WTF is up with the confederate flag?

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This is my opinion as a southerner, born in East Tennessee, where slave ownership was relatively low due to the mountains and less than ideal situation for a large farming operation.

I can completely see for many people that the confederate flag is an identifying symbol for them, whatever that symbol purpose may be. I do not think that most who fly it, wear it, or bumper sticker it think of it as a racist symbol. I also don't think that most of the people who do these things even remotely think about the states right's issues involved in seceding 100+ years ago. I think it is first and foremost a symbol of what they identify as their southern heritage.

Now having said that, I think the confederate flag, whether the fliers of it today think of it this way or not, will always have a racist bent to it. I think for one, of course, you have the Civil War to look at and most people identifying it with slavery...whether or not that was the cause of the war, it is all about perception folks. The second reason I associate the flag with racism is because of the reintroduction of the confederate flag to many southern state flags during the desegregation years as a symbol of protest. Many states still include it in their state flags, my current home state having diminished its presence on the current state flag; though it still remains on it.

This is just my opinion, and I'm sure folks will rip it to shreds before the day is done. So be it.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']That the Confederacy had basically nothing to do with slavery or racism and presumably you believe the southern states fought over "states rights" instead of you know the reality.

Oh and that slavery "wasn't about" racism to begin with.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Now, can you find a quote from me that said anything close to this? Because I can find the following quote from me:
Just like someone who chooses to ignore the role of slavery in the decision by the southern states to withdraw from the Union, it's understandable why one would fail to see why there's such a negative clout around the flag.
Click to expand...

It seems like I would understand that slavery played a role in the Confederacy if I'm commenting about those who choose to ignore it.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Now, can you find a quote from me that said anything close to this?[/QUOTE]

And to think I once gave you the benefit of a doubt and assumed that you were merely playing dumb, you have gone to insanely ridiculous lengths to try and minimize the importance of the issue.

All of your posts in this thread are deceptive and fact free attempts at apologia such as:

Also of interest is the number of people who think slavery is all about racism...
Click to expand...

I told you about Erhard Milch, curiously you have nothing to say about that.
 
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[quote name='"UncleBob"']Also of interest is the number of people who think slavery is all about racism... [/quote]
[quote name='"Msut77"']Oh and that slavery "wasn't about" racism to begin with.[/quote]

Am I the only one who sees the huge difference between these two statements?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Yeah, what I'm saying is that you don't need a symbol for yourself, you need it for other people as some means of communication. You don't use it for yourself, you use it to get some reaction from other people, otherwise their knowledge of whatever you're meaning to represent is irrelevant.

And with that in mind, if your symbol requires a footnote then it's not a good one.[/QUOTE]

Interesting how Orwellian the majority of Confederate flag detractors are in their thought and speech. To these detractors it doesn't matter what the symbol is or what it historically stood for, it only matters what the mainstream population perceives today. "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." South obviously hasn't been in control for a long time, so why should proud southerners have any say in the official meaning of their cherished symbols.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Am I the only one who sees the huge difference between these two statements.[/QUOTE]

You are the only one who sees any substantive difference because you are a dissembling ninny.

Again I point out that saying slavery isn't about race because a literal handful of black people were slave owners is like saying the Nazis were not anti-Semites because Erhard Milch was promoted under them.

Camoron:

To these detractors it doesn't matter what the symbol is or what it historically stood for
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Yes it does, you and your ilk are the ones ignoring the history.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']

I ...have gone to insanely ridiculous lengths to try and ...say ...I am ...deceptive and fact free. I am ...a cloud of BS ...and ...dumb. I am ...surprised ...I ...can even type. I really believe that ...I ...assert the same nonsense over and over with absolutely nothing to back it up.
[/QUOTE]

:whee:
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Okay, I'm going to propose a completely silly situation - bear with me if you will.

Let's say an episode of the Dukes of Hazzard was broadcast and the broadcast went into deep space and, somehow, was picked up by an alien planet full of humanoid life. Intrigued by the show, the people of this planet adopt several aspects of it, including the Stars and Bars. This single episode of DoH is the only thing of Earthen culture this planet has ever been exposed to. (There's a Star Trek episode similar to this).[/QUOTE]

I would be truly *stunned* if the aliens started displaying the "Stars and Bars" only after watching the Dukes. However, if they displayed the "Confederate Battle Flag", I'd be less suprised. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised at all.

Please let us note for posterity

The "Stars and Bars"
stars_ba.gif


The Confederate Battle Flag
confed_b.gif


Two separate and distinct flags.


When I was about 10, I visited my older cousin in college and I saw the Confederate Battle Flag hanging in one of the windows. I thought it was one of the coolest things and I thought in that moment that I too would hang such a flag in my dorm when I went to college.

So no, I dont automatically assume that the flag bearer is racist. Much like I dont automatically assume that someone who flies an NFL "Redskins" flag is a racist. However, I'd hope that the flag bearer would understand the connotations that the flag dregs up. They should know that some will have a knee-jerk negative reaction. If the flag bearer is willing to deal with this, then fine.

But for all intents and purposes, I couldn't care less. Hell, I even think, because of the historical significance that if those states want to show the flag on their government buildings that's fine too, as long as it's subserviant to the American Flag. I dont freak out that Six Flags over Texas flies the Stars and Bars...it's not done to be offensive, it's just history.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Again I point out that saying slavery isn't about race because a literal handful of black people were slave owners is like saying the Nazis were not anti-Semites because Erhard Milch was promoted under them.[/QUOTE]

Except that I NEVER, EVER SAID that slavery wasn't about racism. Never once. Here or anywhere else. You're making stuff up to fit your view of the world. I'm sure that comes as a complete shock to anyone reading this thread.

[quote name='hostyl1']
Please let us note for posterity
The "Stars and Bars"
The Confederate Battle Flag
Two separate and distinct flags.
[/QUOTE]

You are historically and technically correct. :)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Except that I NEVER, EVER SAID that slavery wasn't about racism.[/QUOTE]

You went to astoundingly stupid lengths to downplay its role. Mealy mouthed denials aside that is exactly what you were saying, did you find a problem with the Erhard Milch example or do you just avoid making an actual response because you realize what a silly ass you sounded like?
 
As a person from Mississippi i personally like the confederate flag and consider it to be more of a symbol of the south. I don't see it as a symbol of slavery, and wouldn't support it for that reason.
 
[quote name='Msut77']You went to astoundingly stupid lengths to downplay its role. Mealy mouthed denials aside that is exactly what you were saying, did you find a problem with the Erhard Milch example or do you just avoid making an actual response because you realize what a silly ass you sounded like?[/QUOTE]

You example is flawed as well. Do you really think Hitler's attempt to control Europe+ was *only* about racism?

At least I finally got you to admit you lied when you said I said "slavery had nothing to do with racism". That's a start. :)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Your example is flawed as well.[/quote]

Not at all.

Do you really think Hitler's attempt to control Europe+ was *only* about racism?
Click to expand...

It was an incredibly important part, anyone wishing to downplay it because of say Erhard Milch would be rightfully considered a fool or worse.

At least I finally got you to admit you lied
Click to expand...

Really? Was that before or after you admitted to smoking crack?
 
[quote name='pittpizza']Why do people fly it?

[/QUOTE]

It is a way to declare "I am an Asshole" without hanging a flag that has "I am an Asshole" written on it.
 
[quote name='niceguyshawne']It is a way to declare "I am an Asshole" without hanging a flag that has "I am an Asshole" written on it.[/QUOTE]

Are we talking about the Confederate flag or your excessively long sig?
 
[quote name='camoor'] South obviously hasn't been in control for a long time, so why should proud southerners have any say in the official meaning of their cherished symbols.[/QUOTE]

So I had to read back a little bit to get your actual position. One could argue that the South has been in control of the government for quite a while (up until about '06). If I were a proud German, could I hang a swastika?
 
[quote name='niceguyshawne']So I had to read back a little bit to get your actual position. One could argue that the South has been in control of the government for quite a while (up until about '06). If I were a proud German, could I hang a swastika?[/QUOTE]

His entire argument is a strawman, the confederacy defined itself as opposed to equality as did the southern states after. It is a lie to pretend as if that was somehow forced on them unfairly and it is only relatively recently that people tried pretending otherwise.

You will notice not a single one of these cretins has tried using any historical documents such as the Confederate Constitution etc. in their "arguments".
 
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[quote name='Msut77']Really? Was that before or after you admitted to smoking crack?[/QUOTE]
Msut77 vs. Msut77:

[quote name='Msut77'][quote name='UncleBob']What, exactly, is my position?[/quote]
Oh and that slavery "wasn't about" racism to begin with.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Msut77']You went to astoundingly stupid lengths to downplay its role.[/QUOTE]

Even if your statement about "astounding stupid lengths" was true (and I'm not sure anyone would really consider posting a quick message about black slave owners and white slaves would fall under that definition - I don't know how long it takes *you* to type a message, but not very long for me...), it directly contradicts your earlier statement that I claimed slavery wasn't about racism.

[quote name='Msut77']It was an incredibly important part, anyone wishing to downplay it because of say Erhard Milch would be rightfully considered a fool or worse.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. But anyone choosing to ignore the other reasons is an idiot. It's like knowing that the main ingredient in chocolate is cocoa beans, then wondering why cocoa beans aren't chocolate.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'm not sure anyone would really consider posting a quick message about black slave owners and white slaves would fall under that definition[/quote]

That would be the textbook definition.

Agreed. But anyone choosing to ignore the other reasons is an idiot.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by "ignoring". You seem to be using your own personal definition that involves focusing on the insignificant to the exclusion of all else.

Nazism wasn't all about racism or antisemitism, it was also about getting to wear nifty uniforms. Using your criteria I would be "ignoring" the "other reasons" by focusing on one instead of the other.

The only "white" slave (as opposed to white ancestry) I can think of off the top of my head was Sally Miller. How many others do you know of? Two? Do you really think it changes anything? That is what I was getting at with my example.

Then you act surprised when called a fool?
 
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[quote name='niceguyshawne']So I had to read back a little bit to get your actual position. One could argue that the South has been in control of the government for quite a while (up until about '06). If I were a proud German, could I hang a swastika?[/QUOTE]

Without going off on a tangent, economically the south has been poorer then any other area in America for a while. I don't agree that south has been in control of govt, but it would matter little if they did. For example West VA has had extremely influential representation in fed govt, are you going to tell me that they are in control of anything?

The Nazi thing again dude? How lazy, sloppy, and downright insulting to the people of the south. Read the damn thread.
 
[quote name='Msut77']That would be the textbook definition.[/quote]

I will send you $50 by PayPal if you can present me with any professional textbook used by a major university, college or school district that defines "astounding stupid lengths" as posting a quick 2 minute message within 24 hours of me submitting this post.

[quote name='Msut77']Nazism wasn't all about racism or antisemitism, it was also about getting to wear nifty uniforms. Using your criteria I would be "ignoring" the "other reasons" by focusing on one instead of the other.[/quote]

The nifty uniforms would explain the Hitler Youth.

Seriously though, yes, racism was a huge chunk in Hitler's plan. But if that's all history sees, then the history professors are all ignoring a fairly important thing:

Hitler did not wake up one day and decide he didn't like Jewish people - he craved power. Hitler used existing fear, hate and racism toward the Jewish community to rally his followers together toward a common enemy. We've done this in America (The Axis powers in WWII through Muslim extremists in recent times). Smaller groups have done this - they become more tight knit when they have a common enemy. Hitler wasn't a fool - he knew this. He created an enemy his people could unite against. An enemy he could lead against. He never would have been able to do this without racism - a very, very important part of his plan - and anyone would be a fool to ignore that. But, Hitler merely used his follower's racism and ignorance as a means to his goal - gaining power.

How many others do you know of? Two? Do you really think it changes anything?
Click to expand...
http://multiracial.com/site/content/view/460/27/
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html
http://www.white-history.com/hwr52.htm
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta...es/the-forgotten-white-slaves-part-ii-nehesy/

Please note, I do not endorse the view points of any of the above links. Knowledge is power - if what you read is inconsistent with what you believe to be true, please to research further.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']Why do people fly it?

To me, it is an implicit statement that says "I wish there was slavery!" Or at least "I hate this country and want to secede." Am I alone here? Am I missing something?

If we fought in a war with a seperate nation or people, and we won...isn't it at least a slight affront to victors to continue to fly the confederate flag?

I don't think people should not be allowed to fly it, I just don't really get it, that is all.

If the argument is that it is just a proud symbol of the south and Southern values, half the people that I see flying it aren't even from the fuckin south.[/QUOTE]

Pittpizza - since you originally posted the question (I'm hoping in a spirit of good faith) do you understand better now? I'd much rather talk to someone who is interested in talking history and intention rather then to a bunch of kids who see a chance to bash on the south with oversimplificaitons of the civil war or strawmen arguements involving Nazis.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I will send you $50 by PayPal if you can present me with any professional textbook used by a major university, college or school district that defines "astounding stupid lengths" as posting a quick 2 minute message within 24 hours of me submitting this post.[/quote]

I am sure if one of the publishers were to read the content of your post it would make the next edition.

Please note, I do not endorse the view points of any of the above links
Click to expand...

I doubt you even read them.

if what you read is inconsistent with what you believe to be true, please to research further.
Click to expand...

What I believe has to do with facts and reality, your links have nothing to do with either.

They for the most part have either to do with nothing in America, Ancient History, indentured servitude and "blacks" who were capable of passing, you should know of the fucking distinction because I mentioned it in a previous post.
 
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:rofl: That's really ugly.
And it's weird.. I never consider Florida as "The South". I mean, some parts of Florida, yeah..but Florida in general.. no.
 
[quote name='lolwaut']i dont get it either... i am unfortunate enough to live in the city that is home to the worlds largest confederate flag[/QUOTE]

hahahahaha....
[quote name='the linked article']To some, particularly across many Southern states, the rebel flag represents a rich heritage that includes fighting and dying for the Confederate cause during the Civil War. To others, the flag represents dark memories attached to slavery and racial inequality. [/quote]
 
[quote name='lilboo']:rofl: That's really ugly.
And it's weird.. I never consider Florida as "The South". I mean, some parts of Florida, yeah..but Florida in general.. no.[/QUOTE]

It's only state I can think of where the accents get more southern the more north you go.
 
My friend is from the south, and whenever I make jokes about how black people are thieves, or like watermelon, she tells me to stop and says it's rude. Yet, she has a confederate flag on a pole outside her house. I think it's a southern pride thing.
 
I just can't shake the feeling that the Confederate flag has as strong a tie with slavery, racism and states rights amongst those who fly it as rape, murder and pillage have among people who participate in "Talk Like a Pirate Day".

I think both these groups do it because it's a sign of belonging to their respective peer group.
 
The confederate flag is about Southern Pride now a days. I've lived in the southeast my entire life. As I said before there are African Americans, Hispanics and whites who fly the flag here. The flag pretty much stands for everything the south is - sweet tea, Waffle Houses, SEC Football, hunting, fishing, cold beer and dirty girls, jacked up trucks etc. Don't get me wrong though, there are hardcore rednecks who do fly it for the wrong reasons, but not as many as you'd think. Unless you actually live in the south east, you're just going to paint a picture that TV or media stereotypes of people in the south. I bet most people who think people fly it for that reason don't even live in the south. If you did, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
 
[quote name='Fanboy']I just can't shake the feeling that the Confederate flag has as strong a tie with slavery, racism and states rights amongst those who fly it as rape, murder and pillage have among people who participate in "Talk Like a Pirate Day".[/QUOTE]

Win.
 
[quote name='camoor']Pittpizza - since you originally posted the question (I'm hoping in a spirit of good faith) do you understand better now? I'd much rather talk to someone who is interested in talking history and intention rather then to a bunch of kids who see a chance to bash on the south with oversimplificaitons of the civil war or strawmen arguements involving Nazis.[/QUOTE]

Here's my problem. Do you ever see any of the people flying the flag engage in intelligent discussions about the flag? Can you go up to anyone that has it on their truck and expect any sort of coherent answer other than:

"It's tradition/Southern Pride."

"I like the colors."

"I have relatives that fought for the Confederacy."

We've already gone over the first two in this thread but I'd like to address the last one. I lived in Germany for three years and I never once saw someone fly a swastika because their family members fought and died for Nazi Germany. The only people that seemed to embrace the Nazi philosophy in the 80s were disaffected youth that thought that immigrants were taking all the decent jobs.

My experience living in Georgia was the same. It's not the doctors, lawyers, or business owners that are flying the Stars and Bars. It's the dude that works at McDonalds. It's the dude on welfare that longs for the return of white power only because it would be easier to find a job if everyone else was at the back of the line. It just added up to another excuse not to work hard and go to school. Uppity blacks took my job. Mexicans get all the construction jobs. Oh, woe is me.

You conservatives roast blacks for being lazy but won't ever declare that America has many many more lazy fucking whites than all the other races combined. The symbol for lazy 'Merica is the Stars and Bars. It's the wish that America can go back to a simpler time when any white man could get preferential treatment solely for the color of their skin. Now, uppity conservatives get their panties in a bunch about affirmative action and all those damn black single mother welfare cases while completely ignoring the fact that the majority of the people on welare are white.

EDIT -- Just to reiterate. I've lived in the South during the early 90s and didn't meet a single black, Mexican, or any other non-white that flew the Stars and Bars.

@pimpster -- The rest of America loves all the same things. Why does it have to be different because it's Southern? I love a cold beer as much as the next man but I don't fly the Confederate flag to say that I love sluts and beer. Eliot Spitzer loved those things too but I'm pretty sure he didn't try to get the Confederate flag added to the state flag of New York.

EDIT 2 -- I think it's funny that conservatives keep telling Blacks to move beyond slavery and the past and move to the future but we keep seeing something like the Confederate flag flown with such veneration and pride that it's sickening. I love how it's become "hip" to fly the flag in the last decade because kids are too young to remember the horror of Jim Crow, race riots of the 60's, or Rodney King. Then again, I'm just living in the past. Crazy how that works both ways. You wanna fly something that means Southern Pride? Don't get mad when I believe it means ignorance, racism, and slavery. Your heroes that you venerate by flying the Stars and Bars hated people of my color with such fury they wouldn't even let us use the same fucking water fountain. Go take your flag and shove it up your ass.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']Here's my problem. Do you ever see any of the people flying the flag engage in intelligent discussions about the flag? Can you go up to anyone that has it on their truck and expect any sort of coherent answer other than:[/QUOTE]
Can you go up to the average American and expect an intelligent discussion? Can you go up to anyone that is anti confederate flag and get any sort of answer other than.

"It represents slavery"

"It's about hate."

"It's the same as the swastika"

[quote name='depascal22']
We've already gone over the first two in this thread but I'd like to address the last one. I lived in Germany for three years and I never once saw someone fly a swastika because their family members fought and died for Nazi Germany. The only people that seemed to embrace the Nazi philosophy in the 80s were disaffected youth that thought that immigrants were taking all the decent jobs. [/QUOTE]
So the Nazi flag is different from the Confederate flag

[quote name='depascal22']
rant
[/QUOTE]
Any program based on race is racist, the US has fucked over alot of people over and just giving black people some money won't make it all better. It would be a better just to make sure all poor kids got equal oppertunity and education as better off kids.
[quote name='depascal22']
@pimpster --
The rest of America loves all the same things. Why does it have to be different because it's Southern? I love a cold beer as much as the next man but I don't fly the Confederate flag to say that I love sluts and beer. Eliot Spitzer loved those things too but I'm pretty sure he didn't try to get the Confederate flag added to the state flag of New York.
[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? pimpster said it was southern pride and southern pastimes(there is more to that than drinking beer also not all dirty girls are sluts.) People in the north and even in other countries have southern flags.

[quote name='depascal22']
EDIT 2 --
I think it's funny that conservatives keep telling Blacks to move beyond slavery and the past and move to the future but we keep seeing something like the Confederate flag flown with such veneration and pride that it's sickening. I love how it's become "hip" to fly the flag in the last decade because kids are too young to remember the horror of Jim Crow, race riots of the 60's, or Rodney King. Then again, I'm just living in the past. Crazy how that works both ways. You wanna fly something that means Southern Pride? Don't get mad when I believe it means ignorance, racism, and slavery. Your heroes that you venerate by flying the Stars and Bars hated people of my color with such fury they wouldn't even let us use the same fucking water fountain. Go take your flag and shove it up your ass.
[/QUOTE]
Yes it was the Confederate flags fault that all toughs’ things happened. Just ignore the fact that there was slavery before the was a south, that after the war there where Jim crow laws, race riot and lynching in the north, the north made law to stop blacks from coming north and some states in the north band black people altogether. Slavery under other names continued wherever it was profitable.

Then there is the fact that the northern army went on to genocide the Indians. Don't forget that the US had a ban on Orientals, enacted immigration because they thought immigrants were stupid. Enacted policies of eugenics, Let millions of people die in WWI because of isolationist policies, and only joined when attacked. Then repeated the process in WWII. Used its economic and military power to coerce third world countries into bad deal with US companies. Is one of the biggest polluters in the world. Has some of the lowest education rates of any first world country. Held detainees gitmo, used torture, wiretapped it citizens ect…

So by your logic no one should fly the US flag because it stands for, slavery, racism, selfishness, ignorance, pollution, torture, exploitation, denial of rights and freedoms, and genocide.
 
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[quote name='itachiitachi']So by your logic no one should fly the US flag because it stands for, slavery, racism, selfishness, ignorance, pollution, torture, exploitation, denial of rights and freedoms, and genocide.[/QUOTE]

Of note, the Klan and the Aryan Nation both use Ol' Glory as their official flag.

Perhaps everyone who flies the Stars and Stripes is a member of the KKK?
 
Thank you iitachi and Uncle Bob for making valid points. I can see your points about the US flag meaning the same things as the Confederate flag.

I also see that many people will use the same arguments against the Confederate flag.

The thing I was directing at pimpster was the Southern Pride is pride in the same things that all Americans love and adore. It's just that people from the South rally behind a flag that was used to as a battle standard for a secessionist country.

As for laws the North enacted to keep slaves out. Aren't we doing the same thing with Mexicans? Nobody wants an influx of uneducated people of a different color no matter what era we're living in. No, Mexicans aren't citizens but blacks weren't either until after the Civil War. There were still laws enacted but, like I said, no one wants thousands of uneducated people running around.
 
[quote name='depascal22']

As for laws the North enacted to keep slaves out. Aren't we doing the same thing with Mexicans? Nobody wants an influx of uneducated people of a different color no matter what era we're living in. No, Mexicans aren't citizens but blacks weren't either until after the Civil War. There were still laws enacted but, like I said, no one wants thousands of uneducated people running around.[/QUOTE]

cmon now, thats 110% different.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Of note, the Klan and the Aryan Nation both use Ol' Glory as their official flag.

Perhaps everyone who flies the Stars and Stripes is a member of the KKK?[/QUOTE]

This:
http://www.ozarkcraft.net/
Is an online store the KKK website sends you to.

If you can spot the American flag among the Confederate more power to you.

Ks-22.jpg


Here is another.
 
[quote name='Msut77']This:
http://www.ozarkcraft.net/
Is an online store the KKK website sends you to.

If you can spot the American flag among the Confederate more power to you.
[/QUOTE]
Does this count?
N248.jpg


Now, I'm not sure what "KKK" website you went to (I'm sure there's more than a few). Quick check at www.KKK.com (my first thought) links to http://www.christianbooksandthings.net/index1.htm for "KKK T-shirts and More". There's a second link on the site that goes to the online store you provided.

Now, it's interesting to me that you chose to show the second link without the first. But, as I said earlier, I don't know which KKK website you visited.

However, the first link is more interesting. Perhaps it's the GIANT US FLAG across the top of the page.

Again, the official flag of both the Aryan Nation and the Ku Klux Klan is the same flag that is flown in front of our official government buildings.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Does this count?[/quote]

So that is what one, one and a half vs. dozens of Confederate flags?

You are a one trick pony.

Doesn't grasping for straws ever get tiresome?

not sure what "KKK" website you went to
Click to expand...

Unnecessary quote marks are unnecessary.

Again, the official flag of both the Aryan Nation and the Ku Klux Klan is the same flag that is flown in front of our official government buildings.
Click to expand...

As near as I can tell both organizations have "official flags" and symbols that are definitely not the American flag which is a very distant third behind the Confederate Flag and slight modifications of it.
 
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[quote name='RAMSTORIA']cmon now, thats 110% different.[/QUOTE]

How is that any different? Stop thinking about countries borders and think about White America's attitudes about minorities.

Mexicans are fleeing to the north in search of better pay and opportunity. When they get here, they find that companies are more than willing to use them for cheap labor but will never support their advancement within society. Mexicans have found themselves to be second class citizens exactly like the blacks did. What happens when illegals get caught? They get sent back South to deal with the government. Luckily, they don't get beat, branded, or disfigured but they still deal with the crushing poverty of Mexico. They still pack themselves in cars, boxes, and anything else that possibly get the back across the border.

Have you seen the living conditions for illegals these days? 12 dudes stacked in a room. Simple meals made from the castoffs (cheap meat/tortillas/cheese). Blatant predjudice on the streets even though illegals just want to work. There are alot of similarities between illegals and runaway slaves.
 
[quote name='depascal22']How is that any different? Stop thinking about countries borders and think about White America's attitudes about minorities.

Mexicans are fleeing to the north in search of better pay and opportunity. When they get here, they find that companies are more than willing to use them for cheap labor but will never support their advancement within society. Mexicans have found themselves to be second class citizens exactly like the blacks did. What happens when illegals get caught? They get sent back South to deal with the government. Luckily, they don't get beat, branded, or disfigured but they still deal with the crushing poverty of Mexico. They still pack themselves in cars, boxes, and anything else that possibly get the back across the border.

Have you seen the living conditions for illegals these days? 12 dudes stacked in a room. Simple meals made from the castoffs (cheap meat/tortillas/cheese). Blatant predjudice on the streets even though illegals just want to work. There are alot of similarities between illegals and runaway slaves.[/QUOTE]

I don't remember reading about slaves having the opportunity to apply for legal citizenship or being able to walk into emergency rooms for medical treatment. I agree that immigration policy and attitudes have room for a vast deal of improvement, but IMO it does not compare to the social injustices perpetrated under slavery. After all slaves were running away from their plight, however these days illegal immigrants are doing anything they can to get into the areas of the United States where they can find work. That right there should tell you something.

EDIT: Let's also look at the symbology of so-called Minutemen - IE the vigilates who claim to protect our borders

minutemanFlag3.jpg


Holy crap - WTF is up with the US flag?
 
[quote name='camoor']I don't remember reading about slaves having the opportunity to apply for legal citizenship or being able to walk into emergency rooms for medical treatment. I agree that immigration policy and attitudes have room for a vast deal of improvement, but IMO it does not compare to the social injustices perpetrated under slavery. After all slaves were running away from their plight, however these days illegal immigrants are doing anything they can to get into the areas of the United States where they can find work. That right there should tell you something.

[/QUOTE]

thanks for fielding that one for me. id add more, but i dont think i need to for the point to be made.
 
I cannot read the massive amounts of posts, but I will still chime in. Forgive me if I say something that has already been said.

I am honestly on the fence about the ole stars and bars.

People on both sides of the argument seem to contradict their own argument.

"I view it as memorial and representation of individual state's rights"

"I view it as racist!"

"Well you should view it my way"

"no you should view it my way!"


I do however view it as trashy, but if you want to fly then by all means, but at the same time I do definitely see how someone can view it as racist imagery.
 
Okay so it seems that most people can agree it stands for three things:

1. Southern pride and values (only the good ones).
2. States Rights (Constitutional law idea of powers reserved to the states).
3. Racism (Slavery)

So it follows that (for non-southerners) if they aren't flying it for the bigoted reasons, they must be con law scholars expressing their obviously strongly held legal opinions. Every person I've encountered flying the flag up north seems like the con-law scholarly type. Yeaaaaaaaah. Right.

What most people seem to be forgetting in this thread, is that my query goes to people NOT from the South. And by "the South" I mean the confederate states only. Texas is not "the South"; Pennsylvania is not "the South."

If you're in S. Carolina and flying the flag, I get it, fine. Yet people ALL over this country fly it, without any ancestry or ties to the South whatsoever. And if you're trying to convince me that they're flying it to make known their con-law philosphies, you've got your work cut out for yall.
 
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[quote name='pittpizza']Yet people ALL over this country fly it, without any ancestry or ties to the South whatsoever. And if you're trying to convince me that they're flying it to make known their con-law philosphies, you've got your work cut out for yall.[/QUOTE]

Are you really confident in your statement that the people who fly it have no ties to the south "what so ever"? That's a pretty broad statement.

Also, you forgot "D" - "It's a rebel thing.". The big, bad, rebellious types fly it to show how rebellious they are. Even if they don't really know what they're rebelling against.
 
Oops, I was mistaken about Texas.

And the people I'm talking about are not "from the south" and don't have any ties to the South...why do they fly it if not to be bigots?

I have however, through this thread mostly, come to see that it seems only MOST people fly it because they're bigots; it appears many people who ARE actually from the south fly it because...(I guess)...they identify themselves as a Southerners first and an American second. Which is kinda sad too I guess, since they already lost the war and all.

MANY people in this thread, (IMO of course) seem to be DRASTICALLY downplaying the role racism and slavery serve in the symbol of the confederate flag. It does, at its most simplest definition, represent the union and symbol of the slave states. So to me, it says at least "I support the slave states!"
 
Personally, I'm not trying to downplay the role of racism and slavery in the formation of the confederacy or the association that racism and slavery have with the confederate flag.

Basically, what I'm saying, is that symbols only mean what we want them to mean. Obviously, because of this, stuff will get lost in translation, but if someone means for the symbol they display to mean "X", can someone else really say "No, it means Y and you're a Z because you're using it!"

Symbols are meaningless without knowing the intent behind them. It's like little skater punk kids that wear jackets with the anarchy symbol on them - do you really think they want the government to burn? Sure, they might like not having to go to school...
 
[quote name='UncleBob']
Also, you forgot "D" - "It's a rebel thing.". The big, bad, rebellious types fly it to show how rebellious they are. Even if they don't really know what they're rebelling against.[/QUOTE]

It's like all those guys that wear big white stetsons but have never done anything cowboy-ish or even been on a real ranch in their entire life. psh. Posers. :roll:
 
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