber.[/QUOTE]
About your last sentence:
Are you including pc games digital distribution in this?
anotherpoorgamer
CAGiversary!
I'm sure you're already aware of exceptions. In my case, I'm leaning towards the digital version of Beautiful Katamari.
It is $20 on games on demand, while $30 at Gamestop. Those are my only options for getting that game.
There is a chance that I'll get a disc only copy and I don't want to trade in any of my games at the moment. In that case, I'll go with the cheaper digital version.
I'm aware that there are other factors to steer away from digital like that feeling of seeing a game with its artwork on a shelf and the fact that it will chomp a significant amount of hard drive space.
Figure if I really wanted Beautiful Katamari now, then the digital version would be best. I agree with the original poster though, go with the cheaper option.
Yes, I know Beautiful Katamari is cheaper at Best Buy's online store, but it is sold out, and not available in any store near me.
It is $20 on games on demand, while $30 at Gamestop. Those are my only options for getting that game.
There is a chance that I'll get a disc only copy and I don't want to trade in any of my games at the moment. In that case, I'll go with the cheaper digital version.
I'm aware that there are other factors to steer away from digital like that feeling of seeing a game with its artwork on a shelf and the fact that it will chomp a significant amount of hard drive space.
Figure if I really wanted Beautiful Katamari now, then the digital version would be best. I agree with the original poster though, go with the cheaper option.
Yes, I know Beautiful Katamari is cheaper at Best Buy's online store, but it is sold out, and not available in any store near me.
[quote name='camoor']Yeah digital distribution is not dumb.
As OP points out, if they set the correct price point they could really make some green.
When it comes to the PS3, I'm just concerned with losing the games once the machine dies. That's the nice thing about owning the disc - if the machine dies you can still play the game on the next one.[/QUOTE]
Even if the price is the same as the physical version, there are still other drawbacks. You note one.
The other big one for me is not being able to trade/resell. I don't mind for $5-15 XBLA titles. So I'd be ok with it if full games drop down to $10-20 like the disc titles do sometimes.
But at $20+ I want ability to sell it on Amazon or trade it on Goozex. I seldom replay games and I'm not a game collector, so unless it's dirt cheap it's just not worth the money to me to buy it if I can't sell/trade it to recoup some costs.
As OP points out, if they set the correct price point they could really make some green.
When it comes to the PS3, I'm just concerned with losing the games once the machine dies. That's the nice thing about owning the disc - if the machine dies you can still play the game on the next one.[/QUOTE]
Even if the price is the same as the physical version, there are still other drawbacks. You note one.
The other big one for me is not being able to trade/resell. I don't mind for $5-15 XBLA titles. So I'd be ok with it if full games drop down to $10-20 like the disc titles do sometimes.
But at $20+ I want ability to sell it on Amazon or trade it on Goozex. I seldom replay games and I'm not a game collector, so unless it's dirt cheap it's just not worth the money to me to buy it if I can't sell/trade it to recoup some costs.
IAmTheCheapestGamer
Banned
I too think it's INSANE for the digital download versions of games to cost MORE than the physical copies would in store if I went and grabbed a copy used from BB/GS/etc.
But as has been said already, companies have no reason to lower their prices, since obviously there are enough people paying their gouged prices.
But for digital distribution to work as a viable alternative in future gens, at least one thing needs to happen. The companies selling internet access need to lower THEIR prices so people aren't paying out the wazoo for internet. I currently pay $20-25 a month for the lowest base speed Verizon offers for internet and I groan at paying THAT much.
But as has been said already, companies have no reason to lower their prices, since obviously there are enough people paying their gouged prices.
But for digital distribution to work as a viable alternative in future gens, at least one thing needs to happen. The companies selling internet access need to lower THEIR prices so people aren't paying out the wazoo for internet. I currently pay $20-25 a month for the lowest base speed Verizon offers for internet and I groan at paying THAT much.
limelight022
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Maybe its bandwidth costs and storage/server upkeep costs associated with it? I have no idea how much that costs though.
panzerfaust
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I'm all for DD as long as the service is reliable and clean. Cases where physical copies are cheaper have turned up, but usually DD is cheaper and more convenient. I agree that PSN and XBL overprice their DD titles, but anything on PC you can get regularly at half off.
The original poster is right on. For direct downloading to make sense, the price must be lower. Most people align their thoughts with the original poster, and this is why Steam has been so successful.
Microsoft has some good deals on Arcade games, but not full games. They do, however, discount Windows Live PC games. They must get with the program and discount older games on Xbox Live. A Steam-like summer sale in which games like Lego Pirates are $5 would be a smart promotion.
[quote name='limelight022']Maybe its bandwidth costs and storage/server upkeep costs associated with it? I have no idea how much that costs though.[/QUOTE]
Very little. Consider that streaming an HD movie on Netflix costs pennies. Big companies get good deals on bandwidth.
Microsoft has some good deals on Arcade games, but not full games. They do, however, discount Windows Live PC games. They must get with the program and discount older games on Xbox Live. A Steam-like summer sale in which games like Lego Pirates are $5 would be a smart promotion.
[quote name='limelight022']Maybe its bandwidth costs and storage/server upkeep costs associated with it? I have no idea how much that costs though.[/QUOTE]
Very little. Consider that streaming an HD movie on Netflix costs pennies. Big companies get good deals on bandwidth.
[quote name='Nogib']Problem with all digital games is that they don't properly decrease in price like their retail counterparts do and frequently the kind of situation you just encountered is commonplace. Since (I assume the publisher is in direct control) regardless of how many copies it does or doesn't sell they aren't using up any physical space and therefore have zero incentive to lower the price in any normal timely manner.
Digital distribution is dumb. Pure and simple. And those who blindly embrace it are even dumber.[/QUOTE]
Once again this misguided perception of the pricing of downloadable games because of an experience limited to consoles. The main problem with console digital distribution isn't that the games are downloadable, but that the pricing is so tightly controlled by the platform holder. Once you've purchased a 360 they control the distribution to you. Just look at the difference in pricing on a closed platform that isn't so tightly controlled like the iphone. And then look at the downloadable prices on an open platform like the pc where Steam, Amazon, D2D, greenmangaming, impulse/gamestop, and GOG are all competing for your money. The problem isn't digital distribution alone, it's digital distribution with a platform holder hold tight control over the market. In an open market you see great sales at digital distribution outlets all of the time.
________________
Digital distribution is dumb. Pure and simple. And those who blindly embrace it are even dumber.[/QUOTE]
Once again this misguided perception of the pricing of downloadable games because of an experience limited to consoles. The main problem with console digital distribution isn't that the games are downloadable, but that the pricing is so tightly controlled by the platform holder. Once you've purchased a 360 they control the distribution to you. Just look at the difference in pricing on a closed platform that isn't so tightly controlled like the iphone. And then look at the downloadable prices on an open platform like the pc where Steam, Amazon, D2D, greenmangaming, impulse/gamestop, and GOG are all competing for your money. The problem isn't digital distribution alone, it's digital distribution with a platform holder hold tight control over the market. In an open market you see great sales at digital distribution outlets all of the time.
________________
It is a competition issue.
But I also think PC game developers are desperate as console gaming has damn near killed off PC gaming, and has killed it off from being mainstream.
So dirt cheap pricing is one way to keep making money when the majority of gamers are playing on consoles and smartphones these days.
Add that with the lack of an open system for competition, and I just don't think we'll see Steam like prices on console game downloads.
But I also think PC game developers are desperate as console gaming has damn near killed off PC gaming, and has killed it off from being mainstream.
So dirt cheap pricing is one way to keep making money when the majority of gamers are playing on consoles and smartphones these days.
Add that with the lack of an open system for competition, and I just don't think we'll see Steam like prices on console game downloads.
I doubt much happens to people stand up and avoid paying the high costs associated with 'digital distributions' of available physical copy titles.
One would think costs would be significantly lower for digital copies, just look at things like packaging, transportation, storage, distribution and theft prevention costs all are next for a digital copy. That would only mean a huge profit on a game selling for $40 online and $10-$20 in store.
One would think costs would be significantly lower for digital copies, just look at things like packaging, transportation, storage, distribution and theft prevention costs all are next for a digital copy. That would only mean a huge profit on a game selling for $40 online and $10-$20 in store.
[quote name='schuerm26']What a stupid post.
It is about price. They are charging DOUBLE for something I will not have in physical form. That means they don't have to pay for packaging, shipping and whatever extraneous costs that are involved with getting the game on disc and getting it where it needs to go.
Would you be annoyed if you went to ITunes and your favorite bands new cd was DOUBLE the price to download rather than just head to Walmart to get the CD? Pretty sure you would, because it makes absolutely no sense as to why it would be that price.
You don't think my kids got a lesson on real life last night when I said you can't have it because I'm not going to toss $40 for something that I can get someplace else for $20 and then resell for $10. Think the only person that needs a lesson on life is you Epobirs.[/QUOTE]
Touchy little bugger, aren't you?
They aren't charging DOUBLE for anything. They're charging MSRP. If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, do so, but be prepared to do the driving or whatever else is needed to get that price.
The fact is, if the price had been right, you'd have been singing the praises of this wonderful new option that saved you a trip to the store. But instead you had to make a value decision and the kids didn't get their demands met. What awful lives they must endure. Child Protective Services should be knocking on your door any moment now.
You iTunes example is just silly. No, I wouldn't head over to Walmart, either. It's just a
ing CD. I'm not a child. I don't need any luxury good right now and cheap. If someone offers it for an agreeable price when it is convenient for me to make the purchase, I may do so. I may not. I'm not a slave to non-essential desires. The reason I have a backlog of over a thousand games is I can wait as long as it takes for something I want to play someday to turn up cheap. I'll likely never get around to playing them all but at the prices I pay it is a cheap indulgence.
Your pitiful whining reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
But I need a life lesson. Me, the guy who isn't driven to post a rant because he couldn't cheaply avoid dealing with his kids for a while. It boggles the mind to imagine how my parents endured having five kids in an era before video games. Or maybe it's just that today's parent are lacking something, like maturity.
It is about price. They are charging DOUBLE for something I will not have in physical form. That means they don't have to pay for packaging, shipping and whatever extraneous costs that are involved with getting the game on disc and getting it where it needs to go.
Would you be annoyed if you went to ITunes and your favorite bands new cd was DOUBLE the price to download rather than just head to Walmart to get the CD? Pretty sure you would, because it makes absolutely no sense as to why it would be that price.
You don't think my kids got a lesson on real life last night when I said you can't have it because I'm not going to toss $40 for something that I can get someplace else for $20 and then resell for $10. Think the only person that needs a lesson on life is you Epobirs.[/QUOTE]
Touchy little bugger, aren't you?
They aren't charging DOUBLE for anything. They're charging MSRP. If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, do so, but be prepared to do the driving or whatever else is needed to get that price.
The fact is, if the price had been right, you'd have been singing the praises of this wonderful new option that saved you a trip to the store. But instead you had to make a value decision and the kids didn't get their demands met. What awful lives they must endure. Child Protective Services should be knocking on your door any moment now.
You iTunes example is just silly. No, I wouldn't head over to Walmart, either. It's just a
ing CD. I'm not a child. I don't need any luxury good right now and cheap. If someone offers it for an agreeable price when it is convenient for me to make the purchase, I may do so. I may not. I'm not a slave to non-essential desires. The reason I have a backlog of over a thousand games is I can wait as long as it takes for something I want to play someday to turn up cheap. I'll likely never get around to playing them all but at the prices I pay it is a cheap indulgence.Your pitiful whining reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
But I need a life lesson. Me, the guy who isn't driven to post a rant because he couldn't cheaply avoid dealing with his kids for a while. It boggles the mind to imagine how my parents endured having five kids in an era before video games. Or maybe it's just that today's parent are lacking something, like maturity.
[quote name='dmaul1114']You'd think. But e-books often cost the same or more than the paperback.
Digital music is generally cheaper than CDs though.[/QUOTE]
That is a transitional issue. The Big Six publishers that control the bulk of book production for much of the world hate the idea of change. Especially change that gives more power to the writers and brings them closer to their audience. It is a nightmare to them that self-published writers like Amanda Hocking and John Locke are netting the kind of income that is normally reserved for the biggest names with huge PR pushes behind their releases. And those self-published Kindle titles are going for as little as 99 cents.
There is a lot of garbage but then the 'legit' imprints put out plenty of that too. (I recently encountered a series by a guy going by the name Saxon Andrew that were the reading equivalent of a car wreck. Horrific but you cannot look away. I'd like to believe he'd never have gotten published without the Amazon venue but I've seen printed books easily as bad.) The business is changing rapidly and the Big Six are grasping at straws. An increasing number of established authors are questioning their relationship with their publishers when they see they can go directly to Amazon with a new novel at $5 and make more money per unit than a hardback sale. And when the books are more affordable a prolific author has a good chance of hooking more readers to buy everything they've done.
Every time the cost of entry for a good e-reader device drops another $10, the control exerted by the Big Six slips a little more.
The change is happening. Since novels have a very low cost of creation compared to a game or movie, e-books are where the results will be seen first. Consoles with a single point of sales will be the last as they are least subject to competition. That aspect and improved ease of use could be a revival for PC games, as outfits like Steam have to compete with other outlets on the same platform.
Digital music is generally cheaper than CDs though.[/QUOTE]
That is a transitional issue. The Big Six publishers that control the bulk of book production for much of the world hate the idea of change. Especially change that gives more power to the writers and brings them closer to their audience. It is a nightmare to them that self-published writers like Amanda Hocking and John Locke are netting the kind of income that is normally reserved for the biggest names with huge PR pushes behind their releases. And those self-published Kindle titles are going for as little as 99 cents.
There is a lot of garbage but then the 'legit' imprints put out plenty of that too. (I recently encountered a series by a guy going by the name Saxon Andrew that were the reading equivalent of a car wreck. Horrific but you cannot look away. I'd like to believe he'd never have gotten published without the Amazon venue but I've seen printed books easily as bad.) The business is changing rapidly and the Big Six are grasping at straws. An increasing number of established authors are questioning their relationship with their publishers when they see they can go directly to Amazon with a new novel at $5 and make more money per unit than a hardback sale. And when the books are more affordable a prolific author has a good chance of hooking more readers to buy everything they've done.
Every time the cost of entry for a good e-reader device drops another $10, the control exerted by the Big Six slips a little more.
The change is happening. Since novels have a very low cost of creation compared to a game or movie, e-books are where the results will be seen first. Consoles with a single point of sales will be the last as they are least subject to competition. That aspect and improved ease of use could be a revival for PC games, as outfits like Steam have to compete with other outlets on the same platform.
smallsharkbigbite
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It's the same issue with consoles. There are huge cost savings from publishing, print, retail profit, etc with a disc version. But it seems Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony are determined to wipe out those savings. I've heard the retail cut is usually 25-33% of the game price but digital distribution requires up to 67% of the price to go to one of the big three. That is driving up the cost of digital games to the same price as store distribution. This is really holding the market back. I'm not completely against digital, but I won't buy digital unless it's A. my only option, or B. significantly cheaper than retail since I can resale retail.
It's a short term view by the industry that I feel is hurting their long term prospects. Sure charging a lot for digital may raise profits now, but getting into digital is the future and will help industry thrive in the future. It will allow:
A. More options for gamers. Right now the market seems stagnant with most of the games coming out being sequels because developers don't want to risk losing money on games.
B. It will allow the industry to grow if they lower price. At one time $60 wasn't unreasonable for a game. Now with competition with Ipad/tablets or smart phones, you can get quite a bit of content for free or a few dollars. Sure they may not have Zelda, but it's getting harder to justify paying $60 unless I know the game is golden, because I can get a bunch of content elsewhere for much less. At the very least it makes me more willing to wait until a game hits the sub $20 price point.
C. It gives an opportunity to bring in profits that were going to either publishers or retailers. It can be a win/win really. Bringing lower prices to the market and still pulling in more money by cutting out middle men.
It's a short term view by the industry that I feel is hurting their long term prospects. Sure charging a lot for digital may raise profits now, but getting into digital is the future and will help industry thrive in the future. It will allow:
A. More options for gamers. Right now the market seems stagnant with most of the games coming out being sequels because developers don't want to risk losing money on games.
B. It will allow the industry to grow if they lower price. At one time $60 wasn't unreasonable for a game. Now with competition with Ipad/tablets or smart phones, you can get quite a bit of content for free or a few dollars. Sure they may not have Zelda, but it's getting harder to justify paying $60 unless I know the game is golden, because I can get a bunch of content elsewhere for much less. At the very least it makes me more willing to wait until a game hits the sub $20 price point.
C. It gives an opportunity to bring in profits that were going to either publishers or retailers. It can be a win/win really. Bringing lower prices to the market and still pulling in more money by cutting out middle men.
[quote name='epobirs']
They aren't charging DOUBLE for anything. They're charging MSRP. [/QUOTE]
For recent games, sure, but for games that are long out of print and haven't been on store shelves in years it's a crock. There is no S "Retail" Price for a game no one sells anymore. Look at Kameo (or any other 360 launch title)... $5 or less at GS or Amazon, half/ebay, etc., but $20+ on Live. Sure, that's comparing used to digital but you're still getting a tangible product over ones and zeros. There's no reason a long out of print game no one is buying should be that expensive just for convenience.
Microsoft needs to be discounting Games on Demand games with their weekly deals.
They aren't charging DOUBLE for anything. They're charging MSRP. [/QUOTE]
For recent games, sure, but for games that are long out of print and haven't been on store shelves in years it's a crock. There is no S "Retail" Price for a game no one sells anymore. Look at Kameo (or any other 360 launch title)... $5 or less at GS or Amazon, half/ebay, etc., but $20+ on Live. Sure, that's comparing used to digital but you're still getting a tangible product over ones and zeros. There's no reason a long out of print game no one is buying should be that expensive just for convenience.
Microsoft needs to be discounting Games on Demand games with their weekly deals.
[quote name='epobirs']That is a transitional issue. The Big Six publishers that control the bulk of book production for much of the world hate the idea of change. Especially change that gives more power to the writers and brings them closer to their audience. It is a nightmare to them that self-published writers like Amanda Hocking and John Locke are netting the kind of income that is normally reserved for the biggest names with huge PR pushes behind their releases. And those self-published Kindle titles are going for as little as 99 cents.
There is a lot of garbage but then the 'legit' imprints put out plenty of that too. (I recently encountered a series by a guy going by the name Saxon Andrew that were the reading equivalent of a car wreck. Horrific but you cannot look away. I'd like to believe he'd never have gotten published without the Amazon venue but I've seen printed books easily as bad.) The business is changing rapidly and the Big Six are grasping at straws. An increasing number of established authors are questioning their relationship with their publishers when they see they can go directly to Amazon with a new novel at $5 and make more money per unit than a hardback sale. And when the books are more affordable a prolific author has a good chance of hooking more readers to buy everything they've done.
Every time the cost of entry for a good e-reader device drops another $10, the control exerted by the Big Six slips a little more.
The change is happening. Since novels have a very low cost of creation compared to a game or movie, e-books are where the results will be seen first. Consoles with a single point of sales will be the last as they are least subject to competition. That aspect and improved ease of use could be a revival for PC games, as outfits like Steam have to compete with other outlets on the same platform.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree it's transitional and prices are just up as the Big Publishers want to slow the rise of e-books as it's a huge threat to their profits as prices drop and authors can easily just hire their own editors/marketers and self publish.
I just figure game publishers will do the same. Game development costs are sky high so they don't want launch prices to come down from $60 even if it's digital and they're saving some money by not printing and shipping discs.
Prices may come down eventually, but not right away. And it will probably be even slower than e-books since there are only 3 consoles and lot of big games are exclusive to one console. Where as there are lots of publishers and lots of e-books platforms those publishers can put their books on.
For me, the bigger issues is not wanting to buy games I can't trade/resell. I don't mind buying movies or music as they have a ton of replay value. Games generally don't. Neither do fiction books--but at $10 and under I don't mind that one time fee to read the book. I just view it like buying a ticket to see a movie in the theater.
So, if digital games get to the $10-20 range regularly, I could view it in that light and be ok with that. But I would never be buying games at launch any more as I'm not paying $30+ to play a game once if I can't sell/trade it to recoup some costs later. I'm just not that in to games and would rather spend the money on other things if it came to that.
There is a lot of garbage but then the 'legit' imprints put out plenty of that too. (I recently encountered a series by a guy going by the name Saxon Andrew that were the reading equivalent of a car wreck. Horrific but you cannot look away. I'd like to believe he'd never have gotten published without the Amazon venue but I've seen printed books easily as bad.) The business is changing rapidly and the Big Six are grasping at straws. An increasing number of established authors are questioning their relationship with their publishers when they see they can go directly to Amazon with a new novel at $5 and make more money per unit than a hardback sale. And when the books are more affordable a prolific author has a good chance of hooking more readers to buy everything they've done.
Every time the cost of entry for a good e-reader device drops another $10, the control exerted by the Big Six slips a little more.
The change is happening. Since novels have a very low cost of creation compared to a game or movie, e-books are where the results will be seen first. Consoles with a single point of sales will be the last as they are least subject to competition. That aspect and improved ease of use could be a revival for PC games, as outfits like Steam have to compete with other outlets on the same platform.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree it's transitional and prices are just up as the Big Publishers want to slow the rise of e-books as it's a huge threat to their profits as prices drop and authors can easily just hire their own editors/marketers and self publish.
I just figure game publishers will do the same. Game development costs are sky high so they don't want launch prices to come down from $60 even if it's digital and they're saving some money by not printing and shipping discs.
Prices may come down eventually, but not right away. And it will probably be even slower than e-books since there are only 3 consoles and lot of big games are exclusive to one console. Where as there are lots of publishers and lots of e-books platforms those publishers can put their books on.
For me, the bigger issues is not wanting to buy games I can't trade/resell. I don't mind buying movies or music as they have a ton of replay value. Games generally don't. Neither do fiction books--but at $10 and under I don't mind that one time fee to read the book. I just view it like buying a ticket to see a movie in the theater.
So, if digital games get to the $10-20 range regularly, I could view it in that light and be ok with that. But I would never be buying games at launch any more as I'm not paying $30+ to play a game once if I can't sell/trade it to recoup some costs later. I'm just not that in to games and would rather spend the money on other things if it came to that.
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[quote name='epobirs']Touchy little bugger, aren't you?
They aren't charging DOUBLE for anything. They're charging MSRP. If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, do so, but be prepared to do the driving or whatever else is needed to get that price.
The fact is, if the price had been right, you'd have been singing the praises of this wonderful new option that saved you a trip to the store. But instead you had to make a value decision and the kids didn't get their demands met. What awful lives they must endure. Child Protective Services should be knocking on your door any moment now.
You iTunes example is just silly. No, I wouldn't head over to Walmart, either. It's just aing CD. I'm not a child. I don't need any luxury good right now and cheap. If someone offers it for an agreeable price when it is convenient for me to make the purchase, I may do so. I may not. I'm not a slave to non-essential desires. The reason I have a backlog of over a thousand games is I can wait as long as it takes for something I want to play someday to turn up cheap. I'll likely never get around to playing them all but at the prices I pay it is a cheap indulgence.
Your pitiful whining reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
But I need a life lesson. Me, the guy who isn't driven to post a rant because he couldn't cheaply avoid dealing with his kids for a while. It boggles the mind to imagine how my parents endured having five kids in an era before video games. Or maybe it's just that today's parent are lacking something, like maturity.[/QUOTE]
Pretty apparent that you don't have kids. This post was even worse than your first one.
They aren't charging DOUBLE for anything. They're charging MSRP. If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, do so, but be prepared to do the driving or whatever else is needed to get that price.
The fact is, if the price had been right, you'd have been singing the praises of this wonderful new option that saved you a trip to the store. But instead you had to make a value decision and the kids didn't get their demands met. What awful lives they must endure. Child Protective Services should be knocking on your door any moment now.
You iTunes example is just silly. No, I wouldn't head over to Walmart, either. It's just a
ing CD. I'm not a child. I don't need any luxury good right now and cheap. If someone offers it for an agreeable price when it is convenient for me to make the purchase, I may do so. I may not. I'm not a slave to non-essential desires. The reason I have a backlog of over a thousand games is I can wait as long as it takes for something I want to play someday to turn up cheap. I'll likely never get around to playing them all but at the prices I pay it is a cheap indulgence.Your pitiful whining reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
But I need a life lesson. Me, the guy who isn't driven to post a rant because he couldn't cheaply avoid dealing with his kids for a while. It boggles the mind to imagine how my parents endured having five kids in an era before video games. Or maybe it's just that today's parent are lacking something, like maturity.[/QUOTE]
Pretty apparent that you don't have kids. This post was even worse than your first one.
ElwoodCuse
CAGiversary!
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']But for digital distribution to work as a viable alternative in future gens, at least one thing needs to happen. The companies selling internet access need to lower THEIR prices so people aren't paying out the wazoo for internet. I currently pay $20-25 a month for the lowest base speed Verizon offers for internet and I groan at paying THAT much.[/QUOTE]
Access is a bigger problem than price. No console is going to be digital download-only as long as more people in the U.S. live within driving distance of a Wal-Mart than have access to broadband internet.
Access is a bigger problem than price. No console is going to be digital download-only as long as more people in the U.S. live within driving distance of a Wal-Mart than have access to broadband internet.
[quote name='schuerm26']Pretty apparent that you don't have kids. This post was even worse than your first one.[/QUOTE]
Pretty apparent that you shouldn't have kids. You don't seem to have gotten past that stage yourself.
Fess up now. You told the kids you going to download the game before you checked the price, didn't you? Otherwise you wouldn't be throwing a hissy fit over your failure to deliver the promised toy.
Pretty apparent that you shouldn't have kids. You don't seem to have gotten past that stage yourself.
Fess up now. You told the kids you going to download the game before you checked the price, didn't you? Otherwise you wouldn't be throwing a hissy fit over your failure to deliver the promised toy.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Oh I agree it's transitional and prices are just up as the Big Publishers want to slow the rise of e-books as it's a huge threat to their profits as prices drop and authors can easily just hire their own editors/marketers and self publish.
I just figure game publishers will do the same. Game development costs are sky high so they don't want launch prices to come down from $60 even if it's digital and they're saving some money by not printing and shipping discs.
Prices may come down eventually, but not right away. And it will probably be even slower than e-books since there are only 3 consoles and lot of big games are exclusive to one console. Where as there are lots of publishers and lots of e-books platforms those publishers can put their books on.
For me, the bigger issues is not wanting to buy games I can't trade/resell. I don't mind buying movies or music as they have a ton of replay value. Games generally don't. Neither do fiction books--but at $10 and under I don't mind that one time fee to read the book. I just view it like buying a ticket to see a movie in the theater.
So, if digital games get to the $10-20 range regularly, I could view it in that light and be ok with that. But I would never be buying games at launch any more as I'm not paying $30+ to play a game once if I can't sell/trade it to recoup some costs later. I'm just not that in to games and would rather spend the money on other things if it came to that.[/QUOTE]
There is a big difference between books and games. Most books, especially fiction, are the work of a single person. It's vastly easier for a writer to go the Indie route and make big sales if they know how to play the PR game and are willing to do the work. Diligence is the key. As one writer I know puts it, a single good page a day is a novel a year. That may seem like a slow pace but the majority of writers have a regular job that keeps the light on and food on the table between whatever their books earn. Some fairly big names depended on those day jobs to make a living as the fame didn't translate to fortune, especially if they had a family and needed to keep them under a healthcare policy. The writer I mentioned above has also told me how scary it was when he decided to try becoming a full time writer while the family (he has four sons) got by on his wife's salary from teaching.
This is why e-books are leading the charge. Indie game development is happening but it's going to take a lot longer before we see the kind of turmoil that is happening in book publishing right now. One man efforts are fairly rare, and getting a group together and coordinating a project can be tough if there isn't any money in it until it ships. Things get better when you've got a good track record but it's damn scary to forsake a steady paycheck even though you'd rather be a full time developer.
These things scale from the bottom up. The first personal computers were nearly useless toys suitable only for hobbyists. They mainly served to allow people to hone their skills and do some real products when the tech got to a low enough price. It was a new platform, the smartphone, that lead the big change in how games were marketed and sold. There was nothing to lose so risks could be taken to determine if a 99 cent game could be a money maker, and then games that were free to play with purchasable content within.
A pure digital download platform offers a lot of advantages. Vastly reduced capitalization is the biggest. Developers who could never afford to play in the retail market have prospered on phones and XBLA, as well as PC channels. By the time the next Microsoft console comes to market XBLA will be almost a decade old with lots of experience in what works and what doesn't. The next machine may not be an Xbox so much as an XBLA Box.
With the promise of no media production costs and no resale of used games, the market should be viable for much lower prices. Microsoft has to make a convincing argument to consumers and publishers alike.
I just figure game publishers will do the same. Game development costs are sky high so they don't want launch prices to come down from $60 even if it's digital and they're saving some money by not printing and shipping discs.
Prices may come down eventually, but not right away. And it will probably be even slower than e-books since there are only 3 consoles and lot of big games are exclusive to one console. Where as there are lots of publishers and lots of e-books platforms those publishers can put their books on.
For me, the bigger issues is not wanting to buy games I can't trade/resell. I don't mind buying movies or music as they have a ton of replay value. Games generally don't. Neither do fiction books--but at $10 and under I don't mind that one time fee to read the book. I just view it like buying a ticket to see a movie in the theater.
So, if digital games get to the $10-20 range regularly, I could view it in that light and be ok with that. But I would never be buying games at launch any more as I'm not paying $30+ to play a game once if I can't sell/trade it to recoup some costs later. I'm just not that in to games and would rather spend the money on other things if it came to that.[/QUOTE]
There is a big difference between books and games. Most books, especially fiction, are the work of a single person. It's vastly easier for a writer to go the Indie route and make big sales if they know how to play the PR game and are willing to do the work. Diligence is the key. As one writer I know puts it, a single good page a day is a novel a year. That may seem like a slow pace but the majority of writers have a regular job that keeps the light on and food on the table between whatever their books earn. Some fairly big names depended on those day jobs to make a living as the fame didn't translate to fortune, especially if they had a family and needed to keep them under a healthcare policy. The writer I mentioned above has also told me how scary it was when he decided to try becoming a full time writer while the family (he has four sons) got by on his wife's salary from teaching.
This is why e-books are leading the charge. Indie game development is happening but it's going to take a lot longer before we see the kind of turmoil that is happening in book publishing right now. One man efforts are fairly rare, and getting a group together and coordinating a project can be tough if there isn't any money in it until it ships. Things get better when you've got a good track record but it's damn scary to forsake a steady paycheck even though you'd rather be a full time developer.
These things scale from the bottom up. The first personal computers were nearly useless toys suitable only for hobbyists. They mainly served to allow people to hone their skills and do some real products when the tech got to a low enough price. It was a new platform, the smartphone, that lead the big change in how games were marketed and sold. There was nothing to lose so risks could be taken to determine if a 99 cent game could be a money maker, and then games that were free to play with purchasable content within.
A pure digital download platform offers a lot of advantages. Vastly reduced capitalization is the biggest. Developers who could never afford to play in the retail market have prospered on phones and XBLA, as well as PC channels. By the time the next Microsoft console comes to market XBLA will be almost a decade old with lots of experience in what works and what doesn't. The next machine may not be an Xbox so much as an XBLA Box.
With the promise of no media production costs and no resale of used games, the market should be viable for much lower prices. Microsoft has to make a convincing argument to consumers and publishers alike.
[quote name='antlp89']This is why the current digital content model will never eclipse physical media.
The only digital provider I can think of that does it right is steam when they have their blowout sales.[/QUOTE]
It's happening but perhaps too subtly for many to notice. Consider, how many XBLA titles in 2011 would you have expected to only see on disc in B&M stores if they'd been published a few years earlier? The number has been increasing steadily over the Xbox 360's existence, spiking each time Microsoft allows for larger binaries.
Steam is already at the point where they can offer any game that has a retail version. Not everybody offers their product on Steam but the PC is an open platform with more than one source of downloaded product. A game developer who doesn't offer their product through one of the major venues is doing themselves a disservice.
On a closed platform like a console or iPhone it is a simpler situation, with both pros and cons. Everything goes through a single venue.
I expect the next generation of consoles to continue and expand on a trend from this one. Both the Xbox 360 and PS3 had hardware resources reserved for the OS and platform functions independent of any running game. In the next generation it should be possible to maintain a full speed download regardless of what else the machine is doing. This will be critical when games measured in the tens of gigabytes are being sold as downloads only. The amount of time spent downloading before the game can be started needs to be minimized. On an entry level connection, such as a 1.5 Mb DSL line, there needs to be something for the player to do within fifteen minutes while the download continues. This may be an interactive manual rather than the game itself but the has to be something to create a sense of engagement. If the game can pull that off there is no upper limit on the download size long term. The limits will be reached much sooner on how long a developer can bear to continue creating more content for the same product.
Online multi-player during downloads shouldn't be a problem. The actual packet traffic for most online multi-player isn't anything you couldn't do with dial-up. The performance issue is latency. There doesn't have to be a lot of packets but they need to be sent and received ASAP.
The model for this hardware functionality would be a much lower cost version of the Killer NIC. In addition to its other feature for improving online performance, it is capable of running torrents on a drive connected directly to its USB port, completely independent on the host PC.
The only digital provider I can think of that does it right is steam when they have their blowout sales.[/QUOTE]
It's happening but perhaps too subtly for many to notice. Consider, how many XBLA titles in 2011 would you have expected to only see on disc in B&M stores if they'd been published a few years earlier? The number has been increasing steadily over the Xbox 360's existence, spiking each time Microsoft allows for larger binaries.
Steam is already at the point where they can offer any game that has a retail version. Not everybody offers their product on Steam but the PC is an open platform with more than one source of downloaded product. A game developer who doesn't offer their product through one of the major venues is doing themselves a disservice.
On a closed platform like a console or iPhone it is a simpler situation, with both pros and cons. Everything goes through a single venue.
I expect the next generation of consoles to continue and expand on a trend from this one. Both the Xbox 360 and PS3 had hardware resources reserved for the OS and platform functions independent of any running game. In the next generation it should be possible to maintain a full speed download regardless of what else the machine is doing. This will be critical when games measured in the tens of gigabytes are being sold as downloads only. The amount of time spent downloading before the game can be started needs to be minimized. On an entry level connection, such as a 1.5 Mb DSL line, there needs to be something for the player to do within fifteen minutes while the download continues. This may be an interactive manual rather than the game itself but the has to be something to create a sense of engagement. If the game can pull that off there is no upper limit on the download size long term. The limits will be reached much sooner on how long a developer can bear to continue creating more content for the same product.
Online multi-player during downloads shouldn't be a problem. The actual packet traffic for most online multi-player isn't anything you couldn't do with dial-up. The performance issue is latency. There doesn't have to be a lot of packets but they need to be sent and received ASAP.
The model for this hardware functionality would be a much lower cost version of the Killer NIC. In addition to its other feature for improving online performance, it is capable of running torrents on a drive connected directly to its USB port, completely independent on the host PC.
I wonder if they could implement a 30-day "trial" window of sorts. For example you buy the retail copy of a game, you have 30-days to decide if you like it enough to convert to a digital version. That way your retail copy stays in tact if you want to resell it and those that like a game enough to add it to the permanent collection could switch to the convenience of digital.
[quote name='Corvin']I wonder if they could implement a 30-day "trial" window of sorts. For example you buy the retail copy of a game, you have 30-days to decide if you like it enough to convert to a digital version. That way your retail copy stays in tact if you want to resell it and those that like a game enough to add it to the permanent collection could switch to the convenience of digital.[/QUOTE]
I expect they'll tell you to checkout the demo if you want to try it out before buying.
There may be a sort of pseudo-rental offering that will let you have unfettered use of the game for 24 hours after you first hit the Start button. (somewhat like the way they 'rent' videos.) There may even be a 'rent to own' option for those who end up buying a lot of days but have trouble committing. With automated accounting, what does it matter to them if you pay for it all at once or buy it cumulatively over a few months of playing on weekends? So long as they make the sale.
This is just one example of the sort of thing that is needed to make a download-only platform acceptable to a large audience.
I expect they'll tell you to checkout the demo if you want to try it out before buying.
There may be a sort of pseudo-rental offering that will let you have unfettered use of the game for 24 hours after you first hit the Start button. (somewhat like the way they 'rent' videos.) There may even be a 'rent to own' option for those who end up buying a lot of days but have trouble committing. With automated accounting, what does it matter to them if you pay for it all at once or buy it cumulatively over a few months of playing on weekends? So long as they make the sale.
This is just one example of the sort of thing that is needed to make a download-only platform acceptable to a large audience.
bread's done