Xbox 360 doomed to failure before launch day?

pumbaa

pumbaa

CAGiversary!
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000020044588/

The more I think about it the more this guy makes sense. I'm buying the Xbox 360 because they've got BioWare, Rare, and Team Ninja. But that doesn't mean the thing is going to succeed.

The difference here is that Microsoft has more than enough money to fund a failure and fix it (see Microsoft Bob). That being said, the guy brings up a good point.

I have the least about of Xbox game out of all the console... the number would be SEVERLY cut down if I didn't buy multi-platform titles on Xbox because its the most powerful. 360 isn't going to have that luxury. Nintendo has its franchises, its rabid fanbase (see Revolution Conspiracy theory thread) and amazing in house developers... Sony has the backing of almost every single 3rd party developer... big and small... Microsofts answer to this? It's unclear... Xbox Live is going to suddenly blwo up in numbers... The next generation is going to be INTERESTING.
 
That's nice and all but Xbox has a good hold on the casual gamer market that Dreamcast didn't . Mainly because of halo. I know plenty of people who only play halo, and that's it. Not because they're obsessed with halo but because that's the only video game that got them... well to play.
 
[quote name='Zoglog']That's nice and all but Xbox has a good hold on the casual gamer market that Dreamcast didn't . Mainly because of halo. I know plenty of people who only play halo, and that's it. Not because they're obsessed with halo but because that's the only video game that got them... well to play.[/QUOTE]

I really should take out all Dreamcast references for that post... it takes away from the meat of the argument. In fact I may just do as much.
 
Well as much as I love the XB this gen, I might find it my least favorite next-gen. Nintendo of course for the 1st party games, and Sony because it'll probably be the best system for multi-platform gaming. I'm not an XBL gamer anymore, so that's one less thing the XB has going for it.

I'm sure i'm going to buy them all anyways though
 
The casual Xbox gamer who only plays Halo is probably Microsoft's worst nightmare. They lost money on the console sale and it wasn't reimbursed with the single software sale. I know a few people who only play Halo 2 and have stopped buying other games.
 
EA sports is dooming every launch with their shitty games. No one wants to play the fifteenth damn Tiger Woods game.
 
I think the PS2 got a lot of third-party support because it launched first. XBOX 360 now had that luxury so that can cause a lot of third-party support. XBOX 360 and PS3 are at least comparable in power. Since the 360 is launching first it will probably have more buyers at launch, thus creating a huge user base and therefore a huge market for third-party developers. The XBOX has the least good exclusives this generation IMO, but that could change in the next.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I think XBOX 360 is looking to have one of the best launches I've ever seen. I looks to have at least 4 great games (XBOX had 2 at launch, PS2 had none, GC had 1 a month after launch, N64 had 1, PS had 1, etc..).
 
I wasnt planning on getting an 360 but Gears of War looks really good. When I look at XBOX now I dont see a single game that I want that I cant get on another system. I own both Halo and KOTOR on the PC and there are no other games out there that really catch my interest. Gears of War is the first thing to come oout on an XBOX system that I even took a second glance at. Im not sure why, its not that I hate XBOX...
 
[quote name='PenguinMaster']I think the PS2 got a lot of third-party support because it launched first. XBOX 360 now had that luxury so that can cause a lot of third-party support. XBOX 360 and PS3 are at least comparable in power. Since the 360 is launching first it will probably have more buyers at launch, thus creating a huge user base and therefore a huge market for third-party developers. The XBOX has the least good exclusives this generation IMO, but that could change in the next.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I think XBOX 360 is looking to have one of the best launches I've ever seen. I looks to have at least 4 great games (XBOX had 2 at launch, PS2 had none, GC had 1 a month after launch, N64 had 1, PS had 1, etc..).[/QUOTE]

No... I think Sony got 3rd party support because they took the previous generation by storm. PS1 sold amazingly well, and PS2 essentially rode that wave of success. I suspect that Microsoft will not have the upper hand when it comes to 3rd party developers... Sony is still the one to beat because of decisively "winning" this generation in all 3 important continents. Remember... Xbox may be in "2nd" in the US... but its laughable in Japan... a very important area... developer wise.
 
Microsoft is making all the rite move believe it or not, and thats the only choice it has, if it wants to top Sony in the next gen... & it's all about launching 6 months before Sony... built huge userbase to attract 3rd party developer...

I really feel 360 is goin to be rushed & a sloppy launch, microsoft has alot to do & pull off, to make this decent... But this is all to built a huge user base... and 6 months is hella alot of time...

We could see a 3 Million (or More) userbase worldwide in 6 months...

IMO Microsoft is holding the cards in the Gen...
 
While I doubt msft will take sony out of the top spot this upcoming generation, to say it is doomed is a stretch. I swear I have read in 2 or 3 different gaming magz, that msft will be cutting royalties a lot, as well as several big third party companies will not have to pay any royalty fee's to msft. If that is the case, and you throw xna in on top of that, third party support will not be a problem from msft
 
For starters, no. There is basically no chance of it failing. The most technologically advanced "best" system has NEVER won a console war. From the atari 5200 through to the current gen, somehow an inferior system has come out on top. And Microsoft is not Sega. They can afford losses that Sega could not. They will most likely be 200-300 dollars cheaper than PS3, unless Sony takes a huge loss, which they are not known to do. If the gap is only $100, Sony is in a much better place, but I can almost guarentee that MS will take big losses to make it wider than that. Also, Xbox 360 is all about gaming, in one way or another. Sony has stated that the PS3 is not a gaming platform. Well WTF is it then? Sony's arrogance has to catch up to them sometime. And yes, the PS3 will be a far superior system, but I will have to see more than pre-rendered video to spec before I believe I can actually play games that look like Killzone 2 and Motor Storm. Gears of War is here, exists, and looks awesome, and is, gasp, a game, not a trailer. I just hope sony remembers the last $600 system. Anyone have a Neo Geo? Exactly. Microsoft, especially J. Allard is making asses of themselves all over the place, but once you ignore the bs, they are actually putting out a good product. All games with custom soundtracks and online play (at least in some form). I don't remember that annoucement at the press conference for sony. And for anyone thinking "Big deal", custom soundtracks for EA games will piss off EA, and that is a brazen move. I personally feel that the PS3 will dominate Japan and the 360 (despite the god awful name) will win here. Remember, Xbox is better for almost every multi-platform game, but a grand total of 1 game (mercenaries) sold more xbox copies than PS2. If they can really produce games that look like that or if blu ray catches on (which I really don't think it will-too few people own HDTVs at this point), the PS3 has a chance to win. I guess we'll see. I just really don't think americans are ready to spend $500-600, or even maybe more, on a console. The fact that it blows away what their PC can do probably won't matter. And the reason the PS2 crushed the Dreamcast is very simple. At release, the PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market period and the Dreamcast was cd-rom based. Millions of people in Japan and America bought it to play DVDs, they bought some games because they already had the system. And for the record, Americans buy systems for those "shitty" EA sports games. MANY "gamers" own Halo, Halo 2, and 30 sports games. Sad commentary on the USA, but that's just how it is. That is changing, but very slowly. And no, the PS3 and the 360 are no where near comparable in power. The PS3 has literally twice the core processing power with a vastly superior GPU and an ungodly large GPU-CPU pipeline. The only question is: How long will it take developers to make games that can actually benefit from that power? That right there will probably decide the winner of the next war. And no, Nintendo is not a player, they haven't been since the SNES (and they lost that war in the end) and that is not going to change here. They have their niche, they will maintain their niche, and that is that. And on a personal note, I just prefer the Xbox controllers, especially the old ones. I like the triggers and I have ever since the Saturn NIGHTS controller. The PS3 controller is based on an old PS1 third-party controller that was annoying to use and didn't sell well. The other big blow to Dreamcast was EA choosing not to develop for them. The only company that has sided with sony thus far is faction 5, and does anyone besides the most hardcore Star Wars fanboys give a crap? They will both do well (unless the PS3 is a grand or something completely stupid like that), gaming as a whole will grow (1 billion users may sound stupid, but remember, there are over 300 million gamers in china alone), and we will see enough exclusive games on all systems to keep them all alive. There will be a winner, but it will probably be like the 16-bit era. Sega actually won in the end, but Nintendo wasn't exactly hurting.
 
The article isn't predicting "doom", its just saying that 360 doesn't have enough of an (or any) advantage over PS3 to gain marketshare, except for XBL. The author also predicts that they'll fail in their attempt to go after the casual or non gamer, because the casual or non gamer does not buy a dedicated game box.

The author suggests that they should leverage Live and go after its traditional audience. Which they are, but I believe that 360 will have some features that are attractive to the more casual gamer, like the media center functionality, voice/video chat, the online community and customization features, and other content on Live (such as the football game they showed at e3, TV shows, movies, or music on demand, or the rumored XM radio).

Even if the author's predictions pan out, 360 will maintain its marketshare and do fine, 2nd place isn't the end of the world. But it does make a good point, MS isn't content to go after the core audience of gamers. Just like how they wanted a computer on every desk, they want a console in every living room. They've decided that if they're going to win, this is how they'll do it, by not being just a game box, but by being the hub of your entertainment center.
 
Any mention of the failure of the Dreamcast (a fine machine, don't get me wrong), relative a possible failure by X360, which does not include the dreadful distribution plan by Sega (I believe only 6 retailers were allowed to carry the system at launch) is a flawed analysis.

CTL
 
I found the article to be so muddled as to lack a real point. There are certain people who freak every time a console maker speaks of trying to broaden their market by thinking it means their existing audience will be scorned. Idiocy. As if the announced intent was to reach new consumers instead of their existing ones, rather than in addition to those existing customers.

Nintendo has been making noises about casual gamers for quite a while now. Surely they're doomed. The core audience will boycott if they're forced to keep company with the lowly casual gamer.
 
[quote name='soulwish2003']Doomed - I donno... IMHO, PS3 will destroy it - sales wise.[/QUOTE]

well thats obvious, since all the playstation zombies will be waiting around for load times while they eat brains. no matter what they put it in this thing, it will be a loader again and showing those fake vids at E3 should be enough to make you realize sony is the original M$. the 360 will do fine. Ill buy it on launch. yay me.
 
There is no way Xbox 360 will fail because Microsoft has been marketing it to the mainstream audiences and not just gamers something Nintendo often fails to do. The Xbox has developed a reputation as being the gaming/entertainment system for adults (mature games) which is what's favored by the market right now. I'm not saying this games are better because of it but it's just a fact, a rated M game will sell better in todays market when compared to an E game (Sports games not included).

Plus, Microsoft has some pretty deep pockets and they are here to stay. Xbox 360 is going to be out at 6 months before the PS3 and this is a big deal to adults who are obsessed with getting the latest and greatest gadgets out. In my area (North Jersey) Xbox 360 is reserved out in all the gaming stores (EB/ GS). So based on that I would have to say it will do pretty well. The Xbox/Xbox360 might not appeal to everyone but it does appeal to a lot of "casual gamers" the type that Big N will never appeal to.
 
For starters, no. There is basically no chance of it failing.
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There's always a chance.

The most technologically advanced "best" system has NEVER won a console war. From the atari 5200 through to the current gen, somehow an inferior system has come out on top.
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Really? Are you sure? What about the SNES or the PS1?

And Microsoft is not Sega. They can afford losses that Sega could not. They will most likely be 200-300 dollars cheaper than PS3, unless Sony takes a huge loss, which they are not known to do. If the gap is only $100, Sony is in a much better place, but I can almost guarentee that MS will take big losses to make it wider than that.
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There's no way in a billion years the gap will be more than $100. It just won't. whatever Microsoft launches at, Sony will be sure to take notice and price accordingly.

Also, Xbox 360 is all about gaming, in one way or another. Sony has stated that the PS3 is not a gaming platform. Well WTF is it then? Sony's arrogance has to catch up to them sometime.
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The Xbox 360 seems to be as much about everything else as it is about gaming. There is a removable hard drive, it will play DVDs, it will connect to the internet, etc. (not that any of this is bad - I'm looking forward to seing how it all works).

And yes, the PS3 will be a far superior system, but I will have to see more than pre-rendered video to spec before I believe I can actually play games that look like Killzone 2 and Motor Storm. Gears of War is here, exists, and looks awesome, and is, gasp, a game, not a trailer.
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When we get closer to the launch of the PS3, it is inevitable that the software will be shown. I'm not convinced it will be that much better than the 360 but it will at least be on par. I also doubt the authenticity of the Killzone 2 trailer as far as playable games looking that good but I expect the 360 and PS3 to be on a somewhat level playing field - it will be more about what games are available and what publishers are on board...

I just hope sony remembers the last $600 system. Anyone have a Neo Geo? Exactly. Microsoft, especially J. Allard is making asses of themselves all over the place, but once you ignore the bs, they are actually putting out a good product.
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The PS3 will not be $600.

All games with custom soundtracks and online play (at least in some form). I don't remember that annoucement at the press conference for sony. And for anyone thinking "Big deal", custom soundtracks for EA games will piss off EA, and that is a brazen move.
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I don't think EA will care - if anything they will be happy to not pay the licensing fees for all of the songs in their games if custom soundtracks catch on which means more profit for them. I don't see how this is bad for any game developer.

I personally feel that the PS3 will dominate Japan and the 360 (despite the god awful name) will win here.
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It's an uphill climb for sure. It's not like Microsoft barely came in second - they got absolutely crushed.

Remember, Xbox is better for almost every multi-platform game, but a grand total of 1 game (mercenaries) sold more xbox copies than PS2.
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So what makes you think that this will change in the upcoming generation? That is a very troubling statistic from Microsoft's view. It's like "we have the best games but no one cares."

If they can really produce games that look like that or if blu ray catches on (which I really don't think it will-too few people own HDTVs at this point), the PS3 has a chance to win. I guess we'll see. I just really don't think americans are ready to spend $500-600, or even maybe more, on a console. The fact that it blows away what their PC can do probably won't matter.
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If the PS3 becomes the least expensive way to get Blu-Ray DVDs into the home then Microsoft is in big trouble if they don't support this. The PS2 is largely responsible for popularizing DVDs - if the PS3 will play both, why settle for a lesser machine for roughly the same cost?

And the reason the PS2 crushed the Dreamcast is very simple. At release, the PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market period and the Dreamcast was cd-rom based. Millions of people in Japan and America bought it to play DVDs, they bought some games because they already had the system.
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Exactly. What makes you think this won't happen again for Blu-ray? HD sets are getting cheaper and cheaper and by 2011 when the PS4 is coming around I doubt anyone will be buying analog TVs anymore.

And for the record, Americans buy systems for those "shitty" EA sports games. MANY "gamers" own Halo, Halo 2, and 30 sports games. Sad commentary on the USA, but that's just how it is. That is changing, but very slowly.
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Do you actually believe this? EA games are not "shitty" - they may not appeal to you but they make some fantastic games. Madden looks like it is going to be great (just like every year) and I can't wait for next gen SSX, Street games, Burnout, etc. I guess I'm not hardcore...

And no, the PS3 and the 360 are no where near comparable in power. The PS3 has literally twice the core processing power with a vastly superior GPU and an ungodly large GPU-CPU pipeline. The only question is: How long will it take developers to make games that can actually benefit from that power? That right there will probably decide the winner of the next war.
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I'm guessing that it will happen about 60% into the system's lifespan - just like every other console in history. Launches are important but only the early adapters and the total dorks (i.e. us) buy at launch. Most systems are sold after it has been out for a while. If my option is to buy a PS3 or a 360 and my only concern is playing games (putting all the PS3 extras aside) why should I buy a 360? The games should (in theory) look and play worse and there aren't any exclusives (yet) that Microsoft has that would make me buy a system for. With the PS3 I should at least be certain that there will be a ton of great games available that I'll want to play (going by the PS1 and PS2)

And no, Nintendo is not a player, they haven't been since the SNES (and they lost that war in the end) and that is not going to change here. They have their niche, they will maintain their niche, and that is that.
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I'm not expecting Nintendo to "win the war" but I do expect them to offer great games at a low price and make a shitload of money in the process - I'd cal that a success.

And on a personal note, I just prefer the Xbox controllers, especially the old ones. I like the triggers and I have ever since the Saturn NIGHTS controller. The PS3 controller is based on an old PS1 third-party controller that was annoying to use and didn't sell well. The other big blow to Dreamcast was EA choosing not to develop for them. The only company that has sided with sony thus far is faction 5, and does anyone besides the most hardcore Star Wars fanboys give a crap? They will both do well (unless the PS3 is a grand or something completely stupid like that), gaming as a whole will grow (1 billion users may sound stupid, but remember, there are over 300 million gamers in china alone), and we will see enough exclusive games on all systems to keep them all alive. There will be a winner, but it will probably be like the 16-bit era. Sega actually won in the end, but Nintendo wasn't exactly hurting.
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We shall see I guess. You make some pretty good points and if you are right about the price then I think it is Sony who could be doomed before they launch. I also didn't think the Genesis won the 16-bit war but I know they were ahead for a while. I thought in the end the SNES came out on top...

I may sound like I'm totally against the 360 but I'm not - I want them to succeed and I plan on picking up the 360 (but not at launch) if they offer something that the others (Sony and Nintendo) do not. This generation I thought the same way and I have yet to buy the Xbox - I hope they change my mind next generation... :D
 
[quote name='pumbaa']No... I think Sony got 3rd party support because they took the previous generation by storm. PS1 sold amazingly well, and PS2 essentially rode that wave of success. I suspect that Microsoft will not have the upper hand when it comes to 3rd party developers... Sony is still the one to beat because of decisively "winning" this generation in all 3 important continents. Remember... Xbox may be in "2nd" in the US... but its laughable in Japan... a very important area... developer wise.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, PS2 got the most third party support because of the sales of PS1. Why wouldn't a third party be most likely to support the company that is most likely to give them the greatest exposure? For this reason, PS3 will most likely get the most 3rd party support again. Dreamcast actually launched before PS2 last time, with similar power and the promise of online play, but still was not heavily supported. The main arguments in favor of XBox this generation were without a doubt (1) better graphics/more power (2) Live is a superior online service (3) Halo. XBox 360 may not have 2/3 this time around as it won't be the "most powerful" and if Revolution and PS3 offer free online gaming, why pay for Live if the others can offer even a similar service?
 
[quote name='epobirs']I found the article to be so muddled as to lack a real point. There are certain people who freak every time a console maker speaks of trying to broaden their market by thinking it means their existing audience will be scorned. Idiocy. As if the announced intent was to reach new consumers instead of their existing ones, rather than in addition to those existing customers.

Nintendo has been making noises about casual gamers for quite a while now. Surely they're doomed. The core audience will boycott if they're forced to keep company with the lowly casual gamer.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure you got the point of the article. Its not that going after casual gamers will cause someone to fail... quite the opposite actually. Perhaps you should reread it.

What it boils down to is that looking towards the future... Microsoft has no way to expand it own market share. It doesn't have Nintendo's IP, it doesnt have the 3rd party support of Sony. All it has is a lead in launch... and there MAY be a chance that people are going to wait for the PS3 instead of picking up an Xbox. Sony's marketing machine will probably make sure that around 360's launch there is some major noise about the PS3. Microsoft wants to take the lead from Sony... from a marketing perspective its going to be pretty damn hard to make up the market share deficit that Micrsoft currently has. Without any obvious advantage to the other consoles to be release... and the early abortion of the original xbox... what exactly does the 360 have to get people who didn't buy an Xbox but had a Ps2 to swicth over the the 360?

I expect a little better from you epobirs... at least READ the damn article.
 
LIVE may still be what puts 360 on top. This time MS will have wireless network connectability out of the box. LIVE is still the service to beat, and neither Sony nor Nintendo seems to have any real plan to combat it that they have revealed. Sony still seems to plan on using the PS2 model, which was vastly inferior to LIVE.

XBOX360 can make a huge impact if they can get marquee titles out (Gears of War, Project Gotham 3, Ghost Recon 3 (once it is improved as promised), Saint's Row, Oblivion, Kameo and Perfect Dark 0) 4-6 months before the PS3 launches, the systems should fly off the shelves. Whatever backwards compatibility they have will be a plus. If they can build up a huge lead, many people will think twice about paying $300+ for a second console unless it does just have some killer apps.

As a side bar, what sense does it make to have FF XI come out? It is several years old and has been on the PS2, which has a larger fan base.
 
[quote name='Stryffe2004']
As a side bar, what sense does it make to have FF XI come out? It is several years old and has been on the PS2, which has a larger fan base.[/QUOTE]

I believe Japan is still big into the game... I have a feeling FFXI is a way to get the console noticed in Japan.
 
[quote name='Scorch']EA sports is dooming every launch with their shitty games. No one wants to play the fifteenth damn Tiger Woods game.[/QUOTE]

Who the hell played the first?
 
Heres my thoughts on the subject, I've already posted this before...

This next gen will be harder to determine a winner from the fact that both XBOX and Playstation have become household names with a good amount of brand appeal and customer loyalty. Thats something the first Xbox lacked and I think now that people own or have used an Xbox they will be more welcoming to buy an Xbox 360. Both the Playstation and Xbox brands are now household names and I could see this battle being a close draw kind of how the Genesis and SNES fought it out.

Nintendo Revolution on the other hand is kind of the wild card, I think of it more as a console that compliments other consoles in your stable. It basically fills in what other consoles lack. At least thats my point of view.
 
[quote name='Scorch']EA sports is dooming every launch with their shitty games. No one wants to play the fifteenth damn Tiger Woods game.[/QUOTE]

EA Sports does suck!...;)
 
[quote name='javeryh']Quote:

The most technologically advanced "best" system has NEVER won a console war. From the atari 5200 through to the current gen, somehow an inferior system has come out on top.



Really? Are you sure? What about the SNES or the PS1? [/QUOTE]


They were not the most powerful at the time....there were others that were more powerful and yet still lost out. Jaguar? 3D0? It all goes back to the games...
 
[quote name='mietha']... Anyone have a Neo Geo? Exactly... [/QUOTE]
Hey... I have a Neo-Geo! Best system EVAR! (paying $200-$300 a GAME though sucked) ;)
 
dear_god_make_it_stop.jpg
 
Really? Are you sure? What about the SNES or the PS1?
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Genesis was the dominant console during the 16 bit era, SNES only overtook them in the last year or two, Genesis was on top from about 89 to 94. Neo Geo was more powerful anyway.

Saturn was more powerful than PS1 but too difficult to program for (and stupidly designed). N64 was more powerful graphically, but cripped by cartridges.

The Xbox 360 seems to be as much about everything else as it is about gaming. There is a removable hard drive, it will play DVDs, it will connect to the internet, etc. (not that any of this is bad - I'm looking forward to seing how it all works).
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I'm with you, if anything, 360 will be more of a media center and less of a dedicated game box like Gamecube is.

When we get closer to the launch of the PS3, it is inevitable that the software will be shown. I'm not convinced it will be that much better than the 360 but it will at least be on par. I also doubt the authenticity of the Killzone 2 trailer as far as playable games looking that good but I expect the 360 and PS3 to be on a somewhat level playing field - it will be more about what games are available and what publishers are on board...
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I agree.

So what makes you think that this will change in the upcoming generation? That is a very troubling statistic from Microsoft's view. It's like "we have the best games but no one cares.
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That has more to do with the installed base than anything, there are a lot more PS2's out there, so the PS2 version is going to sell more.
 
[quote name='CappyCobra']It would be if it was released in it's current 'hardware' state ;)
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3141034
Sony blowing smoke indeed! :D[/QUOTE]


it's already confirmed... even the kill zone demo wasn't realtime...

I mean come on.. anything coming from sony is white lie from the truth...

remember sony claiming PSP more powerful than PS2... LoLz...
 
[quote name='pumbaa']I'm not sure you got the point of the article. Its not that going after casual gamers will cause someone to fail... quite the opposite actually. Perhaps you should reread it.

What it boils down to is that looking towards the future... Microsoft has no way to expand it own market share. It doesn't have Nintendo's IP, it doesnt have the 3rd party support of Sony. All it has is a lead in launch... and there MAY be a chance that people are going to wait for the PS3 instead of picking up an Xbox. Sony's marketing machine will probably make sure that around 360's launch there is some major noise about the PS3. Microsoft wants to take the lead from Sony... from a marketing perspective its going to be pretty damn hard to make up the market share deficit that Micrsoft currently has. Without any obvious advantage to the other consoles to be release... and the early abortion of the original xbox... what exactly does the 360 have to get people who didn't buy an Xbox but had a Ps2 to swicth over the the 360?

I expect a little better from you epobirs... at least READ the damn article.[/QUOTE]

I did read the damn article. It was meandering bullshit written by a guy who is paid to pretend he has a handle on what is going to happen when in fact it is far too early to say much of anything. He spent a lot of time restating the obvious and coming to the stunningly obvious conclusion Microsoft has to work at offering more things consumers want that the competition doesn't have.

Wow, what a friggin' revelation.

Xbox is now an established brand. That is a big change from last time around.From there it is a question of lining up more of what brought in the last batch of customers as well as those areas that were undersupported.Why do you suppose they've pursued greater support from known Japanese developers? Going from near non-existent to building a small but loyal following in Japan would fall under expanding marketshare, would it not?

Establishing a brand and having greater chance of early adoption from consumers who waited until recently to buy an Xbox plus increasing interest from consumers who had an attachment to older established brands they find no longer serve their interests, would that be a positive move?

The article is worthless. The guy is required to have an opinion when he knows there is nothing worth saying at this point. I find NPD useful for statistics of what has already occurred but rarely as a source of analysis.
 
[quote name='epobirs']I did read the damn article. It was meandering bullshit written by a guy who is paid to pretend he has a handle on what is going to happen when in fact it is far too early to say much of anything. He spent a lot of time restating the obvious and coming to the stunningly obvious conclusion Microsoft has to work at offering more things consumers want that the competition doesn't have.

Wow, what a friggin' revelation.

Xbox is now an established brand. That is a big change from last time around.From there it is a question of lining up more of what brought in the last batch of customers as well as those areas that were undersupported.Why do you suppose they've pursued greater support from known Japanese developers? Going from near non-existent to building a small but loyal following in Japan would fall under expanding marketshare, would it not?

Establishing a brand and having greater chance of early adoption from consumers who waited until recently to buy an Xbox plus increasing interest from consumers who had an attachment to older established brands they find no longer serve their interests, would that be a positive move?

The article is worthless. The guy is required to have an opinion when he knows there is nothing worth saying at this point. I find NPD useful for statistics of what has already occurred but rarely as a source of analysis.[/QUOTE]

A couple things.

Japan is a hard nut to crack... and I don't think Microsoft is prepped to do it. Sure a couple of Japanese developers is great, but its not a big enough amount to make this mythical "loyal fanbase" worth a damn. Of course the Xbox brand was non-existant... in Japan... it DIDN'T EXIST. Obviously its going to sell at least ONE damn console in Japan... marketshare is goign to expand when you start at zero. I usually don't make broadhanded statements like this, but I don't think Japanese developers are going to take a liking to the Xbox OR Microsoft anytime soon... and by extension Japanese gamers aren't going to either.

Microsoft is American... thats a disadvantage right there, we're coming from completely different cultural backround. The same way Romance Sims and Music games haven't caught on here... Microsoft's gaming strengths don't seem to match up with Japan's gaming market. Is it impossible? Not at all, but I don't think its worth the effort for Microsoft to try and understand the Japanese gaming psyche... especially coming from such a western background.

As for America... we will see if Microsofts early launch experiment is going to work. It certainly has enough money to push it through the market... but will anyone besides people who bought the 1st Xbox bite?
 
[quote name='pumbaa']A couple things.

Japan is a hard nut to crack... and I don't think Microsoft is prepped to do it. Sure a couple of Japanese developers is great, but its not a big enough amount to make this mythical "loyal fanbase" worth a damn. Of course the Xbox brand was non-existant... in Japan... it DIDN'T EXIST. Obviously its going to sell at least ONE damn console in Japan... marketshare is goign to expand when you start at zero. I usually don't make broadhanded statements like this, but I don't think Japanese developers are going to take a liking to the Xbox OR Microsoft anytime soon... and by extension Japanese gamers aren't going to either.

Microsoft is American... thats a disadvantage right there, we're coming from completely different cultural backround. The same way Romance Sims and Music games haven't caught on here... Microsoft's gaming strengths don't seem to match up with Japan's gaming market. Is it impossible? Not at all, but I don't think its worth the effort for Microsoft to try and understand the Japanese gaming psyche... especially coming from such a western background.

As for America... we will see if Microsofts early launch experiment is going to work. It certainly has enough money to push it through the market... but will anyone besides people who bought the 1st Xbox bite?[/QUOTE]
MS doesn't care if its #1 in Japan or not, they just want enough people to make it worthwhile for Japanese developers to either make games for it, or make games that were previously exclusive to PS2, multiplatform. The 2 games from Sakaguchi, the games from Okamoto and Mizuguchi, the (at least token) support from Square, and support from Tecmo, Sega, and Capcom, leave 360 in a good position to attract perhaps tens of Japanese consumers. Japanese support for 360 is already better than it was for Xbox. They won't do great, but they'll do better. They'd be happy with a close 3rd and overjoyed with 2nd.

MS also has one advantage that should bring them a few more developers.
moneybag.gif


Leaving a few of these burlap sacks of money on someones desk can be very convincing. A dump truck full of them is even better.
 
X360 is likely MS's last chance in the video game business. Many of you have pointed to MS's deep pocket, but MS didnt becomesuccessful by inevesting in unprofitable projects. Early on MS was willing to take a lost to get the xbox name across, but later on many unprofitable projects were cutted. (Look at sport games, Psychonauts, and oddworld stranger that MS gave up on)
 
Sony will not sell PS3s for a massive loss in order to match MS in a price war. Remember, most of Sony's profits come from their video game department (>60%). They can't afford to lose hundreds of dollars on every machine to match Xbox 360's price, and average consumers are not going to spend $500 on a video game system, no matter how impressive it is. I still think that Sony will win the next gen console wars, but not by much.
 
For everyone who talks about how XBox Live will put the XBox 360 ahead I have one question. Did you listen to Microsoft's E3 press conference?

1) 20 Million XBoxes worldwide
2) Microsoft projects they will have their 2 millionth XBox Live user in the near future

Thus, they are projecting that they almost have TEN PERCENT of XBox owners on XBox Live after what? 3+ years now? How does it make any sense to push XBox Live as the 360's big selling point when NINETY PERCENT of XBox owners still don't care/have broadband access?

It's been three years now, people can't keep saying "wait for this game to come out and things will change" because that's clearly not happening.
 
[quote name='sketch226']For everyone who talks about how XBox Live will put the XBox 360 ahead I have one question. Did you listen to Microsoft's E3 press conference?

1) 20 Million XBoxes worldwide
2) Microsoft projects they will have their 2 millionth XBox Live user in the near future

Thus, they are projecting that they almost have TEN PERCENT of XBox owners on XBox Live after what? 3+ years now? How does it make any sense to push XBox Live as the 360's big selling point when NINETY PERCENT of XBox owners still don't care/have broadband access?

It's been three years now, people can't keep saying "wait for this game to come out and things will change" because that's clearly not happening.[/QUOTE]

What SHOULD they be pushing then? EVERYONE knows the ONE thing Microsoft has over Sony and Nintendo is a fantastic online service. Doesn't it sort of make sense they'd want to expand on that? What would you rather them do, get rid of Xbox Live altogether? Then what would be the selling point of the 360? Because it sure wouldn't be great exclusive games or the most powerful hardware.
 
Well,........ to say it's doomed is odd.
Only because they could have had a great handle on the future, with only a minor decision change.
Not to say that their system will be anything to laugh at.

If M$ would have waited to push ports, the system would have had the greatest launch in history.

Think about Doom 3, Half Life 2, and Far Cry running in true HD, or even 1080p. OMFG,..... we'd have had to wait another year, BIG FREAKING DEAL!!! The casual Joe Gamer, wants to get a new 360 for 2 reasons,..... 1) HALO 3, and 2) EA Sports online!!!
What's going to hold them over until those franchises launch on the 360????? Games that they are unfamiliar with.

Although some of them look alright, and may be phenomenal,.... I've yet to see something that is calling me to the electronics store.

If they saved some core franchises for the launch, I think they'd have the edge in the next round. Seriously, I love Doom 3, and HL2 looks like it's right on par with that,..... but there is VERY OBVIOUS DEGRADATION, when compared to even the lower end video cards running them on PCs.

If Jade Empire was a launch title, HOLY SHEOT, that'd rock.

Unfortunately, people are only going to be thinking of those 2 before mentioned franchises/publishers, when they lay down their cash.
90% of the Joe Gamers, will preorder the system, without even having any specs. Most of these people I talk with, don't even know that the system is coming this Fall.
When the system hits, .... they're going to be like,, "can I get a copy of Halo 3 too", and the EB turd is going to laugh his ass off, and then ask them if they want to preorder it.
95% of the 90% will fully pay for the preorder on the spot!

Then,,.. they'll go home, try out one of the mediocre,.... Spartan Blood Warrior Arena Racing Challenge, titles, and then toss in their old trusty Halo 2 for what they craved. As they sit there admiring their beautiful new XBox 1.5.

Another thing is the challenge the Revolution presents.
FREE online gameplay!!!! Myself, and a handful of you guys, were fully aware of Nintendo's plan. To hold good on their promise, before giving go at the online community deal. Well, we were right!! Even if the Revolution was a total flop,.... if they could drop the cash to do this, so could M$.

Gamespy,... whether you love it or hate it,... "personally I hate it", does have years of technical expertise. I'd imagine since I've only used them to play my good ol' AVP Gold, that it was probably the game and my inferior PC that led to all the horror filled nights trying to connect, which steered me in the opposing direction.

Anyways,... with a conformed console, everyone will be on the same level. The same graphics, sound, hardware, and software. Nothing to worry about.
M$ has done everything in it's power to promote LIVE,.... and it has succeeded, (as I was totally against it, up until this past Christmas). I mean really, most everyone who has a brain can see what an experience, and value it is.

But.... what's better than value???? FREE!!!!! That's what.

So, if the Revolution can push it's online service as much as M$ did this era,... instead of promoting their backcatalog downloading service,.... I think on the online front,... we'll see a sheotload of developers jumping onboard, and a strong userbase growth.
Unfortunately, if you go to the Nintendo.com forums,... you'll see the why a non-censored community is needed.
My lord, Nintendo better not screw this up,.... I can't stand posting on the Nintendo.com forums.

I hope that M$ can procure more developers, this time around. It'd be great if all multiplatform games, came in the form of downloads, or server streams, .... and the rest of the 360's titles were all exclusive.
That'd mean, UbiSoft could release a Rayman game on their server, while saving time and money to produce a 360 ONLY verion of Prince of Persia. (I know publishers
 
[quote name='drone8888']Well,........ to say it's doomed is odd.
Only because they could have had a great handle on the future, with only a minor decision change.
Not to say that their system will be anything to laugh at.

If M$ would have waited to push ports, the system would have had the greatest launch in history.

Think about Doom 3, Half Life 2, and Far Cry running in true HD, or even 1080p. OMFG,..... we'd have had to wait another year, BIG FREAKING DEAL!!! The casual Joe Gamer, wants to get a new 360 for 2 reasons,..... 1) HALO 3, and 2) EA Sports online!!!
What's going to hold them over until those franchises launch on the 360????? Games that they are unfamiliar with.

Although some of them look alright, and may be phenomenal,.... I've yet to see something that is calling me to the electronics store.

If they saved some core franchises for the launch, I think they'd have the edge in the next round. Seriously, I love Doom 3, and HL2 looks like it's right on par with that,..... but there is VERY OBVIOUS DEGRADATION, when compared to even the lower end video cards running them on PCs.

If Jade Empire was a launch title, HOLY SHEOT, that'd rock.

Unfortunately, people are only going to be thinking of those 2 before mentioned franchises/publishers, when they lay down their cash.
90% of the Joe Gamers, will preorder the system, without even having any specs. Most of these people I talk with, don't even know that the system is coming this Fall.
When the system hits, .... they're going to be like,, "can I get a copy of Halo 3 too", and the EB turd is going to laugh his ass off, and then ask them if they want to preorder it.
95% of the 90% will fully pay for the preorder on the spot!

Then,,.. they'll go home, try out one of the mediocre,.... Spartan Blood Warrior Arena Racing Challenge, titles, and then toss in their old trusty Halo 2 for what they craved. As they sit there admiring their beautiful new XBox 1.5.

Another thing is the challenge the Revolution presents.
FREE online gameplay!!!! Myself, and a handful of you guys, were fully aware of Nintendo's plan. To hold good on their promise, before giving go at the online community deal. Well, we were right!! Even if the Revolution was a total flop,.... if they could drop the cash to do this, so could M$.

Gamespy,... whether you love it or hate it,... "personally I hate it", does have years of technical expertise. I'd imagine since I've only used them to play my good ol' AVP Gold, that it was probably the game and my inferior PC that led to all the horror filled nights trying to connect, which steered me in the opposing direction.

Anyways,... with a conformed console, everyone will be on the same level. The same graphics, sound, hardware, and software. Nothing to worry about.
M$ has done everything in it's power to promote LIVE,.... and it has succeeded, (as I was totally against it, up until this past Christmas). I mean really, most everyone who has a brain can see what an experience, and value it is.

But.... what's better than value???? FREE!!!!! That's what.

So, if the Revolution can push it's online service as much as M$ did this era,... instead of promoting their backcatalog downloading service,.... I think on the online front,... we'll see a sheotload of developers jumping onboard, and a strong userbase growth.
Unfortunately, if you go to the Nintendo.com forums,... you'll see the why a non-censored community is needed.
My lord, Nintendo better not screw this up,.... I can't stand posting on the Nintendo.com forums.

I hope that M$ can procure more developers, this time around. It'd be great if all multiplatform games, came in the form of downloads, or server streams, .... and the rest of the 360's titles were all exclusive.
That'd mean, UbiSoft could release a Rayman game on their server, while saving time and money to produce a 360 ONLY verion of Prince of Persia. (I know publishers
 
[quote name='sketch226']For everyone who talks about how XBox Live will put the XBox 360 ahead I have one question. Did you listen to Microsoft's E3 press conference?

1) 20 Million XBoxes worldwide
2) Microsoft projects they will have their 2 millionth XBox Live user in the near future

Thus, they are projecting that they almost have TEN PERCENT of XBox owners on XBox Live after what? 3+ years now? How does it make any sense to push XBox Live as the 360's big selling point when NINETY PERCENT of XBox owners still don't care/have broadband access?

It's been three years now, people can't keep saying "wait for this game to come out and things will change" because that's clearly not happening.[/QUOTE]
Xbox Live Silver is going to be free with every console. It'll have everything but the actual online play itself, except for some promotional weekends. This'll really help push Live, since everyone gets the "Live Experience" for free, out of the box.

50% of households in America have broadband. That number increases every day, and console owners are far more likely to have broadband.

It makes perfect sense for MS to push Live, it is about the only area where they are far and away superior to the competition. Its not even close. I'm very skeptical about how a free service from Sony or Nintendo could compete in this area. It can't be nearly as good, and where does the money come from to run it?

2 million subscribers is nothing to laugh at. 2 million subscribers at $49.99 a year, comes out to about 100 million dollars a year. Thats not bad for what would be considered additional revenue.


As an Xbox Live subscriber for over 2 years, I can't imagine life without it. I still play single player games, but most of my time spent playing videogames is spent playing them online.
 
First off the article is mostly a critique of MS's hype . . . the thread title is misleading!

I think you have to look at the unpredictable as always making a difference in the console wars.

The PS1 succeeded because it leveraged its early titles as being COOL . . . Twisted Metal over Mario . . . so the PS1 was seen as the thing to have. MS appears to be trying this right now.

Sony did have a year lead on MS last time but really didn't sell that many units in the first year and the software really lagged. What helped Sony jump ahead?

Grand Theft Auto 3 (also MGS2)

Without GTA 3, MS would have had a better chance.

This time around I think the graphics really have to scream "I look so much better than your old system!" I'm not sure they will at launch. This could slow the sales of all of the new machines. If Sony does launch in the spring or summer of 2006 they will be in position to complete at Xmas 2006 which is likely to be the big showdown.

The unpredictable (I don't know what it will be) is likely to make a big difference.
 
M$ is also failing to see the whole money flow picture.

These consoles are geared towards the teen-adult crowd. They're not for kids anymore, if they ever were.

Releasing a console at and before Christmas just isn't intelligent.
I know that the only reason I picked up a PSP, besides the fact that I was leaving the country,... was because I had the money.
For us 20-something-ers, TAX RETURN TIME is the most vulnerable, and you know it.

I mean I really tried saving money last year for the DDD sale,... and by that time hit,... I had only enough for about 40 movies,... whereas I had enough to finish all of my boxsets off, but I couldn't wait. I HAD to have a new tv,.... and the cash was there.

I think Sony is the only company that sees this. Unless Nintendo follows suit.
If the Revolution hits before the holidays,.... I'll have to second guess their new "ATTITUDE".
I can see launching the GBMicro,... as there are about a billion people who would LOVE one of those things, around the holidays, but not a new "SOPHISTICATED" console.
I mean,... GBMicros will more than likely outsell every and any other platform of all time. I'm guessing that, because I guarantee, they'll be around $40-50.

They can be bought as stocking stuffers for kids, parents, and friends, without the worries of $$$. It makes them highly desirable, because adults can download the games on the internet, where most of us spend our time.

Remember that WarpPipe survey at their site??
The one asking if we, the consumer, would purchase an adapter to play all of our older games on a new console???
Well I do. I'm thinking that we'll have a fresh Bluetooth enabled cartridge ripper, to upload our owned games right to the Revolution.

Hopefully we won't have to pay again.

Back to the GBMicro.
I think Nintendo will find a way to make sure we own a Revolution, to take FULL advantage of it.
Special additions to old games, via wireless updates.
Imagine more boxers in PunchOut, or a new Legend of Zelda side quest, to account for the time in between that and Link's Adventure.

People will pay to see extra stuff, in old games, ... and if through the Revolution is the only way,... I forsee it taking off.

M$ is going to have a rough time if it's graphics aren't top notch at launch. There better be a game that rivals that Killzone demo. If not,... it may be worth waiting for the other 2 consoles to come out. Just to see if $ony introduces a fully committed online realm.
If that happened, M$ would probably fade away, until Halo 3 hits,.... which is what might actually happen, although I hope not,.... except for the price cuts. ;)

If $ony doesn't ante up with a similair online agenda, then I think M$ will propose quite a formidable threat to their casual audience.
Even though I can strongly feel my stomach turning in disgust, thinking about how $ony is the only manufacturer who went foward in MANY respects, (so far, NINTENDO??)

I mean, the "CELL", "BLURAY", HDD, wireless, full HDTV support, and the rest...... OMG!!!
You'll see,... having the entire Star Trek the Next Generation on 2-4 discs, for $100 is unreal,.... looking at $1000 worth of seasons,... in maybe, 480p,... whereas BluRay will be up to full HD!!!!!
Then I think about the Final Fantasy demo,.... not too shabby.
Then I think about the KillZone demo,.... I CRAP my pants!

Nintendo,... don't make me buy a PS3 first.
M$,.... don't, just do something drastic, and up the innovation about 10 times over.
$ony,.... toss your boomerang into the world, and hope it doesn't come back,... like the million DRE'd units.

:)
 
Releasing a console at and before Christmas just isn't intelligent.
I know that the only reason I picked up a PSP, besides the fact that I was leaving the country,... was because I had the money.
For us 20-something-ers, TAX RETURN TIME is the most vulnerable, and you know it.
Click to expand...

nope. Just on the basis that it's a new game console, the thing is gonna be gone around christmas. even if it were a piece of poo labelled "360" people would want one, just to have it. Just like the DS sold out last year and Just like the PSP would have if it wasn't launched in the Spring. Xmas isn't just for kiddies...but tax time is just for adults...

I mean, the "CELL", "BLURAY", HDD, wireless, full HDTV support, and the rest...... OMG!!!
You'll see,... having the entire Star Trek the Next Generation on 2-4 discs, for $100 is unreal,.... looking at $1000 worth of seasons,
Click to expand...

50 gig media isn't going to cost the same as a DVD...and the labor of putting all that material on a piece of media won't be any cheaper or less time consuming.
Eventually, it may end up a little cheaper as they become more widely accepted, but that's a very long time from now. The TV on DVD craze has a while before it peaks out and they will milk it for all it's worth.

whereas BluRay will be up to full HD!!!!!
Then I think about the Final Fantasy demo,.... not too shabby.
Then I think about the KillZone demo,.... I CRAP my pant
Click to expand...

Render'd. Nobody knows if the system specs will actually live up to those demos. They sure as hell didn't with the PS2. I'd be surprized if anyone could tell the difference between a blu-ray disc on an HDTV and a DVD on an HDTV.


Not trying to put you off of the PS3-- just saying there really aren't any facts in about it yet.

The casual Joe Gamer, wants to get a new 360 for 2 reasons,..... 1) HALO 3, and 2) EA Sports online!!!
What's going to hold them over until those franchises launch on the 360????? Games that they are unfamiliar with.
Click to expand...

I don't think people are THAT xenophobic. Perfect Dark Zero and Gears of War will win over the Halo people easily enough. Even DoA 3 sold xboxes, strange as that may seem. Though, no doubt there are some folks who are obsessed with only Halo. we call them h-tards


Lastly, I hope this is the last "system war" post I ever get sucked into--
NONE OF THEM ARE GOING TO FAIL OR GET "KNOCKED OUT"!!!!!1111
THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT THINGS GOING FOR THEM THAT APPEAL TO DIFFERENT LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

yargh
 
Well,.... I've seen true HD sources into a true HD set, and it is VERY noticeable.

If HalfLife 2 can look as good as it does on a suped up PC and a 32in HD monitor, then it will be done,... and possibly done better, with large HD sets and more capable hardware.

I'm not saying that the holidays are not awesome times for sales,... but we adults are the primary purchaser. How many parents, who may have JUST bought their kid/s an XBox, are willing to lay down $400-500 on another system??

Maybe things have changed. Although, when I was growing up, $100 was our big gift, and the rest of the stuff was clothes items, like underwear and pajamas.
Even at 15, $100 was the limit. I got my first tv. An open box, RCA, 19in tube. It was missing the remote,... and was all scratched up.

Well,... enough of the whining.

I PERSONALLY, don't know any parent who would drop that kind of cash on their kid, when they already have a system/s. I find that when talking to my adult coworkers and friends,... they all seem to be getting the systems for themselves, and are even debating whether or not it'll be do-able.
They are saying they want to wait to see how much of a return they'll have.

Perhaps it's just my neck of the woods.?.?.?

Also,... the CELL is quite capable of producing those graphics in real time. It is only up to the developers, to understand and exploit the technology. IBM has been demo-ing the chip, and it will be used for advanced applications scientifically, and technically, amongst other things.
It's just being advertised in the PS3. I think $ony will pull through this time around.

Remember the Rebirth video demo for the GameCube?? Well,... look at RE4. It blended real time with video, just like it was previewed years before. It just took a competent, and willing entity to create it. The power was always there.

As for the BluRay discs,.... it shouldn't take as long to exact the art. When using a clean/original transfer, on a standard disc,... I'd imagine they'd have to format it ridiculously before actually having a similar picture,... then, with the limited disc space, they have to fill in the blanks, that the formatting has revealed.

With the Faroudja chip, they were basically doing advanced preemptive calculations, on where to render and shade pixels to mimic what the viewer would like to see. Giving a false 720p picture, when it was only a 480p source.
That's not HD either.

The prices won't be astronomical either. I'm thinking that they'll be on par with first generation DVD prices. From $30-40 a movie. Then, after 25% of the world has a player in their grasp, the prices will fall to what we are currently paying for DVDs. I'd give it 3 to 4 years.
Remember,... this isn't a new format for most people. DVD players are cheap enough that everyone in America probably owns 3-4. When DVD first hit, the players were $500+, and even though people saw the dramatic difference, they just couldn't see laying down the money.

Mostly because they already owned hundreds of VHS tapes, and secondly, because there weren't many movies available on the medium.
Today, disc media is widely available, and facilities are only running at minimal capacity. With the revenues of the movies and media, the industry will most certainly go right for the throats.

We aren't the same crowd, that went from VHS to DVD. We are tech saavy, and highly aggressive. We don't just sit around like our parents did, and wait for the FCC to regulate sheot. We motivate them to make haste. As for the 40 something consumer,... there is now an understanding about the disc medium.
Going from disc to disc isn't confusing, and that makes them feel confident in dropping a nice chunk of cash on an upgrade.

Especially when it's backwards compatible.

They see the quality,.. they assess the situation, and make an intelligent choice. They can't go wrong, and gloat in their success. They now have helped drop the overall price of the players, by a nominal percentage. As they are also financially stable, and make up a third of the, race we are human.

DVD freaks,... that's us, the majority, the 20-30 something-ers,.... live for this stuff. We will drive the prices down, if not to counter it in BluRay movie sales. Thems the breaks. Do we care??? No!... HELL NO!!! We wait in the shadows of our collections, anticipating the moment new tech hits.
Then we pounce.

Come on.
You can't tell me that you haven't heard how (MORE)rich these bastards have become off of our impulsive, nostalgic, insane purchasing rituals. Why do you think they can have these massive sales?? Why do you think CAG exists???

Revolution in 05!! ;)
 
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